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|Forum name||Okay Sports|
|Topic subject||ESPN Best Players under 25 list and debate. I'm just the messenger|
2117153, ESPN Best Players under 25 list and debate. I'm just the messenger|
Posted by Basaglia, Tue Jan-22-13 12:03 PM
3-YR WARP: 45.1
3-YR WARP: 34.2
3-YR WARP: 34.2
3-YR WARP: 36.6
3-YR WARP: 31.7
Current: Rose has a lot of Durant in him, as he is a "reluctant"
3-YR WARP: 35.1
3-YR WARP: 17.9
3-YR WARP: 40.5
3-YR WARP: 20.1
3-YR WARP: 23.5
3-YR WARP: 25.1
3-YR WARP: 25.7
3-YR WARP: 35.9
3-YR WARP: 31.5
3-YR WARP: 21.2
3-YR WARP: 14.0
3-YR WARP: 18.5
3-YR WARP: 34.8
3-YR WARP: 32.5
3-YR WARP: 21.6
3-YR WARP: 13.8
3-YR WARP: 8.9
3-YR WARP: 16.9
2117155, individual debates, featuring KyKy vs Rose|
Posted by Basaglia, Tue Jan-22-13 12:04 PM
. Better player under 25: Russell Westbrook or James Harden?
Dan Feldman, PistonPowered: Russell Westbrook. This is a nice season for Harden, whom the Thunder spurned for players like Westbrook. But there's still a reason Oklahoma City chose Westbrook. Point guards -- yes, Westbrook is one -- tend to have more value than shooting guards, because they have more responsibility. That's especially true of point guards (Westbrook) who turn the ball over less often than shooting guards (Harden).
Andrew Han, ClipperBlog: Westbrook, even though he's not a prototypical point guard and is unfairly criticized because he plays with Kevin Durant. Westbrook is the better defender, and when you factor in his lower turnover percentage, higher rebounding rate and similar field goal and 3-point percentage, Westbrook narrowly edges Harden.
Danny Nowell, Portland Roundball Soc.: Harden. I think this is nearly a toss-up, and Harden's efficiency edge over Westbrook is mitigated somewhat by the OKC dynamo's higher usage rate, but I'll take the Beard. He's got Russ on win shares, shooting of every kind and he's a year younger.
Michael Wallace, ESPN.com: Russell Westbrook. But this is as close as they come, and I've gone back and forth a couple of times between them. If it comes down to having to make one play to win a game, I fear Harden more because of his smoother offensive game. But overall, Westbrook gets the nod because when he's engaged defensively, he dominates his position at both ends.
Royce Young, Daily Thunder: Westbrook. Harden has nights when his scoring efficiency and playmaking will almost blow your mind. But Westbrook's toughness and competitive spirit are special, and something that sets him apart. Plus, I think we're pretty much witnessing Harden's potential. Westbrook has yet to realize his.
2. Better player under 25: Blake Griffin or Kevin Love?
Feldman: Blake Griffin. What happened to Love? He amazed me for being quirky good, doing things like offensively rebounding at an elite level while hanging out beyond the arc enough to be a good 3-point shooter. But even before his latest injury, he made just 20 of 92 3-pointers this season. That could just be the product of a small sample size, but Love has never made fewer 3-pointers in any 92-attempt set. Rather than trying to figure out why he has slipped, I'll take Griffin, who can create basketball's most efficient shot more often than anyone else in the league.
Han: Kevin Love, with the caveat that Blake Griffin could be the better player once they're 25 and older. Love is a better rebounder, but Griffin is the better passer and, after improving this season, the better defender. And for all the complaints about Griffin's jumper, they both shoot in the high 30 percent on midrange shots. Really the only thing separating them is Love's 3-point range.
Nowell: Griffin. These two are even more neck and neck than Harden and Westbrook -- they, in fact, have the same win shares per 48 exactly -- so I'll give the edge to Griffin. He's a year younger, and a little more experienced playing for playoff teams. Otherwise, this is close to a wash.
Wallace: Kevin Love. Yes, Blake Griffin is far more flashy and athletic. However, the bottom line for me is that Love gives you more boards and hits the occasional 3-pointers and free throws. Griffin is more durable and flat-out terrorizes opponents in transition. But Love has a far more complete skill set that allows him to punish teams in a more subtle, yet effective way.
Young: Love. Outside of the highlights and athleticism, Love is superior to Griffin in almost every way. Griffin's game is still raw and developing, while Love is a mostly polished inside-out offensive player. Touch from 25 feet to go with maybe the best rebounding instincts in the game -- that's a special kind of package.
