he got 250 wins,

got Jewelry

been clutch all of his career

and a proven winner.

plays for the best team in Baseball period.

no bias here just asking a question

Poll question: does Andy Pettitte get in the Hall of fame?

Poll result (17 votes) yes (5 votes) Vote no (12 votes) Vote yankee Hof and only a Yankee fan would ask this question (0 votes) Vote

then why would he get in?

and if we are to go there, then white players who are in the Hall before 1947 before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier outta be booted out as well i see you Ty Cobb.

Andy if you have been playing close attention is real low key and he ain't brought alot of heat on himself so the way he is playing his deck of cards might lend him another view in Cooperstown?

he got a chance.

congrats to him for hiring a competent PR team but if they're gonna blackball others then petite should be no different

and its been pretty much forgotten because he keeps a low profile.

i mean Bonds, Clemons could have played a few more years.

Sosa was done pretty much.


Big Mac hard to say.

however Andy still out there pitching and winning and it makes for a good question especially if he can pitch for another 3-4 years and get to 300 then what? and Andy is a winner and keeps to himself and a clutch Money Pitcher.

>and its been pretty much forgotten because he keeps a low
>profile.

the other hot shots of his era should have followed suit

That was the thing, he got out in front of the story. He came out and said that he only used PEDs to come back from injuries faster, not to gain an edge against batters.

He also ratted on Clemens.

i know its cause expanded playoffs, but still. its tough.

Outside of 96-97, and 2005, I see him as just a solid guy that would go out and give you 30+ starts and 200+ innings.

That being said, I could see him getting the Jack Morris crowd's support. Both were durable guys who racked up a lot of wins for good teams and pitched a lot in the post season. I'm sure there will be some weird stats coming out to support how much of a gamer Pettitte was in seven or eight years.

I think he'll get in though. The Jack Morris comp is sadly apt, except with a delightful Yankee twist.

they let your guy, even though anyone saying they'd rather have him on the mound then Jack Morris when the chips were down & the season was on the line needs their head examined.

Is it okay if I want him on the mound then?

http://splicd.com/csDM1MQ7Wt8/07/20

Well done.

But I don't feel the HOF vibe from him, the dominance and pop I think every HOF'er should have.

I'd put him at like 40/60.

But that combined with Yankee = Hall of Fame.

the PED thing will knock his ass off the fence.

people just dont remember andy pettite that fondly. the yankee mystique hasn't really influenced voters much in recent years. they rejected mattingly summarily, for example.

How many times was he even an All Star? A couple?

Being above-average to good for a long time is not hall of fame material to me.

I'd rather see Hershiser get in. Someone with good longevity and career numbers, but not quite as good as Pettite.....but with a much higher peak.

And I know he won't, but even someone like Gooden, who was actually the best for a short time.

Mike Mussina, however, I would vote for.

CIA hit it on the head above.

http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2013/06/andy-pettitte-and-van-doren-gene.html

Thursday, June 13, 2013

Andy Pettitte and the Van Doren Gene
There’s a great line in the movie Quiz Show … well, there are a lot of great lines in Quiz Show, but the one I think of now is when investigator Dick Goodwin delivers a subpoena to the fraudulent but thoroughly likable Charles Van Doren. Goodwin has figured out that Van Doren, who had gained nationwide fame as a quiz show contestant on Twenty One, was given the answers in advance. He had also wanted to keep Van Doren out of the investigation, in part because he liked Van Doren. Then Van Doren double-crossed him, pleaded his innocence publicly, and Goodwin had no choice but to bring out the subpoena.

“I can’t decide if you think too much of me or too little,” Van Doren says.

“Charlie,” Goodwin says, “I want to think the best of you. Everybody does.”


There are some people in life -- in sports, in entertainment, in politics, in your personal world -- who just fit that line. Sometimes they are called “Teflon,” as if bad things just slip off them, but I don’t think that’s quite the image I see. It’s a deeper thing with some people -- they have this certain kind of charisma that inspires other to think the best of them. We give them the benefit of the doubt. We emphasize their virtues and overlook their deficiencies. We see in them what we want to see.

This, I think, was what made the Bert Blyleven-Jack Morris Hall of Fame discussion so interesting. The statistics made it abundantly clear that Blyleven was not just a better pitcher than Morris but light years better. But Blyleven just doesn’t have the Van Doren Gene … and Morris does. And so the debate over which pitcher was better raged on; in some quarters it rages on still. People don’t just see Morris as a Hall of Famer. They WANT to see Morris as a Hall of Famer.

