A great start.

Kendall is already going off the rails with manic energy and I wonder if his casual reference to the crime at the finale of season one ("The Juice is loose!") is a sign of things to come.
-------------------
http://twitter.com/Melanism

and I'm ready for the ride. Also eager to see exactly how things implode with him and Naomi bc that's inevitable.


Shiv's vulnerability with Sannaa's lawyer character was delicious and uncomfortable at the same time, just because her revealing herself like that is so rare. Curious on whether we'll get anymore information on their friendship(is that the right word?) or not.


I remain Team Stewy, but it's sadly unclear how often he'll be appearing this season.

Explains why she was so desperate

The dialogue In this show is such a blast. The way they all talk boldly but really say nothing, especially Kendall, is so so so fun.

She’ll be in Kendall’s ex’s apartment before the credits on Episode 2.

this nigga is BIG trippin lol.

also Shiv/the lawyer def either chomped down on each other or one of em stole the others man.

… might be his most demonic moment on the show to date. Absolutely completely off the rails on his ego trip.

"The juice is loose baby !!!"

>"The juice is loose baby !!!"

>A great start.
>
>Kendall is already going off the rails with manic energy and I
>wonder if his casual reference to the crime at the finale of
>season one ("The Juice is loose!") is a sign of things to
>come.

Kendall is definitely big tripping. Wonder how many episodes before he cracks. It's funny Shiv still doesn't see she's being played, as smart as she is. But I can't wait to see how far she lets Tom dangle in the wind before he flips on her. Almost feel sorry for the boor bastard, but he's horrible too.

Where the hell is Marcia?

but it took about 5 minutes to think god i've missed all these terrible people terribly

like i completely forgot Kendall did kill someone

and cotdamn I forgot what a run this show was/is on

i took it as him basically telling Logan he doesn't want it, even though he opens up with saying it should be him.
But i thought when he offered up Gerri, Logan could tell Roman didn't *actually* want to do it so he removed him from the mix.

but the couple takes I heard were that he did want it, but by showing some support for Gerri, it proved to Logan he's not enough of a killer for the job.

Logan did seem to be pressing for him before that.
I feel like most people on the show underestimate Roman intelligence wise. But at the same time Logan over-estimates his potential. He's smarter than most people think, but it gets drowned out by him being such a a little ass asshole kid

The waffling disgusted him

If you're not a killer Logan won't fuck with you. Roman is getting the smarts, but won't quite stick the knife. Shiv keeps fumbling the ball thinking she's smarter than she is (though she's making Tom's soul die slow). Kendall does, but doesn't exactly know how to strike the blow correctly (witness the failed coup with Stewie). Plus, he's a (accidental) killer, which is always gonna hang over him.

Man this is a terrible family...

reaction to the way they treat Connor. I felt for him in my chest.

GET MONEY MARCIA

In the show, he's essentially the town fool, so I'm guessing he's more or less a benign presence in this world.

But he represents a particular brand of privileged, libertarian scum that is, IMO, more insidious than anything anyone else on this show portrays.

I'm sure his delusions of grandeur come from a wounded place, but he's the one person who hasn't shown any redemptive qualities. The rest of this horrible family have displayed at least some likeable quality somewhere along the line.

Even Roman's American Psycho Lite act is interwoven with a certain sardonic charm, and the odd, momentary, savant-like display of intelligence and competency.

But Connor really doesn't have any of that. There have been a couple references to some dark shit that happened with his mom, and while that makes him somewhat of an empathetic character, I can't think of anything about him that makes him even slightly endearing.

>I'm sure his delusions of grandeur come from a wounded place,
>but he's the one person who hasn't shown any redemptive
>qualities. The rest of this horrible family have displayed at
>least some likeable quality somewhere along the line.

He somehow believes that the fact that he's kept Waystar at arm's length has made him more righteous than his siblings and the rest of his family. But then he's done nothing else to actually prove it. Unlike say Greg's grandfather (name escapes him) who, for all his own faults, at least spends most of his time loudly denouncing Waystar and Logan even to his face, and taking part in his various philanthropic efforts.


>Even Roman's American Psycho Lite act is interwoven with a
>certain sardonic charm, and the odd, momentary, savant-like
>display of intelligence and competency.

There's all that, and also his brief (very) brief bouts of decency, at least with family, i.e. when he said "it makes me uncomfortable" regarding Shiv's letter about Kendall, as well as when he eviscerated Shiv for being more concerned with propping up a nearly-dead Logan at the shareholders' meeting than the fact that her father was dying in front of her eyes.


>But Connor really doesn't have any of that. There have been a
>couple references to some dark shit that happened with his
>mom, and while that makes him somewhat of an empathetic
>character, I can't think of anything about him that makes him
>even slightly endearing.

felt like a much worse series, with dialogue that wasn't snappy or smart at all

So much back and forth. Especially between Roman and Shiv. She got him in his feelings so easily.

I watch every episode twice though lol after a day of football rage my brain is cooked on Sunday night so I miss shit sometimes.

As much as someone who didn’t grow up in that lifestyle anyways. He seems
Colder or more calculating with Shiv.

I think the painful realization that he is just another object to her has fully settled and what’s left is the guy we see now. The actor has done an amazing job too. Communicates sommuch with just his eyes.

> I think the painful realization that he is just another
>object to her has fully settled and what’s left is the guy
>we see now.

I don't think it's fully settled at all. Didn't take much for him to be all baby talk "I love youuuuu" again once they got on the phone with eachother lol. He's gonna crash hard again.


>The actor has done an amazing job too.
>Communicates sommuch with just his eyes.

No question here. He does an incredible job.

...I didn't realize that the show basically started with Kendall trying to rally his siblings after Logan decides not to elevate him to CEO and the whole thing falling apart when he suggests that Kendall should be CEO and they will be under him.

The more things change...

who told Logan?

Was curious about this myself.

which made me think it wasn't her

and Tom only knew Shiv was there, right?

He's the only one who knew where they were before Shiv and Roman made their phone calls.

>who told Logan?

Can someone please explain the hug and window shots comments between Shiv and Logan at the end?

I understand he is teasing her with a role in the company. I don’t understand what he meant in response to Shiv’s comments about hugs and windows.

She just stayed in the car. It's brought up again in ep.3, as Shiv won't do the puff piece on how she loves her dad and passes off to Roman

Honestly I'm not even 100% sure it was Logan that sent the donuts...

but I guess that's to be expected after the first two seasons

Feds gave him a gift...for now

He's addicted to the spotlight and the attention and as long as he can control things, he's fine. So far he knows exactly what his father is going to do and has been playing him like a fiddle. He just didn't count on Shiv reacting the way she did with the statement (even Logan seemed to disapprove of her response).

But yeah, the Feds showing up certainly saved him from trending negatively on Twitter. Waystar gets to look like the assholes for a few more news cycles.

he's always trying too hard, and it seems like the only people who don't feel visibly weirded out around him on some level are his own family, (and maybe Naomi and the watch dealer guy)

it's hard to even just completely hate him. just because most people who are that level of douche at least appear comfortable in their own skin. I feel so uneasy watching him. Strong is crushing it.

I don’t get the sense she cares about him at all. They are just kindred spirits

he's kind of easy to hate but out of the whole crew i guess he's the most likable when he's not trying so hard to be cool or a strong leader.

it's not so much about actions. everyone hated Janice Soprano more than than Tony, and Janice never killed anyone (who didn't deserve it).

this show is unique in that you can't really get behind anyone, but in moments you may find yourself siding with Logan/Roman/Shiv/Kendal, but there's no hero or even anti-hero

Kendall is terrible, but he's so needy and clueless about anything outside his bubble. I keep thinking of him trying to dap up the guy on the loading dock on his way in through the back lol.

also noticed, the killing has come up in every episode now. first the juice is loose, then logan with marcia, now the return of the private security/fixer guy from that night.


>he's kind of easy to hate but out of the whole crew i guess
>he's the most likable when he's not trying so hard to be cool
>or a strong leader.

>also noticed, the killing has come up in every episode now.
>first the juice is loose, then logan with marcia, now the
>return of the private security/fixer guy from that night.

I mean it's really the only way for this season to ultimately go/end right ? For Logan to use that situation to get himself back on top ? It's the ultimate leverage.

because there will be nothing at that point to keep Kendall from bringing him down with him for the cover up. That's what he seemed to be saying to Marcia who i guess knows everything?

but yea, its definitely gonna be a thing

I feel like Logan could find a way to scapegoat others for the coverup, but either way great point. That's a part of that story I hadn't really been considering somehow haha.

...the most sympathetic Roy.

By default. (You can never really count Conner).

his reaction to that letter. his body language reminded me of the hostile takeover meeting when it was his turn to vote. He loves to talk shit but he visibly shrivels up when it comes time to hurt someone

Shiv being the total opposite. She called out Logan for putting dirt out on Kendall's drug problem last season, but the second he embarrassed her, didn't hesitate to nuke him

I'm a little disappointed with how they've written him so far this season. Last season, he seemed to turn the corner, at least in terms of maturity, after being held hostage in that country. So far this season he's been the same sarcastic, petulant child. he was during season 1 and 3/4 of season 2.

However, with this last episode, you can see some of the stuff behind his attitude and what helped shape him.

... that you speak of, and I had the same suspicion as to why he'd have passed on signing on to that press release: that the hostage situation scared him into re-evaluating himself a bit.

