LeBron
Durant
CP3
Howard
Rose

If we're talking top 5, I don't see how you can argue for anyone else

Melo
Wade - got about 3 great years left IMO, then he's just good
Deron
Rondo - he's proved it
Kobe - for now, but probably his last year on this list
Love
Westbrook - could probably build a team around him, won't get a chance to with Durant, but I think he's shown enough

Not just yet:
Bynum - could be there real soon, probably this year
Kyrie - likely on his way
Wall - can still happen
Big Cuz - if he ever gets his shit together, he has the potential
Unibrow

Dirk is still very good, but not great anymore, Blake I don't think could ever be a true centerpiece, I could see making an argument for TP, but I just don't see how he's on those other guys' level.

Player.

Sadly, I don't think he will ever be the same.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt until I see him play again.

ever being a franchise player again and wouldn't include him until he displays otherwise.

His stay on that list was tenuous to begin with based on size/style of play & the wear-and-tear already beginning to show this season pre-ACL.

It's possible that he could come back from it and still be elite, and he was a franchise player the last time he was on the court, so I included him on there. It's really negligible at this point, no one will know until he plays.

.

You're right

Saying you would take Rose is downplaying his injury.

.

A player to build any team around? A player to build a playoff team around? A playoff to build a title contender around?

I think if you mean the last one, there are *maybe* 7-8 players, max.

To me, it's a player that you could build around to compete for a championship, someone that can be the centerpiece on a championship winning team. And I'd agree that it's a very small list. I think the players I listed, in the right situation, could lead a team to a title and be the best player on it. That's what I would consider a franchise player, someone that, in the right situation, gives you a shot at a chip.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

the Sixers are definitely building their team around him

We saw what he could do last season w/o a training camp...and playing w/Kobe who took 2x as many shots as he did...(Bynum averaged 13 shots per gm)...19ppg 12rpg 2blocks 56%FG earned him 1st Team All NBA Honors

now, he's on a squad where he's w/o question the focal point of the offense, I see him putting up no less than 22-25ppg 13rpg...

and lets not forget he's only 26 yrs old. I say he's clearly become a franchise player.

>the Sixers are definitely building their team around him
>
>We saw what he could do last season w/o a training camp...and
>playing w/Kobe who took 2x as many shots as he did...(Bynum
>averaged 13 shots per gm)...19ppg 12rpg 2blocks 56%FG earned
>him 1st Team All NBA Honors
>
>now, he's on a squad where he's w/o question the focal point
>of the offense, I see him putting up no less than 22-25ppg
>13rpg...
>
>and lets not forget he's only 26 yrs old. I say he's clearly
>become a franchise player.

I don't disagree with any of this, but since he hasn't done any of that yet, I didn't put him on there just yet.

when his playoff record is shakey at best. This past season with the Clippers was only his 2nd time getting out of the first round and he's never been out of the second round. compared to all of the other elite point guards he's had the least amount of playoff success. People will want to COP PLEAS about his teammates, but I remember in 2008 when Paul had his "breakout" season and a lot of people were saying he deserved MVP and the Lakers window was supposedly closing and the Hornets were going to have the West on lock for the next several years but it didn't happen. Despite having homecourt advantage the Hornets lost in the second round in 7 games to an old broken down ass Spurs team that got dusted by Kobe and the Lakers in the next round. The next year the Hornets lost 4-1 in the first round to Carmelo's Nuggets, they didn't even make the playoffs in 2010, they lost in the first round in 2011 to a Laker team that got swept in the second round about Dallas. And of course this past season Paul's Clippers got swept in the second round by Parker's Spurs.

I'm just trying to figure how Chris Paul gets to leapfrog over people like Parker, Carmelo and Kobe that BEAT him in the playoffs not to mention a lot of other people like Wade, Rondo, and Westbrook that have accomplished way more than him.

His squad was garbage and he made it a legit series.

He's automatic because he's the best PG in the NBA at a time where there's a shit ton of good pg's. I'm not saying playoff wins are meaningless, but I don't see it as the ultimate measuring stick or the difference between Parker making this list over Paul. Put Chris Paul on the Spurs and they're a much better team. I really don't see how you can't put him first among points.

>He's automatic because he's the best PG in the NBA

players and has at times overachieved w/those players a la the series vs LA in 2011...that NO team had no business pushing that Laker squad to the brink...but they did because Paul was getting the best out of his 2nd and 3rd tier teammates...


Parker, Rose, Westbrook, Williams, Rondo ALL HAVE AND HAVE HAD A BETTER SUPPORTING CAST

Deron's teammates in Utah but guess who had more success in the playoffs?

These are just some of the (BEST) players D-Will has played w/while in Utah starting from 2008 til 2010-11 season
-Kirilenko (1 All Star team/3 All nba defensive teams)
-Boozer (made several all star teams)
-Ronnie Brewer
-C.J. Price
-Paul Milsap
-Mehmet Okur
-Kyle Korver (amongst the best 3 pt shooters in the league)
-Raja Bell
-Devin Harris (very solid player who can play both guard positions)
-Derrick Favors
-Al Jefferson (close to a 20/10 player)


Ok, now here's some of Paul's teammates starting w/the 2008 season since that was the season his team finished 1st in their division
-Birdman (role player)
-Tyson Chandler (glorified role player)
-Bobby Jackson (role player)
-David West (1x all star team)
-Jannero Pargo (role player)
-Mo Peterson (role player)
-Peja (past his prime at this point)
-James Posey (stole money from the organization/last seen on a milk carton)
-Treva Ariza (role player)
-Emeka Okafor (never materialized into the player he was drafted to be)
-Carl Landry (yep role player)


Now, looking at their respective rosters, I don't see how you can honestly say their teams have been the same as far as talent. Williams has played w/players who have made All Star teams and others who may not have been all stars but were amongst the best players at their position (Al Jefferson/Devin Harris) while Paul, on the other hand, only played w/ONE all star player his entire time in New Orleans (David West and he made it only 1x)...this is why Utah was picked the finish higher than New Orleans every season both players were on those teams.

>These are just some of the players D-Will has played w/while
>in Utah starting from 2008 til 2010-11 season
>-Kirilenko (1 All Star team/3 All nba defensive teams)

he was an All-Star in 2004 before Deron got there and has been injury prone and never been the same since...

>-Boozer (made several all star teams)

and you see how he's looking now without Deron...

and you coulda stop right there...

>-Ronnie Brewer
>-C.J. Price
>-Paul Milsap
>-Mehmet Okur
>-Kyle Korver (amongst the best 3 pt shooters in the league)
>-Raja Bell
>-Devin Harris (very solid player who can play both guard
>positions)
>-Derrick Favors

lol, Deron was traded FOR Harris and Favors, they never played together dumbass

>-Al Jefferson (close to a 20/10 player)

he only played a little over half the season with Al before he was traded


>Ok, now here's some of Paul's teammates starting w/the 2008
>season since that was the season his team finished 1st in
>their division
>-Birdman (role player)
>-Tyson Chandler (glorified role player)

Oh you mean the current defensive player of the year that was that starting center on the NBA Champion Mavs and US National Team World Championship and Olympic gold medal squads?

>-Bobby Jackson (role player)
>-David West (1x all star team)

West was 2X All-Star, not that you let anything like FACTS get in your way...

>-Jannero Pargo (role player)
>-Mo Peterson (role player)
>-Peja (past his prime at this point)

former multi-All-Star and MVP candidate who was key role player later for Dallas title team

>-James Posey (stole money from the organization/last seen on a
>milk carton)

Key role player on 2 different title teams before coming to NO

>-Treva Ariza (role player)

and Key role player on a championship squad

>-Emeka Okafor (never materialized into the player he was
>drafted to be)

still a better than average big man

>-Carl Landry (yep role player)

another pretty good role player that have averaged in double-digits his entire career

>Now, looking at their respective rosters, I don't see how you
>can honestly say their teams have been the same as far as
>talent. Williams has played w/players who have made All Star
>teams and others who may not have been all stars but were
>amongst the best players at their position (Al Jefferson/Devin
>Harris)

lol, just stop it

>>These are just some of the players D-Will has played
>w/while
>>in Utah starting from 2008 til 2010-11 season
>>-Kirilenko (1 All Star team/3 All nba defensive teams)
>
>he was an All-Star in 2004 before Deron got there and has been
>injury prone and never been the same since..