So Morris’ unassuming 3.90 ERA, which would normally be a Hall of Fame disqualifier (no pitcher with that high an ERA is in the Hall) has been sheltered inside a “Runs did not matter to Morris, winning did” blanket. His lack of a Cy Young Award -- which was used to bludgeon Blyleven repeatedly, not to mention Tommy John and Jim Kaat and Luis Tiant and numerous others -- was refashioned as an admirable “individual awards never meant anything to Morris” quality. His 1.78 strikeout to walk ratio -- which is 161st among pitchers with 2,000-plus innings -- has been buried well below his 175 complete games and the number of Opening Days he started and his Game 7 performance in the 1991 World Series and other cheerier topics.

I’m not arguing Morris here -- done that enough already -- but merely making the point that people want to think the best of him … and if hey did not he would have gotten 3.1% of the ballot first time out and disappeared from the ballot and the conversation. Instead, he might get inducted into the Hall of Fame next year.

Andy Pettitte, it seems to me, has the Van Doren Gene. He might have two of them.

Pettitte won his 250th game the other day -- a fine achievement, even for those of us who have no use for the pitcher win statistic -- and so the Hall of Fame discussion cranked up again. That’s natural. But I will say that Mike Mussina was a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte and I haven’t heard one-tenth the Hall of Fame conversation about him. Maybe people are having those Mussina arguments and I’m just not hearing them. I think David Cone was also a better pitcher than Pettitte, and he got 21 votes before falling off the ballot. I think Curt Schilling was a much better pitcher than Pettitte, and he got a disappointing 38.8% of the ballot his first year.

But that’s the thing about Pettitte. You want to think the best of him. Everybody does. It comes up again and again. For instance, you have undoubtedly heard over and over that Andy Pettitte is a great postseason pitcher. The reputation is so entrenched that when some people see Pettitte’s name it is literally the first thing they think. The reputation is that when October comes around, Andy Pettitte transforms himself from good pitcher into Grittyman -- he turns up the craftiness knob, takes a few gutsy pills, does some gamer calisthenics and pitches above himself.

So, it’s quite a shock when the statistics show that Andy Pettitte is EXACTLY the same pitcher in the postseason that he is in the regular season. I mean, considering the math, it’s almost impossible for these numbers to be closer.

Pettitte during season: .633 win pct., 3.85 ERA, 2.37 strikeout to walk.

Pettitte during postseason: .633 win pct. 3.81 ERA, 2.41 strikeout to walk.

We want to think the best of him. Everybody does. People seem to see Pettitte as a generally honest and minor character in baseball’s PED scandal. Ask a moderate baseball fan who was named in the Mitchell Report -- Sammy Sosa or Andy Pettitte? I’m thinking most will say Sosa, which is the wrong answer. Ask any baseball fan which pitcher denied using HGH, admitted using only twice but never more, admitted later than he actually used it another time, and I suspect Pettitte will not be the first guess.

And then there’s the Hall of Fame. Pettitte certainly has a Hall of Fame case. He has pitched almost 3,200 innings with a 117 ERA+, which is pretty strong. He has had a couple of superior years -- in 1997, for instance, he was brilliant (18-7, 2.88 ERA, just 7 homers allowed, 8.4 WAR). He was almost as good in 2005 in Houston. He also has thrown more postseason innings than any pitcher ever, which is a tribute to his durability, his consistency and the good fortune of playing for many good teams. It’s an interesting Hall of Fame case.

But, here’s the thing: There are numerous pitchers who are not in the Hall of Fame, who probably won’t ever go to the Hall of Fame, who were better pitchers than Andy Pettitte. I don’t see how you can look at Kevin Brown and Andy Pettitte and determine that Pettitte was the better pitcher. They threw almost the exact same number of innings, Brown’s ERA is more than a half run better, he had fewer walks, more strikeouts and allowed many fewer home runs. Brown threw 17 shutouts. Pettitte -- and this is pretty astonishing -- threw four. You can throw around intangibles if you like, sprinkle in some potstseason spice, but Brown was simply a better pitcher than Pettitte. And he dropped off the ballot after one year.

I think David Cone was a better pitcher than Pettitte. He threw about 300 fewer innings, but he too had a lower ERA, better overall numbers, and he had a better peak -- he did win a deserved Cy Young Award and should have been in the running two or three other times. He also had some postseason heroics.

