Please discuss. Preferably in a manner where thine anger is kept
to a minimum.

Sincerely-

Da Orbsta

PS: Coffee at cigar bars is pretty good. I'm on that dark roast and a
short Hammer & Sickle cigar. Nice way to breath some life into a
gloomy Saturday.

PPS: I'm down to the last bit of cilantro paste. Sunday's guac
will have real cilantro.

Poll question: How badly do you take Serena Williams for granted?

Poll result (32 votes) Bad: I only think she's the best female athlete ever (0 votes) Vote Really bad: I only think she's the the best women tennis player ever (1 votes) Vote Disgraceful: I only think she's the most transcendent female athlete of our generation (19 votes) Vote A little: She's actually a god(ess) (8 votes) Vote I'm white (4 votes) Vote

You can argue stats just b/c she is still 5 majors behind Graf and 7 behind the overall lead for women, but I have no doubt if she played Graf in her prime she would win.

Arguing athletes across any sport is always a fools argument, just too hard to compare fairly but she is on a very short list of most dominating female athletes.

it's really tough to compare across eras, I'd say they're about at the same level

Serena's serve is probably better, and her backhand is definitely better, but Steffi's forehand was a transcendent shot that nobody could really handle. I would bet on Steffi on clay, on Serena on hard court, and it'd be 50/50 at Wimbledon (with grass being the way it is now...on 80s/early 90s grass, Serena would likely dominate her thanks to her serve).

Serena is definitely top 3, maybe GOAT (it's between her, Navratilova and Graf)

She is the best

as any women's tennis player ever, ever IMO.

i'm in awe because Venus on the surface had more versatility and yet Serina on power still dominates and still colects trophys and she controls her own fate.

shes reached that transcendent level like MJ, lebron (pre scandal) tiger where people only wanna talk about her when she loses.

Personally its her or steffi for GOAT. Evert and nav couldn't step to her in this era where slice tennis isn't as effective as it was 10-20 years ago.

>Personally its her or steffi for GOAT. Evert and nav couldn't
>step to her in this era where slice tennis isn't as effective
>as it was 10-20 years ago.

considering Evert never sliced anything, and Steffi was slicing her backhand about 90% of the time. With that said...I'd say Evert would not stand a chance, Navratilova would be hampered by not being able to server & volley as much but I think she was good enough to adjust.

Ima throw some chicken on the Foreman

With some Broccoli, I think (haven't had anything green today,
been eating chips and hummus all day)


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Had a veggie pizza for a late lunch, greek yogurt with granola and blueberries right now.

Good for you

I don't eat poorly, just too many chips and fucking hummus

No more guac, by the way

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Only time I eat like shit is when I leave town and visit friends.

I eat some processed food of course, but I very rarely get fast food.

Bomb ass veggie pizza = whole wheat thin crust, spinach, bell pepper, red onion, broccoli, jalapeno optional.

>Bomb ass veggie pizza = whole wheat thin crust, spinach, bell
>pepper, red onion, broccoli, jalapeno optional.

GOAT...Even Johnny Mac thinks so....

That cilantro paste shit is worse than Pol Pot and AIDS combined
____________________

Behold my works,ye mighty

>That cilantro paste shit is worse than Pol Pot and AIDS
>combined
>____________________
>
>Behold my works,ye mighty

I'm sprinting to the toilet to shit some of this spicy hummus,
I can't take this

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

and the answer is very

>and the answer is very

We been peace since Clarrett stopped bodyguarding for Aaron
Hernandez


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Went to see her in the semis and saw her and Venus in doubles Friday.
Just to say I saw that greatness in person was.......amazing

Most of her competition retired

hingis
capriati
Henin.

They gave her fits and beat her several times

record against hingis: 7-6

record against capriati: 10-7

record against henin: 8-6...but henin dominated serena on clay and at the french: 4-1 henin. Unfortunately, she had to retire because of injury but she had serena's number.


Those players had strength, speed and endurance, so they were able to compete against serena.....Serena is going on 32 which is old as hell for a tennis player. She is out of here prime and destroying all comers.

Today's players don't have the strength to deal with serena ..but sloan is coming on strong


When they were playing serena didn't dominate every tournament, but now, with no competition, she's killing everyone and everything ....she's playing in a very weak, weak era

she is still dominating almost ten years after she stopped battling those other women you mentioned and that says she is the best.

she outlived her peers and now is whipping up on younger chicks which ain't the norm

hingis retired due to injury and so did henin

again she was 7-6 against hingis, and hingis like serena is about 32 ...

Henin owned serena in grand slam matches: 4-3, and on clay: 4-1..Henin dominated ALL of 2007..HENIN constantly broke serena's serve ...constantly


Henin announced her immediate retirement from professional tennis on 14 May 2008, and requested the Women's Tennis Association to remove her name from the rankings immediately. Her announcement was a surprise because Henin was still ranked World No. 1 and was considered the favorite for the 2008 French Open, where she would have been the 3-time defending champion. She said she felt no sadness about her retirement because she believed it was a release from a game she had focused on for twenty years. She also said that in the future, she would be concentrating on charity and her tennis school.


if henin did not have a serious knee injury, henin would still be playing, and serena would not be dominating ..Henin's short stocky body gave her a low center of gravity so she was able to stick to the ground with so much power, and cover the entire court better than serena. ..it made her extremely agile and athletic.


Serena is an all time great, but her competitors( true competition) retired due to injury

not one single player in this era has the power to deal with serena like henin, capriati and hingis.

Henin is Serena's seles.

>Henin's short
>stocky body gave her a low center of gravity so she was able
>to stick to the ground with so much power,

What in the hell?

Henin was an all-time great, yes, but her height was WAY more of a detriment to her game than it was beneficial. There is literally no benefit to being short in tennis.

She had the best one-handed backhand of all time, alot of pop on the forehand, good fitness, and a killer instinct. And Serena still had a winning record against her.

Yes, for sure. Her technique was great, but her height helped her with balance while moving, allow her to maximize her speed and footwork.


"A shorter height will also increase a lower centre of gravity giving a player better balance."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_in_sports

Henin's speed, and ability to cover the court extremely well gave her and advantage over serena...but it also put a lot of pressure on her knees.. Henin was way more quicker than serena, especially on clay where she dominated serena....similar to how nadal is on clay.

Your argument is that her level of comp is weak because she outlasted the other great players of her era? Even though she had winning records against all of them? Even though she dealt with injuries herself?

Wow...

You say she struggled mightily against those women, then posted winning records against all of them.

It's not Serena's fault she doesn't have any competition right now. She can only bitchslap whoever is on the court with her.

Federer is the undisputed GOAT as of right now, yet his record against Nadal is poo poo.

>It's not Serena's fault she doesn't have any competition right
>now. She can only bitchslap whoever is on the court with
>her.

Right? Like what's she supposed to do, not win?? Tank every now & then? Or dominate like she's capable of doing?

There have been plenty of players with the skills & talent to dominate the game (Marat Safin comes to mind), but whether they have the will & work ethic to do so is another thing. Serena doesn't just roll out of bed and decide that she's going to win, she works HARD to improve her game and to be the best player she can be. This is the case for all top athletes. You can have all the natural talent in the world, but if you don't work hard at your craft, you won't be able to stay at the top for long. You'll also have to have the hunger & motivation to keep winning.

I'm not even a fan of Serena like that, but if you can't appreciate what she's doing right now, then you're truly clueless and is really taking her for granted.

Im not discrediting her. It's just that she was not dominating when they were playing, because they were winning tourneys too....especially henin.

She couldn't walk through them.

Serena's great, but today's era is just weak sauce

Plus Venus came down with an immune disorder, so should could no longer compete at a top level.

see #24

first her era was overated'
then she didnt dominate because others were winning
her sister was number 2 as recent as 2010
im really dumbfounded in your logic

She was #1 in 2002 and is #1 in 2013. At some point in that 11 years someone good came along right?

Where are they currently if not better than her yet?

I agree with this.

and monica absolutely DOMINATED that chick.

I wouldn't say graf is overrated, because to me no one is touching her baseline game or forehand, and she won more titles than anyone ...and no one played graceful, pure tennis like graf ...her game was like ken griffey swing.


But I think Seles was the total package of anyone I have ever seen.



This is why there isn't a true greatest of all time

graf had seles
serena had henin

etc, etc, etc, ....

they all have their faults and pluses.