Oh, so he fell off in just one season because D-Will joined the team in the 2005 season lol...Kirilenko was still a very good player when Deron came to the team
>
>>-Boozer (made several all star teams)
>
>and you see how he's looking now without Deron...

he was a 20/10 player BEFORE D-Will joined the team in case you forgot
>
>and you coulda stop right there...
>
>>-Ronnie Brewer
>>-C.J. Price
>>-Paul Milsap
>>-Mehmet Okur
>>-Kyle Korver (amongst the best 3 pt shooters in the league)
>>-Raja Bell
>>-Devin Harris (very solid player who can play both guard
>>positions)
>>-Derrick Favors
>
>lol, Deron was traded FOR Harris and Favors, they never played
>together dumbass
>
>>-Al Jefferson (close to a 20/10 player)
>
>he only played a little over half the season with Al before he
>was traded
>
>
>>Ok, now here's some of Paul's teammates starting w/the 2008
>>season since that was the season his team finished 1st in
>>their division
>>-Birdman (role player)
>>-Tyson Chandler (glorified role player)
>
>Oh you mean the current defensive player of the year that was
>that starting center on the NBA Champion Mavs and US National
>Team World Championship and Olympic gold medal squads?

bwahahaha how many ALL DEFENSIVE TEAMS did he make while in New Orleans? ok
>
>>-Bobby Jackson (role player)
>>-David West (1x all star team)
>
>West was 2X All-Star, not that you let anything like FACTS get
>in your way...

ok, 2x he made it and he was the best player Paul has played with which should tell you why no one holds it against him that he couldn't get past the elite teams in the west. Boozer in Utah>>>>>>West
>
>>-Jannero Pargo (role player)
>>-Mo Peterson (role player)
>>-Peja (past his prime at this point)
>
>former multi-All-Star and MVP candidate who was key role
>player later for Dallas title team

the key word in your statement is "former"....he was a shell of himself in New Orleans lol...and there you go lying abt him being the key role player on that Mavs team...Jason Terry/JJ Barea want to have a word w/you
>
>>-James Posey (stole money from the organization/last seen on
>a
>>milk carton)
>
>Key role player on 2 different title teams before coming to
>NO

yeah, but dumbass we ain't talking abt what he did prior but how he played while in NO...and he didn't do anything memorable while he was there which is why they practically GAVE HIM AWAY to the Pacers. GMs bought into his exaggerated defensive ability while in Boston and OVERPAID him 25 million (did he ever average at least 15ppg in his career?)
>
>>-Treva Ariza (role player)
>
>and Key role player on a championship squad
>
>>-Emeka Okafor (never materialized into the player he was
>>drafted to be)
>
>still a better than average big man

yeah oh lmao...Paul should have gone to at least 5 WCF w/Okafor
>
>>-Carl Landry (yep role player)
>
>another pretty good role player that have averaged in
>double-digits his entire career

you tryin too hard...
>
>>Now, looking at their respective rosters, I don't see how
>you
>>can honestly say their teams have been the same as far as
>>talent. Williams has played w/players who have made All Star
>>teams and others who may not have been all stars but were
>>amongst the best players at their position (Al
>Jefferson/Devin
>>Harris)
>
>lol, just stop it

Again, which of the two has played w/the better, more accomplished players? David West is the ONLY player besides Paul to make an All Star team in NO...and most ppl wouldn't even say he was an elite player then. Just like you try and credit Boozer's success w/D-Will, even though Boozer was putting up numbers pre-D-Will which is why Utah paid him that huge contract, the same can be said of West who hasn't had nearly the same success he did playing w/Paul

my whole thing is, if Chris Paul is so great at making his teammates "better" as you all say, why did almost all the guys you listed except for West play better on other teams?

http://clipperblog.com/2012/09/03/the-chris-paul-bump/

The Chris Paul Bump
Posted by D.J. Foster on September 3, 2012 at 4:09 pm

When evaluating the offseason for the Clippers, it’s become commonplace to assume that every player will see a “bump” in their production, simply because they’ll be playing next to Chris Paul. This requires little explanation — Paul is one of the best “pure” point guards to ever grace the floor, and by definition, he makes everything easier on his teammates.

The question isn’t whether Chris Paul helps his teammates, it’s how much he helps his teammates. That’s a tricky thing to quantify for a variety of reasons (coaching, other teammates, injuries, etc.), but let’s give it a shot.

With apologies to Kirk Snyder and Devin Brown, let’s start in 2007-2008, when New Orleans had a regular starting shooting guard (Morris Peterson) and Paul was entering his third year and playing at a level similar to how he is now.

This was the year the Hornets went 56-26 and finished one game away from reaching the Western Conference Finals. You may remember Morris Peterson from his Flintstone days at Michigan State, or from his time next to Vince Carter in Toronto. At 30 years old in 2007-08, Peterson was on his last legs, but it didn’t stop him from starting all 76 games he played in.

Here’s what Morris Peterson did in his season sharing a backcourt with Paul:

Shot a career-best 39.4 percent from the 3-point line
Posted a near career-low in free throw attempts per-36 minutes
Recorded his third-best True Shooting Percentage at 54.9 percent
In Paul’s next season with the Hornets, Rasual Butler would assume the starting shooting guard position for the Hornets. In addition to being quite possibly the worst interview in professional sports, Butler was a volume shooter from behind the arc. Still the Clippers’ single-season record holder for most 3-pointers made, Butler earned his future playing time for his performance during the 2008-09 season, his first as a regular starter next to Paul. For continuity, we’ll only judge Rasual Butler’s seasons where he played over 700 minutes (8 seasons total):

Highest career field goal percentage at 43.3 percent
Highest 3-point percentage at 39 percent
Best True Shooting Percentage at 54.1 percent
Highest career PER at 11.8
Since the Hornets trotted out Devin Brown, the corpse of Mo-Pete and a young Marcus Thornton in 2009-10 and more importantly, since Paul missed half of the year with injury, let’s move on to the 2010-11 season — Paul’s last in New Orleans.

Starting next to Paul in 69 games that year was Marco Belinelli — a guy getting his first chance at real starting time. Like Peterson and Butler before him, Marco Belinelli experienced the best percentages of his young career in the 2010-11 season.

Career-best 41.4 percent (!) from the 3-point line
Highet True Shooting Percentage at 56 percent
Second highest season PER at 12.1
Before we move on, let’s look at Paul’s backcourt mate for the majority of the season last year, Randy Foye.

Second best 3-point percentage at 38.6 percent
Career worst 1.8 FTA per 36-minutes
Second highest True Shooting Percentage at 52.2 percent
Through four years of players and data (Peterson, Butler, Belinelli, Foye), we can see that starting next to Paul provides a substantial “bump” in 3-point percentage and True Shooting Percentage. These four players often remained average or declined in free throw attempts per-36 minutes — a function of having the ball in their hands less and spending more time as a spot-up shooter.

Again though, we already knew that. Now let’s get to the good part — what is the exact “bump” in shooting percentages when starting next to Paul?

Here, we’ll find the combined 3-point shooting percentage for the four players (Peterson, Butler, Belinelli, Foye) in all of their non-Paul seasons. Then, we’ll compare that number to their combined percentage while starting next to Paul.

Without Paul: 36.1 percent from behind the arc (2144 3PM – 5924 3PA).

Starting next to Paul: 39.5 percent from behind the arc (514 3PM, 1299 3PA).

At least from this sample size of four players, the 3-point shooting percentage bump when playing next to Paul is a whopping 3.4 percent. That’s an incredible difference. The league average 3-point percentage for shooting guards last year was 35.8 percent, according to Hoopdata.com. What we can gather from this sample size (albeit limited) is that starting next to Paul can bump a player from being a league average 3-point shooter to a Top 10 guy at the shooting guard position.

Although this study has Stanley Roberts impersonating the Kool-Aid Man type holes, it gives you a general idea of the benefits that come from having an elite distributor at the point guard position.

Although it’s dangerous to automatically assume Jamal Crawford (for example) will leap to a 38.2 percent three-point shooter instead of a 34.8 percent shooter, you can reasonably accept that whoever starts next to Paul this season will receive that “Chris Paul bump” that’s very, very real.

Damn Truth....U on that Mr. Maxx...lol

U really hate Paul....

That's some real, old fashion hate....lol

he gets automatically elevated above peers that have accomplished way more than him.

>he gets automatically elevated above peers that have
>accomplished way more than him.


Because most of them have had better teams?

And most observers have seen when Paul single-handedly battled superior teams like those Laker squads...

I know it's about winning...But u can't look the other way when a player is basically THE TEAM...I think Paul's time with the Clippers (if he stays) will be the overall judgement on his legacy...

But as if right now, Paul is a franchise player...

>And most observers have seen when Paul single-handedly battled
>superior teams like those Laker squads...

lol, wth does that even mean?

absolutely nothing

While also leading the league in steals. He is also the dependable clutch player that people wish their favourite player was.

who do you think is better?

based on?

His numbers speak for itself. He can take over games in the clutch, score as well or better than any other pg and can pass just as well, put people in scoring position, and play solid defense. Really, the only other point that could compare to him is Deron, and right now, he's not better.

Yes, of course it's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion that not getting to the conference finals makes him inferior to other pg's.

Also, I'll ask again, who do you think is better?

And do you think CP3 is not a franchise player?

>Yes, of course it's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion
>that not getting to the conference finals makes him inferior
>to other pg's.

at least my opinion is based on something other than my feelings

>Also, I'll ask again, who do you think is better?

I think its highly debatable depending on the criteria you choose, arguments could be made for Rose, Rondo, Parker, Westbrook, Nash or Deron.

>And do you think CP3 is not a franchise player?

What is your definition of a "franchise player"?

>>Yes, of course it's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion
>>that not getting to the conference finals makes him inferior
>>to other pg's.
>
>at least my opinion is based on something other than my
>feelings

It is? Is your opinion based on anything more tangible than mine? How?