His sarcasm and petulance is a defense mechanism that I don't think will ever fully subside, as you mentioned at the end of your post.

But I think in previous years, in a similar situation, he may have been more likely to sign that press release.

he's still a snarky manboy but there are some slight signs of growth and humanity

i don't know how much of him not signing was hedging (he even said i don't think it's good for me), but you could tell he thought it was a little too fucked up

>i don't know how much of him not signing was hedging (he even
>said i don't think it's good for me), but you could tell he
>thought it was a little too fucked up

I'd even argue that him saying "I don't think it's good for me" was cover for the real reason, which he said out loud too of course. But like he felt like he needed to say something to that effect to maybe try and prove that he was a killer, too.

Anytime Roman is in a position to oppose Logan in any way, all that bravado disappears.

So I've always read that as him being fearful of Logan's wrath, and not wanting to make choices that would put him on Logan's hit list.

>Anytime Roman is in a position to oppose Logan in any way,
>all that bravado disappears.
>
>So I've always read that as him being fearful of Logan's
>wrath, and not wanting to make choices that would put him on
>Logan's hit list.

Then the bravado and confidence is him so desperately seeking his approval.

At least so far this season, he hasn't said or done anything egregiously stupid. The night is still young, but he's #1 just be virtue of not being a raging asshole.

will always out-worse him while they chase Logan's approval through the depths of hell. Connor already knows it will never come.

Gerri is Uncle Junior/Joffrey status. She seems both fully aware and in denial about this.

Was the whole Carolina vs Fisher Stevens scuffle over who can authorize Kendall's entry a proxy fight between Gerri and Logan?

Fucking moron. None of these brats realize they ain’t shit if they not together.

That was a damned good episode

...he couldn't handle it.

From the costume design to the faux humble rich guy shit.



~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

wasn't sure how it'd go, since he's one of the more recognizable guest actors, but he embodied the character perfectly.

>the faux humble rich guy shit.

completely.

he went from fake humble rich bro to full on shark perfectly.

>he went from fake humble rich bro to full on shark
>perfectly.

I never got the humble part from him. He seemed like a prick from the jump. Adrien Brody did great I must say

>I never got the humble part from him. He seemed like a prick
>from the jump.

go for a hike

>From the costume design to the faux humble rich guy shit.

So much so that I almost hope we don’t see him much more this season. Let it sit on that

The guy is unravelling. All that the stuff with Greg wasn't just him "turning the screws." The obsession with going to prison and the FoxNews people not taking him seriously is fucking with his head and he's not built for it.

Is it clear that Greg really did turn against Kendall legit? For all his stammering and hemming and hawing, Greg has tended to stick with Kendall. Especially since he also knows that throwing in with Logan would royally piss his grandfather off.

Maybe he wants to be on Kendall's side on a personal level, but Kendall hasn't offered him anything substantial for his loyalty and even sort of fucked him over with the watch.

On the other side, he's both terrified of Logan AND got an actual offer from him.

I'm terrible at legalese, but signing for the joint defense agreement seems like it would be irreversible, so I think Grendall is over?

Kendall played that pretty badly, I think. The watch wouldn't have hurt his pockets much and would've solidified Greg as an ally. Then again I'm kind of unsure of how aware Kendall is of the cards Greg is holding at this point.

>The guy is unravelling. All that the stuff with Greg wasn't
>just him "turning the screws." The obsession with going to
>prison and the FoxNews people not taking him seriously is
>fucking with his head and he's not built for it.

Good call - I could see this happening. At the very least he may join Kendall.


>Is it clear that Greg really did turn against Kendall legit?
>For all his stammering and hemming and hawing, Greg has tended
>to stick with Kendall. Especially since he also knows that
>throwing in with Logan would royally piss his grandfather
>off.

Great question. I was sort of curious about this myself.

Tom talks to Greg about what his plan with Logan is, but Greg doesn't actually hand him any papers, and his other news about the ATN guys brushing him off also happens off screen. It's fairly plausible to me that Tom didn't really go get either of those things for Shiv but needed a win and felt like Greg was a lock based on their conversation.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

...school of thought when it comes to these things.

Him signing with Logan and giving over the documents would both be too "big" occur off-screen.

Besides, no is the lawyer who Greg can't reach during daytime hours aka Otter from Animal House a one-off character.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Tom is going to flip on Waystar because Shiv isn't giving him any reason to stay personally and professionally. They are talking about his prison sentence like its a done deal now and she's not trying to have a kid now (or ever).

You think for a second Shiv won't be doing her thing the second Tom is hauled out the court? That open marriage is very much in full effect. Tom probably figured a baby would at least let her stay tied to him or at least partially faithful while he's upstate, but that was never once in the cards. Tom is a means to an end for Shiv, and Tom knows it

Logan before he got completely discombobulated still seemed more capable than anyone in that room.

Roman continues to be winning the actual human being contest of of all the Logan kids

more cringe from Kendall as he tries desperately to re-hash the magic of his viral moment from last season.

i feel like the execs like Karl and Frank and Hugo are just more seasoned versions of Tom

about Kendall made me laugh so hard

maybe its that I don't remember Greg ever being that outwardly aggressive about anyone... and that it's only really aggressive by Greg standards

>RE: dunno why Greg's "He's so annoying!"
>about Kendall made me laugh so hard
>
>maybe its that I don't remember Greg ever being that outwardly
>aggressive about anyone... and that it's only really
>aggressive by Greg standards

Exactly. And even in saying that the look on his face was one of abject fear, not aggression or anger hahah.

Greg is the king.

>Exactly. And even in saying that the look on his face was one
>of abject fear, not aggression or anger hahah.

not sure i even caught that, even though that's his default look

Tom destroying Kendall with two sentences at the end of their meeting was probably the highlight of the season for me thus far. He definitely gets it now, to the extent that him just shutting up and going to jail at the end seems incredibly far-fetched.

On the other hand, I'm still wondering what the point is of Kendall's arc this season. Even in terms of being a semi-credible adversary, he's barely even a fart in the wind now. I'm still very interested to see where everything winds up but I'm also still waiting for his arc to really start clicking. We get it, he's woefully inept - and fleshing that out over and over each ep is just seeming like overkill to me at this point.

The pieces are all sort of there in this episode. Kendall continuing to go full self-destruct, Tom mirroring a lot of Kendall's behavior during the suicidal thoughts stuff last season, Ken telling Tom he admires him, Logan starting to really feel his oats again, the prosecutors implying he might not have given them enough to fully pursue the case...


That security guard has been lingering around all season long like a loaded gun, remember.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

>That security guard has been lingering around all season long
>like a loaded gun, remember.

Backing the fascist candidate was a bridge too far. It doesn't pay to be the closest to the throne because you get the most shit. Roman has played Shiv's presidency pretty well.

>RE: Shiv's going to join Team Kendall. It's only a matter of when

the confirmation of Mencken and frat party of fascists was a bit too distressing for me I guess, even though I know what show I'm watching. On top of that, Shiv protesting that she's not going to stand next to him in the photo, like that means something... for some reason I continue to be blown away by her spineless dumbassery.

Want to know what, if anything, will become of the sexual tension between Mencken and Roman.

Also, Kerry freaks me out.

The simple way Tom put Kendall in his place was like...wow. Like an exhausted parent who's simply finished speaking to their foolish child.

>the confirmation of Mencken and frat party of fascists was a
>bit too distressing for me I guess, even though I know what
>show I'm watching.

>the confirmation of Mencken and frat party of fascists was a
>bit too distressing for me I guess, even though I know what
>show I'm watching.

I said to my wife I could feel myself getting viscerally angry.


>On top of that, Shiv protesting that she's
>not going to stand next to him in the photo, like that means
>something... for some reason I continue to be blown away by
>her spineless dumbassery.

LOL totally. What the fuck was that. It was laugh out loud cowardice.


>Want to know what, if anything, will become of the sexual
>tension between Mencken and Roman.

Yea my wife pointed this out to me. Def going somewhere.


>Also, Kerry freaks me out.

Haha how so ?


>The simple way Tom put Kendall in his place was like...wow.
>Like an exhausted parent who's simply finished speaking to
>their foolish child.

https://www.npr.org/2021/11/21/1057352670/succession-recap-season-3-episode-6

"In summary
I may wind up being in the minority on this, but I didn't care for the literal political storyline here that much. I actually like Succession less when it's as explicit about its connections to our current crises as this episode is. Roman mocking Shiv and sarcastically threatening to get "cis white male stank" on her is just another day in any internet comment section. And I think the bit where they think Boyer is a secret vegetarian is just a little ... you know. A little '90s, let's say. I think you can establish that rich people sit around making cynical decisions about politics in ways that are a little less explicit than this.

I look forward to getting out of politics, which is something I feel like I say every few hours."

at the same time, i'm pretty arms length with real politics rn.
i did have a reacton to Menkin being a thing like it was really happening. Partially due to Trump flashbacks, and part because i could see it really happening. My biggest fear is always a 'trump' that isn't a complete buffoon. I mean yeah we can say Trump is a fascist but I doubt he could even tell you what fascism is.

As far as the party comments stuff, i think it's pretty dead on. Roman's been spitting those reddit shitposter comments since the show started. i think its part of why he found Menkin so seductive (both literally and figuratively)
Even Tom/Greg's Hamilton exchange in this setting was gold.

this was my favorite episode of the season, but that said i completely get it. There so much stuff the last few years i didn't watch because i'm like man i don't wanna think about this shit ALL the time lol

And that's partially, and possibly primarily, due to how uncomfortable it made us all feel haha.

