Post your reviews or spoilers in here, and let's the the other thread continue to be speculation of other talk. This worked well for Episode VII: The Force Awakens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOYeNWVeSdY

Leia music from Empire in here so maybe the rumors of Ingvild Deila to play Princess Leia and Guy Henry as Tarkin are true. We already seen the back of Tarkin's head in one trailer but it was rumoured he was gonna be CGI.

AND for the Star Wars Rebels fans, the GHOST SHIP!!!
https://i0.wp.com/makingstarwars.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/IMG_5298.png

OHHH man I really hope they show or have a quick cameo of the crew. That would be so amazing. Maybe pan by the front of the ship and show Hera and Rex communicating with the Rogue One crew. Fak. I still have hope that theres also a quick cameo of Thrawn in this movie. I'm not fully convinced they got someone like Lars Mikkelson to voice him in the cartoon for no reason. He looks like him too. He and his brother could be in this movie together.

Since this is leading RIGHT up to the beginning of A New Hope, it'll probably end with the Rogue One crew successfully transmitting the plans to the Tantive IV with Leia on board and show her briefly acknowledging that she has them. Most of them will probably get killed, but they'll get those plans sent first. I think that trailer shot of Jyn limping when the Tie comes up is her transmitting those plans right before getting killed.

As for the Ghost crew, I really doubt we'll actually see any of them. Really cool that they put that ship in there though. At most maybe we'll hear Hera's voice over the comlink checking in during the battle. Since Rebels is currently around 2 years earlier in the timeline from Rogue One, they don't want to basically spoil Rebels by showing Ghost crew members alive at the time leading up to A New Hope. By that point in the Rebels timeline, I would expect some of that crew to have been killed, or no longer fighting with the Rebel Alliance (especially Ezra and Kanan, and probably Sabine and Zeb.)

THe revelation of "Fulcrum" was just good writing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NHiTTmxR60

I hope they find a way to get him in more than just this film. Whether it's an animated show or somewhere in episode 8 or 9.

Possible spoilers, but this is all speculation. here's the tracklist:

1. He's Here For Us (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
2. A Long Ride Ahead (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
3. Wobani Imperial Labor Camp (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
4. Trust Goes Both Ways (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
5. When Has Become Now (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
6. Jedha Arrival (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
7. Jedha City Ambush (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
8. Star-Dust (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
9. Confrontation on Eadu (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
10. Krennic's Aspirations (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
11. Rebellions Are Built on Hope (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
12. Rogue One (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
13. Cargo Shuttle SW-0608 (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
14. Scrambling the Rebel Fleet (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
15. AT-ACT Assault (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
16. The Master Switch (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
17. Your Father Would Be Proud (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
18. Hope (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
19. Jyn Erso & Hope Suite (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
20. The Imperial Suite (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)
21. Guardians of the Whills Suite (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)


You can pretty much follow the entire plot line of the film, including the locations, based on this tracklist.

Track 17 being titled "Your Father Would Be Proud" looks like a spoiler for the death of Galen Erso. Reminds me of "Qui-Gon's Noble End" from The Phantom Menace soundtrack. Not as big of a shocker since I would expect Galen to get killed, but still. It comes at a point in the soundtrack when it may actually be Jyn's death - I think it's the climax to the film.

The last three tracks are listed as suites. I think they will play during the end credits. In the John Williams Star Wars soundtracks there would always be an ending theme that is played directly following the last scene of the film as one track. For example, "The Throne Room/End Title" from A New Hope.That end title track always had a medley arrangement of all the major themes from that film. But with this not being saga film and not doing things exactly the same way, maybe those three suites ARE the ending credits medley, as separate tracks.

That would mean track 17 may be the climax of the film:
17 Your Father Would Be Proud (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)

And Track 18 may be the final scene.
18 Hope (From "Rogue One: A Star Wars Story"/Score)

That would make perfect sense, because "Hope" leads directly into "A New Hope" the same way as the ROTS soundtrack ended with "A New Hope/End Credits".

That "Hope" track might play as Leia receives the transmission from the Rogue One crew while she is on the Tantive IV.

And yes, I'm both a music nerd and a Star Wars nerd.

some people already putting it in their top 3 SW movies

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/richard-brody/rogue-one-reviewed-is-it-time-to-abandon-the-star-wars-franchise

this is one of the worst reviews I have ever read. Just one excerpt says it all:

But it seems as if the condition for assembling this diverse group is not letting them say or do anything of note, anything of any individual distinction, anything of any free-floating or idiosyncratic implication. There’s none of the Shakespearean space politics, enticingly florid dialogue, or experiential thrills of the best of George Lucas’s “Star Wars” entries (“Attack of the Clones” and “Revenge of the Sith”).


Really???? Well, why would we think it could be better than the masterpieces Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith?

Obviously Armond White has a pseudonym.

but his taste, particularly on mainstream films, is....odd to say the least.

He (over) values the importance of directorial distinctiveness, so the very idea of a franchise, which by definition is about consistency and cohesion, goes against his criteria.

this dude has GOT. GOT. GOT. to be fuckin with people

He's a brilliant writer, overall. He's just a better read when it comes to indie fare.

The bad:
All of the problems with this movie rear their heads in the first hour of the movie and never really get resolved cleanly. Jesus who are all of these characters? And why are we hopping from planet to planet so briskly? And what point does the Forest Whitaker character serve? And what rank and purpose does the bad guy in white have in the Empire? A lot of loose ends, a lot of monologuing, a lot of self-induced confusion in the first hour. (And the CG Tarkin plays far too big of a role)

The good:
But man once her dad dies it's ON. For the back 90 minutes of this movie you're part of a thrill ride. I can't imagine how hard it must be to direct something of this scale - from ground, to air, to space and done so seamlessly! The big stuff looks BIG. The Death Star appears massive. The AT-ATs surface from the smoke like monolithic monsters. The action is at a breakneck speed, but you never lose track of what's going on down the stretch. And it all really is breathtaking - we've been in snow and lava and desert a few times, but never on a tropical beach and the setting plays for a welcome contrast to what is easily the most violent scene we've ever seen in a Star Wars movie. It really does put off Saving Private Ryan vibes, but not in a heavy handed way. The toll of the war feels real, the deaths feel significant, and the eventual accomplishing of the mission feels earned. Lastly, when Vader appears once more to mow down the last of the rebels and try to take back the plans one more time, I did really feel like he was going to succeed and foil their plans - even though we know he doesn't.

I'm going to see to it again. Had a great great great time watching that last hour and a half or so.

Question for the Star Wars heads:
Does the destruction of that Kyber planet mean there's no more crystals to be had? We were wondering that as we left the theater. It COULD make sense, but I likely know a lot less than some of you experts. My rationale was Luke's lightsaber is a hand-me-down, so is Rey's, and Kylo Ren's must not be made of crystals. Does that make sense at all or do I just not know enough?

just not for the general public. That shit and the little nods to Rebels etc is for the people engulfed in the lure. Is that a problem? Probably. Will the second half + Force Awakens make casual fans want to go and watch/read the other Star Wars movies and book. Probably. At the least the other movies.

The bad:
- Jesus who are all of these characters? And why are we hopping from planet to planet so briskly?
> Don't have an answer to this since they are supposed to be just new every day people from that world. The intro stuff is probably what the reshoots were about. Making it less confusing or making it more natural/interesting.

- And what point does the Forest Whitaker character serve?
> Fought next Anakin back in the day during The Clone Wars. Fought early on against the Empire. This is for the fans of the lure.

- And what rank and purpose does the bad guy in white have in the Empire?
> Another one for the fans of the lure. If you read Catalyst you would have more background on him. He wanted to be in Tarkin's spot. They beefing. Catalyst shouldve been THE FUCKING CRAWL.

- A lot of loose ends, a lot of monologuing, a lot of self-induced confusion in the first hour. (And the CG Tarkin plays far too big of a role)
> No no to most of this. Shoot all of it. Tarkin had to play a big role, he was a HUGE part of that time. Not even Vader would disrespect him. It only sucks cause the actor is dead. They had to do it. Playing around it wouldve created the loose ends you speak of.

I was totally on board. I think the spin off films should have a different vibe in terms of the meta film tropes (opening crawl, music, wipes for scene changes, etc.) while still feeling like Star Wars in universe.