>>Also, I'll ask again, who do you think is better?
>
>I think its highly debatable depending on the criteria you
>choose, arguments could be made for Rose, Rondo, Parker,
>Westbrook, Nash or Deron.

So what is your criteria then? I still don't understand how you determine one player to be better than another. It's gotta be more than playoff success, otherwise you'd be saying Robert Horry is GOAT.

>>And do you think CP3 is not a franchise player?
>
>What is your definition of a "franchise player"?
>
Post 7

WOULD HAVE done of they had so-and-so's team.

I prefer to look at what people have actually accomplished.

and that carrying significantly more weight than anything else is being shortsighted. Was LeBron not the best player in the league when he kept losing in Cleveland?

If you watch a random game of basketball you can tell who is better than who without taking into consideration the teams' record or past successes or failures. Chris Paul has a more complete game than any other pg. Westbrook may drive the lane better, and you could argue Rondo is a better passer, but Paul is undoubtedly a better floor general and passer than Westbrook, and much better offensively than Rondo. So would you rather have one of them run point on your team because they've been to the Finals before?

Stats and common sense support the idea the Paul is better than any other point in the league.

in the ECF that year against Detroit, people had just been waiting on him to follow up and that and he finally did.


>and that carrying significantly more weight than anything
>else is being shortsighted. Was LeBron not the best player in
>the league when he kept losing in Cleveland?
>
>If you watch a random game of basketball you can tell who is
>better than who without taking into consideration the teams'
>record or past successes or failures. Chris Paul has a more
>complete game than any other pg. Westbrook may drive the lane
>better, and you could argue Rondo is a better passer, but Paul
>is undoubtedly a better floor general and passer than
>Westbrook, and much better offensively than Rondo. So would
>you rather have one of them run point on your team because
>they've been to the Finals before?

And both of those guys are better defenders than Chris Paul, unfortunately defense doesn't show up in PER and win share stats.

>Stats and common sense support the idea the Paul is better
>than any other point in the league.

okayplayer.

>And both of those guys are better defenders than Chris Paul,
>unfortunately defense doesn't show up in PER and win share
>stats.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

Even if they were better, are they that much better that you gonna take them over Chris? Idgaf about win share, nor did I ever mention it. He crystal fucking clearly put up better across the board numbers than any other point last year. He has the best all around game of any point, which I know because I've seen them all play numerous times and the general consensus backs that up. If you don't agree because he's a few wins shy of your playoff benchmark, cool, if you think Rondo or Westbrook or Parker is better, okay, but I don't think any GM's evaluate players or build teams that way, and remember playoff success is just another metric, no different than points, assists or anything else, so miss me with all the feelings and opinions shit.

>
>>He's automatic because he's the best PG in the NBA

Because, Blake G. is the best player Paul has ever played with...And he's only been on the Clippers for a year...

On the real, I'm a dude that (pre injury) would have picked Rose before Paul...But for anyone to insist that Paul is not a franchise player that's a bit unreasonable...

Yep, I'm a Bulls fan...But as a die hard basketball fan I would have loved to see Paul play with the talent level of say Tim Duncan or a young Ginolbli (Tony Parker), Garnett, Jesus, and Paul P. (Rondo) or even Nash when he had a healthy STAT...

Paul carried those shaky Hornets teams against other squads that were vastly better...

I thought most basketball fans was aware of that...

is debatable

but

what isn't debatable is that his type of game is a lot easier to surround w/quality teammates vs Carmelo, Kobe, and Wesbrook. As someone said in a reply in this same post, point guards usually aren't expected to lead their teams to championships...

to some Paul is the exception only because the consensus says he's the best pg in the league but history shows that championship teams aren't usually led by their point guards but as of RIGHT TODAY, if I had to choose btw Paul/Melo/Kobe/Westbrook to start a team, I'm going w/the guy who doesn't mind getting others involved where as the other players mentioned are selfish and try and win games by themselves by jacking up bad shot after bad shot.

>what isn't debatable is that his type of game is a lot easier
>to surround w/quality teammates vs Carmelo, Kobe, and
>Wesbrook.

if its so easy why hasn't he had as much playoff success as those guys or any of the other elite point guards

>As someone said in a reply in this same post, point
>guards usually aren't expected to lead their teams to
>championships...

I think a couple of guys named Earvin and Isiah may question that...


>to some Paul is the exception only because the consensus says
>he's the best pg in the league

again, based on WHAT?

>but history shows that
>championship teams aren't usually led by their point guards

Billups and Parker may disagree with that too. And really other recent Finals MVP's like Wade, Kobe and Lebron who didn't officially have the "point guard" title but were the primarily ballhandlers and playmakers on their teams.

>but as of RIGHT TODAY, if I had to choose btw
>Paul/Melo/Kobe/Westbrook to start a team, I'm going w/the guy
>who doesn't mind getting others involved where as the other
>players mentioned are selfish and try and win games by
>themselves by jacking up bad shot after bad shot.

You're basically talking in circles, you're saying pg's don't lead teams to championships but if you're starting a team you're to take a pg that has never come close to winning anything.

>>what isn't debatable is that his type of game is a lot
>easier
>>to surround w/quality teammates vs Carmelo, Kobe, and
>>Wesbrook.
>
>if its so easy why hasn't he had as much playoff success as
>those guys or any of the other elite point guards

which team has he been on that was predicted to go deep in the postseason? (I'll wait)...the other players have been on good to really good teams.
>
>>As someone said in a reply in this same post, point
>>guards usually aren't expected to lead their teams to
>>championships...
>
>I think a couple of guys named Earvin and Isiah may question
>that...

yeah, and how many yrs ago was that? ok...
>
>
>>to some Paul is the exception only because the consensus
>says
>>he's the best pg in the league
>
>again, based on WHAT?

because he's better, plain and simple lmao...he's a better shooter than ALL the pgs w/the exception of maybe D-Will and he's no less the 2nd best passing point guard in the league...and he's led the league in steals several seasons while no other point guard can say the same...oh, and he's regarded as the BEST leader of any player in the league, including the point guards ppl compare him to.
>
>>but history shows that
>>championship teams aren't usually led by their point guards
>
>Billups and Parker may disagree with that too. And really
>other recent Finals MVP's like Wade, Kobe and Lebron who
>didn't officially have the "point guard" title but were the
>primarily ballhandlers and playmakers on their teams.

wtf - Billups didn't *lead* the Pistons to the championship, that is the one team in nba history that didn't have a definitive BEST player on its squad. Some nights it was Rip, other times it was Rasheed and everyone knows Ben Wallace was the heart and soul of that team, not to mention the defensive anchor which was that team's bread and butter during their title run...and Parker played w/this guy by the name of Tim Duncan who many believe is GOAT power forward...and he had another teammate from Argentina who can be the best player on the floor on any given night.
>
>>but as of RIGHT TODAY, if I had to choose btw
>>Paul/Melo/Kobe/Westbrook to start a team, I'm going w/the
>guy
>>who doesn't mind getting others involved where as the other
>>players mentioned are selfish and try and win games by
>>themselves by jacking up bad shot after bad shot.
>
>You're basically talking in circles, you're saying pg's don't
>lead teams to championships but if you're starting a team
>you're to take a pg that has never come close to winning
>anything.

because point guards typically don't lead teams to a chip and we have nba history to prove it. Isaiah Thomas was the last point guard to lead a team to a title and even he wasn't the leading scorer on those teams, Dantley was and after he was traded it was Dumars...but he had other standout players on that team as well. And this is how you have to build a championship team if the centerpiece of that team is your point guard. Paul can't be the team's leading scorer and leading assist man if the Clippers are ever going to make a serious run for a championship...he needs another offensive player to shoulder some of the offensive load but that doesn't mean he still won't be the team's best player (just like Nash was in Phoenix when he won those MVPS, Amare and Marion were the scorers)

>...oh, and he's
>regarded as the BEST leader of any player in the league,
>including the point guards ppl compare him to.
>>


there's a leadership ranking now?

to answer your question, here's a quote from a Clipper executive talking abt what Paul brings to their organization besides being a terrific pg...I have tons of other links that talk first and foremost abt his leadership than his stats but I'm at work right now but I can post them later.

And again, who in the league would you say is a better LEADER?
Lebron? nope
Kobe? cmon
Rondo? Shaq said in his book his acerbic criticisms of teammates alienates his teammates (see: Ray Allen)
D-Will? outstanding pg but he's not a better leader
Melo? lol

I've seen Paul get in teammates face when they're messing up on the court and yet, he does it in a way where he's not trying to show them up which is why they respond to him the way they do

There was never one moment when Chris Paul should have secured the 2012 Most Valuable Player award. There were several.
Paul leads the league in steals (2.4 per game) and is third in assists (9.0). He scores 19.3 points, grabs 3.5 rebounds, turns the ball over 2.1 times per game (a career-low) and has shot 36.9% from 3-point range in 36.3 minutes.

But it's not just about conventional statistics, Heat forward Lebron James, with gaudy numbers across the board, and Oklahoma City's shooting star Kevin Durant would win that argument every time.

It's about Paul's value; what he's meant to a Clippers organization that until this season, the first with Paul manning the controls, had just two seasons with a record of .500 or better in 34 years.