3. Better player under 25: Derrick Rose or Kyrie Irving?
Feldman: Derrick Rose. This answer could look really bad in a few months, because it's foolish to assume Rose's athleticism will return after an ACL tear. But as well as Irving has played this season, Rose has already had two seasons better than the one Irving is having. Keep in mind, Rose is four years older than Irving, so, injuries aside, he should be ahead of him.
Han: Irving, due to Rose's uncertainty after injury. Body of work, Rose is the better player, but no one knows whether that Rose still exists. Couple that with Irving's razzle-dazzle ball skills and smooth shooting stroke and the 2012 rookie of the year edges out the 2009 iteration.
Nowell: Right now, Rose. But I think Irving is destined to be the league's second-best point guard. Provided he comes back close to his former level of production, Rose should once again become one of the most dynamic guards in the league, but Irving's balanced game will eventually give him the edge.
Wallace: Derrick Rose. In a vacuum, Irving's the answer. He's the better shooter, scorer and defender. So I fully admit to making this pick out of respect for what I've seen Rose do over the course of his career in leading his team in far more meaningful moments. If Rose is able to regain close to what he had before the knee surgery, he lifts the Bulls into title contention.
Young: Rose. We haven't seen him in almost a year, so it's kind of easy to forget what a ridiculously good offensive player he is. And there's the unavoidable question of how he's going to respond to his injury. Will it change him? Will he stop exploding and cutting and slashing the way he did? If he returns to what he was, he'll not just reclaim his perch as a premier point guard, but among the top players in the league.
4. Better player under 25: Serge Ibaka or Brook Lopez?
Feldman: Serge Ibaka. This was the toughest choice. Both are having career years, and both have confusing reputations. Ibaka, though he's an excellent shot-blocker, hasn't always been an excellent defender -- a distinction often not recognized. And how quickly we forget Lopez ranked 14th in Bill Simmons' trade-value list in 2010. I'll take Ibaka, because his so-far career year more closely resembles his norm than Lopez's.
Han: Ibaka. Lopez has a clear advantage as a post player, but Ibaka is a better rebounder, more versatile defender and better shooter. Brook Lopez might be the most offensively skilled center in the league, but Ibaka just does too many other things to ignore.
Nowell: Ibaka. I'm no fan of Lopez-bashing, and as a scorer with such a high usage rate he's very impressive, but this one is less close than it appears. Ibaka is more efficient, younger, more of a contributor on defense and a better rebounder even with Lopez's recent improvement.
Wallace: Serge Ibaka. If you want traditional, post-up play, Lopez is your guy. But in today's NBA, where defensive versatility is more valued than low-post footwork, Ibaka is the better overall value. Neither is as assertive as their respective skill sets would allow them to be. But Lopez is featured in Brooklyn. Ibaka isn't in OKC. Yet their numbers are similar. That says it all.
Young: Ibaka. I'm not so sure there's a more talented offensive center in basketball than Lopez. He's a true 7-footer that has pick-and-pop ability and a quality post game. That's rare in today's NBA. But Ibaka is one of the league's best midrange shooting bigs, is insanely active on the glass and is the best shot-blocker in the world. Lopez has big-time offensive gifts, but Ibaka is a more impactful end-to-end player.
5. Better player under 25: Stephen Curry or Jrue Holiday?
Feldman: Stephen Curry. I like Holiday's potential, but this was the easiest answer of the bunch. Curry is an elite offensive player thanks to great 3-point shooting and plus passing, two skills that make his Warriors teammates even more effective. Curry is on pace to have the best 3-point percentage ever by a player averaging 20 points and 6 assists per game. Plus, his steals make him at least a decent defender.
Han: Curry, with the dreaded "if healthy" tag. Holiday has a great all-around game, but Curry being a shooting savant gets the edge. He could already be a perennial candidate for the 50-40-90 club, and the only thing holding him back is the threat of ankle injury. Combined with the overall defensive improvements of a surprising Golden State squad, it's tough to not pick Curry.
Nowell: Curry. This comparison really hammers home how amazing Curry has been; even with Holiday's career year, this is not close. Curry shoots better, at a higher usage rate, somehow rebounds at a slightly better rate and trails Holiday only slightly in assist rate. Holiday is younger, and should turn his physical advantage into real defensive disruption, but right now, Steph's the man.
Wallace: Jrue Holiday. Curry's durability is a major concern. That said, his upside offensively makes him well worth the risk. But Jrue has shown this season he's capable of getting a triple-double any given night. He's required to do more for Philly, but he's answered the challenge. Nothing about his game is flashy. He just seems to do a little of everything well on both ends.
