Go back to previous topic | Forum name | Okay Sports | Topic subject | Sacramento Kings may move to VA Beach *Swipe* | Topic URL | http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=2024116 |
2024116, Sacramento Kings may move to VA Beach *Swipe* Posted by Bink Jackson, Thu Aug-23-12 12:28 PM
http://insidebiz.com/news/sources-sacramento-kings-may-move-virginia-beach-arena-deal-works
By Philip Newswanger and Bill Cresenzo
The owners of the Sacramento Kings, an NBA franchise, and officials from Philadelphia-based Comcast-Spectacor are expected to be in Virginia Beach Tuesday to propose moving the team to the resort city and for Comcast to help build and lease a new pro sports arena.
A deal between the Maloof family, which owns the Sacramento Kings, and the city of Sacramento for a $391 million entertainment complex fell apart three months ago and it has been reported that the owners are looking for a city for their franchise. Media giant Comcast will guarantee a 25-year lease on a new arena, supposedly for naming rights and for broadcasting the games, sources said. Comcast owns NBC and Global Spectrum, which operates arenas and stadiums across the country including the Ted Constant Convocation Center at Old Dominion University. City officials and the Maloof family are expected to announce Wednesday, Aug. 29, that the Kings will land in Virginia Beach, sources said.
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2024121, W T F ? Posted by Dr Claw, Thu Aug-23-12 12:32 PM
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2024129, lol, put the bucks in the west? Posted by rob, Thu Aug-23-12 12:42 PM
i don't doubt they could support a team but sacramento, seattle, st louis and a few other places deserve teams.
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2024130, If Sacramento is worse than Hampton Roads, I feel sorry Posted by AnonymousCoward, Thu Aug-23-12 12:42 PM
for its residents.
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2024133, Are they trying to get the entire League arrested? Posted by cantball, Thu Aug-23-12 12:44 PM
____________________
Behold my works,ye mighty
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2024594, Cousins & Evans would be doomed. Posted by BrooklynWHAT, Thu Aug-23-12 11:09 PM
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2024136, RE: Sacramento Kings may move to VA Beach *Swipe* Posted by Poorspellir, Thu Aug-23-12 12:48 PM
I'm a short drive from Va. Beach, & would love to finally have a pro team here, but it shouldn't happen this way.
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2024144, Where is this arena supposed to be? Posted by Sleepy, Thu Aug-23-12 12:52 PM
It's all the way at the beach. Traffic is about to be a nightmare.
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2024152, Everything I'm reading says near the Oceanfront Posted by Bink Jackson, Thu Aug-23-12 12:57 PM
n/m
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2024178, The problem lies in the fact that VA Beach is a city without a city Posted by AnonymousCoward, Thu Aug-23-12 01:21 PM
Does VA Beach even have a downtown?
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2024196, Closest thing they have is the Town Center Posted by Bink Jackson, Thu Aug-23-12 01:41 PM
But I cant see that as a true "downtown"
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2024220, What does that mean? Posted by Sleepy, Thu Aug-23-12 02:05 PM
I really don't know what you're trying to say.
As far as a downtown, there isn't one. Which is okay, because you really don't need one for the arena. Just a way to get there.
I don't really think this is the best idea, but mainly because the arena location will suck.
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2024146, The slap in the face to Seattle if this happens is huge Posted by B9, Thu Aug-23-12 12:52 PM
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2024277, sort of Posted by colonelk, Thu Aug-23-12 03:46 PM
Seattle's current play is for Chris Hansen to buy a team. Seattle doesn't want the Maloofs.
If the Maloofs aren't selling, there's not really a scenario for Seattle to get the Kings.
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2024154, I think the jury is still out if pro sports work in small southern cities Posted by zigbfree, Thu Aug-23-12 12:59 PM
I know Virginia Beach has a sprawling metro area of 7 cities but it still does not compare to the population metro of other major metro areas.
Let's look at how well current cities are doing. The NO Hornets, Charlotte Bobcats are struggling franchises. Jacksonville Jags and Tampa struggle with sell-outs and black out dates. Even larger metro areas like Atlanta and Miami have teams that struggle with attendance even when the teams are good like the Hawks and Marlins.