It's about improvement. The Clippers are on the verge of clinching home-court advantage in the first round of the playoffs, a winning percentage (.619) exceeding the best of Bob McAdoo's Buffalo Braves teams and coming on the heels of two seasons of going a combined .372 in 164 games. They've defeated James' Heat, Kobe Bryant's Lakers, and Durant's Thunder (three times). In each of the victories, Paul emerged as arguably the best player on the court, exemplified by his daring layup around shot-blocking maven Serge Ibaka to break a tie with 8.8 seconds left against the Thunder.

Paul's shot in Oklahoma City on April 11 was the capstone in a season full of clutch plays. He won games on the final possession at home against Portland and Detroit and on the road in Philadelphia. His play in the final five minutes of games was unrivaled during this lockout shortened schedule jammed with back-to-backs, four games in five nights, and other nightmare scenarios.


READ: Best of 2011-12: Top 5 Game-winning shots from Chris Paul
Entering play Sunday, Paul has the third most points (72), most assists (23), and is 28-for-29 from the free-throw line in the final five minutes of games in which the Clippers are within five points or tied. Taking it a step further, in the final minute, with the same criteria, Paul has scored 41 points, 10 more than anyone else. Asked if his point guard was the league's most valuable player, head coach Vinny Del Negro said, "He's got to be considered in a big way because of what he's been able to do in such a short period of time here. There's no question he should be mentioned in terms of his impact on the team."

Perhaps, the biggest statement about Paul's candidacy is the effect he's had on the Clippers in just four months. The team opened training camp on December 9, acquired Paul from New Orleans on December 15, and played their first regular season game 10 days later. His imprint on the franchise was felt immediately and as Paul's dynamism on the court is easy to see, his ability to galvanize the organization as a whole is not.

When Clippers Vice President of Basketball Operations Neil Olshey talks about Paul it's not just about numbers, it's about changing a culture. The most surprising thing about the point guard he's known since he was a high school star in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, according to Olshey is his off the court demeanor.

"The way he carries himself and the way he treats everybody in the organization just makes people want to go the extra mile for him and I think that's what's been special," Olshey said. "He's brought that air of family which we've been trying to develop here."

There is no cookie-cutter formula for how to choose the NBA's most prestigious award. Is it the best player on the best team? The most statistically dominant? The most influential when the game is on the line? Or the best leader in the locker room?

In past years the answer has been more obvious than others. However, with the season closing in less than a week, it's clear that for the Clippers, Chris Paul is all of those things and more.

you pretend too or you don't know what it is you're watching lol

either way, were they expected to beat the Spurs or even take them to 6 or 7 gms? Also, Paul was clearly injured and they were simply overmatched against a Spurs team that looked as if they were going to sweep the entire playoffs.

is there another point guard who could've done any better vs the Spurs? (rhetorical question)

him
then followed it up with an unanswerable question
so basically chris paul is standing on a bunch of efficiency metrics, unquantifiable intangibles like "leadership", and a perpetual mulligan because his teams are never expected to do anything
that's where we're at with this? let me know

general are considered the LEADERS of their teams just like QBs in football so I don't see how saying Paul is the best leader of any player in the league is so far fetched considering the position he plays.

Leadership is an intangible quality to begin with and you can't measure it like you can other statistics. This comes down to the eye test and I've seen throughout his career how teammates respond to Paul, especially last season with a young Clippers team and I've watched how he'll scold teammates ON THE COURT in a way where he's not showing them up and lastly, I ask you again: who is another player you think is a better leader than him?

I've heard Stephen A. Smith say on several occassions that Paul IS THE BEST LEADER IN THE NBA SINCE ISAIAH THOMAS. I've heard Steve Kerr say Paul's leadership ability is what separates him from other pgs, other players in the league.

And how I know you didn't fully read the article is because besides the stats in the article, it talked abt his presence in the LOCKER ROOM which is where leadership is really felt.

does the nut punches get discounted like ray ray obstruction of justice?
who cares who i think is a better leader
that's my point
how do you even measure if CP3 is a better leader than say derek fisher or tim duncan or who ever
somebody saw him give a speech in the hallway?
he ice grilled d.jordan after a missed oop?
ha
you don't have to bring extra shit to strengthen your straw argument

>Leadership is an intangible quality to begin with and you
>can't measure it like you can other statistics. This comes
>down to the eye test and I've seen throughout his career how
>teammates respond to Paul, especially last season with a young
>Clippers team and I've watched how he'll scold teammates ON
>THE COURT

lol, the same shit Kobe is a bad teammate for? Did CP3 lead or SCLOD anybody in series against the spurs?

from that 2008 Hornets team:

-he made Tyson Chandler a threat on the pick and roll
-David West has game but with CP3 he was damn good
-stojakovic was at the end of the road but paul still got 3 pointers from dude.
-he played with morris peterson as a starting 2 guard
-his bench players were julian wright, hilton armstong, bobby jackson, and bonzi wells

I challenge you to name the starting 5 for the hornets 2011 playoff team

and the clippers roster isn't designed to exceed. Blake griffin offensive moves are poor. NBA players knows he's going to spin in the post. No good options at two guard, a center that cannot score even in pick and roll.

all the other point guards in the league have played with another top 10 player ( parker, westbrook) or enough good players to really exceed ( rose, celtics)

stack CP3's best supporting cast against any support cast of Parker, Westbrook, Rose, and Rondo and CP3 always has to do more with less

but for some reason it applies to Chris Paul, the best point guard of a generation, on here
kind of funny
he's an efficient player so ppl will use all kinds of metrics to explain why he's great while never succeeding
imo the clippers team last yr was good enough and they did beat a favored memphis team
but that was more about the grizz choking and hollins being a worst coach then vinny d more than anything
we'll see what cp3 can do this year with a team that generally recognized as GOOD

matter is BOTH were still regarded as FRANCHISE PLAYERS, which is what this post question is abt, despite their respective teams falling short in the postseason year after year...

Ppl forget that Isaiah was still considered an elite, franchise player long before he was surrounded with a team that could contend for a title and when the Pistons were bottom feeders.

Now, if Paul retires w/o having won a ring, he'll be amongst those great players who didn't win a chip

but

that won't mean he wasn't worthy of being regarded as a franchise player because he is. He and he alone has turned the Clippers, who have an embarrassment in the league since I was a kid, into a legitimate western contender. Now, because of him mostly, they have improved in one year, but should ppl hold that against HIM if he can't get his squad past a stacked Lakers team and OKC? I don't think so...

carmelo is a "franchise player" and has a worse playoff record
truth is just saying cp3 is elevated above other franchise players who have achieved more

He is essentially questioning Paul's status as a franchise player


>carmelo is a "franchise player" and has a worse playoff
>record
>truth is just saying cp3 is elevated above other franchise
>players who have achieved more

I'm not so sure Melo is really a franchise player though...I know some on here will say otherwise but what has he achieved individually and team-wise to earn such a status? nothing outside of playing on and winning 2 gold medals on an Olympic team that would've won w/o him anyway...has he ever made ONE 1st team ALL NBA? Has he ever been in the top 3 candidates for MVP? Paul, on the other hand, has been a serious candidate for MVP several times and SHOULD HAVE WON THE MVP THAT WAS GIVEN TO BEAN IN 2008 and he's made 1st TEAM ALL NBA before not to mention we've seen him get more out of below average talent than any player not named Lebron could've done.

and to this point abt Paul getting so called elevated over other franchise player, look at the players he compared to Paul...Kobe/Westbrook/Melo...all have been surrounded by talented players eons better than Paul has played with pre-Clippers. When the BEST player he played with the entire time he was in NO is David West, I don't see how you can hold it against him that he hasn't at least played in an NBA championship...also, at a time when the West was stacked with really good teams from top to bottom.

True for Bron...not true for AI...

No one ever shitted on AI for not taking the 76ers to the Promise Land...For God's sake...The man took a team filled with defensive players to the Finals...People shitted on AI for his attitude...Is was never his ability to "not" get it done because dude overachieved...

Bron got heat because of one simple reason...He was/is viewed as the BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME who also happened to be 6'9 and 260...AI was never considered that caliber of player...Iverson was considered a freak of nature who did way more than he should have been able to do (hence his MVP)...But come on...only delusional Sixer fans shitted on AI...No one ever thought he was going to win a ring..

Bottom line....Bron and AI were/are not in the same boat...

teams that were built around them
that much is not really debatable (i'm sure you will try though)
both were MVPs and perennial all stars so unless your argument is that CP3 is not on that level he should be held to the same standard

as legitimate mvp players on this board.

this thread specifically has people who don't think chris paul is somewhere between the 3rd and the 5th best player in the league.

that's what we're arguing.

far as i'm concerned he's fair game for bron/ai criticisms. but he's still the best point guard.

i'm saying he needs to be held accountable for his lack of playoff success
shitty teams or NOT
if the bar is set that high for exceptional players than that's what it needs to be for all exceptional players

>teams that were built around them
>that much is not really debatable (i'm sure you will try
>though)
>both were MVPs and perennial all stars so unless your argument
>is that CP3 is not on that level he should be held to the same
>standard


No...these r my points...