But this era of women's tennis is weak as shit....no true power players with all around ability.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I won't say Graf is overrated....But yeah...Monica getting stabbed was HUGE in the big scheme of things...

argument against mayweather, jordan and lots of other dominant athletes in their sport. they dont choose what era they play in or who they play, they just win. if you're looking for someone better, you're still looking at the best of the best. that really is not a convincing way to take something away from someone.

She is not the best of the best...She one of the best.

Being best of the best is dominating on all surfaces, which she did not do..

You're not best of the best when a player masters you in a grand slam and in all grand slam matches.

Again, serena is ONE of the greatest. But if henin does not retire due to a knee injury -- BEING NUMBER 1 AT THE TIME OF HER RETIREMENT- serena
would not be the only dominant women's player, especially on CLAY.

jordan never lost a final....mayweather never lost...not the same thing , fam, not even close. .

And Graf's rise was due to a STABBING

Serena's, according to you, was because of Henin's
knee injury (not true...and you keep pointing to
2007...Serena wasn't NEAR her prime then, fuck
you talking about)

You're IGNORING that Serena CAME BACK FROM INJURIES
HERSELF, which is part of the legend

And she improved on multiple surfaces

There is an increasingly shut-the-door case for her
as the GOAT, given those

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

http://www.oregonlive.com/the-spin-of-the-ball/index.ssf/2013/07/why_serena_williams_will_have.html

Serena Williams, at 31, is the best player on the WTA tour by far. She's won 16 major singles titles. Her biggest "rivals" at the moment, Victoria Azarenka and Maria Sharapova, have a combined 3-25 record against her. It has become conventional wisdom that she is the best woman to ever pick up a fuzzy yellow ball.

But is it so cut and dried?

The case can be made for Serena as the best ever, and it has been, but it's actually still a rather tough sell.

In 2003, when the American had the "Serena Slam" in her pocket and was going for the real Grand Slam, the diminutive Justine Henin beat her at the French Open. That match is best remembered for Henin's questionable sportsmanship when she refused to acknowledge that she had disrupted Serena's service motion by raising her hand. But it's difficult to argue that Serena would have won if only Henin had admitted to her etiquette transgression. The fact is, Serena was at her very best -- and it wasn't enough to beat Henin. The little Belgian would prove four years later that she didn't need gamesmanship to be the best in the game. In 2007, she topped Serena in succession at the French Open, Wimbledon and the U.S. Open, slamming the door shut -- or so we thought at the time -- on the Serena era.


HENIN HAD HER FUCKING NUMBER WHEN SERENA WAS AT HER BEST AND IN HER PRIME....Serena was not the all out favorite when henin was playing, and in those years serena in her PRIME had issues and that was when the media was getting in her ass.....

Are y'all smiling as widely as I am right now?

This is COMEDY, fam.

Yes.

because henin dominated serena on clay and fast courts, posting a 4-1 edge in french open battles, and 4-3 edge in grand slam battles. Serena owns the overall record between the two: 8-6

Henin was force to retire due to a knee injury, and at the time she was the number 1 player in the world.

She totally dominated serena in a full tennis season while serena was dead in the middle of her prime, with no injuries.

So yes, we are talking about henin..WHO WAS THE FASTER PLAYER

Serena won the Aussie that year UNSEEDED and was the
8 seed at the US Open when she lost

She was fat and out of shape the entire year....and
STILL WON the Aussie

Fuck you talking about?



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

You do realize that prime age for a tennis player is 24-28, because once they get closer to 30 is when a tennis player's game starts to fall off.

guess what henin is also 31, same age as serena.

guess what serena was dominating everything BEFORE henin came and was the greatest women's tennis player in the world...and then 2007 happend, and serena got shut down in the french, wimbeldon, and the us open.

also grand slam matches - henin....fastcourts - henin french open -henin.

henin was the faster player, and she came and snatched Serena's number one crown!

that never happened to jordan or mayweather...

but then henin retired due to a knee injury, while she was number 1 in the world!!...


stop.

>You do realize that prime age for a tennis player is 24-28,
>because once they get closer to 30 is when a tennis player's
>game starts to fall off.

You are imposing a "women peak at this age" idea here

Bwahhahaha Serena is REWRITING the peak age of tennis
dominance

SERENA WAS HURT, COMING OFF DEPRESSION AND WAS COMPLETELY
OUT OF SHAPE THE ENTIRE YEAR!!!

That's why she was UNRANKED DURING THE AUSSIE and was an
8-seed during the US OPEN!!! She was a SHADOW of her f
former self!!!

That she WON THE FUCKING AUSSIE THAT YEAR when she was
OPENLY AND ADMITTEDLY FAT is WHY PEOPLE SAY SHE'S THE
GOAT!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


>guess what henin is also 31, same age as serena.


>also grand slam matches - henin....fastcourts - henin
>french open -henin.
>
>henin was the faster player, and she came and snatched
>Serena's number one crown!

BWHAHAHAHAH SERENA was BARELY TOP 10 in 2007, idiot

She was depressed and LITERALLY working herself back
into shape

You literally just made shit up out of thin air


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

if you're going to use the excuse that serena was coming off of depression, etc

what about henin coming back from a cracked patella, which happened in 2005!!

Dude.henin sent serena packing three straight majors back to back to back, bro

and went into the following year as the number 1 player....but then knee never fully healed, so she had to retire

chick was was playing on a freaking wobbly kneecap while destroying the tennis world.

I mean, dude, serena is one of the greatest, but henin had a number big time...just like seles had steffi's number.


I'm not discrediting serena's greatness....the part of being a great player is dealing with injuries, pressure, etc.....but that excuse is only valid for serena?

come on, man

What if Henin didn't get hurt
What if Serena had better comp
You have not disputed anything at this point.

http://soundcloud.com/djshinobishaw
http://www.rareformnyc.com
http://twitter.com/DJShinobiShaw
https://twitter.com/RareFormNYC
PSN: ShinobiShaw

"Arm Leg Leg Arm How you doin?" (c)T510

definitely be used for henin regarding serena.

The argument isn't that serena isn't great. She is, but she is not the greatest of all time, and not even close.

1. She never won the grand slam, or dominated an entire year.

2. She is having a better run now than she did in her prime. In her prime, the competition was a lot better and she was dominated by other players.

She came close to winning the grand slam in 2002, but hasn't been close since, only winning 2 major titles in each year.

Steffi won the grand slam, and then had three years where she won 3 major tournaments ...So one grand slam, and then three other years where she almost won the grand slam, by winning three majors.


Serena's wins over the years.

this year: she didn't win the Wimbeldon or the australian open.

last year: didn't win the french or the australian open

year before that in 2011, didn't win anything

in 2009, didn't win the french or the us open

in 2008, didn't win the french or australian open

in 2007, won only the aussie because henin dominated that entire year ...while serena was in her prime..no injuries

in 2006, won nothing

in 2005, only won the australian open ...


I can go on and on and on..She is a great player, but not the greatest. There is no greatest player of all time, because every great has a flaw that disputes the claim of being the greatest of all time...

lots of players, SERENA included, have had injury and health concerns, while you're pulling up that sad shit. Serena had a life threatening illness, are you fucking kidding me???

Even so, I can only recall one tennis player being STABBED during a fucking match.

Graf was the truth, but Seles was RUNNING shit before she got stabbed. Shit man, the person who stabbed Seles was a big Graf fan! Fucked up, but he got what he wanted.

I don't even need to get into the rest of the shit you stated because she has a winning record against ALL of em. ALL OF EM. and you're just good and mad


>definitely be used for henin regarding serena.
>
>The argument isn't that serena isn't great. She is, but she is
>not the greatest of all time, and not even close.
>
>1. She never won the grand slam, or dominated an entire year.
>
>
>2. She is having a better run now than she did in her prime.
>In her prime, the competition was a lot better and she was
>dominated by other players.
>
>She came close to winning the grand slam in 2002, but hasn't
>been close since, only winning 2 major titles in each year.
>
>Steffi won the grand slam, and then had three years where she
>won 3 major tournaments ...So one grand slam, and then three
>other years where she almost won the grand slam, by winning
>three majors.
>
>
>Serena's wins over the years.
>
>this year: she didn't win the Wimbeldon or the australian
>open.
>
>last year: didn't win the french or the australian open
>
>year before that in 2011, didn't win anything
>
>in 2009, didn't win the french or the us open
>
>in 2008, didn't win the french or australian open
>
>in 2007, won only the aussie because henin dominated that
>entire year ...while serena was in her prime..no injuries
>
>in 2006, won nothing
>
>in 2005, only won the australian open ...
>
>
>I can go on and on and on..She is a great player, but not the
>greatest. There is no greatest player of all time, because
>every great has a flaw that disputes the claim of being the
>greatest of all time...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

She won the Aussie UNSEEDED that year

She had a terrible year, was gimpy and just
getting back into it

Fuck you talking about?


