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Forum nameOkay Sports
Topic subjectSoE: Joe Posnanski's HOF ballot
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2104799
2104799, SoE: Joe Posnanski's HOF ballot
Posted by Walleye, Mon Jan-07-13 08:35 AM
Too long to swipe. I did like this though:

"There is no question that Walker's home-road splits are over the top:

Home: .320/.374/.546
Road: .277/.330/.459

But still oh, wait, those aren't Larry Walker's home-road splits. Those are Jim Rice's. Sorry.

Home: .348/.430/.637
Road: .278/.370/.495

Ah, right, those are Walker's splits. But since those are just super-sized versions of Jim Rice's splits anyway -- and Rice just got voted into the Hall of Fame -- I don't think they are disqualifiers. Walker was a terrific all-around player who stood out in a crazy offensive era."

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40867256/
2104802, sorry, we're not going to use one mistake to further devalue the HoF
Posted by bshelly, Mon Jan-07-13 08:40 AM
2104803, Is that what inducting Larry Walker would do?
Posted by Walleye, Mon Jan-07-13 08:45 AM
69.7 bWAR puts him right ahead of Derek Jeter and ties him with Frank Thomas. Does Jeter need a solid 2013 to make him Hall of Fame worthy?

He's not making the Rice error a standard for admission, just pointing out that the standard burn for Walker's case isn't applied with particularly even-ness. And he's right.
2104805, YES
Posted by bshelly, Mon Jan-07-13 08:53 AM
>Does Jeter need a solid 2013 to make him
>Hall of Fame worthy?

Just kidding

>He's not making the Rice error a standard for admission, just
>pointing out that the standard burn for Walker's case isn't
>applied with particularly even-ness. And he's right.

But in doing the latter, isn't he doing the former? Anytime you say, well, we can't write this guy off because he compares favorably to Jim Rice, Jim Rice is closer to becoming a standard. HE SHALL NOT PASS.
2104811, No
Posted by Walleye, Mon Jan-07-13 09:05 AM
>But in doing the latter, isn't he doing the former?

No. He's observing that park effects shouldn't be a stick with which to whap players on unfashionable teams.

Walker also compiled 73.2 fWAR. While Posnanski was excluding poorly-applied arguments, he could have added the one where we rarely bother to think of corner outfielders as good defenders. And if he'd use Rice as the counterweight for that one, I'd be just as pleased with his work.
2104841, Playing time was also a big issue with Walker
Posted by Call It Anything, Mon Jan-07-13 10:41 AM
He's right around 8,000 PA. That puts him in the Duke Snider/Kirby Puckett realm. Another two guys that don't make me feel warm and fuzzy about comparisons. I go back and forth on him.

For the moment, I have Walker in. But I think he might be the first guy that I jettison when the ballot starts getting crowded.

My old college roommate was a member of the BBWAA. He moved over to football and decided that he wasn't going to keep up his BBWAA membership. I pleaded with him to keep it for ten years and even went so far as to write him a check for the dues.
2104847, This was another good part of Posnanski's piece
Posted by Walleye, Mon Jan-07-13 10:50 AM
>For the moment, I have Walker in. But I think he might be the
>first guy that I jettison when the ballot starts getting
>crowded.

His article was one of the few that acknowledged what really shouldn't be a complex issue for people who are trained to write, but has turned out that way: that there are players on this ballot who can easily fit Hall of Fame standards but can get crowded out by ten superior players.

I'm good with Raines, Trammell, Martinez, Walker, Bonds, Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, McGwire, and Biggio. I wouldn't be upset with McGriff, Palmeiro, Sosa, or, actually, Kenny Lofton. It's kind of a relief to not have to order all of those guys and then leave some off.
2104853, RE: This was another good part of Posnanski's piece
Posted by Call It Anything, Mon Jan-07-13 11:01 AM
>I'm good with Raines, Trammell, Martinez, Walker, Bonds,
>Clemens, Piazza, Schilling, McGwire, and Biggio. I wouldn't be
>upset with McGriff, Palmeiro, Sosa, or, actually, Kenny
>Lofton. It's kind of a relief to not have to order all of
>those guys and then leave some off.

Sounds right. The way I see it, PED issues aside, I think Bonds, Bagwell, Biggio, Clemens, Piazza, and Schilling are so far above the line that it shouldn't be an issue. Although the first person that I told that to said that he wasn't sold on Schilling.

Including that, the 14 guys that you listed were guys that I could vote for and wouldn't be upset if they were listed on a ballot.

Then there's Jack Morris and Lee Smith. I couldn't vote for them, but I think I understand why other people do.
2104857, Your understanding is an act of grace and charity
Posted by Walleye, Mon Jan-07-13 11:10 AM
>Then there's Jack Morris and Lee Smith. I couldn't vote for
>them, but I think I understand why other people do.

Actually, I get the Smith thing. It's people who don't want to answer the question "what do we do with high-leverage relievers?" with "treat them like part-time players" even though that's probably the best answer. What I'd be curious to see is the overlap between people who cast votes for Smith and Fingers and Gossage and Eckersley, etc. and people who wouldn't vote for, say, Edgar Martinez. I suspect it's more substantial than it should be.

I understand the Morris thing because the people who think Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer keep using words to explain their argument and I can read words if they're typed in English. That's the limit of my understanding. In the category of "right-handed starters who once wore a Twins' uniform" he wasn't even the best on the 2012 ballot.
2104866, RE: Your understanding is an act of grace and charity
Posted by Call It Anything, Mon Jan-07-13 11:19 AM
>>Then there's Jack Morris and Lee Smith. I couldn't vote for
>>them, but I think I understand why other people do.
>
>Actually, I get the Smith thing. It's people who don't want to
>answer the question "what do we do with high-leverage
>relievers?" with "treat them like part-time players" even
>though that's probably the best answer. What I'd be curious to
>see is the overlap between people who cast votes for Smith and
>Fingers and Gossage and Eckersley, etc. and people who
>wouldn't vote for, say, Edgar Martinez. I suspect it's more
>substantial than it should be.

On that note, I really hope that Billy Wagner touches 50% when his time comes. I don't necessarily think that he's a HOF pitcher, but I think that he's every bit as good as Lee Smith was at what he did.

>I understand the Morris thing because the people who think
>Jack Morris is a Hall of Famer keep using words to explain
>their argument and I can read words if they're typed in
>English. That's the limit of my understanding. In the category
>of "right-handed starters who once wore a Twins' uniform" he
>wasn't even the best on the 2012 ballot.

Every year now I look at the list of Opening Day starters and see who is adding to their HOF resume.