But this movie NEEDED that opening crawl, first to set up an establish what was going on for people who hadn't read Catalyst and second because the way they actually shot the opening would have been perfect for the crawl. I figured the crawl would be out of place because of the film starting with a flashback, but it wasn't really a flashback. More of a flash forward after Galen was captured. An opening crawl could have established the time period, the fact that Galen's family was in hiding with the Krennic and the Empire looking for him to continue work on their new super weapon.

>Catalyst shouldve been THE
>FUCKING CRAWL.

of A NEW HOPE's crawl tho...

so i was good with that decision

but when we're nitpicking that, shows how good it is.

>- A lot of loose ends, a lot of monologuing, a lot of
>self-induced confusion in the first hour. (And the CG Tarkin
>plays far too big of a role)
>> No no to most of this. Shoot all of it. Tarkin had to play a
>big role, he was a HUGE part of that time. Not even Vader
>would disrespect him. It only sucks cause the actor is dead.
>They had to do it. Playing around it wouldve created the loose
>ends you speak of.

you can have fan service that's not shoe horned in.

Tarkin didn't have to have that much on screen time; his sniveling spelled out quickly how white cape wanted his slot. For instance, he didn't have to spell out that Mads betrayed them...that scene felt clunky and cheapened both their characters...it gave Krennic a cartoonishly large blind spot.

Gerrera should have been established...again you don't have to say him and Akakin were fucking hoes in Tatooine, but outside of the quickie Mothma (I think it was Mons) speech on how he's an extremist we got nothing. I was also confused because it seemed he had no men, just paid mercenaries? It would have been nice to see a bunch of hardcore extremists, even a montage of some of the mayhem they caused for the Empire (or the rebels) since the horrors of war was a big theme of the movie.

if Cushing was a live or they hired someone else (they couldnt have done that either LOL) but since Mothma is technically a new version they couldve gotten away with it. But if it wasnt CGI i dont think people wouldve had a problem. Its an easy way to say its not needed. But he really was, Krennic was going after his position. If that part of the story was in a crawl, I tell you right now. No complaints about his screen time would be happening.

The fan service was done beautifully man. It wasnt forced. It made sense. The movie ends 10 mins before our OG movie. It cant be all new characters and end up being from their point of view. Thats just bad business and bad story telling. If this was just a book you can get away with telling events from another unknown characters perspective like they did with Lost Stars.

FYI THAT wouldve been an amazing cameo!

Because it doesn't really matter to this movie.

cause they're damn near there with the pixels...i could have squinted and tarkin probably wouldn't have been in the uncanny valley.

it's just that the muscle movements are a bit off. the other cgi character near the end they pulled off almost perfectly

and honestly, i have more of an issue with vader's speaking voice during his first scene. it just didn't have the aura of original trilogy vader. but boy did they bring it home the next time he showed up. that shit was intense.

i have more of an issue with vader's speaking
>voice during his first scene. it just didn't have the aura of
>original trilogy vader.

Jeah som'n major was lackin there

but boy did they bring it home the
>next time he showed up. that shit was intense.

Best scene bar none

>- A lot of loose ends, a lot of monologuing, a lot of
>self-induced confusion in the first hour. (And the CG Tarkin
>plays far too big of a role)
>> No no to most of this. Shoot all of it. Tarkin had to play a
>big role, he was a HUGE part of that time. Not even Vader
>would disrespect him. It only sucks cause the actor is dead.
>They had to do it. Playing around it wouldve created the loose
>ends you speak of.
>
>


People forget the "Vader! Release him!!!" scene in ANH. Tarkin is probably the ONLY person (aside from The Emperor) who could speak to Vader that way. He had his respect. ( TBH, I wonder if Vader actually has any military rank within the Imperial Hieracrchy, other than "Lord Vader" aka the guy who kills you when you screw up...)

I wanted to flip it around, but I think Tarkin would be third in line if he survived Vader and the Emperor.

I really liked it but I agree the first half had flaws.

They could definitely have streamlined the first half of the movie. The characters were whatever, K was almost too bitchy. Honestly, I didn't even think you needed the whole father/daughter angle (and thus losing that entire lab planet trip.) Would have rather seen Jin more of a bad ass, Han Solo type (basically, what they tried to establish Diego Luna's character as.)

Vader's "Don't choke on your aspirations"... Was telling a Dad joke in there to foreshadow the "I am your father" moment?

Still, I thought the film looked amazing. One of the better looking Star Wars films. While I didn't love the first half, I was never bored. I was hoping the heist would be a little more involved but there was so much going on in those battles that it's hard to complain about that.

Ultimately, it is what it is. It's an entertaining popcorn flick. It lacked any single timeless or even memorable moment for me (the blind Jedi was cool.)


HOT TAKE: Diego Luna's speech is what I kind of think terrorists think when they go down with the beliefs they realize might be flawed.

And this film did a good job showing that. When Diego Luna had to kill the fellow rebel spy it let us know this was gonna be different. The imperials were coming, dude couldn't climb because of his arm, and he was acting all shakey so you know he would have given up everything during an interrogation. He had to go. That also gave more weight to him being ordered to kill Jyn's father later in the movie, since we'd already seen that he had no problem killing someone in cold blood for the cause.


>HOT TAKE: Diego Luna's speech is what I kind of think
>terrorists think when they go down with the beliefs they
>realize might be flawed.

Often times extremism involves following one person rather than a cause (see most offshoot religions.) That's what Luna does and why his speech struck me so much because he believed in Jin's story and gave it the power to supposedly excuse all of the horrible things he did. (She's also a huge reason he didn't shoot Mads.)

The bottom line is almost all rebellions are terrorism. The difference is who wins and writes the history books later.

>Question for the Star Wars heads:
>Does the destruction of that Kyber planet mean there's no more
>crystals to be had? We were wondering that as we left the
>theater. It COULD make sense, but I likely know a lot less
>than some of you experts. My rationale was Luke's lightsaber
>is a hand-me-down, so is Rey's, and Kylo Ren's must not be
>made of crystals. Does that make sense at all or do I just not
>know enough?

The old pre-canon explanation of the kyber crystals were they were harvested by jedi from multiple planets..and they were multiple light colors (blue, green, yellow - all but crimson red. The Sith/red lightsabers were constructed using synthetic sith crystals...mainly because the jedi had a monopoly on those planets were khyber crystals were grown.

The new canon explanation of lightsabers and crystals was just introduced in the latest novel whereas all lightsabers, (jedi, neutral force user, dark jedi, and sith) were made from the same natural Khyber crystals. the color of the blade was determined by the user's connection with the force AND the crystal. So for instance, all jedi's had blue, green, and any other non-green color. The dark force users and sith's connection automatically made their blades red because of the crystal's effect of 'bleeding'. In the case of neutrality, Ashoka, the jedi who left and denounced the order, had 2 white bladed lightsabers. I believe she recovered those lightsabers from the dark jedi, Asajj Ventress (who was killed by Anakin). Those blades were red at first but, Ashoka's neutral connection to the Force made the blades white. Heinz can maybe speak on it more since he's read the novels - i think.

I'm not sure if the planet of Jedha was the ONLY planet with Khyber crystals in the new canon because Luke had a hand me down up until Return of The Jedi where he made a green bladed lightsaber. It hasn't been explained where he got that crystal from....yet. Kylo Ren's lightsaber has been said that the design of it was ancient. But it has some connection to an ancient Jedi temple where Ezra found a tri-bladed lightsaber in the TV series, Rebel......which happens to be a DOPE show as the seasons go on.

>Question for the Star Wars heads:
> My rationale was Luke's lightsaber
>is a hand-me-down, so is Rey's, and Kylo Ren's must not be
>made of crystals. Does that make sense at all or do I just not
>know enough?


that makes sense. It wouldexplain why Kylo Ren's saber blade is 'jagged'. A different type of crystal.

TARKIN DA GOD = DAT NIGGA SNOKE

Does something happen to him to slow him down and keep him from force throwing everyone in the Holy Trilogy?


Having Bail go back to Alderaan kind of makes you think this is like maybe days or hours prior to ANH though.

You have Leia with the plans on the Tantive IV and Vader chasing after her on the Devestator. I guess it could be hours, but gotta be the same day.