*Chris Paul is a franchise player...(and this is coming from someone who thought Rose was the best PG in the league)

* The "team" built around Iverson was one of the worst Finals squads ever assembled...

*Iverson was never viewed as the best player in the league (That's not what simply getting an MVP means)...

*Bron really got heat because he's been considered the best basketball player ever since he took that raggedy ass team to the Finals against the Spurs...

* U r debating about the wrong point...

as in being the centerpiece to a championship team. PGs need to be complementary players. Zeke the only exception in like 30 years.

but thats just me.

of the 5* positions on the floor to build around, that's be my last choice.

*actually as far as im concerned there's really only 3 positions in todays game. point, wing and post. its the roles of what the players do that separates it to me.

if you put paul on the lakers instead of kobe or on the spurs instead of tp i think both teams would have fared better last year and possibly won titles.

same with paul instead of westbrook, although that would be unfair.

>if you put paul on the lakers instead of kobe or on the spurs
>instead of tp i think both teams would have fared better last
>year and possibly won titles.
>
>same with paul instead of westbrook, although that would be
>unfair.

Is Chris Paul going to stop Durant and Westbrook? Because that's what beat the Lakers and Spurs. And who is playing 2 guard on this mythical Paul-for-Kobe swapped Laker championship squad? Its funny how people think Chris Paul can automatically work miracles and win all these mythical titles with everybody else's team but get swept out of the 2nd round on his own, lol

there is not a thing kobe does well in 2012 that paul doesn't do. and he'd have made them better by defending westbrook and getting more out of the all-world post he was working with in bynum and pau.

who the fuck cares who they played at sg. sessions could play sg.

>there is not a thing kobe does well in 2012 that paul doesn't
>do. and he'd have made them better by defending westbrook

He couldn't do shit with Tony Parker half the time, how the fuck is he supposed to slow Westbrook down? lol

>and
>getting more out of the all-world post he was working with in
>bynum and pau.
>
>who the fuck cares who they played at sg. sessions could play
>sg.

And they would have would won a title with a Paul/Sessions backcourt. okayplayer.

which is why he's a hard guard. but paul is still the best at his position.

and you can miss me with that kobe-sized hole in their wing rotation. it already is a hole.

yeah, a guy that was a tenth of point from the scoring title is a major hole in the roster.

FOH, assclown.

is going to involve kobe "hate" because kobe isn't that great.

it's a fact that other than bron and durant, every other nba team would be better if they switched any wing player for paul and let the rest sort itself out in a season or two.

that's the point that got us here.

you wanted to bring in some bullshit about "who the lakers gonna play at 2" when you know the lakers have failed to maximize or develop guard/wing talent during kobe's tenure. and as much as that falls on f.o. and coaching, the kobe hole surely plays a part as well.

yes he almost led the league in scoring. he also shot his lowest percentage in over a decade and took more shots per game than he ever has. so it wouldn't be out of pocket at all to dump kobe for a superior player at the point and then figure out sg later. i dare say most people would take even a paul/battier situation with that post play over sessions/kobe. i don't think paul/sessions would be all that different than what a lot of teams do these days given the amount of hybrid points out there.

so this shit really isn't about kobe. i'd take paul for parker in a minute. thunder would probably take paul for westbrook. those just wouldn't devolve into plea coppage because most nba fans here are reasonable.

>you wanted to bring in some bullshit about "who the lakers
>gonna play at 2" when you know the lakers have failed to
>maximize or develop guard/wing talent during kobe's tenure.
>and as much as that falls on f.o. and coaching, the kobe hole
>surely plays a part as well.

motherfucker is Magic on Venom.

their positional versatility separates them from conventional pgs

Worthy was the forward
Cooper and Byron Scott ran 2


you was like -2 in 1987 so I understand your lack of knowledge

Bron
Durant
Love
Rose
Bynum
Cousins
Monroe
Rondo
Paul
Deron
Monta
Iggy
Dwight Howard
Blake Griffin
Westbrook
Lamarcus

Iggy's a good player

but one thing that has been proven by his career to date

is that he is NOT a franchise player

Yep he fits right in.

Philly ruins franchise players, and as soon as they leave...

.

Iggy is a great piece to build around. Works both end of the court. Scores well and does dirty work. Flashy game good enough to get fans involved.


Monta is a killer and isn't selfish. Still young as shit too and can take over a game and is easily a top 5 shooting guard in the league.

>Monta is a killer and isn't selfish.

LOL

http://thumbs.anyclip.com/tOeKslZuF/tmb_4600_480.jpg

If he increases his assists...he on the list too...

I am holding off on him and Wall right now.

... than Kyrie got in his first, that's grounds?

lol, ok

You really trying to say a PG that got 5 assist per in his rookie year is a franchise player more than a 26 year old shooting guard who has shown that he can lead his team in scoring as well as distribute the ball well enough to best some starting point guards in the league. And add the fact that with you can put a point guard with him or run him at point in sets and he will find the open man as easily as he can score it. Common sense says Monta has shown more.


Kyrie has nice moves, I get it...

But 18/5 isn't enough from a POINT guard for me to say he is franchise yet.

You trying to clown a SHOOTING guard that both scores and gets assists, while always playing with POINTS that get more or around the same clip assists...


Monta better.

If Kyrie had a rookie year like Iverson, then I would say he is franchise...

If he progresses like Rose has then in a season or two, he will get my vote.

westbrook - 5.3
rondo- 3.8 and 5.1 his first 2 years.


rookies have to learn to play pg in the nba and most see a huge jump between 1st and 2nd year...not to mention if they are a high pick, their team likely sucks.

After their rookie seasons alone?

but thats the thing...most guys aren't franchise players after their roookie year, but they are def. showing signs. You expect a guy to make a huuuuge jump between his rookie year and his 2nd and esp. 3rd year. esp pgs.

I mean most guys aren't considered franchise players after their rookie years because they are still learning, but a guy 7 years in aint gonna get that much better all of a sudden. Monta is who he is. Any gm will take a rookie pg who avg. 18 and 5 on 50%(edit 47% and 40% from 3's) on a bum squad over a volume shooting sg in a pgs body whose been to the playoffs once in his 7 nba seasons.

Strangely, they didn't put an immediate judgment on his rookie PG assist numbers to dismiss his capacity as a franchise player.

But it's cool. Take Monta instead.

Paul came in an crushed the buildings

Deron wasn't considered franchise. He was a part of Sloan's stacked squad



And like I stated, if Kyrie steps up this season, then I will give him accolades. But the kid didn't come in the league like AI an instant franchise player.


Monta is a 7 year player out of high school

How many high school players still had success after 7 years in the league on Monta's level. He is a top 5 shooting guard and showing no signs of decline.


I guess we should have written off Kobe in 2003 since he was a volume scorer and all...

i'd give cp3 the nod, but you can't go wrong wit a rookie pg having a season like kyrie.

There is no fucking way you can compare an "alleged" point guard that couldn't average a 5.5 clip in assists on a SUCK ASS TEAM...

...with a POINT guard that average 7.8 assists (7th in the league) on a SUCK ASS TEAM...


A point guard in Kyrie, who only had 1 double double the entire season...

A point guard in Chris Paul who had 19-20 double doubles and a couple of triple doubles...


Get the fuck out of here with this Kyrie dickriding



He has shown that he can score and can play in the clutch, but we haven't seen shit to say he is a point guard on a level of Chris Paul at ALL

after their rookie years. So what is the magic number of assists that a rookie pg should be averaging?

16.1pts 7.8ast 5.1rb 2.2 st

20 double doubles 2 triple doubles



18.5pts 5.4ast 3.7rb 1.1st

1 double double



after ONE season, you would be safe to assume Kyrie could be a better scorer but ONLY a scorer...Paul did a shitload more on the court

shit ain't totally about numbers, especially for younger dudes who are "franchise players" entirely on potential
ant davis might put up joakim numbers and be on one of the worst teams in the L still no denying the fact they bout to build that franchise round em

who will be a franchise player...



folk butthurt cause Kyrie wasn't on MY list... I need to see more from the lil nigga

They are NOT franchise players on your list like iffy and monta lmao

I could care less. I was just letting you know.

doesn't make them a franchise player though, especially when its a rookie we're talking abt...its something you have to earn on the court. So yeah, the Hornets are attempting to build a team around Davis but if he turns out to be not as good as advertised then they'll draft/trade for another player to build around eventually

Case and point: The Clippers intended to build around Blake Griffin until it became obvious he's not a player you can really build a championship team around because he isn't a franchise player.

The Rockets wanted to make Yao a franchise player and it soon became evident that he wasn't a franchise player either but a solid player who needed another elite player(s) to play off of.

What abt Greg Oden? I know some will say injuries derailed him but I was one of those ppl who didn't believe Oden was ever going to be that dominate player who could lead a team to a title.

and it's not a permanent label
right TODAY irving is a franchise player
kevin durant is probably the only player in the league they would move him for (assuming there's no way lebron would ever work)
it's not really arguable
obviously he has to prove him self or be downgraded
john wall is at that point right now

cry about it...

2.2 > 1.1

cry about it...