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

lol

http://www.oregonlive.com/the-spin-of-the-ball/index.ssf/2013/07/why_serena_williams_will_have.html

there was nothing gimpy about serena in 2007...she was strong as ever, but here best wasn't good enough against henin:

you are referring to 2006, my friend, not 2007

henin after beating serena at the french:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/06/05/sports/tennis/henin.650.jpg



also, henin fractured her kneecap in 2005, bro..had to rehab, CAME THE FUCK BACK and dominated upon her return.

bro, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging the fact henin was on the same level as serena, and was better than her on fastcourts( french, etc)


Henin's game was such a problem for serena, that she was frustrated as shit , because henin had the mental edge.. ...it's all right here:


orts.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/usopen07/news/story?id=3004964

"And, beyond the numbers, they have a history. Their misunderstandings of the past have been set aside, and today there seems to be a deep and abiding mutual respect. Not that they don't like to beat each other. To the contrary, they seem to savor it more than almost anything.
On Tuesday, they collided again, and Henin, not surprisingly, was the emphatic winner, 7-6 (3), 6-1. The Belgian now has sent Williams home from the past three Grand Slams.
Henin will play the winner of Wednesday night's match between Venus Williams and Jelena Jankovic in a Friday semifinal.
After her loss Tuesday, in a halting, four-minute interview, Williams was as sullen as she has ever been in public. She said she would have skipped the mandatory session with the press but didn't want to pay the possible $10,000 fine.
It would have been money well spent. More than anything, Williams was an exceptionally sore loser, perhaps a window to her consistently vast expectations versus the reality of her current situation.
"I really don't feel like talking about it," Williams said. "I can't explain that right now.
"I just think she made a lot of lucky shots, and I made a lot of errors."
Clearly, she was deeply disappointed, perhaps even demoralized.
"No," she said sarcastically. "I'm very happy."
Serena Williams
Timothy A. Clary/AFP/Getty Images
Serena Williams couldn't convert a set point in the first against Justine Henin and it went all downhill from there.
Henin, in her post-match interview, might have best explained why Williams was so distraught.
"Tactically, it was very clear in my head what I had to do," Henin said. "It's very important to do it from the first point to the end. She loves to have control of the rallies. She loves to be in the court. She doesn't like to be under pressure, especially on the forehand side."
Another possibility: Williams never had lost a match to Henin on the hard courts that complement her game (she was 3-0).
"There's nothing to say about my win today," Henin said. "She's at home. She expected a lot of things here. She had a lot of motivation. So that gives a lot of satisfaction."
Make no mistake, Henin won this match more than Williams lost it. She was ruthlessly aggressive; both players approached net 14 times, but Henin won 11 points, compared to only five for Williams.
There is a reason Henin is the world's No. 1 player and the top seed here, a chain of events that placed Williams down at No. 8.


Henin was a mental beast, and never feared serena ...capriati and hingis were the same way with her.

these current players fear the shit out of serena, and the funny thing is she is out of her prime.

She improved DURING 2007 but was SO INJURED after
Wimbeldon that she played NO TOURNAMENTS going into
the US OPEN!!!

You are a fucking LIAR!

She was FAT and HURT and PLAYED herself into shape;

2007 was the YEAR she started to get her shit together
and accomplished what she did SOLELY because she's great

She SHOCKED Sharapova that year, because Serena was
COMPLETELY out of shape!!!!

And worked herself back to the top AGAIN!!!

AFTER a pulmonary embolism!!

GODDAMN you are in here HELPING HER ARGUMENT!!!

bwahhahhahaha


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

You're using a lot of excuses, and you should just acknowledge that henin was just better.

again, henin cracked her freaking kneecap in 2005.she had to rehab like forever, but the knee never really healed, but she still dominated serena on all surfaces when she came back and snatched the number 1 crown.

all while playing on a weak knee, which lead to her leaving in 2008( reinjured the same knee)....she left the game smacked dead in her prime and the number 1 tennis player in the world.


At some point, you have to acknowledge the truth. ...a fucking cracked patella for player who had to run around like crazy ...let that marinate and get back to me.

20 years from now nobody but you will be talking about 3 losses in a rebuilding season for Serena.

Sorry homie...But I'm going to pile on here...Henin? I mean, you grasping for straws...The record is there...Even when Williams was in that era where woman's tennis was really gully her record against Henin, Hingis and the like was impressive....And she's still dominating...

No she wasn't dominating that's the point.

henin dominated her on CLAY!!..do you know what domination means? ...domination means dominating all tourneys and all players....That didn't happen.

henin owned serena on the fast courts....and took an entire year from her!..She dominated a FULL TENNIS SEASON WHILE SERENA WAS IN HER PRIME AND WAS FORCED TO RETIRE WHILE HOLDING THE NUMBER ONE RANKING ABOUT A YEAR LATER....AND THEN SERENA WENT BACK TO THE TOP. ..

lol

what is there not to understand here?

Serena is actually more dominant out of her prime than she was in it, which is the entire argument. She is killing players right now better than she did in her prime, at age where she shouldn't even be playing ....tells a lot about this era of tennis players.


The point is, she is ONE of the greatest, because there is no such thing as the GREATEST of all time.

>Serena is actually more dominant out of her prime than she was
>in it, which is the entire argument. She is killing players
>right now better than she did in her prime, at age where she
>shouldn't even be playing ....tells a lot about this era of
>tennis players.

reminds me of the Kuertin/Safin/Hewitt years post-Sampras, and how agassi was still making GS Finals and winning a few AU Opens. after Safin and Hewitt beat Sampras in b2b US Opens, he still came back and won one more before calling it quits.

it took till 2005 for Roger to finally close the book on that era

You're doing way too much, saying way too much to ultimately lead us back to Serena being better than Henin.

smh

> smh


Yeah...at times it's better than the men's game...

What's your point?

I got a good life men.....

Throwing a cantaloupe into a laundry basket?

and while we are talking about illnesses, injuries and depressions..lol


henin-

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=3395746

2004- she had a rare virus which left her slightly debilitated for 4 months

2005- cracked patella, avoided surgery and rehabbed

2007- had to deal with a dissolving marriage all the while killing serena..she missed the australian open due to her marriage issues, and serena so happened to win that one, but didn't win shit else that year...lol...but yeah serena was depressed

Even in 2007, her finest year ever, she missed tournaments with asthmatic bronchitis, a wrist injury, a respiratory infection and a shoulder injury.


come on orbit. I like you, bro, but come on


henin weighed 126 pounds and her height was 5'6.

If henin does not injury knee, serena does not win most of those titles after henin left. ..henin was that fucking good.

Because that makes no sense.

Is your point that Serena isn't the GOAT because there was another player that she didn't dominate, even though Serena was the better overall player? If so then okay, no need to waste time arguing because saying who the GOAT is in any sport is gonna come down to opinion because of differences in eras, rules, competition, etc. I think Serena is the GOAT but I wasn't watching women's tennis to see Martina, Billie Jean King, or Chris Evert play. I did watch a good deal of Graf when she was at her peak though, and Serena is better.

Serena has never won the grand slam.


steffi did...and had three years where she won three majors in one year...three years!.

Serena came close to winning the grand slam once in her career!..in 2002, and after that never won more than 2 majors in a year. ....no way is that goat material

other players were winning those majors: capriati, hingis, henin.

that's my point!

there were other players who were better than her, but their careers were shortened due to major injuries.

Based on career achievements, steffi STANDS supreme...by a long, long margin.

so im not sure what your criteria...


I'm saying there is no goat...just great players.

and yes henin was better than serena.

it doesn't matter ...chick was still kicking ass and taking names during a nasty divorce...just a strong, strong short woman, whose mental toughness was unmatched.

married, not married....chick was just bad ass.

but her game was so tough on her knees. she had to work twice as hard due to her size.