There are some small southern teams that do well (at least currently) like the NO Saints and the Memphis Griz.
But if a team moves to a small southern market like Va Beach which isnt known for being basketball crazy (I know they have wanted a pro baseball team down there for years), I see the team moving again to another city in 15 to 20 years or less.
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2024171, And the Griz don't even do THAT well Posted by Marauder21, Thu Aug-23-12 01:13 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/attendance
They were a legit western contender last year and still finished 20th in the league in attendance. In a city with no other pro sports (strong college program though,) a good team shouldn't be behind the Raps, Wolves, Cavs and Wizards.
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2024177, nobody is really trying to come off of $30-60 for tickets Posted by hardware, Thu Aug-23-12 01:19 PM
the $10 seats are alight for the playoffs but nobody is trying to see Atlanta from the nosebleeds in a city that doesn't really understand how having a pro team works
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2024194, I really wonder how the Grizz will do in the future Posted by zigbfree, Thu Aug-23-12 01:40 PM
They signed a bunch of big contracts. If they are 20th in attendance now, what happens if the team declines and they still have to pay those big contracts. Plus on top of that, the city of Memphis is struggling, as are all cities but Memphis was struggling before the recession.
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2024176, From a division realignment standpoint, I'd rather see KC get a team Posted by Marauder21, Thu Aug-23-12 01:18 PM
Shift Portland from the Northwest to the Pacific, put the Kings in the Northwest.
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2024181, KC needs a team Posted by hardware, Thu Aug-23-12 01:24 PM
Chiefs aint doin it Royals aint doin it Sporting KC is the only team thats actually winning metal in that city right now
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2024184, KC, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Seattle, Vegas, Louisville... Posted by AnonymousCoward, Thu Aug-23-12 01:27 PM
all of these cities should get a team before VA Beach
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2024200, I think a Bmore team would really hurt the Wiz Posted by zigbfree, Thu Aug-23-12 01:48 PM
The former Redskins owner Jack Kent Cooke tried really hard to block a football team from moving to Baltimore. And the Redskins has a very large, strong, loyal fanbase that really wasnt phased by Bmore getting a team.
Now the Wiz on the other hand, have a very weak fanbase because they have struggled for so many years. And its not that they have a ton of fans in Bmore but Bmore is a decent basketball supporting city and by default root/watch the wiz because its the closest team.
And I think Bmore getting a new arena would spook the Wiz owner who also owns the Capitals of the possibility of a hockey team relocating to Baltimore. That would be a problem because there is a decent/large Cap fanbase in Bmore.
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2024201, Baltimore is not even in the running, 'Burgh outside chance Posted by ConcreteCharlie, Thu Aug-23-12 01:48 PM
I'll have to read more about Louisville. Pittsburgh has a great new arena but their tepid support for anything less than a real competitive team makes them a little suspect. They always want to knock it out of the box, although getting blindly dedicated fans is tough in the NBA and understandably so.
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2024240, Baltimore would actually work. Posted by Tiger Woods, Thu Aug-23-12 02:55 PM
Pittsburgh is a mostly white, arguably racist, working-class, sports-crazy town. The lowest ratings of the NBA finals traditionally come from the Pittsburgh market.
Baltimore is a melting pot, maybe still kind of racist, working-class, maybe even more-sports-crazy-than-Pittsburgh town. A good NBA franchise would put a deep dent in the Wizards and would do well. All you need to do is look at how the Ravens soared in the wake of the Redskins Snyder-era for a model.
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2082174, Baltimore is not that big of a city and certainly not all that wealthy Posted by ConcreteCharlie, Fri Nov-30-12 02:00 PM
Plus it does not have a suitable facility yet. Pittsburgh has a marvelous arena (Consol Energy Center), Kansas City has the Sprint Center.
Are we seriously debating expansion based on number of racists? I also think you are severely underselling Baltimore's racism (no white people live in the city anymore, white flight if I have ever seen it in my life) and also Pittsburgh's black population, which actually *slightly* larger than Baltimore's.