20 > 1

cry about it...



Your boy is a PG that avg 5.4 assits and 1.1 steals and only had one double double game the entire season

Paul had 20 double doubles, 2 triple doubles, was 7th in the league in assist with that 7.8 and third in the league in steals with 2.2




Crushed the buildings fam....

either. Not deeeep in the playoffs, just get to the playoffs.

>He is a top 5 shooting guard and showing no signs of decline.

he's at that stage of his career where he needs to 'figure it out'

>Bron
>Durant
>Rose
>Paul
>Deron
>Dwight Howard
>Blake Griffin
>*Westbrook* (will be in the future)
Dirk
Old Man Kobe


This is the correct list Go^^^^^

Age and injury...

Dirk I can see...


I think there are plenty of exceptional players in the league that have a bad combination of team concept and coaching.

He could post up, defend bigs and rebound like a forward. Basic what lebron would be if theyd just started him at pg

But point forward is Bron and Pippen.

Players that play the forward but run point duties.

Magic was the opposite. He was a point that could play the post, like Penny


Now if they start Bron at the point...


Magic was great because he was a great point guard more than him being just a forward.

He was a freak of nature. One of a kind that can never be replicated. Bird and Bron come the closest

And what exactly has Rondo proven?

Rondo has been the best player on the C's for at least the last 3 years, and they've been in contention for chips. Rondo can be the centerpiece on a title contender. I can't say the same about LA.

And I like LA. But what has he really done? Is he that much better than Z-Bo, Bosh, or Pau? I understand you're a PDX fan, but c'mon. He ain't a franchise player.

and for a big man that is a bit of a concern. I do though think he could be a great complimentary star on a title team.

if you've never seen LaMarcus completely control a basketball game, though, you haven't watched enough LaMarcus Aldridge basketball games.

but he doesn't have them consistently for a guy of his talents.

It's a lot easier to appear as though you're controlling a basketball game when you share the court with Kevin Garnett.

>It's a lot easier to appear as though you're controlling a
>basketball game when you share the court with Kevin Garnett.

I think I edited the wrong post. lol

but everything else he's not for a big man.

>Rondo has been the best player on the C's for at least the
>last 3 years, and they've been in contention for chips. Rondo
>can be the centerpiece on a title contender. I can't say the
>same about LA.

They haven't been contenders because of Rondo, and to call him the best player on the C's for 3 years is pure hyperbole.


>And I like LA. But what has he really done? Is he that much
>better than Z-Bo, Bosh, or Pau? I understand you're a PDX fan,
>but c'mon. He ain't a franchise player.

I can understand this view, but part of the definition of a franchise player is tat a franchise is building their team around him, have the C's been building around Rondo? Come the entire fuck on.

The Blazers are now buiding their team around LMA. Like it or not.

If Kevin Love is a franchise player (lol), then LMA is.

And yes, Rondo has been the best player in Boston for the last 3,easily in the last 2, and yes they have and will continue to build around him, because he is their most valuable player and their franchise player.

Just because a team chooses a certain player to build around does not mean that player is a true franchise player. WTF are you talking about here?

I think that Rondo is getting way too much credit here, though. Great player, but they're not building the team around him now any more than they are building around Paul Pierce and/or Kevin Garnett, and they never were. I do not agree that he is a better player than either PP or KG (although PP did struggle in the playoffs this year).

ray ray is meanmugging you from miami right now, while avery bradley is laughing from boston.

they are absolutely, 100% building a team for and around rondo. without any doubts.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

I don't understand.

team, TODAY

successful being a perennial playoff team

conference contender

and outside chance of a chip

Bron
Kobe
CP3
Durant
Dirk
Wade
Bynum
Gasols
Rondo
Westbrook
D12
Rose

I got 12

Rondo has been surrounded by hall of fame talent throughout his career. He's never had a team built around him, and while he is a spectacular player with a unique skill set, I just don't see how he could be considered a franchise player.

but truth be told

and it pains me to say it as a 6ers fan

Rondo was right there with him

almost stride for stride

MFers completely forget the game he had

he dropped 40+ and they lose

he drops 13+ dimes they win

I feel like he's doing what they need him to do with that team

HOF players, sure I'll give you that

but let's not act like these dudes aren't all around 5 years past their prime

he's not playing with the Minny KG, SEA Ray Ray, or 08' PP

he'll start to get a couple more FGAs per game

his PPG will increase

and his numbers will start to look like Steve Nash

he's already getting 12/12/5

bottom line

I feel like you could put a group of guys on the floor with him

and he'd find a way to get the most out of them

and win

44 points... in a loss

came back the next game and dropped 20/10/6 on em

I had nothing but respect for dude after he dislocated his elbow

and played

but after this year, there is only hate left as a detractor

they trade Perk, and Jeff Green never plays for them

KG and PP been battling leg problems

and Ray Ray was a non factor

his backup, Avery Bradley didn't play

still, BOS pushed MIA to 7

a W from a title shot

give the kid some of the credit

In the playoffs. There was talk on ESPN of him being the MVP of the 'offs through the first 2 rounds.

So Rondo has a great game (with at least 8 points coming after the game had been decided, really); and suddenly he's THE franchise? Weren't they just trying to trade him recently?

Cmon.

>In the playoffs. There was talk on ESPN of him being the MVP
>of the 'offs through the first 2 rounds.

and then what happened when he faced miami? cmon. maybe if he hadn't started sucking the second chris bosh returned, everyone would be questioning if lebron really was a franchise player.

>So Rondo has a great game (with at least 8 points coming after
>the game had been decided, really); and suddenly he's THE
>franchise? Weren't they just trying to trade him recently?

They weren't trying to trade him (and, fwiw, the guy they were "trying" to trade him for was CHRIS PAUL). A great game? cmon. he had many great games in the playoffs--that's the point.

>Cmon.

word. Rondo definitely was the best player on the celtics team this year where they only lost to bathsaltbron.
-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

changed the subject to KG

...on his back like a franchise player, no?

which overshadowed Rondo's performance

at which I was equally amazed

but I can see your bias by dismissing Rondo's 8 points in OT

when they needed every point to get to OT

and then dismissing the rest of the games

IN THAT SERIES

that he dropped 20 and 10

oh, and don't forget he's one of the best rebounding guards in the league (you've heard of triple doubles?)

you can log onto ESPN and check out the stats yourself

and tell me if you'd take KG or Rondo's playoff numbers

or which one is a franchise player

or whatever your reason was for trying to divert the subject to KG

I was also amazed at James Harden's performance in the WCF. That doesn't make him a franchise player, even though he is an elite talent capable of taking over a game.

We are disagreeing about one thing: the definition of franchise player.

Say all you want about how Rondo is the best player on the Celtics and the heart of the franchise. I disagree. I absolutely agree that he played elite ball in the playoffs.

every year. I think that's the starting point for any discussion concerning a franchise player. The only exception would be a young guy, maybe 3 years or less exp. in the league. By year 4, if you are a franchise guy your team should be in the playoffs every year, (barring injury to said player)

lol @ guys like monta and marc gasol being mentioned.

Yeah, he had won chips, but he didn't get them to the playoffs every year.

A guy like Kevin Love hasn't been yet, but I think he gets there this year.

But generally, I agree with you, if you can't even get your team in the playoffs, you're not a franchise player.

that.

love woulda made it last year if not for the injuries.

an exception. lol

23 and 14 in his last 2 seasons. i'd take my chances with him as a franchise player.

somebody WOULD HAVE done, actual accomplishments mean more to me. If somebody has been in the playoffs multiple times before and has an off year or their team just isn't that good, I might give them the benefit of the doubt. but if you've NEVER been in the playoffs? You're not in the franchise player convo in my book.

That's why I don't buy Chris Paul being given automatic top 5 elite status and he's never even been to the conference finals. Is his Clipper team that much worse than the Bulls team Rose took to the ECF last year?

A lot of people didnt think Nash was a "franchise player" when he was winning back-to-back MVPs.

lol

go sit ya perk a top 5 center ass down.

He's NEVER missed the playoffs...Denver drafted him and were in the playoffs every year
Say what you want about his playoff record (he's performed, but his teams have flustered), but if the criteria means to get the teams there, then he's gotta be considered franchise

They tried to build a franchise around him and failed.

He needs other superstars with him to win.

Period

With all the bad press he's gotten people seem to forget that the Magic did a lousy job consistently surrounding him with adequate talent. So I wouldn't call him a failure as a franchise player. He's legit.

Ya'll in here acting like he pulled a Lebron or AI when they almost literally put their teams on their back on the way to the finals. Howard by no stretch did anything of the sort lol

I guess ya'll forgetting that Lewis/Nelson/Courtney Lee/Hedo/Pietrus/Skip were all shooting lights out from the 3 throughout that 09 playoffs and especially against the Cavs in the 09 ECF and the Cavs couldn't guard their shooters on the perimeter

and when they got the finals, they met up w/a Lakers team that could guard their shooters on the perimeter which is why they were SWEPT IN THE FINALS

Oh, and in case ya'll forgot, he wasn't even the leading scorer for the Magic in the finals, Hedo was 1st (18.0ppg) and Lewis (17.4ppg) was 2nd and Howard 3rd (15.4ppg)

but

yes, he is a franchise player but lets not get carried away w/what he did in 09

>
>and when they got the finals, they met up w/a Lakers team that
>could guard their shooters on the perimeter which is why they
>were SWEPT IN THE FINALS
>

barely played in the playoffs

D12 was a #1 overall pick for a reason

ORL was the worst team in the league

he takes them to the finals in 5 years

= franchise player

>
>he takes them to the finals in 5 years
>
>= franchise player
>
>

basketball ain't your strong suit homie

that roster w/o D12 is Golden State

Not every team can win the title. Orlando has been an elite team in the east for years because of Dwight.