Vader went nuts at the end of Rogue One because he had to - at that point he was desperately trying to get to those plans before the Tantive IV got away from the Rebel capital ship that Vader had just incapacitated. (By the way, while everyone is gonna focus on how killer Vader was in that scene, that shot when the Devestator came out of hyperspace and just destroyed those ships before they could escape was NUTS.)

In ANH when Vader boards the Tantive IV to try to get the plans, at that point they already had that entire ship in custody. So there wasn't as much urgency. Only question is why did that imperial officer not want to fire on the escape pod with the droids on it just because they didn't see any life forms.

There really wasn't any point in the original trilogy with Vader that urgent in needing to get to something quick. He probably could of done it if needed, but it would take a good amount of energy out of him.

I like that in that last scene of Rogue One while going nuts, he wasn't physically jumping around or anything. He was still walking with a similar cadence to ANH. But his hands were quick with that saber and he was force throwing and choking like crazy.

>(By the way, while everyone
>is gonna focus on how killer Vader was in that scene, that
>shot when the Devestator came out of hyperspace and just
>destroyed those ships before they could escape was NUTS.)

I was whispering to myself "but all those rebels are going to jump to hyperspace and spread news of the death star".....then SMASH by the Devastator and then I immediately recallrf Tarkin saying that Lord Vader would take care of the rest of the rebel fleet.

That was a crazy scene. As well as pushing the downed destroyer into the other one and destroying the shields. Awesome.

and psychology.

Physically, the dude is in pain because his suit isn't designed for comfort. Palpatine designed it to be life sustaining but painful...to keep him at bay and to keep the pain from having him go soft.

There was a BTS video and in the background, someone paused and you could see vaders torso and concept art as well. I mean I didn't "know" it was going to be in there, but you had to figure it would be.

http://furiousfanboys.com/2016/12/rogue-one-behind-scenes-video-confirms-old-rumor-spoilers/

There's more close up pictures of the fan art and torso but I can't find it now. Go figure.

Leia. Wow. Much better than Tarkin but not a lot of movement and expression for her to make it believable.

... REBELS references there were!!! The Ghost! General Syndulla!!!!!!! Supposedly Chopper is in a shot on Yavin! Unbelievable that they care about the universe outside of the films. I mean, Vader has his comic level snark and shit!

>... REBELS references there were!!! The Ghost! General
>Syndulla!!!!!!! Supposedly Chopper is in a shot on Yavin!
>Unbelievable that they care about the universe outside of the
>films. I mean, Vader has his comic level snark and shit!
>
>

there's so much in there for fans to notice.

the last act explains so much about the situation with the rebellion on yavin 4 and hoth, right down to luke's call sign when they took out the death star.

i liked the force awakens, but there was some unnecessary bullshit there. everything in rogue one makes sense, even when i didn't love it.

if you trace what they've done from the prequels through clone wars and vii and rebels, they keep getting better. it's not the same team of course, but overall disney's showing a strong direction with the brand. i'm seriously impressed.

While people gave Awakens shit for being a retread of episode 4, it hit all the beats and gave you the feels.

Here you have your classic Seven Samurai tale of the misfits on a suicide mission but it felt all the characters were instantly thrown into the fire with no introduction or characterization.

Which is a problem. We all know walking in that most of those Samurai are gonna get murked and are 'disposable' to the cause so filmmakers humanize them by letting you know who they are, where they come from, why they fight...I felt that this was sorely missed in this film outside of the two leads (and Mads, but Mads could make you empathize with him playing a walnut). Even Donnie Yen, who swagged the fuck out here, entire background was just 'blind religious monk'. The actors did the best they had to work with and did an admirable job across the board (except Forrest...but all they gave him was 'old general gone crazy in the desert' so obviously hamming it up was the only way to go). There was TONS of fan service, but it doesn't make up for the missed opportunity.

Which sucks because everything else in the movie was solid and I would love to visit this side of Star Wars.

I agree the first half or especially first half hour is confusing jumping back and forth with characters we don't know about yet. I'm anxious to see again tho. Overall this met and exceeded my expectations.

The most fan servicey movie in history, and I am here for all of it. ALL of it.

More stars than the Chicago Bulls sock monkey and Dame plush doll put together.

This was great.

And dammit if Chopper was in it I missed him unless I didnt and didnt even realize it was Chopper.

takes place between episodes 2 and 3.

Spent a billion dollars on a CGi Grand Moff Tarkin they didn't need that also looks bad. Busted out Vader just to give him a Schwarzenegger level dad joke. CGi Leia at the end: also cringeworthy (they can't get the mouths right, can they?). There was another moment or two that made me roll my eyes last night that I forget this morning. I can only imagine how great this movie would've been if they'd relied on the new characters to carry the story...

... because the cast is great, the message is insanely timely, and the action is really terrific. I enjoyed the film overall, as I'm sure most everyone will. There's just a good 15ish minutes of film or more devoted exclusively to nostalgia, and since the main characters here are a little thin (Yen and the robot are the MVPs by a landslide), they could've spent those 15 minutes more wisely on character IMO. If they'd done that, it could've been a perfectly-timed classic. Instead, it'a a mostly-enjoyable entry into this universe. TFA had better characters, this one had better action, both suffered from too much nostalgia pandering. I firmly believe we will see an all-timer classic Star Wars the second we abandon the nostalgia and spend a whole movie exclusively on new characters, new galaxies, new stories, etc.

>I firmly believe we will see an
>all-timer classic Star Wars the second we abandon the
>nostalgia and spend a whole movie exclusively on new
>characters, new galaxies, new stories, etc.

I have hopes for where they go after this first trilogy/group of movies. Many of the side stories in books/comics/cartoons hits those highs.

Both Awakens and Rogue are great films kinda brought down to 'good' because of forced character and plot beats.

R2 and C3PO were a cheap pop, and the two dudes from the Mos Eisley Cantina. Other than that, Tarkin was absolutely necessary. It'd be foolish to think a project of that magnitude wouldn't have his involvement. And Leia needed to end up with those plans.

Vader, isn't a necessity, but come on. That shit was lit.

Other than that, Tarkin was absolutely
>necessary. It'd be foolish to think a project of that
>magnitude wouldn't have his involvement. And Leia needed to
>end up with those plans.

We didn't need to see either of those moments. Jimmy Smits made it clear the plans would end up with Leia-- we didn't need to see her onscreen imo, which undercut what I thought was a beautiful sequence about the sacrifices made by ordinary people in the name of stopping evil.

And Tarkin could've been relegated to cameo duty (or a reference in dialogue, honestly) in order to give Mendelsohn a more fleshed-out villain. You've got a brilliant actor born to play an Empire officer. Give him more to do. And ditch the creepy CGI old man.

>Vader, isn't a necessity, but come on. That shit was lit.

The stuff at the end was fine (mostly, again, because I thought it served nicely to hammer home the point referenced above), but I was still cringing over the terrible joke they gave him in his intro scene. Since when did Vader become Schwarzenegger? Ditch that first scene with Mendelsohn in the lair and make Vader's first appearance when he pops up at the end.

...i loved the movie though ...i can live with the CGI ....i do wish 3PO & R2 were just an easter egg shown in the background for someone to pick up on later

I just know how much more I would've enjoyed it if they'd spent every nostalgia minute on the characters instead.

People think that fan service stuff wasnt needed...Nah bruh, it would be weird if Bail Organa was there and R2 and Threepio werent. Especially when a few hours later in the story we are supposed to see them on the ship receiving the plans. They absolutely had to be there.

I *still* don't know who Bail Organa is, lol. They don't explain it in this movie. It's been forever since I saw the prequels (and don't care to re-live them). So I'm sitting there watching the movie trying to remember who the fuck Jimmy Smits is and why they gave him a music swell and zoom when he walked in.

It's not one of the throwbacks that bothered me, because he's on-screen for *maybe* thirty seconds and I just figure "oh he's one of the Rebel leaders" based on context clues-- but unless you remember everyone from the prequels, you don't give a shit about Jimmy Smits specifically being there, and you think (as I did) that the C3PO/R2D2 one-off joke scene is a pointless nostalgia blast.