I'm definitely not seeing the "sports crazy" angle in Bawlmer over the Burgh either. At best it's a wash, but I dunno man, they go ape shit for the Steelers regardless and if the Penguins are half competitive they are HUGE business.
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2024432, RE: KC, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Seattle, Vegas, Louisville... Posted by murph71, Thu Aug-23-12 08:38 PM
>all of these cities should get a team before VA Beach
I agree with every city except Baltimore....
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2026334, While Vegas could sport a team, Stern hates us. Posted by LeroyBumpkin, Tue Aug-28-12 07:10 PM
He's been reported saying the gambling would be a concern, but that's BS. All the casino sports books are regulated by the Nevada Gaming Board. It'd govern itself. So we're actually more legit than a lot of other cities.
Of course the drama of the NBA All-Star weekend didn't help.
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2026496, Didn't the 07 all star game not even sell out? Posted by Marauder21, Wed Aug-29-12 09:34 AM
If you can't fill an arena to see Lebron and Kobe on the same floor, how are you going to sell tickets to a mid-January Kings/Warriors game?
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2082178, There will never be a pro sports franchise in Vegas, not should there be Posted by ConcreteCharlie, Fri Nov-30-12 02:05 PM
Support a team with what? Tourists don't buy season tickets. Transplants have teams and in Vegas there for either long work hours or pure sleaze. It'll be a cold day in hell when Vegas gets a team in any sport. They have an ECHL team and probably minor league baseball, but that doesn't count. I had to work an ECHL game there once (and also Frozen Fury), it wasn't exactly packed. Ontario, CA draws WAY more, it's like a dinky town with a five-figure population and a big shopping mall.
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2024185, They've got a shiny new arena Posted by Marauder21, Thu Aug-23-12 01:27 PM
I can't believe they haven't got a hockey or basketball team to fill it up yet.
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2024189, So does Louisville...and a STRONG corporate sponsor Posted by AnonymousCoward, Thu Aug-23-12 01:30 PM
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2024242, KC has adopted OKC and they want an NHL team not NBA Posted by B9, Thu Aug-23-12 02:57 PM
for some reason
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2024183, This kinda seems like BS Posted by Marauder21, Thu Aug-23-12 01:26 PM
Why would they announce a move this close to the season starting? Nobody in Sacramento is going to buy a ticket for this last season. It's going to look like that last Houston Oilers season where they had like 10,000 people in the Astrodome embarrassing the league.
Even the Sonics waited until their last season was over to officially announce their move.
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2024269, From KJ's twitter feed Posted by OldPro, Thu Aug-23-12 03:37 PM
Kevin Johnson @KJ_MayorJohnson I spoke w/h the NBA, neither they nor my office has been contacted by the Kings. At this point there is nothing new to report.
And the Sac Bee has a quote from the Kings
http://blogs.sacbee.com/breaking_news/2012/08/056990.html#storylink=cpy
In an emailed statement to The Sacramento Bee, Maloof spokesman Eric Rose wrote: "The Kings have been approached by numerous cities interested in buying the team and relocating it. We are not going to discuss which cities have approached the team and are not going to comment on every rumor. I can tell you that the Kings are 100% focused on putting a winning team on the court."
Sounds like there is something to this... but the Magoofs have said in the past they don't want to sell the team. If they really were open to selling there is already an option here in Sac. With the way these assholes have conducted themselves no way does the league let them just waltz on out of the city... they would have to go full on Al Davis. _________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
If you think being gay is a choice, you've considered it.
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2024635, i could completely disown the goddamn wizards Posted by AlBundy, Fri Aug-24-12 02:13 AM
------------------------- “The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.” Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B
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2024794, Comcast? The 757's cable service is still Cox right? Posted by HueyPercy, Fri Aug-24-12 10:46 AM
How does that work? That's 1 of many reasons that I thought this rumor didn't make any sense. I don't live there anymore so maybe I'm wrong.
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2024861, maybe they'll just provide the sports channel they'll broadcast on Posted by gusto, Fri Aug-24-12 12:31 PM
im pretty sure CSN broadcast on other cable companies besides comcast.