Young: Curry. As goes anything with Curry, this is contingent on those ever-rickety ankles. Assuming they stay sturdy, he's a threat for multiple seasons of 20-plus points a game, shooting 50-40-90 percentages. That's elite offense.
2117156, Damn...okc could have had 4 of these cats...wow nm|
Posted by Binlahab, Tue Jan-22-13 12:05 PM
do or die
2117298, prolly should have|
Posted by Bombastic, Tue Jan-22-13 01:28 PM
2117697, Main thing I noticed, WTF!|
Posted by -DJ R-Tistic-, Tue Jan-22-13 08:46 PM
2117161, I feel like Ryan Anderson has been in the league like 10 years|
Posted by CherNic, Tue Jan-22-13 12:10 PM
2117164, because he looks and moves like any ol' 6-10+ white guy|
Posted by Basaglia, Tue Jan-22-13 12:11 PM
2117392, i was thinking 27-28, easy. Im shocked he's 24.|
Posted by themaddfapper, Tue Jan-22-13 02:20 PM
2117172, lol @ Ed Davis over Bledsoe... or on the list, period.|
Posted by Frank Longo, Tue Jan-22-13 12:14 PM
2117294, Don't sleep on Ed|
Posted by UpNorth, Tue Jan-22-13 01:25 PM
2117302, Ed Davis has been beasting since Andrea went down, and winning|
Posted by rjc27, Tue Jan-22-13 01:29 PM
they are like 5 games over 500 I think since "BAHHT-YAAHNEEE" (Avery Johnson pronunciation) went down
2117450, he belongs on the list, but bledsoe should be higher|
Posted by rob, Tue Jan-22-13 03:04 PM
2117577, Players who belong above Ed:|
Posted by Frank Longo, Tue Jan-22-13 05:04 PM
Andre Drummond (yep, already)
Debatable, but I'd err on their side:
Ed Davis can compete for a spot in the Top 40 Under 25. Which, considering how awful he was toward the end of his college career and at the beginning of his pro career, is already a massive achievement. He's vying for a top 40 spot based on his last month of play. But c'mon @ the top 25. Even UNC fans are giving that a "fuck outta here" face.
2117593, my AD comparison post has opened eyes i see|
Posted by cgonz00cc, Tue Jan-22-13 05:18 PM
because its not like any of you watch him play lol
2117597, I've watched a couple of Pistons games for my boy Singler.|
Posted by Frank Longo, Tue Jan-22-13 05:22 PM
I've been impressed with Drummond's raw physique since UConn. Obviously there was that scary "he doesn't care" thing going on there, but worst case scenario, dude would be *solely* a defensive dynamo. He's the type of guy that will make one or two plays a game that will raie your eyebrows. Can't wait to see what he can do by year 3 or 4.
2117724, i dont know where the "doesnt care" idea came from|
Posted by cgonz00cc, Tue Jan-22-13 09:23 PM
but im glad
as an aside will bynum just blew by jj redick for a scoop and score and then redick hit a three on the other end. it made me feel old for some reason
2117780, It comes from his crazy underachieving at UConn.|
Posted by Frank Longo, Tue Jan-22-13 11:21 PM
He's cared this year for sure though.
2117699, i've always been pro-drummond|
Posted by rob, Tue Jan-22-13 08:53 PM
he's done exactly what i expected him to do
2117716, none of those guys have done more this year than ed|
Posted by rob, Tue Jan-22-13 09:19 PM
i have no dog in this but just go look at the numbers. he's as good this season as ibaka and larry sanders and is still getting used to being a starter. he's looked like the best player on the court in stretches.
most are just in your head because they have had the pt for a while like vucevic, hickson, tyreke, and parsons. of those only hickson has a higher PER, and that's because nobody else on his team looks for boards. and their bench is shit.
and some...like fucking lin and fucking derozan and fucking brandon knight aren't even plus players at their position.
so yes, it's not impossible to put him at 25, even if 30 is reasonable too. 40 is just hating.
wall and drummond are better but have had limits on their playing time this year. kemba is on the same career trajectory. those are the only 3 that legitimately excite me more than ed. i assume one of them is the ghost at 23.
>Andre Drummond (yep, already)
>Debatable, but I'd err on their side:
>Ed Davis can compete for a spot in the Top 40 Under 25. Which,
>considering how awful he was toward the end of his college
>career and at the beginning of his pro career, is already a
>massive achievement. He's vying for a top 40 spot based on his
>last month of play. But c'mon @ the top 25. Even UNC fans are
>giving that a "fuck outta here" face.