He took Leia and Kenobi brought Luke to his uncle

He's a huge part of the story lol

All I need to know about him is "he's a Rebel leader guy," which I got from context. If they'd replaced him with any other actor in the world, playing a different Rebel leader guy, this movie wouldn't have changed at all for me.

And again, worth re-stating, his appearance didn't really bother me at all, because it lasted thirty seconds. It was the longer, more conspicuous stuff that did, as I'd rather have spent that time on the new characters.

It wasn't like R2 or 3PO popping up (which I didn't like) or the two cantina guys reappearing (which I thought was fine): the character was important to the plot. If they hadn't added the music swell and maybe given him an intro line establishing he was the Rebellion's ally on the senate and their main financier, I can't see why anyone would object to him being there. He was important to the cause and he links things be to Leia, who is needed for the end. His importance to the story is independent of his appearance is the prequels.

The complaint isn't about the cameos.
Although a new complaint has arisen about the idea that the cameos HAD to be there.

If he was cut out, do you think ANYONE would be asking, "Wait, why was a key member of the Rebel Alliance there? How'd she get there?!" It's a nice addition for fans but the idea that it was a must for the story is just wrong. Most people watching the movie won't get the reference and will still get the final scene.

The argument you seem to be advancing is "Well, he didn't NEED to be there, so why was he there?" Which is... odd. He wasn't distracting. They just had a swell of music for two seconds during his first appearance.

I think he was at worst, an innocuous inclusion, and at best, a useful character to have in the film. Again, his presence would've have work the exactly the same if the prequels had never existed.

But these comments about how he HAD to be in it are just silly to me. Personally, I don't see a good reason NOT to throw him in there since it's not like they wasted much time with him but he's not a lynchpin of the movie like some people are acting like.

If you'd had any other dude roll up and do his job there, any of the other Rebel council leader folks, I wouldn't have thought, "Hey, where's Bail Organa?" You know what I mean?

They chose to make it him because fans know him, or because there's some one-line reference in Star Wars that I'm forgetting where Leia says that her father specifically gave her the plans (which could be the case, I'm open to that).

Again, I'm fine with his inclusion because it was relatively unobtrusive... but if the movie had relegated them to the shadows and/or casual mentions and let the new characters have more time, I think the movie would've benefitted.

But I think I'm just arguing the same point over and over now, lol. As I said above, I know a lot of people won't agree with my take on this, because they loved the film and they loved the connective tissue. And I know the connective tissue is there specifically for the fans who will pick up on it, and I'm not part of that audience since I'm a casual fan, so I know I'm an outsider here.

i mean where do you draw it?

this movie wouldn't have any meaning, even to casual fans, without a new hope.

we don't really see how truly fucked up the empire is anywhere in this movie, or why the rebellion might be better, or any jedi at all.

but that subtext from the rest of the franchise is still there and why it resonates.

it's also why we don't get as much backstory for the rest of the gang. 1) just pointing out that someone's a veteran of the clone wars or faithless temple guardian or an imperial defector carries a lot of weight with much of the audience, because we've seen those stories through other media and

2) (more importantly) star wars movies are at their worst when they try to do too much with exposition. i'm glad they didn't try.

>i mean where do you draw it?
>this movie wouldn't have any meaning, even to casual fans,
>without a new hope.
>
>we don't really see how truly fucked up the empire is anywhere
>in this movie, or why the rebellion might be better, or any
>jedi at all.
>
>but that subtext from the rest of the franchise is still there
>and why it resonates.

The Empire is pretty much established as bad in the first scene of the movie when the family is scared of them arriving, the mom is killed and the kid hunted. And if that's not enough, they blow up an entire city (including their own soldiers) as a test drive of their new weapon. Vader nearly chokes a dude to death for asking for his job back. I don't think a newbie to the franchise would question whether the Empire is bad.

The Rebellion is definitely shown as a murkier group of good guys in this one but if you never saw any Star Wars film; I think the basic gist of the film would play. The Death Star is bad; we need to get the plans to destroy it.
The reason it would fall flat is the same reason it fell a little flat for people who knew the movies - the main characters were poorly developed.


>it's also why we don't get as much backstory for the rest of
>the gang. 1) just pointing out that someone's a veteran of the
>clone wars or faithless temple guardian or an imperial
>defector carries a lot of weight with much of the audience,
>because we've seen those stories through other media and

A) The problem with the gang isn't the lack of backstory so much as it is that it took them too many scenes to get the gang together. I agree we don't need much backstory but we got two fairly useless scenes of Riz Ahmed meeting Saw and the true telling monster. There's little reason why we couldn't have just met him in the jail cell.

B) The issue is when people say: "You know, they could have rewritten it and done without Saw Gerrerra's part" and fans go "Know you HAVE to have that."
You don't. At all. That's when you're shaping the film to fit fan service rather than telling the best story. And in that case, it's fan service that wasn't even in the movies so it's not even connecting those dots.

The main issue is the main characters. Galen, Jyn, Cassian, and even Krennic are pretty poorly drawn. There's not much to them or their stories.
This is where people thought time could have been better spent than lengthy Tarkin/Krennic talks* or having Saw sic the monster on Riz.
*or make these talks have more motivation for Krennic's approach to things.

Personally, I think you could even combine the Cassian and Jyn characters altogether.

which, again, i think is part of what they learned from the prequels, when they tried to lean too heavily on anakin's destiny.

all that really matters about any of the main characters of the alliance is that they've decided that the rebellion is central to their identity, even those who come late to the game like jyn or riz. their stories and feelings and agency stop mattering when they get caught up in the war, and even when they break out of the chain of command, they're still loyal to the cause. even the force sensitives are broken and ultimately fodder.

the saw/riz stuff is there because they're showing how dysfunctional and desperate and disparate the rebellion has become on the eve of a new hope. if the movie needed anything, it was more insanity from saw.

both of those seem pretty real to me given what's happening with rebellions and terror cells in the world right now.

and maybe you feel like you can just combine the two characters that get the most screen time because everyone's disposable at this point in the war. the only difference between the main characters and the other bodies is they're the locus of the connections to the death star. what are some more scenes going to matter there? what more do we need to know about them that would make it a better movie.

especially in a context where there will be plenty of opportunities for disney to fill in the gaps and flesh out the characters without fucking up the tone of their war movie.

and i say that as someone who doesn't think any of the tarkin stuff (and most of the krennick stuff) was necessary.

> their stories and feelings and agency
>stop mattering when they get caught up in the war

I couldn't disagree with this more. And I don't think the filmmakers agree either since they showed: Donnie maintaining his faith in the force, the other guy being inspired by it, the "Hope" lines, Cassian's speech, and Jyn's "I'M JYN ERSO!" moment. The latter two fell flat IMO because there wasn't enough supporting them through the movie. Cassian was most certainly supposed to have an arc and I thought it flopped hard.

Having leads with competently told arcs and developed characters is crucial to every film, even the nihilistic ones.


>the saw/riz stuff is there because they're showing how
>dysfunctional and desperate and disparate the rebellion has
>become on the eve of a new hope. if the movie needed anything,
>it was more insanity from saw.

If we don't need to establish more about our characters, we certainly don't need to establish more about the Rebellion itself. Especially when a) nobody in the rest of the movie acts desperately like Saw, b) this element doesn't really affect any other moments save maybe the bickering council scenes but those don't need more time with Saw to establish their dysfunction, and c) we already know how it ends for the Rebellion - if there's one element we don't really need to spend time on, it's the state of the Rebellion IMO.


>and maybe you feel like you can just combine the two
>characters that get the most screen time because everyone's
>disposable at this point in the war. the only difference
>between the main characters and the other bodies is they're
>the locus of the connections to the death star. what are some
>more scenes going to matter there? what more do we need to
>know about them that would make it a better movie.

No, it was mostly because Cassian was an empty character and Jyn's story could have been improved with the couple good elements that he had.

area of the Rebellion. The same way they showed Cassian kill that guy and do things the "good guys" in this universe are used to being portrayed. That's why it's important.

Grey area on both sides is a huge theme throughout the new canon.

You need to stay consistent but it's not a priority. 20 minutes in the first act to keep up the grey area motif you've got going in cartoons and books isn't worth it to me at all, nevermind when you're clogging up the first act and giving your main leads short shrift because of it.