Steffi only woman to win a calendar year golden slam:

1988: aussi,french,wimbeldon,us open, olympics

the last woman to win the calendar year grand slam:
1988: aussi french wimbeldon, usopen, olympics

came close to winning the calendar grand slam again...three times.

24 grand slam titles.


man...serena is not touching one single stat.


there are no GOATS ...just great players. let that be clear.

steffi is a great
serena is a great...and we can't forget Marg Court who won more major titles than any other player in history, plus she won the grand slam in the modern era

Im out

Sometimes she be looking hella manly
like drag queenish
at others they will catch her in a nice dainty feminine light
her ass (almost) too big for me tho
get her ass pregnant and she'll look like mo'nique

dudes be droolin all over her but there are a gazillion chicks that look and are built just like her at the WIC office but i dont see none of these dudes hollerin.

>Sometimes she be looking hella manly
>like drag queenish
>at others they will catch her in a nice dainty feminine light
>her ass (almost) too big for me tho
>get her ass pregnant and she'll look like mo'nique
>
>dudes be droolin all over her but there are a gazillion chicks
>that look and are built just like her at the WIC office but i
>dont see none of these dudes hollerin.


Uh huh.....

>>Sometimes she be looking hella manly
>>like drag queenish
>>at others they will catch her in a nice dainty feminine
>light
>>her ass (almost) too big for me tho
>>get her ass pregnant and she'll look like mo'nique
>>
>>dudes be droolin all over her but there are a gazillion
>chicks
>>that look and are built just like her at the WIC office but
>i
>>dont see none of these dudes hollerin.
>
>
>Uh huh.....

serenas hair/wig/weave game is ATROCIOUS.
she got one of the $20 stripper weaves
they got all that dough and cant find a decent blk hair stylist?
they never been to atlanta or detroit?

her ass and legs look nice in the shorts i will give her that

but face?
cmon
you really tellin me she winnin beauty contest?
she mad regular
look like any chick on a hbcu yard

as primetime sang...must be the moneeeeeey

>
>Please discuss. Preferably in a manner where thine anger is
>kept
>to a minimum.
>
>Sincerely-
>
>Da Orbsta
>
>PS: Coffee at cigar bars is pretty good. I'm on that dark
>roast and a
>short Hammer & Sickle cigar. Nice way to breath some life
>into a
>gloomy Saturday.
>
>PPS: I'm down to the last bit of cilantro paste. Sunday's guac
>
>will have real cilantro.

It ain't no reason for you to be out here skeezing, Cause it's not the (off)season.

get a new login, take a second crack at this OKP thing

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

My WTA agenda post was clearly initiated after Timmay & co run Bron out of Miami. Guess what?...Serena bowed out of all her summer grand slam tournaments in embarrassing fashion...so I WON (Just like my Dirk agenda post was validated when he nutted up in the post-season followed by the Chandler trade)! I couldn't care less about the WTA once the NFL/NBA season begins.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I been riding Timmay since day 1 & I'm still making hits. The rest of the agenda is for shyts & giggles aka side dish. Melo's career has been going downhill for the most part since he got passed up for Darko. The same dude cats (i.e. Omit_Established) were mention in the same breath as Bron not too long ago. Now y'all reduced to kicking a baby while he's down (Paul George) & bringing up Team Nigeria into the conversation to defend Melo's legacy. Bwahhhahahaa!

Let me know when you wanna apologize, stinky man


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I WON nigga, CRY!

I'll chip in, pause

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

"Summer" grand slam tournaments??? The US Open doesn't count because football season started??? Wow...


>Guess what?...Serena bowed out of all
>her summer grand slam tournaments in embarrassing fashion...so
>I WON

All I did was clown her for losing to unranked players in a muphuckin' Slam (& making up excuses)....something that has NEVER happened to Graf in her career at any tournament.

That's why everybody LOLs at that 22

She was a great, great player, of course

But Serena would be chasing Seles if not for that
maniac



----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

She was the only player that had a winning record against Seles. If you are going to ignore Steffi suffering a mental break down b/c of her father's scandal & the FACT she missed numerous Grand Slams b/c of injury during Monica's rise then you might as well ignore Tiger's personal/physical issues as Rory was coming for the #1 spot.

Before the stabbing

She JACKED THE SHIT out of Graf's #1 Ranking

And she was FIVE YEARS YOUNGER than Graf, nowhere
NEAR her prime

Graf was busy getting beaten, not even making Grand
Slam finals like that

She wasn't ANYWHERE NEAR her prime at the time of
the stabbing

It makes a different for MALES b/c they get stronger & more powerful in their 20s. Females actually tend to regress or plateau after peaking in their teens or early 20s. Most of her peers pick up injuries & end up retiring in the mid 20s b/c their body is spent by the time they hit 25.

Monica got stabbed at 20:

-Steffi won the Career grand slam at 19
-Monica could have won the career Grand Slam at 19 if it wasn't for Steffi (Steffi WHOOPED Monica at Wimbledon during her so called reign)
-Hingis almost won a career Grand Slam at 17 & 19

Capriati was actually more talented than Monica (Her power game used to give Seles trouble on hard-courts even when Monica was cleaning up shop b/w 1990-3) but her father killed her career after she won the gold medal in Barcelona at 16. She actually came back from her weight/drug problem to win 3 grand slams (including defeating Monica at the Aussi) meanwhile Seles was only able to win one grand slam after her return....Muphuckas acting like Seles lost her limb or some shyt.

If you are going to bag on Steffi ONLY winning THREE Grand Slams b/w 1990-92 then YOU should EXPLAIN why Serena ONLY won TWO Grand Slams b/w 2004-2007 (both of which were on the dyke power friendly Aussi open)......**I'll wait**

You're a total piece of shit

You honestly deserve to be throat punched, you
little pussy



>It makes a different for MALES b/c they get stronger & more
>powerful in their 20s. Females actually tend to regress or
>plateau after peaking in their teens or early 20s. Most of her
>peers pick up injuries & end up retiring in the mid 20s b/c
>their body is spent by the time they hit 25.

And Serena Williams is the most dominant woman in
Tennis in her 30s, which completely rewrites the rules
of women's athletics.

So by your own logic Serena is the GOAT

>Monica got stabbed at 20:
>
>-Steffi won the Career grand slam at 19

Monica had won 8/11 total grand slams by 21,
imbecile

The only reason Graf wasn't winning is because
she was dethroned by a better player

Serena was the best whenever the fuck she felt like it

>-Monica could have won the career Grand Slam at 19 if it
>wasn't for Steffi (Steffi WHOOPED Monica at Wimbledon during
>her so called reign)

Odd how Monica jacked Steffi's #1 ranking, won 8 of
11 total grand slams

>-Hingis almost won a career Grand Slam at 17 & 19

LOL -- and what was she doing at THIRTY THREE?

Oh.

>.Muphuckas acting like Seles lost her limb or some
>shyt.

You deserve to get punched in the nose, hard

>If you are going to bag on Steffi ONLY winning THREE Grand
>Slams b/w 1990-92 then YOU should EXPLAIN why Serena ONLY won
>TWO Grand Slams b/w 2004-2007 (both of which were on the dyke
>power friendly Aussi open)......**I'll wait**

Bwahahahaahhaahahah. She was injured, you imbecile. It
wasn't because some girl just came along and was better
than her...she sustained a LIFE THREATENING INJURY and
then came back to be the best AGAIN

AND dominated her sport in way that no woman has

>She sustained a LIFE THREATENING INJURY and

IDIOT, I'm aware of that....it was a rhetorical question that I posed b/c you are OBVIOUSLY biased.

According to you none of Serena's rivals (including her own sister) had any healthy issues or career ending injuries......riiiight. Graf wasn't injured nor dealing w/ off-court distractions during the Monica's rise in the early 90s. **let's just sweep that under the rug b/c it doesn't benefit Serena**

According to your logic although he has yet to win a career Grand Slam the younger Djokovic is better than Nadal b/c he came & stole Nadal's thunder in 2011 when Nadal was dealing w/ injuries (& still is to this day).