***Throws it out there***

i love the guy and wanted the wizards to draft him until the ariza/okafor trade me that improbable (although i guess the bobcats would've taken him anyway), i think a franchise player is, mainly, at least one of:

* a great quarterback
* a great scorer
* protect the paint and set the tone defensively
* a statistically gaudy winner (your leading scorers and 20/10 in their sleep types)
* perceived by other players/teams as a franchise player

unless mkg learns to shoot or guard nba big men full-time i don't see that happening. he could be the best perimeter defender in the league and light a fire under his whole team's ass with his intensity and work ethic but that'll just make him an angrier iguodola. i hope i'm wrong.

imo, only three guys are definitely franchise players:

lebron
chris paul
dwight howard

a team either of these guys joins expects to contend, even if otis smith or whoever has donald sterling's hand up their ass is filling in the rest of the roster. when they leave teams, women lament their barren breasts, babes cry for want of milk and sports radio is filled with frustration-fueled and tear-choked racial hostility.

maybes:

kevin garnett: the celtics are still the defensive standard for the league and he's why (imo thibodeaux's defense wouldn't be shit if kg hadn't shown how to execute it). rondo gets all of the hype but his individual brilliance correlates with the decline of the celtics' offense as a whole. maybe this year is when kg finally gets too old.

steve nash: i think he was coasting these past couple of years. but maybe he wasn't.

wade and kobe: the case for and against both has been done to death around here and i'm leaning towards Not Anymore with both anyway.

on the verge:

kevin durant: if you're the best scorer in the world, your pg can't dominate the rock more than you, no matter how good he is, and at some point that becomes your fault. also, coaches don't try to hide franchise players on mario chalmers.

kevin love: amazing individual performances need to translate into wins at some point. also, and this is probably unfair, but franchise players can't come off the bench in the olympics, right?

andrew bynum: has no resume as first option. i don't see why he shouldn't step up. i personally think he'll hate doug collins and the sixers will miss iggy more than they thought but that should only be a bump in the road.

down the road:

kyrie: he was so prepared. andrew luck with speech therapy.

anthony davis: i mean we all saw the guy

james harden: he'll have to change teams, though

and since i'm a wizards fan responding to a uk fan, i'll add john wall as a long shot because you can not convince me he's not going to make a leap this year, etc.

Wow

Franchise player, nah. But Star? absolutely.

was to stay the fuck out of this post and I should have followed it.

I think I'm sticking to football and baseball posts until late October...

>be shit if kg hadn't shown how to execute it). rondo gets all
>of the hype but his individual brilliance correlates with the
>decline of the celtics' offense as a whole. maybe this year is
>when kg finally gets too old.

correlation does not equal causality. Rondo's brilliance also coincides with Paul Pierce losing a step, KG getting injured and losing his hops/endurance, and the complete loss of *any* bench scoring. but yeah, it's rondo's problem of being individually brilliant.

the amount of hate, sideways, intentional, unintentional, whatever that rondo gets is hilarious. he's like this generation's isiah in that respect. people got strong opinions on him. good!

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

Now its, "The team is bad. So of course he has to do more."

I think he needs a medium team.

-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

wizards is not a franchise player.

>correlation does not equal causality. Rondo's brilliance also
>coincides with Paul Pierce losing a step, KG getting injured
>and losing his hops/endurance, and the complete loss of *any*
>bench scoring. but yeah, it's rondo's problem of being
>individually brilliant.

points per game: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/team-comparison-per-game
points per possession: http://hoopdata.com/teamff.aspx

wouldn't that be a reflection of his teammates as opposed to if he was a scoring pg??

>wouldn't that be a reflection of his teammates as opposed to
>if he was a scoring pg??

point of mentioning a pass-first pg is that it's not "get the fuck out of the way and let ai/rose/kobe go to work." rondo runs the team offense. if he orchestrates the offense but the offense sucks, he's not a franchise player to me.

the counterfactual is "what would that offense look like with a different PG" not "is this offense bad"

and the answer is that aside from if rondo is replaced by one of the other elite PGs, it'd be 10 times worse. and don't forget the defense.


-----------
It's only funny till someone gets mad. Then it's hilarious.

>the counterfactual is "what would that offense look like with
>a different PG" not "is this offense bad"
>
>and the answer is that aside from if rondo is replaced by one
>of the other elite PGs, it'd be 10 times worse. and don't
>forget the defense.

if that's your standard for a franchise player, cool. i think a franchise player doesn't just improve his team, he makes them good. the cavs with lebron made mo williams an all star. the celtics with rondo need multiple screens for ray allen or avery bradley sprinting around just to get clean looks.

the celtics as a team have been good because of their defense and that's because of kg, not rondo.

you guys more than obliged. above and beyond. kudos.

its just framed differently.

Current top 10
max players
franchise players

its literally the same convos wit the same guys being argued about.

that you can build a winning team around

because the next 5 best guys after him (paul, howard, durant, rose, love) have all been discounted @ various points in this thread

so that's the only conclusion i'm left to draw. 1 franchise player in the entire league. who knew?!

if only there was some way he could have proved himself a "franchise player." instead, dallas built around rodrigue beauboisquiatte

instead, dallas built around rodrigue
>beauboisquiatte

five definitely.

bron
cp3
howard
durant
rose

guys who are a tier beneath, but qualify.

wade
dirk
pau
bynum
kyrie
cousins
westbrook
love
rondo
anthony davis (maybe)

Rose could still be in the running if he can fully recover.

The jury is still out on a few guys like Westbrook, TP, Rondo, CP3 and Deron, as far as being good enough to build a whole team around.

Everyone else is either overrated (Blake, Melo and D12 etc) or a tier below the franchise level, most likely due to age and wear and tear (Kobe, Wade, Dirk, etc).

I'm not even gonna mention young guys, cause it's pointless. they can fizzle out as easily as all the other guys fresh outta college that were supposed to be so great.

so he hasn't been the best center in the league since Shaq left MIA

= 6-7 years

OKayPlayer

I'm convinced people in this thread don't watch basketball

crappy FT shooter. No post game. No jumper. No go to move besides dunking. Can't be depended on late in games and in the clutch. But he's a franchise player now? Please.

He is the best center since Shaq, but is that really saying much nowadays?

Dwight would be better served to do what he's about to do in LA, be a rebounder and defensive force in the paint. That's about it. No one needs Dwight throwing up wack-ass hook shots and trying a sorry ass attempt at a Tim Duncan bank shot. Ain't nobody building around a guy that's a center, athletic as fuck, young, but can't even manage creating his own offense on a regular basis.

>Dwight would be better served to do what he's about to do in LA



>Ain't nobody building around a guy that's a center, athletic
>as fuck, young, but can't even manage creating his own offense
>on a regular basis.

well, orlando did... and the lakers are about to... soooooo....

thanks NOT only to Dwight, but a host of other players that stepped their game up that year. He wasn't even the real reason they advanced. A lot of that was due to others guys hitting clutch shots...not Dwight. If they relied on D12, they would not have gotten that far. They brought back Hedo in an attempt to regain some of that "magic" from that year, but turns out that year was pretty much a fluke cause Hedo played over his head...so did Shard and D12 did his part, but he wasn't the focal point.

And the Lakers aren't building around Dwight, they are adding Dwight to a team that already won multiple championships without him.....so?

And I'm not even shitting on D12. Saying someone isn't franchise isn't a slight. He just doesn't have the tools. Most players don't. No sense in pretending he's something that he's not. That's the mistake the Magic made.

you know what? you got it, bruh.