>
>>Also, Kerry freaks me out.
>
>Haha how so ?
>

i mean, i know she's his assistant, but when did the come up happen? why is she talking? where is Marcia?

I'm curious about all that too for sure.

The conservative party stuff made me forget that him speaking down to Lisa was another scene that was not merely cringeworthy, but actually agonizing. It was just too much real life. Like, "Yes Succession, I do have a job. I don't need to see it played out here."


>>the confirmation of Mencken and frat party of fascists was
>a
>>bit too distressing for me I guess, even though I know what
>>show I'm watching.
>
>I said to my wife I could feel myself getting viscerally
>angry.
>

>The conservative party stuff made me forget that him speaking
>down to Lisa was another scene that was not merely
>cringeworthy, but actually agonizing. It was just too much
>real life. Like, "Yes Succession, I do have a job. I don't
>need to see it played out here."

then 5 minutes later threaten the hotel front desk clerk's job because the room he wanted isn't available.

but in some awkward passive aggressive kendall ass way, like "look, i'm.. i'm just looking out for you here"

>then 5 minutes later threaten the hotel front desk clerk's
>job because the room he wanted isn't available.
>
>but in some awkward passive aggressive kendall ass way, like
>"look, i'm.. i'm just looking out for you here"

That was as close to a win Tom is gonna get this season, but damn if it wasn't a spectacular own.

I do wonder what Ken's plan is. Sounded like he fired Sanaa, but what his case, arc, endgame, or plan is still muddy as hell. It would be hilarious if he ended up in Sandy's seat and being a pawn for Stewie and co. What other angle he has I'm not even sure.

Shiv still poking the bear thinking Logan won't toss her aside in a second. I get flexing her power and position, and wanting daddy's approval (which all the kids need to be in therapy for), but she's setting herself up for a fall. I'm sure Logan leaning towards Roman's pick had to be influenced in some way by Logan being pissed and letting Shiv know who's still the boss.

How is it Roman looks almost competent this season?

dude negotiating fascism levels with his crush.

i will say Roman has much more of an understanding of this 4-chan world than Kendall does lefty twitter. Mainly because Kendall is 100% performative about it, meanwhile you can tell Roman is fully at home in the bannonverse.

>dude negotiating fascism levels with his crush.
>
>i will say Roman has much more of an understanding of this
>4-chan world than Kendall does lefty twitter. Mainly because
>Kendall is 100% performative about it, meanwhile you can tell
>Roman is fully at home in the bannonverse.
>
>

I've never been a big Naomi fan, even in Season 2, but I'm baffled at how much they've whittled away her character. In Season 3 she's an airhead who can't form complete sentences, whereas in Season 2, she was a well-educated, thoughtful person who was also a tortured soul. I have difficulty paying attention to whatever Kendall is doing in scenes with her because I'm too focused on seeing whether the writers will actually give her a complete thought this time. And they never do. It's incredibly irritating.

Kendall losing his mind over the lost gift (in addition to everything else), stopping short after saying "I wish I was--", shortly followed by a shot of him looking over the balcony at none other but The Vessel...shit. A clever and heartbreaking choice by the...cinematographers? Editors? I don't know, but that was brutal. We'll see if anything comes of it. (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/29/nyregion/vessel-suicide-hudson-yards.html)

I was never someone who rooted for or cared about Roman in any way, even in his partnership with Gerri, and I'm so glad. I hate him and all his garbage business that he conducts with reprehensible men in bathrooms.

Finally, I don't even know where to start with the party decor and entertainment. From the prep scenes to execution, I really wished I counted the number of times I gasped. I did genuinely love the Compliment Tunnel though.

her nonchalantly, but deliberately picking the most treasured wine of Kendall's ex-wife -- as a house-guest -- was so fucking devious and perfect for her.

but like you said, she has just sort of floated away into a ghost. when Logan made his proclamation about going after Pierce again, it seemed like a silly reminder there was a past storyline where Naomi came from.

With any show now (was just thinking this about Insecure last nite as well), I'm curious whether or not any faults I find within episodes or in the middle of seasons is COVID-related haha. Like I wonder if the writers had grander plans for Naomi but had to cut costs after COVID hit.

Your reference to her more well-rounded deviousness in ep2 this season being a good example. That seemed like a portion of the story that could've kept going somewhere.

But since then, as you guys mentioned, she's just been sort of a needless sideshow.

idk to me it felt like the whole night* she was trying to figure out how to help him and couldnt really crack it
- do i just go along w/ all this weird shit he's coming up w/ for the party to make himself feel better?
- will a gift make him feel better?
- does he want his dick sucked at the party?

ultimately Kendall just needed to feel a real personal connection w/ someone real which she did embracing him at the end.

*really all season tbh. the dude needs a real therapist, and to take that buyout deal and chill somewhere

My point was just that they did such a good job fleshing out some deeper dialogue between the two of them last season that I'd have expected that to continue in some regard into this season. But I suppose not everything needs to be spelled out in words/dialogue for character development to be present.

Because honestly it was touch and go

Any number of things should have pushed him right over the edge, literally.

Everybody in the family is sad and horrible and it's a joy to hatewatch

A pivot moment needs to be coming. It took Roman being held hostage to eventually turn him into the worst person in the world. There has to be him building towards something besides "manic, miserable asshole who's always catching Ls."

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

SIGNIFICANT course correction then followed.

The dude was flexing out there like an older, more embittered Joffrey Baratheon (RIP)

...there needs to be some narrative progress. After spending all this season and most of the last building towards WayStar's issues with the DOJ, it can't just be, "They get off with a fine and Logan's back in control." Tom immediately goes from "mope obsessed with prison" to the exact same asshole he was Season 1.

"No one/nothing ever really changes" can be narrative poison for even the best shows. I loved The Sopranos, Mad Men, and Bojack Horseman, but running around into narrative circles really did lead to diminishing returns in all those cases.

If by the end of the season it's "Kendall is back with Logan and they're deciding who's going to be the next president," I'm going to be severely disappointed.

Feels like audience is getting played like the show’s characters.

the first episode was perfect, but the whole narrative lacks the drive from S2

although S2 might just be as good as Succession can ever be, never to be topped

I loved all of Boardwalk, to be clear. But after the explosive end to season 2 they never really got anywhere close to that same level again.

I worry that Succession could possibly fall into that same trap.

Hopefully we're wrong tho. Hopefully these last 2 episodes take it in a direction/directions we don't even see coming.

I think something is still going to happen with the DOJ investigation, doesn't feel like they're actually wrapping it up.

Now that you mention it, they may have been not-so-subtly foreshadowing exactly that when everyone was saying "this isn't a celebration ..." even tho they all went on to celebrate anyway haha.

So hopefully you're right.

Because, as already stated above, the remaining stakes aren't as compelling. The hostile takeover was snuffed out (or so it appears?) and with no threat of the doj, what's the real danger to these people?

>I think something is still going to happen with the DOJ
>investigation, doesn't feel like they're actually wrapping it
>up.

Too much early celebration despite Gerri's warning.

I wonder if the endgame will be for them to be broken up into smaller companies?

Starting Logan weak when the show started to the point where he's teflon now seems to be leading to a necessary jolt.

(the UTI, the hike, etc etc)

... so I suppose I should expect for him to keep on keeping on for another 2 seasons.

But man, show me the scene where the inheritance that Marcia hasn't already hoarded gets read to the kids. Put it in my veins.

even though it would be crazy for Strong to leave the show, i can see it

So I felt like that was too obvious.

But who knows.

internally it's damn near a no-brainer he's gonna die. He's broken as fuck.

but for us thinking would the show really go full Game of Thrones like that and take Jeremy Strong away from us.
Logan makes a little bit more sense, but Strong would be more shocking (externally)

Not telling you anything you don't know of course. Just saying I'd be SHOCKED but at the same time not shocked. I mean I dunno if you watched Boardwalk Empire but if you did then you remember S2 .......

it's crazy how that doesn't even pop in my head when i think of characters being snatched from us but that was huge. I think GoT kind of overshadowed everything in that regard.

>it's crazy how that doesn't even pop in my head when i think
>of characters being snatched from us but that was huge. I
>think GoT kind of overshadowed everything in that regard.

but damn if wasn't the most "life ain't fair" show I've seen since The Wire

Science fiction stuff in general just does nothing at all for me, and never really has no matter how hard I've tried.

So because of that, I never really had any interest in GoT from the beginning. Eventually tho, several likeminded, anti-sci-fi friends convinced me that it was so good that I'd be able to overlook the dragon stuff.

So, fine. My wife (who's like me in that regard) and I decided to give it a go a few months before that final season so we could take part in the cultural nerdom. Our collective skepticism prevented both of us from really getting into it for the first few episodes. But about midway thru season 1 I was just about all in on the familial backstories as well as being suuuuper into the storylines about the north and south and the land disputes, and the history and all of that. I really wanted to know where all that was going. My wife tho, for her part, was still bored with it lol.

So by the time we were about to watch the final episode of that season I was like, damn this *is* cool, I'll finish with or without you lol. Then I watched the final episode and ....................... fuckin dragons. It literally ended with a cliffhander of sorts about dragons.

OUT ! Haven't gone back to it or missed it since.

Maybe I'm being too stubborn haha but that type of shit has always been a dealbreaker for me, even when I actively try to ignore it/not be annoyed by it.

part of the show (except for the dragons of course).. but the human drama, the power dynamics, the battles, and really the whole world drew me in.