That's WHY SHE'S THE GOAT

She HAD EXCUSES....white people were HAPPY AS SHIT
when she was sick in 2004-2007 and LOVING the end
of that era

LLLLLLLLL

Serena CAME BACK and FUCKED EVERYONE UP

in fact, Serena has had MULTIPLE dominant eras

There is NOOOOOOO Athlete of ANY KIND that has
done that

Martina is her only REAL comp as GOAT and Martina
is like "nah, fam, Serena better"

Really that was the debate...Martina vs. Serena

Graf was always in the conversation but nah...Graf
was the most physically gifted ever, was shitting the
bed when Seles was jacking her #1 ranking, winning
8/11 total grand slams



>>She sustained a LIFE THREATENING INJURY and
>
>IDIOT, I'm aware of that....it was a rhetorical question that
>I posed b/c you are OBVIOUSLY biased.
>
>According to you none of Serena's rivals (including her own
>sister) had any healthy issues or career ending
>injuries......riiiight. Graf wasn't injured nor dealing w/
>off-court distractions during the Monica's rise in the early
>90s. **let's just sweep that under the rug b/c it doesn't
>benefit Serena**
>
>According to your logic although he has yet to win a career
>Grand Slam the younger Djokovic is better than Nadal b/c he
>came & stole Nadal's thunder in 2011 when Nadal was dealing w/
>injuries (& still is to this day).


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

"Graf was ranked World No. 1 by the Women's Tennis Association (WTA) for a record 377 total weeks—the longest period for which any player, male or female, has held the number-one ranking since the WTA and the Association of Tennis Professionals began issuing rankings."

Steffi dominated an era when the MAJORITY of the top 20 ALL-TIME WTA players were active & still has a higher winning percentage than Serena plus more Grand Slam titles while having participated in the same amount of Grand Slam tournaments (Over their 18 year career, they both didn't participate 11 Grand Slam b/c of injury).

Serena being ranked #1 at age 32 being special is some ole' bullshyt. Let's be honest, Ivanovic/Wozy would have been cute ball girls in the 80s/90s & Sharapova would have never sniffed the #1 ranking.

Meanwhile Steffi was setting LEGIT records against LEGENDS of the sport DURING their PRIME at the conclusion of her 18th season (the same time span as Serena's debut & her so called record).

"At the 1999 French Open, Graf fought back from a set and twice from a break down in the second set to defeat the top ranked Hingis in three sets for a memorable victory. Graf also became the first player in the open era to defeat the first, second, and third ranked players in the same Grand Slam tournament by defeating second ranked Davenport in the quarter-finals and third ranked Monica Seles in the semifinals."

>"Graf was ranked World No. 1 by the Women's Tennis
>Association (WTA) for a record 377 total weeks—the longest
>period for which any player, male or female, has held the
>number-one ranking since the WTA and the Association of Tennis
>Professionals began issuing rankings."


>Steffi dominated an era when the MAJORITY of the top 20
>ALL-TIME WTA players were active & still has a higher winning
>percentage than Serena plus more Grand Slam titles while
>having participated in the same amount of Grand Slam
>tournaments (Over their 18 year career, they both didn't
>participate 11 Grand Slam b/c of injury).

Started after Monica got stabbed


>Serena being ranked #1 at age 32 being special is some ole'
>bullshyt. Let's be honest, Ivanovic/Wozy would have been cute
>ball girls in the 80s/90s & Sharapova would have never sniffed
>the #1 ranking.

Bwahahahahah

Graf got an old woman Martina

Graf had zero comp because the player better than her
that would have taken half of her grand slams, at least,
got stabbed

>Meanwhile Steffi was setting LEGIT records against LEGENDS of
>the sport DURING their PRIME at the conclusion of her 18th
>season (the same time span as Serena's debut & her so called
>record).

Bwahahaha. She was smashing tomato cans and owes 1/2 her
grand slams to the crazy fan

>"At the 1999 French Open, Graf fought back from a set and
>twice from a break down in the second set to defeat the top
>ranked Hingis in three sets for a memorable victory. Graf also
>became the first player in the open era to defeat the first,
>second, and third ranked players in the same Grand Slam
>tournament by defeating second ranked Davenport in the
>quarter-finals and third ranked Monica Seles in the
>semifinals."

Bwahahahahahhahha

This nigga said "third ranked Monica Seles" in 1999

Bitch, you just said 1999

Serena has MULTIPLE great windows that spanned life threatening
injuries

And she's rewriting the rules now

Bwahaahahaa

>Started after Monica got stabbed
Idiot, Graf was ranked #1 BEFORE Monica ever won a Slam, AFTER Monica won a Slam, DURING the period when Monica was ranked #1 (Monica lost her #1 ranking after Graf whooped her ass at Wimbledon in 91) & of course during Monica's hiatus/return.

>Graf got an old woman Martina
Nigga Martina was ranked #1 & winning Grand Slams when Steffi stole her thunder in 87 at the age of 17. If you want to say Evert was old sure.


>Graf had zero comp because the player better than her
>that would have taken half of her grand slams, at least,
>got stabbed
Zero Comp?....bwahahaha. Seles/Hingis/Vicario/Sabatini/Capriati/Martina/Evert/Davenport/Fernandez/Pierce.....Serena/Venus should also be included they were both 17/19 respectively & had been active for at least 4 years by the time Steffi won her last Grand Slam title in '99. (Their age & experience basically means they were entering their primes in tennis terms)

>Bwahahaha. She was smashing tomato cans and owes 1/2 her
>grand slams to the crazy fan
You do know BOTH Serena/Venus were ranked players during the period past-prime/injury riddled Graf was winning Grand Slams. I guess they must have been tomato cans when Graf was running shyt at the WTA although their peer Hingis was the #1 ranked player. (Unlike Serena, Graf wasn't battling Anna Kournikova for the #1 spot.)


>This nigga said "third ranked Monica Seles" in 1999
Oh so Serena came back from a life threatening injury but Seles couldn't come back from an open wound?...Riiiiiight.


>And she's rewriting the rules now

22>19

I love a strong cup. Serena is the best ever BTW. When she's on she is untouchable.

I watched more of the final yesterday than I watched NFL. NFL is getting real fucking lame and putting out a weak diluted product. People are addicted to fantasy though and that keeps them hooked on watching the games and the Sunday ticket. Makes me not even want to watch with all these fantasy addicts.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/serena-williams-americas-greatest-athlete

i feel like this needs some confirmation


the ultimate (P)ED.. if you will

but she's about as womanly as they come

Unlike the chicks with dicks that you let hump your
booty

Nothing wrong with that

But Serena is a goddess of the highest magnitude

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP1nR7wuGPQ

https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/619886370081869824

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

damn.

harry potter lady going in

I feel like I missed the cutoff generationally for that

On some damn I'm clever *snap* steeze.

7 years and no sign of any intelligence yet.

You're entire contribution on this board is to remind us of your flyover state alma mater

I'm prob one of the most content people on OKS.

You post like some trailer trash that doesn't even have a middle school alma mater.

I come from a family of solid athletes. Uncles and cousins who played ball


I completely understand why this would make someone like you insecure and in your feelings. You've probably had talked about me offline. Wouldn't be surprised


You ( and yours) are more likely from the stock that tutors than actually contribute worth a damn. I'd desperately hold on to my flyover college ID too I guess


Now let's talk about u posting in the Lesson for a decade + and still
Nobody who gives a damn knows who you are ... Quest asks you who the fuck you are. What you say ? Lmao

>I come from a family of solid athletes. Uncles and cousins
>who played ball

No one cares what you did at your family reunion of idiots,

Did you play D1? No? Shut the fuck up.

>I completely understand why this would make someone like you
>insecure and in your feelings. You've probably had talked
>about me offline. Wouldn't be surprised


Don't flatter yourself. You're the one in here making transphobic comments about Serena

(lol and aren't you some self appointed champion of gay rights? More like hypocritical piece of shit)

and now you're having a typical meltdown bc multiple ppl called you out. You are a certified bitch. It's clear as day to everyone.


>You ( and yours) are more likely from the stock that tutors
>than actually contribute worth a damn. I'd desperately hold on
>to my flyover college ID too I guess

Degrees. Those degrees now enable me to live in the greatest city on earth & travel whereever I want,whenever I want.


Mad?


>Now let's talk about u posting in the Lesson for a decade +
>and still
>Nobody who gives a damn knows who you are ... Quest asks you
>who the fuck you are. What you say ? Lmao


I'm sorry I missed the great Amritsar appreciation post in the lesson. Link?