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2024873, what i came to say Posted by jrocc, Fri Aug-24-12 12:52 PM
pretty sure it's only Cox cable out there in 757.
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2024885, Im not sure if that even matters Posted by Bink Jackson, Fri Aug-24-12 01:20 PM
I seriously doubt it would be named Comcast since that is already taken few times over but in the article it already states that the partner Global Spectrum already has a presence in that area with the Constant center (and Foreman Field for that matter)
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2024945, Sounds like a negotiation tactic Posted by Buddy_Gilapagos, Fri Aug-24-12 04:35 PM
********** "naive as the dry leaves on the ground looking past the trees to the blue sky asking 'why me?'" -Blu
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2026495, ^^^ Listen to this man ^^^ Posted by Sleepy, Wed Aug-29-12 09:27 AM
First off, VA Beach hasn't even signed off on the light rail system coming to town. Not only that, I don't see where they could put this thing. Take a look at this map
http://binged.it/O2QOnf
Where would it go? They'd have to claim a lot of land through eminent domain before anything could even happen.
It would take 6 - 7 years at the best estimate. I could see it happening, but not anytime soon.
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2026060, Fans Looking For Kings Merchandise Can’t Get It Online (swipe) Posted by OldPro, Tue Aug-28-12 10:14 AM
The MaGoofs continue to earn their name... these dudes are an embarrassment to the city & the NBA.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/08/27/fans-looking-for-kings-gear-cant-get-it-online/#.UDxR9hLAmCg.twitter
Team Hasn't Had Online Store Operating Since June 15 August 27, 2012 6:45 PM
SACRAMENTO (CBS13) – There are 30 NBA teams; 29 have a team store website. The Sacramento Kings haven’t had a working one since June 15.
Hoping to land that Jimmer jersey? Or that T-Rob T-shirt? Don’t bother checking the Kings’ website. Since June, the link to the Kings’ online store has been a black screen with a telephone number.
“We had a company that was helping us with our website and these are lean times in the economy,” Kings spokesman Chris Clark said. “They’re in business one day, the next day they’re gone.”
And gone was the Kings’ team shop website.
“In the e-commerce industry, it takes about four months to build a website from scratch, and the way the company went under it kind of left us in a lurch,” Clark said.
Since June, fans haven’t been able to see an online catalog of team merchandise and all orders have had to be made over the phone or in person at Power Balance Pavilion.
“I don’t feel comfortable using my card over the phone because you never know what would happen, especially nowadays,” Sharnell Martin said.
Clark says May through September is the team’s slowest time for merchandise sales, but the kings did draft Thomas Robinson in July and fans wanting memorabilia of the newest Kings player couldn’t order anything online.
“If it happened in March, it would have been a larger disruption in service,” Clark said. “It would have taken us longer to fill orders. We would have probably had to hire a staff to answer those calls.”
Clark says the new team store website will be up and running in two weeks, faster than the industry standard of four months to build a website from scratch. Still, some say, the team took too long.
“I’d probably shop somewhere else. They probably would have lost my business by shutting down their website,” Robert Mott said.
CBS13 called the company that ran the website, IQ Commerce. All we got was an operator saying the number was disconnected.
_________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
If you think being gay is a choice, you've considered it.
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2026068, remember when cats was afraid to shop online Posted by hardware, Tue Aug-28-12 10:31 AM
they'd only do it through the mail or over the phone. lol
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2026073, right lol Posted by OldPro, Tue Aug-28-12 10:37 AM
first time I ever bought something online I felt real uneasy about throwing my CC info out there into the webosphere _________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
If you think being gay is a choice, you've considered it.
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2026084, i thought we had it bad Posted by hardware, Tue Aug-28-12 10:54 AM
Adidas has a stranglehold over all Grizz everything so the only fitted cap you can get is a Vancouver one its really really annoying, but i'd rather that for my team than this
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2107250, Because the team can't put three w's together in a row Posted by jigga, Wed Jan-09-13 01:44 PM
(c)fan made sign @ Blazer game day after Christmas
* they actually did win a 3rd straight game in Portland early in the month but...