I wasn't very interested either, but after some hounding i started watching around S2 time. It took me a week or two to get through the first ep. i kept getting bored and distracted but once i got through it i got hooked pretty quick. I was home with a back injury so i knocked it all out and caught up in a week and a half.

but yeah, you gave it enough of a shot, and i hear what you're saying about dealbreakers. there are plenty of things like that i don't feel the need to spend my time on, so it's not your thing lol

Seriously though, I'd guess $5 to $10 million? All the staff, security, the DJs, the champagne, the open bars, the gift bags, the stage, the cross, the pyro for the stage, Baby Wu-tang Clan, the tree house, the other dumb "concept" rooms. Yeah, that could add up to $10 million.

I started of thinking 1 million but Naomi seemed somewhat impressed with the 2 mil check, and nudged him to take it, so i started thinking maybe 500k

But i know nothing about this type of thing

>but Naomi seemed somewhat impressed with the 2 mil check

ok, that makes so much more sense. carry on lol

But wait, Roman was NOT getting his ass handled by some goons in the black SUV at the end there? Was the point of that scene just to make us feel like that was gonna happen, or?

got caught up last night. this season isnt really hitting the same for me. i might just be burned out from watching it too quickly.

And I have watched each season live (and binged seasons 1&2 a second time so my wife could catch up before S3) so I don't think that has anything to do with it.

We'll see how it ends but I have definitely felt that *something* has been missing from this season, though I can't really put my finger on what it is.

We'll see how it ends.

it should had advanced further by now or we should be on something else. im definitely plenty interested to see how it ends.

am i the only one still hoping theres another, more public, exposing of tom swallowing his load? maybe greg says it in front of logan lol

This fucking episode. Goddamn.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Seriously, every single scene was pushed to the maximum amount of discomfort Like, they haven't had this much of everyone being awful to everyone else since the Thanksgiving episode back in Season 1.

Where to start? Ah, tragic Romulus. Undone by a dick pic. And Shiv positioning things so either gets to get rid of him or both him and Gerri.

Banner episode for how rotten Shiv episode Shiv is. Obviously the scene with her mother demonstrated how and why she's screwed up, but the scenes with Tom were sociopathy.

And with Kendall... man, I thought the last episode was his rock-bottom. But I'll say this: he either has to die next episode or he's got to definitively get the upper hand with Logan. Because that dinner meeting signified the absolute end of their existing relationship dynamic. And honestly, it felt like it was as far as they could go with Kendall in general.

All of the constant jokes about fucking his dad, his mom, his sister-- sending an inadvertent dick pic to his dad felt precisely right.

Funny that Tom's pain (stuck in a loveless, childless life) and Roman's pain (sending a dick pic to his dad on accident) are, like, the opposite ends of the male nightmare spectrum.

I'd like to see Kendall just get out, without any money, and be free of all ties that bind. It won't happen, but it'd be nice. I don't know what's going to happen. I kind of doubt he kills himself, because he's such an incredible part of the show... and he's obviously never going to have the upper hand on Logan, because Logan can lord the caterer's death over him.

I kind of wonder if the caterer's death plays into the finale, considering it was brought up multiple times here-- maybe Kendall publicly confesses to that and points out his dad's role in covering it up?

Shiv is the worst of all of them.

i think kendall does the podcast to confess and implicate logan.

when comfry casually mentioned the podcast about the sad waiters death, kendall stalls and looks scared and says "keep tabs on that" or whatever. he plays it like he's scared, but i see it as Kendall seeing an opportunity. He gives his Dad one last chance by inviting him to dinner and testing him to see if he'll buy him out like Roman offered at his 40th. Logan not only laughs that that was a joke to fuck with him, but then he lets his grandson potentially eat poisoned ravioli, mocks kendall for being an idiot, then humiliates him over the waiters death just to pour salt on the wound.

Kendall is done with his family. He wants blood. He knows he cant win "the right way" like he tried in the S02 finale and the first few eps of this season. So he has one card to play. Come clean publicly, and take down his dad, sinking the company value and letting Mattson buy a depressed asset, thus crushing his families power, the one thing they care more about than money.

I also think he and Mattson have been playing Waystar the whole time. Mattson was in the 40th bday treehouse. Kendall knew roman/shiv would show up just to get to Mattson. He staged banning them from the tree house only to conveniently let Roman in. I think Kendall and Mattson orchestrated the tweets to pump their value to a "partnership of equals" or whatever that was called, and crushing Logan will give Mattson the final upper hand.

Just some theories. No way Kendall is (currently) dead in the pool

>i think kendall does the podcast to confess and implicate
>logan.
>
>when comfry casually mentioned the podcast about the sad
>waiters death, kendall stalls and looks scared and says "keep
>tabs on that" or whatever. he plays it like he's scared, but i
>see it as Kendall seeing an opportunity. He gives his Dad one
>last chance by inviting him to dinner and testing him to see
>if he'll buy him out like Roman offered at his 40th. Logan not
>only laughs that that was a joke to fuck with him, but then he
>lets his grandson potentially eat poisoned ravioli, mocks
>kendall for being an idiot, then humiliates him over the
>waiters death just to pour salt on the wound.

This would make a lot of sense.


>Kendall is done with his family. He wants blood. He knows he
>cant win "the right way" like he tried in the S02 finale and
>the first few eps of this season. So he has one card to play.
>Come clean publicly, and take down his dad, sinking the
>company value and letting Mattson buy a depressed asset, thus
>crushing his families power, the one thing they care more
>about than money.
>
>I also think he and Mattson have been playing Waystar the
>whole time. Mattson was in the 40th bday treehouse. Kendall
>knew roman/shiv would show up just to get to Mattson. He
>staged banning them from the tree house only to conveniently
>let Roman in. I think Kendall and Mattson orchestrated the
>tweets to pump their value to a "partnership of equals" or
>whatever that was called, and crushing Logan will give Mattson
>the final upper hand.
>
>Just some theories. No way Kendall is (currently) dead in the
>pool

This also makes some sense, like Kendall planted Mattson there to lure his siblings into a trap.

And the dinner being his last attempt to make amends with his dad would make sense in that regard, too.

The pool scene at the end would be kind of perplexing, if all that ends up being the case. But maybe that scene was Kendall struggling with the decision as to whether or not to actually go through with turning himself in or whatever.

she used the 'what happens in vegas' line for their brutal honest snm thing or whatever that was, and a few minutes later its "I may not love you but i love you... painful to say the least
quick to smell blood in the water with Gerri. She def seemed to decide to go ful shitbird after the conversation with her mom, but I'm sure it won't be long until she's back to pretending she's not a terrible person.

>and a few minutes later
>its "I may not love you but i love you..."

Poor Tom.

i had completely forgotten she requested an open marriage ON their fucking wedding day lol

i think she realized she mightve kicked a little too hard though so that's where all the hemming and hawing came from as she tried to clean it up

I’m still processing all the fuckery because the dinner convo would normally be the climax of an ep and that was barely halfway in

Roooooooman my guy with the ultra L

They really did hit us with all the explosives all at once

last ep was fangless

I'm reinvested now

Kendall lives
GoJo and Waystar merge
Lukas brings in Kendall to represent his interests (buying Waystar was essentially his idea)

But the previews for next week makes the first one seem unlikely.

>Kendall lives
>GoJo and Waystar merge
>Lukas brings in Kendall to represent his interests (buying
>Waystar was essentially his idea)
>
>But the previews for next week makes the first one seem
>unlikely.

That's exactly what they want you to think.








..... I'm prepared to come claim my L if I turn out to be wrong tho haha

Logan using HIS FUCKING GRANDSON as a taste tester like he's Ceaser

Shiv telling Tom he ain't shit TO HIS FACE than poo-pooing it and twisting the knife at the same time after her post coital clarity. Shiv must have that fire box for Tom to have even smashed that night.

Roman, WTF you doing buddy? Everything undone by a dick pic?

The Conner / Willa cringe. He sucks so bad he can't even pull off the 'proposal at an engagement' cliche. Willa knows the deal.

The whole Caroline / Shiv exchange. Ho Lee $h!t.

The final scene. The show feels too smart to take the easy route of Ken drowning, but at the same time, it could work? Like, what else can this guy do?

Damn these are horrible ass people. Like,

HORRIBLE
ASS
PEOPLE

i purposely didn't watch the previews for next week though.

i just don't know where you can go with him, and that conversation with Logan seemed so final (and yeah using his grandson as a crash test dummy, damn).

the whole conversation. his I'm better than you... with Logan being like, oh word? Ay, remember that time you killed that kid? What was going on there. However he expected that meeting to go. i'm sure it wasn't that. he lost AGAIN.

I do wonder if he *is* dead, would he put something out there that implicates Logan in helping him cover it up. Or just somehow find a way to torture him from beyond the grave. Doesn't seem like he had time for a revenge plot though but who knows.

It was just a very on the nose visual metaphor.

I do think it's possible that he dies this week.

I do hope that if he lives or dies, he implicates himself and Logan in the caterers death. I kinda feel like this is where the story has to go, as they've dropped waaaay too many hints otherwise. And it can't be something that Logan can just weasel out of like the merger or the Justice Department investigation and then life goes on.

His desire to stay rich, and his desire to avoid consequences for his part in the company.