The lesson fell off because of the emergence of idiotic shit heads like you. I've given away tons of music before it was banned. Talking out of your ass as usual.

Fifteen years after she won her first U.S. Open singles title as a 17-year-old, Serena Williams will try to win her sixth on Sunday. If she does, if she defeats a rejuvenated Caroline Wozniacki to win the 18th Grand Slam singles title of her career, it will be time to pose a serious sports question:

Is Williams the greatest female athlete of all time?

Or, perhaps better said: Isn't she already?

Williams has been at or near the top of her sport longer than almost any other athlete, male or female, has ever been at or near the top of his or hers. She has earned more prize money – over $56 million – than any female athlete, ever. She has been ranked No. 1 on six separate occasions, including now. She is the most recent player, man or woman, to hold all four Grand Slam singles titles simultaneously (she did it in 2002–03).

And this sport that she's dominating? It's the most competitive sport women play, with stellar athletes coming out of the woodwork all over the globe, something that just doesn't happen (at least not yet) in most women's sports.

Others certainly have dominated tennis. The names are legendary: Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graf, Chris Evert and Billie Jean King, among others.

But let's look at the era in which Serena has been on top. It's the most competitive time in the history of women's tennis, with all due respect to the greats of the past and what they could (and couldn't) do with their wooden rackets.

This is true of any women's sport, actually. Due to the massive increase in interest, coaching, training and money in girls' and women's sports in the United States due to Title IX, today is the best, most competitive day in the history of every girls' and women's sport – until tomorrow.

So, at the most competitive time in the history of the most competitive women's sport, Williams has been the most dominant player. For 15 years, from ages 17 to 32. Through injury and illness, some more mysterious than others. With an awe-inspiring physique and power that have set new standards for female athletes of today, and beyond. Through times of good sportsmanship -- and bad. Against all comers, old and new, including her sister Venus, another one of the best there ever was, with seven Grand Slam singles titles herself.

I think I'm about to rest my case.

But first, a nod to the past.

In 1999, ESPN named its 100 greatest North American athletes of the 20th century. These were the female athletes appearing on the list: Babe Didrikson (10th place overall), Navratilova (19th), Jackie Joyner-Kersee (23rd), Wilma Rudolph (41st), Evert (50th), King (59th), Althea Gibson (65th) and Bonnie Blair (69th).

USATODAY

Serena Williams doesn't forget a player who beats her

Full disclosure: I was an on-air participant in this series, but was not a voter who helped select the list. If I had been, I would have moved up Joyner-Kersee and King. Joyner-Kersee, a three-time Olympic gold medalist in the heptathlon and long jump, took on the East Germans and Soviets in their heyday and beat them at their own game, no small feat.

As for the pioneering King, without her legendary victory over Bobby Riggs in 1973, Title IX would have suffered far longer than it did from a lack of attention and implementation by our high schools and colleges.

In the 15 years since that list was compiled, more names have bubbled to the surface: Mia Hamm, Abby Wambach, Sheryl Swoopes, Lisa Leslie, Diana Taurasi, Annika Sorenstam, Missy Franklin and Gabby Douglas, to name a few.

Past and present, they're all worthy, but none has so remarkably risen above her competition, time and again, as the best of them all, Serena Williams.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I'm about to drank and act up on some gp shit

why?

Just because

now that i want her to get the calendar slam, her career is coming into focus again. i just want her to get the record and be GOAT.

she gretzky status dominance right now.

I would like to see her put the quantifiable aspects of that debate out of reach. Even with Gretzky, you could go back and look at Orr, Richard, Howe and Harvey, possibly some guy before the TV era (I couldn't call that). But he's created about as strong of a consensus as one can and she has that opportunity as well.

>she gretzky status dominance right now.

*two* different arcs

One can say Gretzky's peak was better than Serena's
(it was), but TWO arcs TWELVE YEARS APART?!?!?

There is no one we can say that about


----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Just for the fact that he was sort of Gretzky's Seles, but circumstances out of his control put them below the best player of their era.

Mario is probably the only guy from the Gretzky era that had an argument as being that good, but his career got derailed by the cancer.

People forget he actually had a better PPG average than Gretzky, but just missed a large part of his prime. He's definitely the only person who could come close to him in terms of points each season. The top 13 points in a season of all time are all Gretzky and Mario.

Then he came back after missing a few years and was instantly one of the best again, was just too little left.

I guess I raise this for 2 reasons, because it shows how impossible it is to basically go away and come back for a long reign on top again, and also because it's interesting how close Graf/Seles and Gretzky/Mario can get.

Now if only Sid Crosby could have done what Serena did to take over the conversation of GOAT.

I'm not claiming he is BETTER than Wayne, but they were much closer than people realize mostly due to length of career. Imagine a non cancer scenario and I think we talk about them as 1A and 1B without controversy.

Gretzky has 1.921 PPG in his career, Mario has 1.883 (Mario was well ahead before his comeback seasons where he dipped). The biggest difference between the 2 is Gretzky played 500 or so more games which wasn't really related to Mario not being good enough.

Some notable things that Wayne can't claim. (and yes I copied and pasted)


Best goals per game in the regular season and playoffs at .750

Third best goals per game in the regular season at .754 (Gretzky is not 1 or 2)

5 goals in different ways in one game (shorthanded, full strength, powerplay, penalty shot, and empty net) (December 31, 1988, against the New Jersey Devils; only player to accomplish the feat)

Shorthanded goals, season (13 in 1988–89)

Goals, period (4, 26 January 1997, shares record)

Only player to score 30+ power-play goals in two different seasons

One of only two players to score 10 or more short-handed goals in two different seasons. The other is Wayne Gretzky.

Most goals scored or assisted on, season (57.3% of team's goals, 1988–89)

Only player with three 8-point games
Only player with three 8-point games in one season

because some things just don't need to be argued.

Mario was over 2 PPG for his career when he went out with his back issues. He was producing more points at a faster pace than Wayne when both were still in their primes.

If Mario had those extra 500 games it's a whole different conversation...I am however smart enough to know that the If is a big If, again not saying he's better...just that he deserves his due as the only true counterpart to Wayne.

Injuries are part of the game and the what-if of how productive guys could have been in games they didn't play if they were healthy or in games they did if they were healthier usually seems futile.

Neither guy was really known as a fierce checker or anything like that, though Mario played a more physical game and had more size. Opposing centers though generally considered Gretzky the more frustrating opponent, just a total mindfuck to play against.

I think you look at a leadership standpoint, Gretzky was way up there but he also had Messier backing him up. That was a big thing in general, I mean Wayne had LOADED teams, Mario had really shitty ones at times in his career (though he had some stacked ones).

I do think it's very close--I don't agree, for example, that the comparison is "insulting to Gretz"--but I do think Gretzky managed to retire as the best player of his era.

I know Wayne is the #1 player of all time, I said it several times.

But the comparison I made of Gretzky vs Mario is pretty similar in a lot of ways to Seles vs Graf.

Nobody argues Seles retired ahead of Graf for her career, but we love to operate in what ifs when we talk about the 2 of them and there were certainly seasons where Graf was 2nd behind Seles.

Obviously tennis is different and much easier to compare 2 players head to head from the same era, but the idea that the best player's best rival was basically taken out of the competition by odd circumstances that people in the sport aren't supposed to deal with makes it a pretty apt comparison.

For all the times I hear people try to say what if Seles didn't get stabbed, I think it's perfectly fair to say what if Mario didn't have cancer while still accepting that he isn't #1 on the list.

i was thinking of making a top 20 NHL players of all-time post but that shit would promptly good plywood and be swept into the annals of OKS within six hours.

And that is from someone who secretly adored Mario (despite playing for a team I hated) and never really warmed up to Gretzky despite his being in my backyard.

Lemieux is quite likely the greatest power-play player of all time and the most talented overall player ever. Gretzky himself said that if he had Mario's God-given talent, he would have probably scored twice as much.

But in the end Gretzky's had a level of greatness that was just unmatched in his era. His imagination for the game was unmatched by anyone ever, and that's saying something thinking about players like Richard, Beliveau, Cournoyer, Forsberg, Dionne, et al.

If I had to put it in terms of another sport, Gretzky was like a Magic Johnson or a Greg Maddux, not necessarily the most physically WOW WOW WOW guy with the power and flash, but he was just simply the most effective.