2117174, I didn't know John Wall was 26 (please verify)...|
Posted by builtfromwax, Tue Jan-22-13 12:17 PM
2117177, i'm just the messenger|
Posted by Basaglia, Tue Jan-22-13 12:20 PM
2117385, I would guess he's #11|
Posted by bentagain, Tue Jan-22-13 02:16 PM
2117186, LULZ @ 18 players under 25 being better than Boogie Cousins. FOH|
Posted by AnonymousCoward, Tue Jan-22-13 12:26 PM
2117301, No Duck Sauce on the menu I see n/m|
Posted by Bombastic, Tue Jan-22-13 01:29 PM
2117537, Top 50 Duck Sauce|
Posted by theothursdays, Tue Jan-22-13 04:20 PM
2117305, BROLO... The league is in good hands though, lot of great talent here|
Posted by rjc27, Tue Jan-22-13 01:31 PM
2117313, Eric Bledsoe at 25 means whoever made this list doesn't watch|
Posted by bentagain, Tue Jan-22-13 01:34 PM
and I'm tired of DRose's name still being on lists like this
I actually laughed at Brook Lopez
2117345, y are u tired of seeing Rose on lists like this? I'm confused by that|
Posted by rjc27, Tue Jan-22-13 01:48 PM
as far as Lopez... the Nets are 10 games over .500. He missed 7 games, they were 2-5 in those 7 games. 19/7 with 2.5 blocks per game. A 7 footer with actual game offensively. How could he not make anyones list of top 25 players under 25?
>and I'm tired of DRose's name still being on lists like this
>I actually laughed at Brook Lopez
2117390, Because he hasn't played 1 minute this season|
Posted by bentagain, Tue Jan-22-13 02:20 PM
and nobody knows what type of player he will be when he returns
the DRose that played last year, sure
but then he would be like 2 or 3 on the list
so it's even more confusing where he's placed
if you're basing this on an MVP player?
it's like somebody saying Bynum is the 2nd best C in the league
Brook's a good player
it's just reading the names
there's franchise player, franchise player
just made me laugh is all
2117395, on a top 25 list not everyone will win an mvp|
Posted by rjc27, Tue Jan-22-13 02:21 PM
2117545, John Wall is not on this list, why is DRose?|
Posted by bentagain, Tue Jan-22-13 04:32 PM
I'm guessing they're basing DRose's inclusion on the assumption that he will return to form
which IMO, would have him ranked 2, behind Durant
and to not have John Wall on the list at all
kind makes the whole thing suspect
there are rookies on this list, half way through the season
and yet, John Wall put up 16 and 8 for 2 full seasons
so I'm not sure what the criteria is for including DRose
and then not ranking John Wall at all
2117368, 3 UCLA Bruins...... speak on it n/m|
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Tue Jan-22-13 02:04 PM
2117462, No championship pedigree |
Posted by FILF, Tue Jan-22-13 03:10 PM
2117529, and Kyrie Irving got a championship pedigree????|
Posted by Warren Coolidge, Tue Jan-22-13 04:12 PM
2117740, in the top half too...|
Posted by LAbeathustla, Tue Jan-22-13 09:39 PM
2117398, first of all, who was #11? lol|
Posted by cgonz00cc, Tue Jan-22-13 02:22 PM
second of all only Love, Durant, and Harden fucking with Moose's WARP #
third of all make space for andre drummond next year
2117453, #11 is faried.|
Posted by Basaglia, Tue Jan-22-13 03:06 PM
2117464, ahh...not sure id have him above Moose but whatever|
Posted by cgonz00cc, Tue Jan-22-13 03:11 PM
2117411, Batum & Young, exact same age height and weight|
Posted by Government Name, Tue Jan-22-13 02:34 PM
2117535, yeah except they're not. actually|
Posted by theothursdays, Tue Jan-22-13 04:19 PM
2117562, RE: ESPN Best Players under 25 list and debate. I'm just the messenger|
Posted by Bombastic, Tue Jan-22-13 04:52 PM
2117669, the hate for John Wall is disgusting|
Posted by ISmashedYourBitch, Tue Jan-22-13 08:03 PM
nigga will be better than all when it is said and done
2117687, I agree that he unquestionably should be on this list.|
Posted by Frank Longo, Tue Jan-22-13 08:36 PM
Even those who don't believe in him should put him back near #20. There is no reason for players like Ed Davis and even my beloved Larry Sanders to be above John Wall.
2117715, right? ed davis but not john wall?|
Posted by bshelly, Tue Jan-22-13 09:17 PM
2117787, i wouldn't say all but He should definitely be on the list. |
Posted by Radio Rahim, Tue Jan-22-13 11:29 PM
2117738, no Kemba? this list is meaningless|
Posted by Ill Jux, Tue Jan-22-13 09:35 PM