So I've got to think one of those changes in the finale. Either he decides he wants out without any money, or he publicly airs his own dirty laundry to cleanse himself of his secrets. I'd much rather he not die (for reasons stated elsewhere in the thread), but if he dies, it'd have to be with a big splash.

That said, no matter what Kendall airs out... feels like Logan could still effectively weasel out of it, lol. Tom said it best to Kendall a couple episodes back: "I've never seen Logan get fucked once." Kinda the moral of the show. Until biology runs its course and yanks Logan from this mortal coil, feels like him being too big to fail is the whole point.

>I do hope that if he lives or dies, he implicates himself and
>Logan in the caterers death. I kinda feel like this is where
>the story has to go, as they've dropped waaaay too many hints
>otherwise. And it can't be something that Logan can just
>weasel out of like the merger or the Justice Department
>investigation and then life goes on.

I think he lives and turns himself in, and throws Logan under the bus in the process. That would explain why he kept repeating "I'm better than you" and actually prove that to be true, to some degree at least.

But yea I agree that the fact that they alluded to it like 5 or 6x throughout the season (and before this weeks ep, the allusions were sorta subtle for the most part) means that they have to go somewhere with that storyline next week, I'd think. So I agree with you.

I actually pictured Bryan Cox/Logan saying “oh, word?”

He could pull that off. Hahahahaa

into something he could possibly respect on some level
"so it's like saying, fuck you?"


>I actually pictured Bryan Cox/Logan saying “oh, word?”
>
>He could pull that off. Hahahahaa

>RE: Lol! on that not i like how he attempted to twist the dick pick thing
>into something he could possibly respect on some level
>"so it's like saying, fuck you?"

>Logan using HIS FUCKING GRANDSON as a taste tester like he's
>Caesar

of all the fucked up shit these people do, the way he called his own grandson into the room like that, then dismissed him when he didn't die, was the coldest act of anybody on the show

Can't just let that shit go unpunished.

>>Logan using HIS FUCKING GRANDSON as a taste tester like
>he's
>>Caesar
>
>of all the fucked up shit these people do, the way he called
>his own grandson into the room like that, then dismissed him
>when he didn't die, was the coldest act of anybody on the
>show

I loved the first two seasons of this show in a way I can't even explain, but nothing is really happening here...

DOJ threat? Nope, slap on the wrist fine.
Tom going to jail? Nope, gotcha.
Kendall brings Logan down? Nope.
They lose the company to Stewie? Nope.

Kendall's gotta be dead, or else what purpose did this season even serve?

1. All the things you listed, the "threats"? Those are things happening. They're affecting and morphing the characters. Just because none of them permanently changed RoyCo doesn't mean they were stakeless or had no impact.

2. Part of the whole point of the show is "these conglomerates are more powerful than the government and are too big to fail." Clearly it takes a perfect combination of skill, timing, pressure, and luck to even get *close* to bring down a major media conglomerate-- and even all of that may not be enough. And none of that has happened. The only thing that will bring down Logan, much like Murdoch or Trump or the rest, is if Logan dies.

I don't want them to kill off Kendall. Kendall is, in a lot of ways, the most interesting asshole in the family. He's certainly at a manic low right now, and something's going to happen to him, but it's not yet clear what. Considering much of the season has been a "I'm better than them, but I also want no consequences and their money" arc for Kendall, wouldn't be surprised if the season ends with either Kendall walking away without money or publicly confessing his part in wrongdoings (especially the caterer's death) to cleanse himself. Or maybe he fucks up the Madson deal irrevocably for his dad. Or maybe he successfully enlists a sibling to his cause after they say "enough's enough" with Logan-- or maybe Gerri if she gets canned for Roman's dick pic. And there are certainly plenty of other possibilities not mentioned here.

But there's no real replacement for Kendall on the show. His character has changed more than any other over the show and over this season. And this show has never gone the "shock death" route. They almost always go the "shock how this person's life is fucked for the immediate future" route.

If anyone dies, it would almost certainly be Logan. He's the one whose health is clearly in question, and he's the one whose death would have by miles the most shattering impact on RoyCo's position in America and the family in general.

>I loved the first two seasons of this show in a way I can't
>even explain, but nothing is really happening here...
>
>DOJ threat? Nope, slap on the wrist fine.
>Tom going to jail? Nope, gotcha.
>Kendall brings Logan down? Nope.
>They lose the company to Stewie? Nope.
>
>Kendall's gotta be dead, or else what purpose did this season
>even serve?
>

just sort of feels like for the first time there's been a stasis in the plot. I also don't want Kendall to die, he's my favorite. Something about the way Jeremy Strong plays the character makes Kendall easy to root for despite how despicable he can be.

She's gone from idealistic prick with morals to, what, Kendall with boobs and a different set of mommy issues over these 3 seasons? That may be boiling things down a bit far and/or sexist, for which I apologize, but she's pretty much in the position kendall was at the beginning of the series after starting being an outsider with the Bernie stand-in that wanted to bring Logan down. We've seen her ditch her ditch her 'moral' stance thrice so far (talking the cruise victim out of testifying, co-signing a fascist, and gaslighting Gerri). Ken may be the most 'sympathetic' changed fuck-up in this family (and I use that very loosely), but Shiv is very much in the running.

Either way, they are all terrible, horrible, entitled, unredeemable POS across the board. I love it.

>1. All the things you listed, the "threats"? Those are things
>happening. They're affecting and morphing the characters. Just
>because none of them permanently changed RoyCo doesn't mean
>they were stakeless or had no impact.
>
>2. Part of the whole point of the show is "these conglomerates
>are more powerful than the government and are too big to
>fail." Clearly it takes a perfect combination of skill,
>timing, pressure, and luck to even get *close* to bring down a
>major media conglomerate-- and even all of that may not be
>enough. And none of that has happened. The only thing that
>will bring down Logan, much like Murdoch or Trump or the rest,
>is if Logan dies.
>
>I don't want them to kill off Kendall. Kendall is, in a lot of
>ways, the most interesting asshole in the family. He's
>certainly at a manic low right now, and something's going to
>happen to him, but it's not yet clear what. Considering much
>of the season has been a "I'm better than them, but I also
>want no consequences and their money" arc for Kendall,
>wouldn't be surprised if the season ends with either Kendall
>walking away without money or publicly confessing his part in
>wrongdoings (especially the caterer's death) to cleanse
>himself. Or maybe he fucks up the Madson deal irrevocably for
>his dad. Or maybe he successfully enlists a sibling to his
>cause after they say "enough's enough" with Logan-- or maybe
>Gerri if she gets canned for Roman's dick pic. And there are
>certainly plenty of other possibilities not mentioned here.
>
>But there's no real replacement for Kendall on the show. His
>character has changed more than any other over the show and
>over this season. And this show has never gone the "shock
>death" route. They almost always go the "shock how this
>person's life is fucked for the immediate future" route.
>
>If anyone dies, it would almost certainly be Logan. He's the
>one whose health is clearly in question, and he's the one
>whose death would have by miles the most shattering impact on
>RoyCo's position in America and the family in general.
>
>>I loved the first two seasons of this show in a way I can't
>>even explain, but nothing is really happening here...
>>
>>DOJ threat? Nope, slap on the wrist fine.
>>Tom going to jail? Nope, gotcha.
>>Kendall brings Logan down? Nope.
>>They lose the company to Stewie? Nope.
>>
>>Kendall's gotta be dead, or else what purpose did this
>season
>>even serve?
>>
>

There’s lots of you lot on the internet saying this stuff.

Nothing has been happening for the entire run of the show, just absurdly wealthy and provocatively stupid people re-arranging entire industries over petty beefs with one another and shouting "business!"

None of the maneuvering between the Roys and their various external nemeses are meant to "matter" in any durable sense. No matter what happens, the Roys will be fine. The stakes are experienced by the people we don't see, or barely see, like the dead waiter.

>Nothing has been happening for the entire run of the show,
>just absurdly wealthy and provocatively stupid people
>re-arranging entire industries over petty beefs with one
>another and shouting "business!"
>
>None of the maneuvering between the Roys and their various
>external nemeses are meant to "matter" in any durable sense.
>No matter what happens, the Roys will be fine. The stakes are
>experienced by the people we don't see, or barely see, like
>the dead waiter.

>Nothing has been happening for the entire run of the show,
>just absurdly wealthy and provocatively stupid people
>re-arranging entire industries over petty beefs with one
>another and shouting "business!"
>
>None of the maneuvering between the Roys and their various
>external nemeses are meant to "matter" in any durable sense.
>No matter what happens, the Roys will be fine. The stakes are
>experienced by the people we don't see, or barely see, like
>the dead waiter.

Thanks for this breakdown and helping me affirm in my correct decision in not wanting to watch this show.

This is completely off tangent, but this breakdown reminds me of that old USA show Suits and ultimately why I stopped watching; for the most part, none of the major characters faced any consequences for their actions. Got very tired and stale watching rich folks create problems with other rich folks based of hubris and greed with little to no risk involved.

come on, man. that's just low

they may be underestimating just how much she can fuck them

for the sake of that poor fictional kid

That guy is soooooo demoralized and emasculated.

>That guy is soooooo demoralized and emasculated.

my man has been serving up the best one-liners, even through all the pain

"camel's labia" when describing the diner food was an all-timer

>>That guy is soooooo demoralized and emasculated.
>
>my man has been serving up the best one-liners, even through
>all the pain
>
>"camel's labia" when describing the diner food was an
>all-timer

I laugh out loud 2-3x an episode at his bars.