Mario was every bit his peer and one of the 10 greatest players of all time in my book, but I don't think he was better. You have to go back to Orr, Howe and the Habs' reign(s) to find arguably better players.

Consider the difference between says Willie Mays and Hank Aaron or Michael and Magic, it's that kind of debate IMO.

I think personally if I were starting a team from zero I would want Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux and Beliveau in that order.

He played at the same time as Gretzky and his career was cut short, so it's easy to forget that when he was at his best, he was right there.

Problem is you say that and people read it as MARIO IS THE GOAT and that's all they can respond to.

I'm happy enough to have Charlie on my side on this one, a Flyers fan who knows more about Hockey than anyone I've ever met online or in person.

Thanks for the kind words; he was a guy along with some IRL friends that really helped pushed my interest in the sport when it was going from somewhat casual to intensely fanatical.

But I think a lot of people are on your side, really, it's a sensible argument. You'd have to be an outright hater not to have Mario in your top 10, like load up the list with goalies and/or really old-timers. Be on some Mr Burns "He couldn't hold Pie Traynor's glove!" shit talking about Dit Clapper or something.

way back in the day (93-95?). I just remember her and Venus with the braids and how they were poised to be the future of tennis. It's crazy to me that Serena is just 1 year older than me - given how much she's accomplished in her lifetime.

I grew up playing - never competitively - and watching tennis, so I've seen a lot of tennis through years. She's the most fun to watch when she's at her peak. Just so dominant. I never thought there would be a more consistently great player than Steffi Graff, but Serena is better imo.

its far beyond a trophy case

or a Trophy Wing at least

Serena would be the face for womens tennis, Federer for mens

Gretzky for Hockey

Kareem for basketball

etc.

Like, she loves winning, but not as much as she loves breaking people. She's the closest to Cheese Eyes since Cheese Eyes, because she genuinely loves hurting people's feelings.

Yeah she's in the Jordan class all the way around. Every female tennis player from here until infinity is aspiring to the standard she set.

But I am always leery of this "gold standard" and "peerless" argument. But as far as players I have seen consistently, obviously she is the best.

Her two rivals for best player ever are Martina and Steffi.

Steffi was a power player. You're just not going to win going power against power with Serena.

Martina was a serve and volley player, a style that power players like Steffi and non wooden rackets basically killed off like a dinosaur.

I'm not sure I was qualified to evaluate what I was looking at (or that I would be today) and obviously that is not the full history of the sport. Like I know Hingis was hampered by injuries (Navratilova still widely rated as better, no?) and then going further back I really have little idea. Like how good was Athlea Gibson? Margaret Court is an extremely accomplished player but I couldn't come close to putting her in a modern context.

That's frightening

That would make her one of the most clutch athletes
of all time

In addition to simply being one of it's best and most skilled

She had a similar record in mixed doubles, too.

She also won more than half of the Slams that she even entered.

She is the all-time leader in Slams won for a singles player and in sum (doubles, mixed doubles, singles) she lapped the field. She has a career boxed set, having won every slam in all three possible disciplines. Venus is still chasing a calendar Slam, and I hope she gets it. Court had one, plus two more in mixed doubles.

Again I did not watch her play but from a statistical standpoint she is pretty unfuckwittable. Hence why I am not here shouting ZOMG GOAT! like everyone else, not because I don't agree, because I just don't know. In any sport the No. 1 is debatable, like I said I even consider Gretzky's goatness debatable and that is in a sport that I know infinitely more about.

Everyone knows Margaret Court won a lot.

Most Tennis nerds gave Graf the nod over Court, tho.

And there's a reason Navritilova and many other former
Serena critics are now almost universally falling in
line and have come out of the woodwork saying "she's
the best." (McEnroe, who was a dick for a decade has
converted too)

So yeah, people who seem to know what they are talking
about are falling in line, so you might want to listen
to them rather than boxscore bobbying simply
because you don't like Orbit_Established

But I'm not really interested in a "She's the best ever"
debate because white tennis fans will never concede that.
These are the same ones who've been disrespecting her since
she was a kid. I don't care.

But two arcs of dominance 12 years apart, combined with
the clutch nature of those victories, combined with the
life threatening injury, combined with the diversity in
her game, combined with....it's incredible.


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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

You came and found my reply, not the other way around.

All I am saying is that in any sport there is always a debate over who in No. 1 and I'm not here to make any assertion as to who is the best. That's not even an argument, weirdo.

And so as far as what people think, that's about all that
matters to me.

If the biggest white fratboy asshole of all time admit its,
then the message has been sent, and I'm pretty okay with
whatever else the Nazi Tennis Fans want to say.

>You came and found my reply, not the other way around.
>
>All I am saying is that in any sport there is always a debate
>over who in No. 1 and I'm not here to make any assertion as to
>who is the best. That's not even an argument, weirdo.

Exactly, that's what I mean by "I'm not sure what your point is."

Of course there's always a debate. I'm not sure why you felt
the need to come in here and tell us that. Everyone knows that,
in every sport.


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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

But unlike in other sports where Jordan was the best and then I went back and watched Wilt and Cap and so forth or Gretzky was the best and I saw Orr, Howe, et al, I have not seen amateur era matches or anything in the Open era before the 80s.

So this is less an argument than positing the idea that tennis existed before major TV and that personally I will abstain from making any "all-time" claims.

As long as you're not over-applying it to Serena,
we're fine.


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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

The only sport where I have a strong opinion as to who is the GOAT is basketball and even there I acknowledge room for debate in spite of

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/PJ-BF564_SP_WIL_DV_20120227165409.jpg

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/Wilt%20the%20stilt%20Chamberlain%20with%2020000.JPG

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

like sometimes i watch her play and she is just better. then vs some people or at a certain point in the match it's like a switch flips and she think "nah you got to get out the paint right now" and just try to beat bitches off the court.

And tells you all you need to know.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Golf's not this bad, although I wonder how well Tiger would done if he would have been as out-front about his nonwhiteness.

Note: I am not trying to claim Tiger is or is not black. I am not having any part of that debate. Thank you and come again.

like that though.

Let's just try to right wrongs and fight injustice without getting into some Olympics of bigotry

Both are both outright segregationist and classist
which breeds a very particular type of racism

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Treating people who have a ton in common with as some sort of subhuman beast based on mythology and divide-and-conquer deceit of white populist elites is pretty disgusting, too.

Whatever. I mean if there is still racism in the fucking NBA, it's everywhere, and I don't need to single out one or the other. I'd rather just call it all out

>Treating people who have a ton in common with as some sort of
>subhuman beast based on mythology and divide-and-conquer
>deceit of white populist elites is pretty disgusting, too.
>
>Whatever. I mean if there is still racism in the fucking NBA,
>it's everywhere, and I don't need to single out one or the
>other. I'd rather just call it all out


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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

so i don't know if it's any better to be black, but it's better for "other" non whites.

Note: other non whites is officially the worst term.

As in even other white people from non-anglophone countries were poo-pooed.

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

At one point someone like Djokovic would have been feeling that Paul Mooney.

That isn't the mainstream leftist intersectionality
agreed upon way of thinking about the world, but it is
spectacularly true in almost everything

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

i'm so scared about tnc's book dropping tomorrow. i'm worried he's going to talk about the above in a way that is perfect and therefore perfectly painful.

sorry, i didn't have a better response other than "cosign" so i thought i'd talk about something else.

Can't say I've seen anything like this for a book in a
LONG time


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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

another reason shes GOAT..


Serena Williams 'back from death bed'
From Ayesha Durgahee, CNN
June 14, 2011 -- Updated 1032 GMT

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/SPORT/tennis/06/13/tennis.serena.venus.williams/

(CNN) -- Former world No. 1 Serena Williams will make her long-awaited tennis comeback this week, determined to make the most of her "second chance."
The American is playing her first tournament since claiming her 13th grand slam title at Wimbledon almost a year ago.
She has been recovering from a freak foot injury suffered in a restaurant and subsequent blood clots in both lungs that she thought might end her playing days.
Williams will be lining up at the Eastbourne grass court event on England's south coast, a tournament the 29-year-old has not entered since 1998.
She told reporters ahead of her opening match against 2010 Wimbledon semifinalist Tsvetana Pironkova that earlier this year she had been "on my death bed at one point -- quite literally. I've had a serious illness but at first I didn't appreciate that."