You clearly are tuned in to the canon and just care about that. We disagree.

Like they really thought people would go "oh shit!" for his useless 2 second cameo.

The Ben/Mads relationship should have been more of a focus. ESPECIALLY since so much of Jin's motivation depends on it, the way the council responds to her report, and it's Mendelsohn's blind spot.

I feel like Mads should have shot his wife to prove his loyalty (the wife shows up to force his hand; get him on the ship/in a position to sabotage it.)

Just show Tarkin in reflection in the window in the one or two scenes you need him in.

The only reason to really show him so much is to grease the wheels for the Leia moment. (Although I thought that would have been seeing R2D2 and C3PO's race to the escape pod.)

EDIT: What they had in there was good enough but 100% agree that nostalgia moments stole from the characters.

> but I was still cringing over the terrible joke they
>gave him in his intro scene. Since when did Vader become
>Schwarzenegger? Ditch that first scene with Mendelsohn in the
>lair and make Vader's first appearance when he pops up at the
>end.
>

I laughed and actually dug it. I whispered to my son right after that scene that it tied in Anakins snarkiness from the prequels in and actually kind of made sense because vader did have a couple other snarky lines in the OT.

>but I was still cringing over the terrible joke they
>gave him in his intro scene. Since when did Vader become
>Schwarzenegger? Ditch that first scene with Mendelsohn in the
>lair and make Vader's first appearance when he pops up at the
>end.

I actually felt bad for him that he had to get out of that giant tub and assemble his body for a five minute meeting with some middle manager. I'm with you now though - if they left his appearance until then end, I'd have liked that.

Including some of those characters was a necessity. Jimmy Smits/Bail Organa financed the rebellion (and it's not like he had a lot to do in Ep. 2 & 3). The Moff Tarkin stuff only sucked because the CGI was bad (I do agree they could have reduced the "role"). "Leia" was on the screens for maybe two seconds, and I thought her sole line fit perfectly with the theme of the movie. The only thing that didn't work was the R2/C3PO cameo, but I'm willing to cut that a little slack because they've always said that those two characters are going to be the only constants. The fact they were in the movie wasn't bad, but it could have been done in a way where it didn't seem stapled on after the fact.

But the overall point is that ***all*** of these Stars Wars supplementary stories that they currently have planned are going to have "fan service" to some degree, because they all relate to the stories that are already the cornerstones of the entire universe. I mean, the next three of these are going to be Han Solo, Boba Fett, and Yoda origin stories. I imagine there will come a time where they will be able to tell entirely new stories with all new characters in these films (if nothing else, after the third trilogy is over), but to expect these films to exclude the past Star Wars history is going to be an exercise is futility. As long as the cameos are done well, I don't care.

Even though showing the financier of the rebellion is a great example of something that's NOT a necessity, the issue as I understand and agree with it is that too much of the film focuses on/is driven by fan service rather than relying on the new characters.

For instance, Krennic and Galen was a more important relationship than Krennic vs. Tarkin. It seems like a miscue to rob from the former to pay fan service to the latter.

I understand that there were old characters in this movie that I didn't recognize-- that's the definition of unobtrusive fan service. I can dig that. But spending time on old characters to the detriment of the development of new characters? Not good.

>For instance, Krennic and Galen was a more important
>relationship than Krennic vs. Tarkin. It seems like a miscue
>to robbing from the former to pay fan service to the latter.

>For instance, Krennic and Galen was a more important
>relationship than Krennic vs. Tarkin. It seems like a miscue
>to rob from the former to pay fan service to the latter.

>Even though showing the financier of the rebellion is a great
>example of something that's NOT a necessity, the issue as I
>understand and agree with it is that too much of the film
>focuses on/is driven by fan service rather than relying on the
>new characters.

I didn't think having Bail in it had anything to do with the financier part, but rather it had to tie into ANH and he is the link to Leia and it had to be there as to exactly why and how the plans were going to get to her.

Tarkin though....that CGI was awful. I like the reflection. Too bad they couldn't have done that more, or more quick glances of him. Too much screen time. It just looked like a Final Fantasy character dropped into the movie.

Again, the cameos aren't the issue but the idea that it HAD to be there is kind of silly to me. I think most people didn't even connect him to Leia and it's not like there needed to be a huge explanation as to why she was there. A key member of the Rebellion shows up at a battle to get a key piece of evidence that could change the course of the war. Adding, "Because her dad sent her." isn't necessary.

I'm with anyone that thinks the first half of the movie was haphazard and roughshod but the second half was a minor masterwork of a genre/war film. I didn't mind Tarkin like some others did, but I think a lot of time was wasted not focusing on this heist specifically.


The throwbacks to previous stuff weren't as blatant but they were still everywhere; it seemed like that whole first hour was just building up to Jyn meeting her mentor and watching someone give a holographic message that gives her a purpose (I also find it bizarre that the hologram was directed right at her rather than to a general audience, since both Jyn and her father presume the other mught be dead, it just felt sloppy) the same as Luke and Obi Wan. Then there were all the homage shots during the dogfight (far less egregious but still there).


I didn't realize going into this movie that there would be so much exposition for why they were going on the heist that, in exploring, failed to explore why any of these characters were all that interesting. Faux Solo was a total waste of time and didn't work for me as either a romantic lead nor an access point to the rebellion for Jyn, he was just an accent, soft body and a beard. I never learned the names of the two coolest characters in the film, The Asian Guys. Somehow the primary villain became a sidekick in almost every scene he was in when he was played by an all-time scene stealer.


Plus I saw someone else say something about Vader felt off in his initial scene; his voice was a little too light, he spoke a little too much and I really don't remember him being a joker in THAT way.


Like I said at the jump, I was on the edge of my seat from the moment they stole that shipping freighter from the rebel base but I wish the hour and change I'd spent in the theater before that had built up the stakes of what was to come because I brought all my own hopes and dreams to that; my girlfriend thought it was a decent spectacle but fell asleep for about 15 minutes while they were all back at the rebel base. Which, to that point - I KNEW I recognized the dude with the woman, but I could have never told you why I did, and I only connected that conversation to Leia through Obi-Wan and the Clone Wars (as in the movies, not the TV show).