Then there are quite a few other guys … like Ron Guidry and Bill Pierce and Dave Stieb and Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel and Tommy John and Jim Kaat who are similar to Pettitte in various ways but have been judged as non-Hall of Famers. Yes, there are also Hall of Famers who have had somewhat similar careers to Pettitte -- Eppa Rixey, Ted Lyons, and so on. But I don’t that you would be want to pin a Hall of Fame case around those comps.

In any case, we won’t actually need to talk about Pettitte’s Hall of Fame for at least five years, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he becomes the next Jack Morris -- someone who will spark significant arguments every year. There are just certain people like that.

>But, here’s the thing: There are numerous pitchers who are not
>in the Hall of Fame, who probably won’t ever go to the Hall of
>Fame, who were better pitchers than Andy Pettitte. I don’t see
>how you can look at Kevin Brown and Andy Pettitte and
>determine that Pettitte was the better pitcher. They threw
>almost the exact same number of innings, Brown’s ERA is more
>than a half run better, he had fewer walks, more strikeouts
>and allowed many fewer home runs. Brown threw 17 shutouts.
>Pettitte -- and this is pretty astonishing -- threw four. You
>can throw around intangibles if you like, sprinkle in some
>potstseason spice, but Brown was simply a better pitcher than
>Pettitte. And he dropped off the ballot after one year.

i know this is correct about brown, but this doesnt seem right. it feels like like brown was always injured (outside of the 4-5 year stretch with the marlins, padres, and dodgers), but i guess it was more so towards the end that his back started acting up. taking a look some bball ref, he really had a better career than my mind remembers.

Kevin Brown's ERA went down big time when he left Texas to go to the NL... ballooned up at the end again back in the AL (with the yanks)

>>But, here’s the thing: There are numerous pitchers who are
>not
>>in the Hall of Fame, who probably won’t ever go to the Hall
>of
>>Fame, who were better pitchers than Andy Pettitte. I don’t
>see
>>how you can look at Kevin Brown and Andy Pettitte and
>>determine that Pettitte was the better pitcher. They threw
>>almost the exact same number of innings, Brown’s ERA is more
>>than a half run better, he had fewer walks, more strikeouts
>>and allowed many fewer home runs. Brown threw 17 shutouts.
>>Pettitte -- and this is pretty astonishing -- threw four.
>You
>>can throw around intangibles if you like, sprinkle in some
>>potstseason spice, but Brown was simply a better pitcher
>than
>>Pettitte. And he dropped off the ballot after one year.
>
>i know this is correct about brown, but this doesnt seem
>right. it feels like like brown was always injured (outside of
>the 4-5 year stretch with the marlins, padres, and dodgers),
>but i guess it was more so towards the end that his back
>started acting up. taking a look some bball ref, he really had
>a better career than my mind remembers.

That's ... shit. I don't have the energy to be sarcastic about that.

Obviously, I'm either misunderstanding your point here or it was just completely not very good.

He debut'd in 1986. The Al East wasn't THE AL EAST for most of his completely-awesome-and-better-than-Andy-Pettitte's-in-every-single-respect-which-remotely-matters career. And after it became that, you're risking excluding anybody who pitched in the National League for like a decade and a half. That he turned out to be shitty in the AL when he returned for the twilight of his career really says a lot more about pitching in professional baseball at that age than it does about his competition.

off, which a lot of pitchers do... Not even trying to argue for Pettitte just pointing out something obvious

>i know this is correct about brown, but this doesnt seem
>right.

He pitched really well for some smaller market clubs and he certainly didn't make up for lack of exposure with a sunny personality. He also got weirdly shafted on even downballot Cy Young mentions. Look at his 1997 season. Didn't make the top five.

I had to take a "holy shit" kind of stroll through his BBRef page too before I remember how good he was. Something to keep in mind next time somebody says that a player "doesn't feel like a Hall of Famer". Because our feelings are often pretty stupid.

Shit I mean Jack McDowell's peak was better than Andy Pettite's probably. I'd have to take another look, those were early-ish years for me.

Brown was dominant for a while there. I think being a bit of a journeyman and also being an asshole are his main impediments to standing out among a not-so-crowded bunch with his numbers.

HOF tends to be a little more lenient to pitchers on that line, as opposed to position players. Couple that with the team he played for, his "dominant years," stats. Yeah, he makes it.


"Your current frequencies of understanding outweigh that which has been given for you to understand." Saul Williams