...rumor has it the team has already been sold to Chris Hansen
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2026267, Update Posted by Bink Jackson, Tue Aug-28-12 03:42 PM
Im not sure why the council would want the arena before knowing a team is coming but *shrugs*
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/08/virginia-beach-council-hears-sports-arena-pitch
Virginia Beach council hears sports arena pitch
VIRGINIA BEACH
The City Council listened to a pitch to build an 18,500-seat sports arena near the Oceanfront this afternoon, and a development official called the proposal an opportunity of a lifetime. Before it was over, though, one councilman was questioning the potential public cost.
Officials for Comcast-Spectacor, the company that wants to build the arena along with Live Nation, have said they would bring a professional sports team to Virginia Beach if the deal goes through.
The arena would host 200 events a year, with 1.4 million attendees, and would be up to 800,000 square feet, according to an announcement from the city’s development authority.
An economic impact study summary says it would cost $350 million and could open in 2014, with its first full year of operation in 2015. It says the facility would generate net new economic activity of more than $98 million and create 1,230 jobs.
“These events, along with naming rights, premium seating, corporate partnerships, and the operations of Comcast-Spectacor and Live Nation, would generate the revenue to pay for the arena,” the announcement states.
Sources have identified the Sacramento Kings as the target tenant, but team owners and officials with Comcast-Spectacor have so far declined to comment.
Peter Luukko, president of Comcast-Spectacor, told the council he was attracted to Virginia Beach because the region is "one of the largest underserved markets in North America."
The arena would be across from the Virginia Beach Convention Center on 19th Street. Luukko said Comcast-Spectacor and Global Spectrum would lease and operate the arena for 25 years.
Warren Harris, Virginia Beach's director of economic development, called the arena "an incredible opportunity facing the city."
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2026276, What happened to Comcast footing the cost? Sounds like bullshit Posted by B9, Tue Aug-28-12 04:10 PM
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2082179, IMO they are being played to drive up other bids Posted by ConcreteCharlie, Fri Nov-30-12 02:06 PM
nm
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2080588, This story isn't over Posted by AnonymousCoward, Wed Nov-28-12 07:58 AM
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/11/27/virginia-beach-reportedly-moving-forward-with-arena-effort-to-lure-kings/
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2080591, Asking the state of Virginia for $150M, $50M going to the Maloofs? Posted by B9, Wed Nov-28-12 08:07 AM
Why stop at $150M? Why not $600M?
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2080593, The fact that the Maloofs have been meeting with the governor Posted by AnonymousCoward, Wed Nov-28-12 08:09 AM
is a new development. This will be a disaster.
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2080741, At this point I could see anything happening now Posted by OldPro, Wed Nov-28-12 11:18 AM
It's become clear as this season has gone on that this city just don't give a shit about the Kings anymore... I'm sure if there was a change of ownership it would help but from everything I've read that ain't going to happen. It's a shame to see a city that supported an awful franchise throughout the 80s and 90s stand to lose it because two entitled assholes over leveraged themselves. _________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
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2081463, To my point.... Posted by OldPro, Thu Nov-29-12 11:49 AM
http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/29/5017602/leading-off-many-more-kings-fans.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#mi_rss=Latest News
Leading Off: Many more Kings fans are staying away By Tom Couzens tcouzens@sacbee.com Published: Thursday, Nov. 29, 2012 - 12:00 am | Page 1C Last Modified: Thursday, Nov. 29, 2012 - 7:47 am Many more Kings fans are staying away
Reading time, two minutes … • The Kings' announced attendance of 10,741 for Tuesday's game against Minnesota at Sleep Train Arena seemed like a stretch, especially to those watching on TV. There were plenty of empty seats in the lower level and wide stretches of the upper level were empty. The Kings are last in the NBA in announced home attendance, averaging 12,574 for nine games, 72 percent of capacity. Interestingly, they lead the league in road attendance, averaging 19,166 for five games.
• One of the few bright spots for Kings fans is knowing the Lakers are struggling, too – for a change. But struggling is relative: The Lakers are 7-8 after losing to the Pacers on Tuesday, but they are expected to continue to improve under new coach Mike D'Antoni, especially when point guard Steve Nash returns in a week or so. Kings fans would be dancing in the streets of North Natomas if their team was 7-8.