It's kind of impressive how often people are defending weird things about this pretty fun movie with "other media will/has answered this" honestly. I think Star Wars is fucking cool but I'm not going to read any books, watch any comics or animated shows about it. I just want to go watch the movies, and if I last saw "Bail Organa" in 2005 I'm likely not gonna remember exactly that that's him, especially in a franchise that's so well cast the same actor plays Palpatine 25 years apart, modern directors can't help but use beautiful cutting edge CGI to bring original actors into the present day untouched by age and I can't tell that they didn't pull the same trick with the Rebel leader woman that they did with Palpatine.


~~~~~~~~~
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http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
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>It's kind of impressive how often people are defending weird
>things about this pretty fun movie with "other media will/has
>answered this" honestly. I think Star Wars is fucking cool but
>I'm not going to read any books, watch any comics or animated
>shows about it. I just want to go watch the movies, and if I
>last saw "Bail Organa" in 2005 I'm likely not gonna remember
>exactly that that's him

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills for all of the people telling me that I'm wrong for feeling this way.

I wonder if that was added in the reshoot and in the original movie, she got mowed down by the tie fighter that we saw in the trailer.

But I basically spent the entire postscript with my fingers crossed that they weren't going to have Jyn kiss Cassian.

And without going through every major nostalgia scene (since I'm on my phone), I think they could have easily pared down all of it-- especially the GMT stuff. Reduce to cameos, try to make those cameos as unforced as possible.

And while I understand from a money perspective why Disney thinks all of these films need to be nostalgia trips, they're fucking Star Wars-- they could make wholly original films that are only tied to the franchise with the Empire vs Rebellion framework and they'd make a billion dollars still. This movie, despite the Death Star framework, still felt mostly original, which is why I mostly enjoyed it-- and why those nostalgia trips were so distracting for me.

TFA had better
>characters, this one had better action, both suffered from too
>much nostalgia pandering. I firmly believe we will see an
>all-timer classic Star Wars the second we abandon the
>nostalgia and spend a whole movie exclusively on new
>characters, new galaxies, new stories, etc.

I said to my brother last night as we left "man they're really close to making something better than Empire..."

i was shocked at how much they did to make this movie for hardcore SW fans like myself. If I had bought this as a book in the old EU, I would have been thrilled.

in the movie itself, i was geeked and completely uncritical. for God's sake, I had to look up whether Peter Cushing was dead or not after the movie. that says nothing about the quality of the effects and everything about a guy who saw Phantom Menace 5 times the weekend it came out and loved it each time.

this morning, i can totally see how tarkin and leia could alienate non super fans. leia is whatever, because she's in the movie for one word, but Tarkin was a major character who got no development within the confines of the movie itself. i don't think anyone is going to complain about the vader scenes, but he gets no development either and has even less of a reason to be there.

I think that's a totally understandable response-- to both love the fan service and acknowledge that it's unnecessary and/or could alienate non-diehards. I didn't love it, but I can totally see why the big-time fans were geeked over the throwbacks.

And HAD to be a big part of the story.

>Star Wars the second we abandon the nostalgia and spend a whole movie exclusively on new characters, new galaxies, new stories, etc.

You can't get here till they flesh everything out as unlike Marvel or DC where storylines are different per graphic novel, comic, cartoon, movie, tv show. The beauty of what Star Wars is doing and making one storyline throughout all the mediums the stories are told is the beautiful continuity. We won't be able to get to the point where brand new characters can exist on their own untill they explore the rest of the characters lives and importance. Will they explore ALL old classic characters...nah I think Solo and Ben make the most sense. I can see Yoda only being done in a cartoon, comic or book. After Episode 9 I think is when we either see a new saga or we start following a new family. From the way they are setting it up and hinting things, I think that family is the Kenobi's. I hope it is.

As far as Krennic and Tarkin vs Krennic and Erso. Yeah the latter relationship was important but not as important as the one with Tarkin. Especially when this movie leads up to minutes before Episode 4. They had to do it this way. Krennic was a crazy fuck going for Tarkin's position. THAT is way more interesting. Those guys beefing in Catalyst is far more interesting. Galen's story is dope too don't get me wrong but as far as "grey" area type of stories from new characters on the big screen, i would rather see the characters from Lost Stars. I think that would be amazing to see. They could market it to all of us plus all those Twilight fans LOL

casual Star Wars fans who say that Tarkin wasn't necessary to a story about the Death Star....

...I don't think anyone would complain about him being in there. And I say that as someone who was perfectly okay with his appearance in this film.

I think the above two factors did lead me to feel that they should have cut down his screen time. Or, if not, just gone ahead and cast a different actor to play Tarkin and left the screen time the same. Star Wars heads would have understood.

as a minority of people are making it out to be. I think they couldn't have made a better depiction of how he was animated being that the movie itself looked really GOOD as far as cinematography goes...it was gritty, unlike the prequels which was overdone with too much environmental CGI..and too clean whereas a Tarkin like character would stand out as probably the most quality piece in a movie like the prequels.....but Rogue One just "looked" too different for that character to blend in as well as we would like. And when he is on screen for that extended time, the contrasts show.



And then some say that they should have had the dude that played Tarkin from Ep. 3. (i forget the actor's name)

But...Im on the train where i believe Tarkin HAD to be there.

Though I still wanted more time spent developing Mendelsohn's character. If they could've done that alongside a human GMT, I'm sure I'd have been more fine with it.

It seems to me that the communication breakdown here is:

Star Wars fans loved seeing the established characters who helped connect the dots of the overall story; didn't have problem with new characters' development.

Casual moviegoers didn't need to see overall universe's dots connected; were disappointed with new character development and would have rather spent the time on that.

Fans loved finally seeing a live action Saw Gerrera. To moviegoers, he was little more than a time consuming plot device.

Thought he worked fine in the film and understood the importance of his presence; the end result of the Rebellion compromising its morals to fight the Empire.

Did I care about him as much as the six others? No. But I wasn't bothered by him being there.

I actually really enjoyed being reminded that he was, once upon a time, actually scary. Maybe because it's a far away galaxy and long ago and I have a terrible imagination, but the growing threat of planet-destroying weapons is always a little bit too abstract violence for me to buy into the good/evil division they work on. So having Darth Vader kind of gleefully destroy and terrify a bunch of helmeted Alliance doofuses was actually worth something to me in terms of narrative. And it was killing just for fun too.

But that "choke on your aspirations" joke was fucking rough, made worse by the double pun. Going Full Briscoe is grizzled seen-it-all detectives just trying to make it through the day, not timeless and iconic space villains.

Mostly because, thematically, having the average joe workers working together to thwart unstoppable evil is the point of the film, and if I'm being honest, I found that sequence rather moving.

I'm just mad about the dad joke, lol. Didn't stop my overall enjoyment of the film, just a moment where I looked at the sky and shouted, "REALLY?"

This felt very real-world for the most part, which I'm fine with for one flick as long as the franchise goes back to the old vibe of being like an ancient fairytale.




*Spoiler*






One exception: The whole scene at Vader's Castle felt super fantasy to me and truthfully I think this film nailed the essence of Darth Vader so much better than almost anything else in SW ever did. This was the menacing former-human machine monster you could imagine people in a galaxy far away having nightmares of.

Anyone know? Did they amp up K's jokes? Would love to know what changed.

that didn't make the movie.

most notably Jyn's "That's what rebels do, I rebel!" line and the tie fighter sneaking up on her at the platform also didn't happen.

Dude goes ham at the end, but it totally felt believable.

The CGI was off, but Talking was crucial.

It's a good war movie hiding inside of a star wars film.

I mean when Cassian talks about having to see it through so his darker deeds have some meaning it sold the whole movie for me, warts and all.

.

He somehow convinced an imperial pilot to defect and share information with the rebels. Saw Gerrera was basically a hardened terrorist but his face lit up at the mention of Galen, whose daughter he raised. Jyn herself went from just working with the rebels for her freedom and wanting to be out, to leading the cause after seeing a video of her father.

Instead, his character was merely a placeholder "inspirational guy." Mads is brilliant in everything and does some fine work here with what he has, but man, I'd have loved to have seen more of him.

Empire
New Hope/Rogue One.

This shit is really good, and has a top 3 Star Wars battle in it.
Some of the fan service stuff was meh...but I loved the scope and weight of the flick. really makes the SW universe feel more lived in and "dirtier". MILES better than The Force Awakens.

Also, this is the most fucked up/evil the Empire has looked in any star wars flick. Them dudes were COLD AF in this movie

Liked all the new characters. Action was dope. Final 45 to 1 hour was non-stop fiyah.