"You don't have to pretend to like Hamilton here."
"But... I like Hamilton."
"Sure you do Greg. We all do."

i know we're not supposed to like him so i don't know if it's because Skarsgard is crushing it, or i just hate the character, period.

maybe its just his odd combo of pure dickishness, and on the spectrum awkwardness, that i can't wait for his scenes to end.
Adrian Brody's character and Mencken are both garbage people too, but I don't have the same visceral reaction when they're on screen

Matson just makes me tired

but I'd love to see Adrien's character again

Watching him and Logan go at it was a treat

With Roman it was just weird

Her voice changes when she's trying to play you. That's where Kendall and Roman's experience in RoyCo comes in handy. They may be assholes/fuck-ups, but when they get in a room with an important person, they know how to play them without looking like they're playing them. They can make you think they're your best friend for just enough time to solidify a deal. Not to say they don't get outplayed, cause they often do, but still, Shiv hasn't quite developed this skill as well as they have, and I think that's why Logan often goes cold on her.

But it's worth noting her tactics usually work on women. She was able to get a female victim to not testify about the sexual abuse on their cruises. She was able to stave off a takeover by appealing to Sandy's daughter about how they could help each other in the future. Gerri won't fall for it though. She knows better. Plus, she knows where the bodies are buried.

And then left his pack behind

I've never been more disappointed in Jeremy Strong's commitment to realism lol


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

TOM DOGG HAS HAD ENOUGH, BABY! Absolutely gangster shot of him arriving. Somehow didn’t see it coming. Tremendous.

I almost wonder how seriously they thought about a rare needle drop before realizing how on the nose that would be. I need season 4 tomorrow.

Feel kinda bad for the anti-Tom and Greg crowd though, small as it is. It's Tom and Greg season.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

>Feel kinda bad for the anti-Tom and Greg crowd though, small
>as it is. It's Tom and Greg season.

him changing his face into the "stupefied Tom" after he passed Logan...while looking straight at Shiv

TOM!!!!!!!

***** more spoilers for this season ahead, but--*****






Tom telling Logan repeatedly what he'd do for him, even go to jail.
Tom caring for sick Logan, feeling connected with him.
Tom telling Kendall that Logan never gets fucked.
Tom's obvious hurt at not just the baby stuff, but especially the "I don't love you" talk.

He's needed his path in, and he saw clearly at the end of last season and especially back half of this season that Shiv just wasn't going to keep him there. And whereas Shiv's given him no affection or respect this season, he's gotten it from Logan multiple times.

Even the wording of that talk with Greg seemed at the time like something where he'd end up on Shiv's side after their play. Can't believe in retrospect that I didn't see it coming. (The mark of great writing, obviously.)

>Even the wording of that talk with Greg seemed at the time
>like something where he'd end up on Shiv's side after their
>play. Can't believe in retrospect that I didn't see it coming.
>(The mark of great writing, obviously.)

who has ever looked after you in this fucking family? do you want a deal with the devil?

Tom had been asking himself and doing the math all season

The Sporus to his Nero. Tom knew right away.

...who told Logan where the Roy kids were to send donuts.

That was awesome.

i really enjoyed it even before the end.

O_O

Incredible stuff, especially the last 3 eps.

Culkin has obviously been great this year too, but Macfadyen has been a secret MVP on the show since the start. And especially considering how the season ended, would love to see him get his flowers.

... as well as he does. He really makes you *feel* every mood he has.


>Culkin has obviously been great this year too, but Macfadyen
>has been a secret MVP on the show since the start. And
>especially considering how the season ended, would love to see
>him get his flowers.

at least amongst the siblings, it kind of feels "obvious" that the show actually wouldn't make the reveal of Kendall's presence in the car the night of the kid's death that big of a deal. maybe it would be to a wider public, but of course the siblings can find a way to look at it that doesn't hold their brother at fault. I mean, they're three jackasses who've spent 3 seasons trying to be head of Waystar|Royco for heaven's sake. Of course it ultimately doesn't matter to them either. I'm sort of annoyed with myself that I didn't anticipate that response until right before Roman made his first joke. But of course Roman made a joke right. There's literally no other type of response his character could have had.


And well played to Armstrong/Mylod/whoever with the Tom and Greg "bottom of the top" scene lol. Again, I feel like a dumbass for not seeing it. Not even taking into account his complicated feelings about Shiv, why the fuck would Tom go along with any plan that involves Kendall?

Logan's the worst, but on this move, he's not wrong. Fuck them kids.

... if the siblings split up again in the near future, and Shiv/Roman having this info can be utilized at a pretty effective trump card. But yeah, them having a fairly casual "no real person involved" response-- largely because they needed Kendall on their side for this move-- shouldn't have been so surprising.

First, give Strong all the Emmys.

But otherwise, I not surprised at where it ended. I guess Tom got his revenge, but the show of course is averse to any real change.

All that set up for the pay-off to be Romulus and Shiv realizing their Dad doesn’t love them.

I’ll be back later, I guess.

it felt like my only motivation for watching was just to see what the payoff would be at the end of the season.

a lot of the seasons potential was dampened with the doj investigation being neutered and essentially turning out to be a non threat. most of the best moments/dialogue were from when they were under the gun.

that paired with the possibility of kendall helping to take down the company was a compelling backdrop that upped the stakes probably past anything in the 1st two seasons.

i have no idea why they didnt ride that suspense and sense of doom right up to the finale (or even into next season) and instead pivoted to some streaming app acquisition/merger that nobody really cares about.

its one of the more baffling creative directions to a quality show that i can remember.

i figure he will find a way out of it to still win on his terms. if it does go through as they laid it out then yeah it would not be interesting.

i definitely do hope they make actual changes early in the next season and they dont just draw out the buyout.

its definitely way past time for a real shake up and not just build up to the twist of everything is still the same.

I think folks are overstating the circular nature of it. I mean the entire premise of the show is based on ... a succession plan so of course it's gonna feel a little redundant to some extent. But I think they've done a nice job of mixing up the attempted coups and all the various storylines and relationships among the characters and factions.

I also think we need to be willing to cut the writers and production team some slack in terms of how this season fares in comparison with the first two seasons, as it's well documented that production was slowed due to the pandemic. So even if I feel like some loose ends weren't tied up well, or the storytelling was a little sloppier than we're used to from this show, that they still stuck the landing and have a lot of ammo going into next season and beyond.

But beyond the pandemic aspect, I just don't really understand what people expect other than what we've gotten from this show. I have gripes with the DOJ storyline as well, as well as how quickly the Matsson storyline came into play seemingly out of nowhere, but again I think that type of sloppiness can be attributed to the pandemic as opposed to a knock on the writers and production team(s).

Anyway I thought they nailed the ending and am excited to see where they take it from here. And of course the acting has been terrific all around.

im wondering if roman is going to try to crawl back to logan or if he will stick with kendall and shiv. do any of them even stick together?

does logan rub it into roman that matsson actually wanted him, does roman not being onboard derail the deal?

how does shiv play being crossed by tom?

will greg up the ante to dating 3 women on the same date? if so, how does he one-up royalty?

how will greg treat his gregs?

for me i think i want the focus to be less on attempted take overs. just give us more family drama. so uh less succession lol

that episode made me want to revisit season 3 to see if i feel different about it. i will probably rewatch the whole show before season 4 comes out.

but 3 had some absolute banger eps and the best finale to me.

even if this is the lesser of 3 seasons (i'm not necessarily set on this), i loved every minute of it. there was never a moment i wanted to dip out.

>I think folks are overstating the circular nature of it. I
>mean the entire premise of the show is based on ... a
>succession plan so of course it's gonna feel a little
>redundant to some extent. But I think they've done a nice job
>of mixing up the attempted coups and all the various
>storylines and relationships among the characters and
>factions.
>
>I also think we need to be willing to cut the writers and
>production team some slack in terms of how this season fares
>in comparison with the first two seasons, as it's well
>documented that production was slowed due to the pandemic. So
>even if I feel like some loose ends weren't tied up well, or
>the storytelling was a little sloppier than we're used to from
>this show, that they still stuck the landing and have a lot of
>ammo going into next season and beyond.
>
>But beyond the pandemic aspect, I just don't really understand
>what people expect other than what we've gotten from this
>show. I have gripes with the DOJ storyline as well, as well as
>how quickly the Matsson storyline came into play seemingly out
>of nowhere, but again I think that type of sloppiness can be
>attributed to the pandemic as opposed to a knock on the
>writers and production team(s).
>
>Anyway I thought they nailed the ending and am excited to see
>where they take it from here. And of course the acting has
>been terrific all around.

It's the kind of shakeup that can keep the show interesting. Otherwise we've basically just hit the reset button once again.

other than entitled brats. im excited to see how (or if) they can buck up and be something.

They made it pretty clear from the very first episode this season that Kendall’s battle was going to be insanely uphill— and that he’d have to stop tripping over his own dick. And he’s incapable of that. It gave Kendall a tremendous arc to play, but it was unlikely to bring down his dad’s company unless he could recruit his siblings to join.

And the DOJ thing still netted two huuuuuuge fallout points: 1. The President’s out, so next season, they’ll clearly have to deal with a loose cannon. 2. It reportedly hurt RoyCo’s value enough that Logan had to seriously consider that pivot from buying to selling.