"I definitely have a new perspective on life," Williams told CNN later on Monday.
"I'm really honored to have a chance to walk out on the court, because three and a half months ago I didn't think I would have that chance again.
"I just thought, if I can just pull through and survive, then wow, I would be really excited for that."

Williams' absence, along with that of her older sister Venus -- who is also returning at Eastbourne -- has allowed the 20-year-old Caroline Wozniacki to claim her crown as women's queen.

Another former No. 1, Kim Clijsters, has won two of the last three grand slam titles while China's Li Na has launched herself as a major contender with her maiden success at the French Open this month.
"Everyone's playing really well on the women's tour, the competition's just so deep that everyone else is winning every other week, so I just hope that if I stay healthy then I can be one of those people who can take a win away as well," Williams said.
Now ranked 25th, she aims to return to the top as she did when she won the Australian Open in 2007 after slumping to 95th in the WTA standings at the end of the previous year.
"I was actually hoping to be better where I left off because that was so last year. And this is a new year -- if I could just do a little better, that would be awesome," said Williams, who also won the Australian Open in 2010.
"My training regime has come a long way, I'm really excited to be back on the court and focused. I've been training hard and I've been training different now. I enjoy the fact that I'm working harder."
On Monday, Venus Williams won her first match since retiring with a hip injury during the third round of the Australian Open in January, beating her opponent that day Andrea Petkovic.
Williams, who turns 31 on Friday, won 7-5 5-7 6-3 against the eighth-seeded German despite starting the match with two double-faults.
"Coming back from such a long layoff and competing against someone who has been playing so well the last 12 months, there was a lot going on out there, but I was extremely excited to come back with a win," 33rd-ranked Williams said after setting up a second-round clash with either fellow former world No. 1 Ana Ivanovic or Germany's Julia Gorges.
"I never thought I'd be out about five months, I never thought it would take that long. There were times I felt I wasn't getting any better, and that was frustrating. But I never let it slow me down."
Clijsters, meanwhile, made a winning return to action in the Netherlands following her second-round exit at Roland Garros.
The top-seeded Belgian beat Romania's Monica Niculescu 7-5 7-5 at the UNICEF Open in S'-Hertogenbosch, a tournament she won in 2003, to set up a clash with Swiss qualifier Romina Oprandi.
Young Dutch player Arantxa Rus, who ousted Clijsters in Paris before losing in the next round, was beaten 6-2 6-4 by Russian second seed Svetlana Kuznetsova.
Sixth-seeded Russian Maria Kirilenko, who ended Rus' French Open hopes, was upset 7-6 (7-5) 6-2 by Japan's 40-year-old former world No. 4 Kimiko Date Krumm.

LITERALLY

Any ONE of these would be among the 10 greatest
stories in the history of sports

ANY ONE

And she's all of them

1) The race and poverty story in a wealthy sport (this would
be remarkable even if she was barely top 10 all time...if she
won 3 Grand Slams this would be true)

2) The being awesome at tennis story (even if she was white
and rich, the manner in which she wins, the 21-4 GS finals
record, the possible taking over the mantle, the two different
arcs of dominance 12 years apart)

3) The age story (she redefined aging in female athletes)

4) The illness and recovery story

5) The her and her sister story.




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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

don't tell me you don't want to know everything about Richard Williams, how Venus and Serena interact, etc.

talking about she look like a gorilla. niggas proud too.

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

You prolly posting this mad, stuck at an airport

Go back to Mars, ugly nigga

>
>You prolly posting this mad, stuck at an airport
>
>Go back to Mars, ugly nigga

Just being honest

A W today, I legit put her name in GOAT discussions.

Mike
Bron
Serena.

It's been a laugher since then.

>
>It's been a laugher since then.
>
>
and ask him about what Henin woulda done at this age if not for hot knees.

his arguments look dumb(er) as FUCK five years later.

4-4 2nd set
Osaka breaks her serve
Then aces her off the court

I thought Serena looked great in her previous match
She looked like she was going to make it a match
Not sure what happened at the end
But I hope she doesn’t get too discouraged

Osaka is just that good
When becomes more of a killer on the court
I expect her to make a run of grand slams

I want Serena to rack up all the titles.
But I want the same for Naomi.

but I can't see naomi's career being anywhere close to as long right now..

Overall last night was a pretty sloppy match...not a lot of long points just unforced errors for whoever lost the games

That’s an overstatement. She gave away that first set.
She created tons of unforced errors, which extended the play.

She could have easily won the first set 6-1. But after winning
the first 2 games and going up 2-0, the errors piled on.

I’m a fan of both. But at this stage in her career the longer the match, the
more it is a negative for Serena. Her athleticism and speed have diminished
due to age, so it is important that she keeps the matches short as possible,
and does not put herself in a hole.

I still think she can get two more Grand Slams, but she is going to have to play
less non-major tourneys and keep her body and skills in form.

Naomi is a silent killer, though. She gives those innocent, reticent interviews, and
comes off as being intimidated.

just too fast, too strong and got the placement
Serena has to beat her in straights cause she just don't have it in the tank anymore. But then her game is also a step behind Naomi in every way rn due to age. Tough situation.

I can only see her winning another major if the bracket falls into place for her.

No reason for anyone to fry anyone.

Third best player in the world based on 2021 rankings

Need to get a Wimbledon and FO.


She has a bright future, but still not totally the best player in the world.
Plays Brady for the AO title, if she wins then she should be ranked number 1.

But I will be rooting for Brady because she’s American.

>But I will be rooting for Brady because she’s American.

I don’t support cheaters or those who support racist dictators who killed
over a quarter of a million Americans.

It appears that she uses the Henin approach when facing Serena.

Henin gave Serena nothing and made every point a battle mentally
and physically. That’s what the match reminded me off. Serena made
a lot of mistakes that she normally doesn’t make against players.

This goes back to when Naomi beat her 3 year ago.

You just have those players who can match you and make everything
tough.

For awhile, Serena never had any true competition since Henin...someone to really
challenge her and not back down ...make every point a battle

Sharapova? A cheat and total trash.

Sloan? Mentally weak

Hislop? Mentally weak

Naomi is the silent killer and really doesn’t give a fock ...just pretends the shy game.

But I still think Serena can get 1 or 2 more slams similar to Federer...but the situation
has to be right, and Naomi can’t be in the way.

She was far past what was supposed to be a prime 7 years ago.
This is not a team sport where "making your teammates better"
can mask aging.

AND she had a life threatening pregnancy 4 years ago.

So we have to introduce the proper variables.

She's very, very, old. And she had a life threatening
physical circumstance.

To put this in perspective: she's been more competitive
than Roger Federer has, and Federer is the same age and
didn't go through a life threatening pregnancy.

To be honest: that she's competitive at at this point
might be the most impressive feat of her career.

just think she is 4-0 in grand slam finals now. If she gets to 8-0 that could be looked at as better than 23-10. We may have a new GOAT crowned.


*sarcasm in post*

I’m not one to really get into GOAT talks. I just do it with Mike and Joe to kill
all the Lebron and Brady followers who go overboard...

We saw that when Serena came on after Steffi, and I Wasn’t for it then.

Steffi is still the only tennis player to win the golden slam and win all grand slams
at least 4 times...that shit is crazy and an illustration of pure dominance. She has 22
Grand slam wins. Serena has 23. It’s hard to say which one is the GOAT.

Steffi has the Monica Seles issue. If Seles were never stabbed, does Steffi continue
to dominant?

Same thing with Serena. If Henin had not retired due to injuries, would Serena still have dominated tennis? Henin retired number 1 in the world, and had beaten Serena in
three straight slams. And with a 6-8 record against Serena, she would have continued winning some of the those major titles, especially the French Open , where she was 4-1 against Serena.

So now that brings us to Naomi. Naomi is 12-0 in majors once she gets into the QF.
If that’s not an illustration of how weak the field is in women’s tennis, I don’t
know what is. Serena is way out of her prime, so who is going to compete against Naomi?

Naomi could very well win 25 major trophies by the time she is 30 years old. But would
that make her the GOAT by doing it in a very weak era?

In the 80s and 90s, there was no such talk of GOATs. Everyone was simply acknowledged as great players. Just like there was no talk of TOP 5 MCs until
this era came about. Our judgements have become too extreme and unrealistic.

We don’t have to discredit or devalue the greatness of former players to acknowledge and give praise to current players. All are legendary.