Would I have liked there to be little more character development on the front end? Sure. I'm guessing some of that was left on the cutting room floor and never filmed. Only part it stood out was when Base called Jyn "little sister" when it seemed like they barely interacted. Otherwise, the story still moved well.

And like I said about, I was fine with most of the fan service. A little less Moff Tarkin would have been fine, and R2 and C3PO stuck out, but didn't ruin anything. It might have really ill if the first time they showed Vader was having him go ham on the rebel soldiers, but I liked the earlier scene with him and Mendelson. Anyone complaining about two seconds of Leia is being weird.

Except for the dudes from the cantina...THAT'S fan service - having those dudes be on a completely different planet days before their appearance on Tantooine in ANH, and they just happen to be there on Jeddah.

R2 and C3PO needed to be there, or else how would they have been on the ship with Leia 5 minutes after Rogue One is over? Leia NEEDED to be there. In ANH she has the plans that she just got from the rebels who stole them - Rogue One is a movie about stealing those plans. Tarkin NEEDED to be there. In ANH he is in command of the Death Star. So he needed to be in place there since this is the same timeline. The X-Wing pilots needed to be there too, since they are part of the rebel fleet at that time and this was an all out attack with the entire rebel fleet.

I will say this - this wasn't a film for casual SW fans. That seems like a specific decision that was made. It's definitely not for kids the same way all the saga films are, and I would imagine that it is confusing for someone who just watches the main films and doesn't watch the TV shows or read comics. It's a bold move - because that is definitely gonna hurt it in the box office compared to The Force Awakens or the Marvel movies. BUT I think it makes for a better film.

I think it will age well. This is the first time that comparisons to Empire Strike Back seem valid. ESB definitely didn't have as much mainstream appeal as ANH when it dropped. I remember as a little kid not liking it as much because it didn't end with the good guys "winning" or a big space battle like ANH. But by the time I was a teenage ESB was clearly my favorite.

>Except for the dudes from the cantina...THAT'S fan service -
>having those dudes be on a completely different planet days
>before their appearance on Tantooine in ANH, and they just
>happen to be there on Jeddah.
>
>R2 and C3PO needed to be there, or else how would they have
>been on the ship with Leia 5 minutes after Rogue One is over?
>Leia NEEDED to be there. In ANH she has the plans that she
>just got from the rebels who stole them - Rogue One is a movie
>about stealing those plans. Tarkin NEEDED to be there. In ANH
>he is in command of the Death Star. So he needed to be in
>place there since this is the same timeline. The X-Wing pilots
>needed to be there too, since they are part of the rebel fleet
>at that time and this was an all out attack with the entire
>rebel fleet.
>
>I will say this - this wasn't a film for casual SW fans. That
>seems like a specific decision that was made. It's definitely
>not for kids the same way all the saga films are, and I would
>imagine that it is confusing for someone who just watches the
>main films and doesn't watch the TV shows or read comics. It's
>a bold move - because that is definitely gonna hurt it in the
>box office compared to The Force Awakens or the Marvel movies.
>BUT I think it makes for a better film.
>
>I think it will age well. This is the first time that
>comparisons to Empire Strike Back seem valid. ESB definitely
>didn't have as much mainstream appeal as ANH when it dropped.
>I remember as a little kid not liking it as much because it
>didn't end with the good guys "winning" or a big space battle
>like ANH. But by the time I was a teenage ESB was clearly my
>favorite.
>
>

I said the same thing to my son. Casual fans won't appreciate a lot of it, or even sometimes understand all of it but I think the 3rd act pulls it all together enough that anyone could enjoy, but I may not recommend it for someone not a big SW head.

>I will say this - this wasn't a film for casual SW fans. That
>seems like a specific decision that was made. It's definitely
>not for kids the same way all the saga films are, and I would
>imagine that it is confusing for someone who just watches the
>main films and doesn't watch the TV shows or read comics. It's
>a bold move - because that is definitely gonna hurt it in the
>box office compared to The Force Awakens or the Marvel movies.
>BUT I think it makes for a better film.

>I will say this - this wasn't a film for casual SW fans. That
>seems like a specific decision that was made. It's definitely
>not for kids the same way all the saga films are, and I would
>imagine that it is confusing for someone who just watches the
>main films and doesn't watch the TV shows or read comics.

This'll be my last comment on this, because I'm getting killed on social media for voicing this gripe about a film I overall enjoyed, but if decisions were made deliberately to please the fans who'll identify the connective tissue that will undoubtedly confuse those who aren't as familiar with the material... doesn't that make it fan service?

Fan service doesn't have to mean it's nonsensical-- I didn't mean to imply that the events of the film don't make sense. They've clearly been meticulously researched. It just means that it's exclusively for big fans, and those who aren't will feel left out in the cold on these things, wondering why we need to care about seeing these moments, etc. If the whole movie was made placing diehard SW fans over the casual ones... doesn't that make most of the movie fan service by design? lol

I don't think fan service has to be a dirty word, fwiw. Lord knows some of the Marvel films I enjoy are chock full of fan service (though even those have their issues with getting away from main plotlines in order to address things in past or future films... but I digress).

Anyhow. I'm genuinely glad people love the movie passionately, as there's so much I really liked about the movie. I'm mad I've spent this much time talking about the thing that I think holds the film back from greatness for casual fans, when there's still a lot of good in the flick that deserves discussion and praise, and I imagine much of it will improve with time. (Maybe not the CGI Tarkin, tho.)

In the saga films they make decisions to appeal to as wide of an audience as possible. They'll add a character that kids will love. They will shy away from showing direct violence. They'll also try to keep the plot simple and easy to follow.

With this movie, and the new spin off films in general, I think they made the decision to NOT try to appeal to everyone.

I guess it all depends on your definition of fan service. When I hear fan service I think of characters or elements added that don't even fit the flow of the film, but are added because fans will like it.

I think in this film, there are certain parts they specifically didn't simplify, even though they knew most casual fans wouldn't get it. Were they successful? I don't know. But I do think they sacrificed some box office numbers to make would would end up being considered a "better" movie in the long term.

he just defined what was. Forcing the Cantina guys in there where their reason being in that entire diff planet doesn't make much sense. Including characters crucial to the story that this movie directly leads into is NOT fan service. You seem to just want to stick to that argument at this point.

1. I liked the movie.
2. I don't find anything wrong with fans liking the stuff that's clearly in there specifically for fans.
3. I also don't find anything wrong with being critical of a small element that bothered me as a casual Star Wars fan who didn't understand a lot of the shit you all did about all of that connective tissue, and as a result would've preferred more focus on the character to whom I'd been introduced on the film.

You keep acting like there's a right or wrong answer to my complaint. There isn't. Those bits worked for you and many others. They didn't for me, SoulHonky, and a smaller number of others. All opinion. All fine.

Some of the nit picking is petty so far.

The ending happened minutes before A New Hope
Wasn't fan service at all it was very necessary

Han's in TFA. The movie has a few issues but I really enjoyed it. First act is a bit choppy and doesn't do enough to establish her or Forest Whitaker's characters but it makes up for it after that. The usage of the first trilogy's character felt appropriate but it's a shame they looked like PS4 characters. They would've been better off making Tarkin a hologram and just shooting Leia from behind. I do want to see this again though which is exceedingly rare for me these days.

build-up. It was his SON killing him, it had been foreshadowed earlier when Snoke said he'd have to face his father, and you could see it coming when Han went out on that bridge. But when I first watched TFA I still thought there was a chance that Kylo would do the right thing. Plus we talking about HAN SOLO - the dude we grew up watching and wanting to be, not new characters who we just met.
However, Han's death didn't really do anything for the plot besides move Kylo Ren further to the dark side. He didn't sacrifice himself to save his friends. I do think that him dying was a final reconciliation with Leia though - before he left she told him to bring back their son, and he died for her trying to do just that.

The deaths in Rogue One were different though - they actually had a meaning of sacrifice. It seemed like each character died RIGHT after they did something needed to get the mission completed. Saw Gerrera died right after convincing Jyn to go forward on the mission with the rebels. Galen Erso died right after showing Cassian and the rest of the rebels who he really was, bringing them together for the cause. K-2SO died sacrificing himself to let Jyn and Cassian escape to get the plans. Bodhi Rook died RIGHT after getting the message out to the rebel fleet that they needed to get the shield down to transmit the plans. Chirrut and Baze died RIGHT after hitting the switch to boost the signal for the transmission of the plans. Then Jyn and Cassian died right after they successfully transmitted the plans.

So it's not that the Rogue One deaths meant "more" or "less" than Han's death, but they were handled in a different way, and RO did a GREAT job of making us feel for the deaths of characters we had just met while TFA didn't have to do this because Han was a character we grew up loving.