• Our friend Maury is touting the Sacramento State men's basketball team, now 5-1 after beating Dominican 77-68 on Tuesday at the Nest. We'll know a lot more about how good the Hornets are Saturday when they play at Arizona State, attempting to start a season 6-1 for the first time in school history. Check out the game on the Pac-12 Network at 5:30 p.m. The Hornets' next home game is Dec. 19 against Montana State.
Today's poll
Why aren't you going to Kings games this season?
• The team is lame.
• The Maloofs turn me off.
• It's too expensive.
• I'm still going.
Vote above or leave your comments in the comment field, or, go to www.sacbee.com/sports
Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/29/5017602/leading-off-many-more-kings-fans.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#mi_rss=Latest News#storylink=cpy _________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
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2081466, And to my point, Virginia politicians have all but killed it: Posted by B9, Thu Nov-29-12 11:54 AM
http://hamptonroads.com/2012/11/general-assembly-members-react-va-beach-pitch-arena-funding
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2081651, I have no idea if it will be Virginia, Seattle, Anaheim or wherever Posted by OldPro, Thu Nov-29-12 04:01 PM
Just saying from the perspective of those of us in Sac that it's very easy to see a scenario where the Kings are allowed to move... I was saying to exact opposite a few months ago but that was before I knew the fans here were going to become this disinterested in the franchise. _________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
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2081745, IMO, Seattle makes the most sense Posted by The Real, Thu Nov-29-12 07:52 PM
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make Money: http://jamesjenkins.acnrep.com Save Money: http://jamesjenkins.acndirect.com
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2081746, Appears Maloofs are playing VA to drive up Seattle Posted by B9, Thu Nov-29-12 07:54 PM
Problem is it's apparent to just about everyone that's what's going on, but I don't think Seattle wants the team unless they can buy them outright, which will be expensive.
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2081753, Forbes valued the Kings at about $300 million earlier this year Posted by HowieDooem, Thu Nov-29-12 08:21 PM
Not sure how accurate that is, but they're one of the least valuable teams in the league. The Seattle ownership group has an estimated net worth of around $20 billion (a lot of that is Steve Ballmer), so an outright purchase isn't completely unreasonable.
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2082016, Except for the fact the Magoofs say they aren't selling Posted by OldPro, Fri Nov-30-12 11:06 AM
>Not sure how accurate that is, but they're one of the least >valuable teams in the league. The Seattle ownership group has >an estimated net worth of around $20 billion (a lot of that is >Steve Ballmer), so an outright purchase isn't completely >unreasonable.
If they would sell they wouldn't have to move in the first place... KJ had other owners ready to go so they could move forward with the Arena deal here in Sac but they refused to sell. _________________________________ Reunion Radio Podcasts http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/ Twitter @therealoldpro
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2082021, Was not aware of this Posted by HowieDooem, Fri Nov-30-12 11:17 AM
>If they would sell they wouldn't have to move in the first >place... KJ had other owners ready to go so they could move >forward with the Arena deal here in Sac but they refused to >sell.
Wow do they suck. Really unfortunate for Sacramento.
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2107257, Maloofs finalizing deal to Seattle Posted by Buks, Wed Jan-09-13 01:50 PM
@WojYahooNBA: The Maloofs are finalizing an agreement to sell the Sacramento Kings to the Hansen-Ballmer led Seattle group, sources tell Yahoo! Sports.
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2107265, Where we drinkin tonight B? Posted by jigga, Wed Jan-09-13 01:53 PM
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2107272, RE: Where we drinkin tonight B? Posted by Buks, Wed Jan-09-13 01:55 PM
Sheet, would love too celebrate got some classes tonight unfortunately. This could be one paramount year for seattle sports sans M's
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2107276, We'll meet up soon mayne Posted by jigga, Wed Jan-09-13 01:58 PM
>Sheet, would love too celebrate got some classes tonight >unfortunately. This could be one paramount year for seattle >sports sans M's
No doubt. Couldn't care less about them right now tho.
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