As I said somewhere above (and as Tom said explicitly), guys like Logan don’t go down until they’re dead. And there are so many interesting places they can go from here. If the deal goes through, what do the kids do? Is Tom actually helped by Logan, a guy he clearly shouldn’t trust? Like others here, I’m skeptical Logan is cool with just cashing out and abdicating, so he’s got to have other moves up his sleeve. If the deal doesn’t go through, Logan’s just galvanized his kids against him. How does that play out? What does Shiv do with Tom? How does the new presidency affect them? What the fuck does Kendall do, and do his siblings ever use the “I killed a kid” against him?

I don’t need a “resolution”— it’d feel too tidy, too outside of real life. I expect Logan to remain obscenely powerful and borderline untouchable until he dies, as all these media patriarchs do. I expect the kids to continue to try to jockey for position. I expect Tom and Greg to keep scraping up the ladder as they do. As long as the dialogue is this sharp and the turns are this brilliantly structured, I don’t really care what they do. I’ll be there.

I don't think it's ever happened. The way it happened in the show is the way it happens in real life, whether with major media orgs or large corporate organizations in general.

Had Logan been taken down by the DOJ this season it would've been the most unrealistic aspect of the show thus far haha.


>RE: When has DOJ or a whistleblower brought down a media network tho?
>They made it pretty clear from the very first episode this
>season that Kendall’s battle was going to be insanely
>uphill— and that he’d have to stop tripping over his own
>dick. And he’s incapable of that. It gave Kendall a
>tremendous arc to play, but it was unlikely to bring down his
>dad’s company unless he could recruit his siblings to join.
>
>And the DOJ thing still netted two huuuuuuge fallout points:
>1. The President’s out, so next season, they’ll clearly
>have to deal with a loose cannon. 2. It reportedly hurt
>RoyCo’s value enough that Logan had to seriously consider
>that pivot from buying to selling.
>
>As I said somewhere above (and as Tom said explicitly), guys
>like Logan don’t go down until they’re dead. And there are
>so many interesting places they can go from here. If the deal
>goes through, what do the kids do? Is Tom actually helped by
>Logan, a guy he clearly shouldn’t trust? Like others here,
>I’m skeptical Logan is cool with just cashing out and
>abdicating, so he’s got to have other moves up his sleeve.
>If the deal doesn’t go through, Logan’s just galvanized
>his kids against him. How does that play out? What does Shiv
>do with Tom? How does the new presidency affect them? What the
>fuck does Kendall do, and do his siblings ever use the “I
>killed a kid” against him?
>
>I don’t need a “resolution”— it’d feel too tidy, too
>outside of real life. I expect Logan to remain obscenely
>powerful and borderline untouchable until he dies, as all
>these media patriarchs do. I expect the kids to continue to
>try to jockey for position. I expect Tom and Greg to keep
>scraping up the ladder as they do. As long as the dialogue is
>this sharp and the turns are this brilliantly structured, I
>don’t really care what they do. I’ll be there.

He was still at the wedding when the kids were on the road to confront Logan. He had to take the call from Shiv, get Greg on board (that conversation was amazing), tell Logan what was coming and get there after Logan delivered the kill shot. The kids seemed to have been driving for a while too, as it was daylight when they first got the van and was already getting dim by time Tom and Shiv spoke.

At the end of the day, no matter how you explain it (or not) , that made for an awesome scene when Tom walked in

i know they set it up to be pretty obvious that he did but theres always the possibility they just wanted us to think that.

i figured he called logan and logan sent a helicopter for him.

Logan might be a piece of shit, but he at least had a play in building this empire.
The fuck have these kids ever done that they get to have a say in anything, let alone the rights to take over? Fuck all of them up their entitled little asses.

I just finished watching, and i haven't read anything but i think it's clear enough Tom dimed them out.

it seems he actually dedicated himself to the business but in logans eyes he wasnt good enough so thats that.

shiv and roman are pretty naive and entitled to think they have the right to anything.

i kind of hope they develop greg to be the one that actually gets to take over. i think that would need at least two more seasons though. maybe by the end of season 4 that would be believable but i think it would take two more.

early in the show i thought he might be the one to take over but he's way down on my list now.

>early in the show i thought he might be the one to take over

i realized quick i was on a completely different lane than were the show was going.

So long as it was brief lol

he's the example of how high a dumbass with no soul can go, but there are limits

and Kendall is a fail-son via the drugs; having an addiction to anything but winning is such a mortal weakness to Logan

Roman can make a deal, as we saw a few times this year

And Kendall has legitimate business experience

Shiv is entitled and naive as they come. I think when they’re at the Republican meetup Roman even teases her that she advised on 3 or 4 Dem campaigns and lost them all?

Experience in the corporation? Check.
Business minded? Check.
Absolute company man, loyal to the letter? Check.

Might not be a “Roy” but he’s the only one who isn’t naive about where the power lies and who isn’t fucking himself endlessly. Had the role in the scandal, had the shitty testimony before Congress, but hey, he did the CEO thing, played dumb during the investigation, and even volunteered to do a bid for the only guy that ever mattered.

Logan pretty clearly wanted it to be Roman at day’s end, because Roman could just be a little desperate puppet for him. But Roman can’t help but fuck himself every time. Kendall should’ve been the heir but, as Will said, the drugs are a non-starter, and Ken is just such an addict in every way, with the manic swings, the destructive behavior, the desperation for affection. Greg is too much of a dunce, a stooge— can climb the ladder, but there’s totally a ceiling (but he’s doing it the right way in following Tom’s model of ladder-climbing).

And Shiv may as well be Connor— no real experience, plus she clearly thinks herself the smartest person in the room at all times. Logan’s mockery of her in the finale was so real, lol. He’d done that voice before.

Logan seemed legitimately touched when Tom said he’d go to jail for the family. And then he warned Logan about the kids coming after him. He’s been far more loyal than any of the kids and he has the perfect experience to take over. Maybe Tom as CEO and Greg eventually becomes COO or something.

Him taking Logan’s chicken at the end of last season let him know I’m in it to win it. And I might not be the cuck wuss you think I am. I’m sure it also made an impact on Logan that he was willing to take the jail time for them. They aren’t cut from the same cloth but the fabric is similar

*or wherever tf he’s from. Somewhere in the bumfuck Midwest to running basically Fox News and marrying into a dynasty. He’s making moves.

>Logan that he was willing to take the jail time for them. They
>aren’t cut from the same cloth but the fabric is similar

Logan despises where he came from and resents the fact that his kids want the same place he carved out in life, without going through the same shit he did (he does try to give them the same awful parenthood experience he had though)

like you said, Tom ain't trying to go back to where he came from either, and Logan respects him putting his balls out there in regards to jail and Shiv (in contrast, Kendall not willing to do a bid for his dad at the end of S2)

there are many reasons why tom makes the most sense and i do want to see him get that for at least a little while. it would just be hilarious if greg somehow became the one that takes over.

that he didn't find in any of his kids (actual killer notwithstanding).

>
>And Shiv may as well be Connor

They're all Connor now

Logan’s mockery of her in the finale was so real,
>lol. He’d done that voice before.

That was amazing, because in that moment it seemed like Logan was cornered and having a melt down, but seconds later he ripped their souls out.

I agree that none of them could ever take over (really they only way was if they smartened up and teamed up sooner)

Kendall tries to be as cold-blooded as his dad but he isn't as smart, and the lifetime of drug addiction is flat-out inexcusable to Logan

Shiv is just cunning enough to figure out things a beat late; she can't even be the CEO of her own marriage even though she would say she has Tom completely controlled

Roman is truly pathetic, a boy-man who is dying for any sort of perverted parental affection and buries his self-loathing behind non-stop irony

they are, however, merely dogs that Logan has kept on a leash "to kick over and over again"

Logan has def rigged their development.

i guess even to the point where they legit believe they have some kind of right to take over the company.

At least Kendall put *some* work in. Shiv barely started working there 3 months ago. And Romulus is just.. yeah.

does this mean Tom was the person in the early eps that dimed out all the kids being together when Logan sent the donuts?
To be clear, i don't think Tom had some master plan, I think he reacted in the moment, but he's been driven from the jump by being in Logan's good graces

Shiv out Roman'd Roman with her mommy comments during the ceremony. just lethal.

Didn't realize until the rewatch that it was Matson who motions to Logan to send Roman away. I thought it was all Logan the first time.
I mentioned this above but i want to retract my comments on Matson's character. Watching him and Logan go back and forth was so good.

What was the plan for these kids? Stop the sale (which given how much was already in motion is laughable), and then what?

Someone on a podcast called this last scene the Tomfather. For me it was the second time in the episode I got Godfather vibes. The first time was the moment right before sends Roman away. something in how it was filmed and the score.

>What was the plan for these kids? Stop the sale (which given
>how much was already in motion is laughable), and then what?

Stop the sale, and then sideline Logan. Shiv told Tom to run something about having him step down for health reasons. They laid out the rest in the car, Kendall becomes CEO, and Shiv and Romulus fight over which one gets to be president and which one runs a huge divison.

I don't think they were against the merger so much as they were against the idea of the merger where Matson gets complete control and installs his own board. I figure their plan was to wait a bit so that they could bargain for more of a position of strength. I have no idea if that was even possible.

And yeah, I gotta assume it was Tom who told Logan about the early season meeting.

as far as this was in motion with finance and lawyers flying out, say their plan goes though and they actually sideline Logan, why in the world would Matson come back to the table for a worse deal? he wasn't exactly desperate for this to begin with. They believe they have the chops to arm twist him into a deal where they retain power? These kids were on some movie of the week shit. Even Shiv's "We will stop you" was After School Special af.