(wtf am i doing here? lol)

?

by default. See Kevin Love. I mean, don't get me wrong, they are still rebounds and someone's got to get them. And maybe that's coach's plan...Dwight gets all the boards and everyone else leaks out. I dunno. Just saying, a lot of his rebounds, as well as a few other players in the league, sort of just fall in his hands because no one else makes an effort to get them on his team.

and I never understood this argument

dude is getting you 20+

I don't give a fuck if it's pretty, fundamentally sound, etc...

the shit's effective

you listed Bron and Durant as the only 2 franchise players

what's Durant defense look like?

you seem to be caught up in PPG or just completely decide to ignore the other half of a basketball game

but if you watched basketball

you would know, almost every statement you've made, IRT D12 = franchise player

nobody has to play that well on defense

because once they get in the paint, that shit is getting swatted

or you're stopping and kicking it out to someone els

nobody has to rebound...you already covered that

and the reason other players have success from the perimeter

is because the offense is feed the post

and if the D collapses

kick to a wide open jump shooter

or D12 goes one on one, which is almost certainly a mismatch in his favor

almost any given year this kid's been in the league he's been a leader

in rebs, blks, and FG%

while also being amongst the leaders in PPG

I mean I could go on, but if you can't see it by now

I doubt I can help you

dwight howard is not a guy you can build a championship-caliber team around.

the proof being that the year when he, you know, almost won a championship, he had other players in his supporting cast who also played well.

the supporting cast that the magic, you know, built around him.

the fact that they played (i.e. scored) well because they didn't have to defend or rebound or take contested shots... you know, because of dwight howard? totally irrelevant.

like Hedo Turkeyglue

Rashard Lewis

Jason Richardson

and traded for the likes of Big Baby Davis

good thing they had guys like that to make up for the deficiencies of their non-franchise caliber center

I got it now

thanks

is that you need to be the team's primary scoring option on every single late-game possession

which disqualifies pretty much every big in nba history

bill russell : not at all a baller

so to recap -

bigs can't be 'chise
somebody up top was arguing that PGs can't be 'chise

so i guess we're debating "the best hero-ball wings who jack low % 25-fters @ the ends of close games"

I think I've seen that be effective about 25% of the time

so the new list is

Michael Jordan and

and

...

>I think I've seen that be effective about 25% of the time
>
>so the new list is
>
>Michael Jordan and
>
>and
>
http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/276264_o.gif

no one is saying he has to be captain clutch and hit game-winners and score 35ppg, I'm just saying...if we're gonna pretend he's a franchise player, it would help if he had a reliable offensive game. I don't think that's too much to ask from a franchise player, since the main part of basketball is putting the ball in the hoop.

is milk carton status on D, he doesn't rebound as well he should for somebody with his length and athleticism either.

So I guess we're down to Lebron as the only "franchise player" and he couldn't win shit until he teamed up with 2 other near "franchise players"

Russy is hella good, but you're not building a team around him. He's in the perfect situation for what he does. So is Harden.

>
>and he couldn't win shit until he teamed up with 2 other near
>"franchise players"

Being a good player doesn't mean you're a franchise player. A player that you can build a successful team around. There are a lot of players that are good, but aren't great. He's not the only one. They are good, but they are not complete players. And yeah, I do base a lot of what I say about D12 on the fact that his offense sucks. Because...well...it does. And it is a huge liability. It's his biggest weakness. I take Durant's defensive liabilities all day long compared to Dwight's offensive liabilities because Durant's defense is not nearly as bad. I take Lebron's lack of clutchness all day long because he dominates the rest of the game in many other aspects. Dwight's offensive issues are a problem all game long. His free throws are an issue all game long. It's been an issue since he arrived in the league. It will get worse with age if he doesn't start addressing that part of his game. His maturity and effort is an issue all game long. Which is one reason I feel you can't build around him.

Let's not sit here and act like Dwight wasn't a huge reason why Orlando underachieved for so many years. He's had numerous moments of being unmotivated. It's a clusterfuck when he gets the ball in the paint. Yeah, people can throw Hedo and Lewis and Nelson under the bus, but they were the reason the Magic excelled when they did....not Dwight. Because when it comes down to it, you gotta score. Which is why whenever the Magic made moves...it was geared toward getting guys that can score.....because Dwight can't. Which is why he isn't franchise.

dude is a good player
dude is a superstar
dude is an all-star
dude is a game-changer on the Lakers because they don't need him to score
BUT........dude is not a franchise player.

Sorry

he still commands a double team most of the time, leaving somebody open therefore making his teammates better, plus you usually have to double him to keep him off the offensive glass. Not to mention on the defensive end where a shotblocking center makes everybody better. Its basketball 101. He's a dominant player on both ends of the floor.

So all the talk about his offensive issues and needing to work on his game since he got into the league was all bullshit? Yeah, you do have to keep him off the boards, because that along with dunks is the only way he can reliably score. Oh, and being spoon-fed right under the hoop. That's your 20 ppg right there. Which isn't bad, but a franchise player needs to be able to step up when needed. Not wait for someone to shovel him the ball so he can dunk it. Cause that's not always gonna be possible. Which is why the Orlando Magic always took shitty shots when they needed to score badly. It was always Hedo, Shard or Nelson taking some half-ass shot attempt. Why, because you can't depend on D12. Why, cause his offense sucks. And when the Magic could not longer depend on Shard, Hedo or Nelson for scoring....you see why they had to blow that team up.

Yeah, he's dominant on defense. That's his main value.

>he still commands a double team most of the time, leaving
>somebody open therefore making his teammates better, plus you
>usually have to double him to keep him off the offensive
>glass. Not to mention on the defensive end where a
>shotblocking center makes everybody better. Its basketball
>101. He's a dominant player on both ends of the floor.

him 1-on-1, I'd say that's dominant in my book.

How many other centers in the NBA averaged 20ppg? I'll wait.

and Monta Ellis averaged 20 ppg too. I don't hear anyone calling them dominant on offense. And their offensive games are light-years better than Dwights and they both play a lot further from the basket.

>
>How many other centers in the NBA averaged 20ppg? I'll wait.

think so dipshit.

But they both shoot over 78% from the FT line though. And compared to what Dwight shoots, that's a big difference. I'm only addressing your comment that dude is dominant on offense...which is bullshit.

no matter how you try to spin it.

you're making against D12

Durant excels offensively

so they have to have defensive minded first players in their starting lineup

like Perk and Ibaka

Durant without defensive stoppers backing him up would make the Thunder the SuperSonics

same as D12 excels defensively

so they surround him with a gang of spot up shooters

it's the same shit

they added pieces to each franchise to compliment the strengths of their franchise player

but I'll let you tell it

and I still don't get the knock on his offensive game

other than it's not pretty

as Dwight's offense. Not even close.

But yeah, the Thunder obviously wanted to sure up their interior defense....seeing that their main guys are a SF and the other is a PG/SG. I don't see them swatting too many shots.

I get it that no franchise player does it all.

DRose isn't that great of an outside shooter and he turns the rock over too much. But I can take those two negatives because the other shit he does makes those minor issues.

Durant...okay, his defense is not the best and maybe he should fight Perk and Ibaka for rebounds more. I guess. But again, the positives
outweigh that by a mile.

Dwight rebounds good and plays great defense...game-changing defense. BUT, the Magic suffered for years because his offensive game never evolved. I don't see how anyone can refute that. It literally cost them games and probably championships too, if I wanted to get dramatic. Is Dwight a scrub. No. Will he get a chip on the Lakers, yeah, he will. Maybe a few. But he's not franchise. Good player...best center in the league for years running now. Bout not franchise.

>you're making against D12
>
>Durant excels offensively
>
>so they have to have defensive minded first players in their
>starting lineup
>
>like Perk and Ibaka
>
>Durant without defensive stoppers backing him up would make
>the Thunder the SuperSonics
>
>same as D12 excels defensively
>
>so they surround him with a gang of spot up shooters
>
>it's the same shit
>
>they added pieces to each franchise to compliment the
>strengths of their franchise player
>
>but I'll let you tell it
>
>and I still don't get the knock on his offensive game
>
>other than it's not pretty
>

>
>nobody has to play that well on defense
>
>because once they get in the paint, that shit is getting
>swatted
>

Ibaka

You guys do realize there are a lot of players in the league that can put up 20+ ppg, right?

not even the league

like D12 has done

lead your team in Rebs, Blks, and PPG

and that team consistently makes the playoffs

= franchise player

you're just trolling now

oh, David Lee scores 20+ PPG

oh, Serge Ibaka get Rebs and Blks

and one player does all of the above

D12

Dwight does

after multiple trips to the playoffs in the weak ass Eastern Conference. Hmmm.

Shaq was more dominant than Dwight and it took him a while too, but once he came west and teamed up with DAT MAMBA...

you know the rest...

and probably won't now that D12 is in the WC

in his career to do that. There's no shame in that. Playing with Kobe, Nash and Pau will just let him roam all over the goddamn court on defense and he's gonna get spoon-fed all game long. Pau, Kobe and Nash are good passers so he'll benefit.

I just don't think he's as good as people think. That's not saying he's a bum though. He's all but admitted he needs to get his offensive game right and I think he's working with Kareem now. I don't consider him franchise now, but shit, if he can develop a go to move or two, he will be. He's not that far from franchise, but he's not there yet and Orlando definitely suffered a bit because he never evolved. That's all I'm saying. I'd still take him over most players in the game simply because of what he does bring to the table.

1st team all defense AT CENTER the last 4 years straight, he's lead the league in rebounds per game 4 of the last 5 years and led the league in blocks twice.

The fact that he gives you 20ppg while doing all that is basically like a bonus. He's the only person in the last 20+ years to win DPOY AND average 20ppg.

If it means to you i can build around this one player and his strengths will make me a championship contending team and a 55 win team then it is Lebron and Dwight.

If we are talking about that this one guy can get me 45 wins and to the playoffs not really a contender with out other great pieces then you have the Kobe, Melo, Wade, Durant's off the world where they will get you 45 to 50 wins in the regular season but post season if they don't have another star with them they ain't getting past that first round.

Thats the natural fact nigga