I think part of Logan's anger in that scene was frustration on how bad his kids suck at this. (and yeah as someone mentioned earlier that's largely his fault) We saw that slight sense of pride last season when Kendall flipped it on him at the press conference.

The whole 'you're playing toy fucking solder' line was so dead on. they don't really understand anything.

7) Kendall Birthday party
8) Kendall and Logan dinner and Roman Dick pic
9) Kendall’s confession to his siblings and Tom’s move

I’d have to go back and watch seasons 1 and 2 to see if there’s a better 3 ep run but I don’t think there is one

That’s like Hustler Musik/Receipt/Shooter from
The Carter 2

there's so much i've forgotten

like i forgot how it started and just how close Kendall was set to take the reigns

i forgot Logan is in his 80s. thought he was early/mid 70s like Cox

and just how much of a piece of shit Roman was to 'regular' people.
i remember that little kid with the check, but the way he tried to demean that waiter who was chatting up his girl

how incredibly punchable Shiv's sidepiece Nate is

even how involved Marcia was early on.

on Austerlitz rn. Gotta say this is a treat the second time around

>even how involved Marcia was early on.
>

I always think about the episode where Shiv does a background check on Marcia, finds that there’s a huge chunk missing, and then Marcia confronts Shiv and tells her she can ask her anything. To date, this hasn’t been followed up on. Not that Shiv needs to track down any more info or even take an interest in Marcia, but I figured they’d slowly lay out why Marcia is so mysterious and what is behind all of that. Not only has she taken a backseat since that episode, she’s barely been featured at all.

Even if she found out Marcia was a murderer or some shit, wouldn't matter. She knows where Logan's bodies are buried.

I enjoyed her few appearances this time around, where she clearly knows Logan's fucking his assistant, and she counters this by remaining married to Logan, bossing the assistant around, and doing whatever the fuck she wants.

Kind of wonder if Season 4 may end with the death of Logan and Season 5 deals with everyone scrambling to get their piece of the pie. In that situation, Marcia would be a fucking huge player.

And it's pretty awesome to watch everything Tom does, knowing where his journey is headed. It all so clearly builds.

is a precursor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDmBtmO8T4M

he might be this simple mid-western, nice guy, goofball but we've all seen his asshole side, and even from Shiv he was only gonna take so much abuse before he clapped back.

So yea he seems to end each season with some kind of clapback(s). My man.

completely forgot about it. Logan didn't even know how to react lol

Tom gives off that vibe that he can be easily bullied, and i guess he can to a point.
Kendall got Wambscan'd at that diner meeting too

>Tom gives off that vibe that he can be easily bullied, and i
>guess he can to a point.

He's absolute doormat to the Roy kids.

It's only when he sees an opening to align with Logan in a secure way, does he make that move.

He's an opportunist with no actual balls.

Conversely, he's a sadistic bully to everyone beneath him.

>>Tom gives off that vibe that he can be easily bullied, and
>i
>>guess he can to a point.
>
>He's absolute doormat to the Roy kids.
>
>It's only when he sees an opening to align with Logan in a
>secure way, does he make that move.
>
>He's an opportunist with no actual balls.
>
>Conversely, he's a sadistic bully to everyone beneath him.

IMO that was a bit of a nervous, emotional breakdown after dealing with his horrible wife, and after his offer to take the fall was rejected because he wasn’t a meaningful sacrifice.

So that reads less to me like whoa, he had the balls to take Logan’s food- an alpha move if ever there was one- and more like a psychological break where he’s not even considering the consequences.

Far as I can tell, each time Tom flexes on someone who isn’t beneath him in the hierarchy, he does so in a way that underscores his actual weakness.

Even his power move at the end of S3 puts that in grand display IMO

you can't even give him that one, geez

His move on Shiv isn't really a move against someone beneath him, either ...

for the family, but later he agreed to Wee-Bey Greg's bodies, like a true soldier.

PUT A LIL RESPECT ON THIS MAN'S NAME, CT

>PUT A LIL RESPECT ON THIS MAN'S NAME, CT

Tom's the fucking best.

>Tom's the fucking best.

So so so good.

It's just Tom doing what he does when he has a position of power over someone, and when that person his little to no ability to fight back.

When Tom doesn't have a clear power position, he's a straight up lap dog. the definition of a corporate kissass, a coward looking to align himself with anyone whose power he can co-opt for his own gain. He's an absolute doormat.

It's why he's married to Shiv at all, and that's irony here:

She has very little to gain by marrying him. Her love, such as it is, for him is genuine, even with the savage emotional abuse that comes with it.

Him? He loves her last name, and the proximity it gives him to everything that comes with it. She could have been anyone, as long as she had the right name and position, he'd have fallen for her.

Sure, there's a certain ruthlessness required to be that person- but this has diminishing returns.

The second Logan finds himself without the high ground, Tom is fucked.

Or, possibly worse, he's played himself up to the role of sacrifical lamb.

That could come as a sacrifice to appease congress/the FBI- remember, Tom is the one most intimately connected to the whole cruise fiasco, and that may not be over, despite appearances- or, it may come at a moment when blood proves thicker than water.

Whatever Tom is, in the end, he's no fucking Roy- and Logan will be the one to make that crystal clear.

I'm betting that his whole, Logan never loses speech will come back to haunt him in a very real way.

IMO he's a textbook tragic character- we have just enough to empathize with him, in spite of his demonstrated sociopathy.

He'll climb and climb and find himself in a position of power, until he isn't, and he'll be an empathetic figure once again, before being fed to the wolves.

Tom's as bitchmade and punchable as they come. Like one of Master Genuis' goons said about Christopher, "He's only bold because he's semi-hooked up with the Soprano crew".

Thing is, Chrissy was all the way about that life and still got smoked by Tony.

Tom ain't that, and he's getting got by the end of Season 5.

>When Tom doesn't have a clear power position, he's a straight
>up lap dog. the definition of a corporate kissass, a coward
>looking to align himself with anyone whose power he can co-opt
>for his own gain. He's an absolute doormat.
>
>It's why he's married to Shiv at all, and that's irony here:
>
>She has very little to gain by marrying him. Her love, such as
>it is, for him is genuine, even with the savage emotional
>abuse that comes with it.
>
>Him? He loves her last name, and the proximity it gives him to
>everything that comes with it. She could have been anyone, as
>long as she had the right name and position, he'd have fallen
>for her.

... not give Shiv too much credit.

Tom very clearly loves Shiv, the way he acts with her and toward her in their scenes together makes that abundantly clear. And that can be true even if you're of the belief that a lot of that love has to do with her proximity to power and his ability to benefit from that, as you mentioned.

It's actually not at all clear whether or not Shiv loves Tom at all, or ever did. And I think *her* actions with him and toward him in their scenes together make her feelings about him ambiguous *at best* .. but it's my opinion that her feelings are very clear: she has zero respect or love for him, and is only with him because she can use and abuse him at her will. You're right, she doesn't gain anything by being with him in terms of her position in the world, but nobody said that her relationship or reasons for being in it had to make sense. But even if you believe that she *does* love him, it could be argued that her love has more to do with his lower class roots and her (perceived) ability to abuse him and treat him like trash due to those humble origins, than it does any true feelings for him as a person.

there's obviously a transnational/opportunist component on the Tom side of the relationship, but even with that it's clear he loves her more than she loves him, and its not just *all* opportunism that she's a Roy.

Whatever Shiv does feel for Tom, it pretty much mirrors the way Logan loves his children. Kick him around, let him need you, ease up a bit, give him just enough so he doesn't up and bounce... etc...

>there's obviously a transnational/opportunist component on
>the Tom side of the relationship, but even with that it's
>clear he loves her more than she loves him, and its not just
>*all* opportunism that she's a Roy.
>
>Whatever Shiv does feel for Tom, it pretty much mirrors the
>way Logan loves his children. Kick him around, let him need
>you, ease up a bit, give him just enough so he doesn't up and
>bounce... etc...
>

they're still entitled assholes but abused nonetheless.
going through the first 2 seasons, it's easy to see how they ended up how they are, and why they saw fit to barge in like little brats in the finale.
Logan constantly dangled it in their faces like a sadistic dick.
He's also correct to not give it to them, because even though they all occasionally step up and display some skills throughout these seasons, none of them are fit to run the company, and all of them together would be even worse.
they'd likely just either lose it anyway, or run it into the ground.

With all of these shows that feature mostly horrible people, there has to be a hook to keep us connected to those characters.

In this case, no matter how awful those kids are, we get a consistent push-pull that reminds us of just how much they are the product of their environment.

The humanity in all of us is what connects us to them. They're awful, vile, horrific human beings in many ways, and yet, we're so routinely reminded that they are the children of their awful, vile, horrific parents that we never go all in on our disdain for them.

didn't work for me
(aside from sticking modern music in a 60s show)

this show has so many things i like and i'm a huge fan of Whittaker/DiNofrio, i love the premise, the era, etc...

but they damn near make Bumpy a super hero on this show. It's not like a Tony Soprano, or a Vic Mackey, who you find yourself either empathizing with or rooting for despite being trash human beings by all measures
It's more reverse engineered anti-hero. Bumpy's a 'bad guy' but he's really kind of a good guy. Jax Teller is another example of that.

i dunno, maybe it got better but i tapped out after 6 eps or so