there were audible gasps in the theater whenever vader popped up.

I was engaged the whole time

http://www.avclub.com/review/rogue-one-adventure-star-wars-dark-side-247345

Rogue One is an adventure to Star Wars’ dark side
By Ignatiy Vishnevetsky

Grade: B
Rogue One: A Star Wars Story

Rogue One, a new standalone Star Wars film that ends around the point where the original movie began, doesn’t exactly subvert the light-and-dark mythos of that nearly 40-year-old multimedia franchise, but it does find the fatalism buried in its space-opera heroics. It has undeniable weaknesses: an underwritten protagonist, a generic villain, a shortage of interesting personalities. (No knock against the large cast, which is mostly very good, but underused.) But in many other respects, it is a better film than last year’s Star Wars: The Force Awakens: leaner, darker, with a distinct visual style and an actual ending that feels like a denial of blockbuster expectations simply because it shows basic narrative integrity. Returning to the movie influences and more limited color palette of A New Hope, director Gareth Edwards (Godzilla) has created the rare Star Wars property that can be appreciated as a film. And it is about as violent and downbeat as Star Wars gets on the big screen—more downbeat than The Empire Strikes Back, in fact.

The irony is that it is also so slavish to George Lucas’ initial conception of the series that it could almost be called an official fan film, dealing as it does with the backstory of a minor plot point from A New Hope: the Rebel Alliance’s theft of the plans for the Galactic Empire’s Death Star super-weapon. This dwarf-planet-size orb of gray metallic death has been destroyed twice in the Star Wars movies—three times if you count The Force Awakens’ Starkiller Base, which is just like the Death Star, only much bigger and more boring. Yet Star Wars has resisted using this potent image of looming malevolence as a metaphor. This is part of what has made the films so indelible, but it is also their major limiting factor: The good guys represent good, the bad guys represent evil. Rogue One doesn’t rectify this. What it does is recognize that the original Star Wars was a work of pastiche. In lieu of another hero’s journey, it presents a motley crew on a desperate mission.

Felicity Jones plays the lead role of Jyn Erso, a thief who is broken out of a prison camp by the Rebel Alliance and led to believe that she is being sent to rescue her father (Mads Mikkelsen), one of the architects of the Empire’s secret death machine. The truth is that the Alliance wants him killed. The task falls upon the Rebel intelligence officer Cassian Andor (Diego Luna), who travels as Jyn’s handler and pilot, accompanied by K-2SO (Alan Tudyk), a reprogrammed enemy droid who provides droll comic relief. Eventually, they are joined by the Imperial defector Bodhi (Riz Ahmed), the blind monk Chirrut (Donnie Yen), his heavily armed and armored buddy Baze (Jiang Wen), and, later, by a squad of grizzled Rebel soldiers. Rogue One—which takes its title from the call sign of their spacecraft—recognizes these men as lost souls. Some are atoning for misdeeds; others, like Chirrut and Baze, simply have nowhere left to go.

The thing the film has down cold from the start is a look and a sense of mass and scale that seemed to elude J.J. Abrams, the director and co-writer of The Force Awakens: the Death Star eclipsing a sun at noon, a flotilla of small Rebel vessels crashing into the bow of an Imperial Star Destroyer as it pops out of hyperspace, toppled statues lying half-buried in sand. The Star Wars world is large, and the events of Rogue One play out in its cracks and shadows—very literally. Presented without the films’ customary opening crawl or John Williams fanfare, it is Star Wars in a minor key. Its alien landscapes seem more forbidding. The desert planet Jedha resembles Afghanistan crossed with Tibet. Other worlds bring to mind the glacial terrain of Iceland or the island battlegrounds of the Pacific theater of World War II.

On the jungle moon called Yavin 4—the home base of the Rebels, first seen in A New Hope—there are massive ancient step pyramids in a Mesoamerican style. One can’t help but wonder: Where did these people go? Some hubbub was made of the fact that The Force Awakens was shot on film like the original three movies. But Rogue One, shot digitally (albeit with vintage Ultra Panavision lenses) by cinematographer Greig Fraser (Zero Dark Thirty, Killing Them Softly), has a more consistent and well-developed sense of texture. Narratively, it is more of a mixed bag. The film underwent extensive reshoots, and based on some mismatched lighting and the absence of particular lines of dialogue heard in its early trailers, one can surmise that these were focused on making Jones’ heroine more relatable. As it stands, she seems to have no motivation: a hard-edged loner one moment, a Rebel idealist the next. One might chalk it up to witnessing a test firing of the Death Star firsthand (an impressive sequence), but the movie doesn’t.

Despite its length, Rogue One is faster-paced and more straightforward than any Star Wars film since the original trilogy—which, admittedly, isn’t saying much. Adding members and eventually shifting focus to the schematics of the Death Star, Jyn and Cassian’s team is pursued by Director Krennic (Ben Mendelsohn), a careerist Imperial who answers to Darth Vader (voiced, as always, by James Earl Jones) and to A New Hope’s Grand Moff Tarkin; the latter is portrayed by an off-putting and stiff CGI model of Peter Cushing that gets far too much screen time and is destined to become a standard example for discussions of the uncanny valley in special effects. It’s one of only a few missteps in a film that is otherwise very good about relating its effects to an illusion of reality. Framing two differently sized objects together to establish scale is such a basic and effective filmmaking tool, and yet so few modern effects-driven blockbusters seem to grasp it. Edwards’ Godzilla did, and so does Rogue One.

Krennic’s spotless white uniform and cape present an obvious visual contrast to the film’s murkier choice of heroes, and the fact that Mendelsohn adopts a less refined accent than is customary for villainous Imperial officers suggests a hint of background. But otherwise, Krennic isn’t much of a character. The same could be said of Jyn’s band; they look rugged, but aside from the odd couple pairing of Chirrut and Baze, don’t hold attention. They are secondary to the film’s aura of futility and dirtied idealism. Perhaps something less carefully managed might have had a chance to go “full Peckinpah” (for lack of a better term) with this premise. But within the established Lucasfilm framework of hopeful good and powerful evil, Rogue One finds a place for friendly fire, violence between moderate and extremist anti-Imperialist factions, Rebel corvettes being ordered into kamikaze ramming attacks against Star Destroyers, and characters facing down their own imminent destruction.

The politics of Star Wars have long been cynical: The choice of government in the “galaxy far, far away” comes down to shaky, corruptible republics or space Nazis, and all ideals come from the mythic past. One can take issue with the video-game-esque plotting of Tony Gilroy and Chris Weitz’s script, which was developed from an idea by visual effects supervisor John Knoll; too much of the climax comes down to hitting a series of inconveniently placed switches. But in a series as clean-cut and populist as Star Wars, it takes some guts to suggest that the heroic Rebellion might make people question its goals. The path to A New Hope is littered with bodies, wreckage, and sacrifice.

you could even hear his "voice" as he went by.

.

(no offense, dweebs. yall are good dudes, lol.)

.

minus the characterization, though. hopefully VIII can combine both.

also a little sad about those iconic first trailer moments gone.

- the dogfight in space and over land was just so well done. (loved the rear-view shots when the fighters skimmed over the star destroyers.) even the subtitles of it as a backdrop during the director krennic/jyn encounter on scarif.

- ironically interesting to have vader establish his bacta day spa on the same planet where died a little inside.

- i thought CGI tarkin was great until they went to extreme close ups. i'm surprised they didn't just get the guy who played him at the end of Ep. III to reprise the role, since the look was bang-on.

- small nitpick, but i was hoping they'd only show leia from the rear and not reveal her full-frontal CGI. woulda been more effective IMO.

- "i'm going for it!!!" (c) the black rebel soldier who probably set the cinema record for quickest death. everyone in the theater LOL'd at the whole thing. i feel like edwards pulled a rib there on the strength of the 'cism.

- why did they have to emasculate the AT-AT's? lol. they tore apart like a wet paper bag. x-wings shredding them didn't make much sense arc-wise, given that rebel command sending out snowspeeders in ESB would've knowingly been a downgrade in battle against the walkers. then again, maybe the empire had a lessons-learned meeting and decided to upgrade the walkers' armor by the time ESB rolls around.

very good film overall. will probably see it again during the week as a matinee again.

>- i thought CGI tarkin was great until they went to extreme
>close ups. i'm surprised they didn't just get the guy who
>played him at the end of Ep. III to reprise the role, since
>the look was bang-on.
>
>- small nitpick, but i was hoping they'd only show leia from
>the rear and not reveal her full-frontal CGI. woulda been more
>effective IMO.

should've been his only. establish his presence for canon purposes and relation to Krennic. I thought the move was to film the entire conversation with Tarkin looking through the glass window -- especially in the overhead shot, when you can clearly make out Tarkin's face through the reflection without being taken out of reality by it.

>>- i thought CGI tarkin was great until they went to extreme
>>close ups. i'm surprised they didn't just get the guy who
>>played him at the end of Ep. III to reprise the role, since
>>the look was bang-on.
>>
>>- small nitpick, but i was hoping they'd only show leia from
>>the rear and not reveal her full-frontal CGI. woulda been
>more
>>effective IMO.
>
>should've been his only. establish his presence for canon
>purposes and relation to Krennic. I thought the move was to
>film the entire conversation with Tarkin looking through the
>glass window -- especially in the overhead shot, when you can
>clearly make out Tarkin's face through the reflection without
>being taken out of reality by it.

They were AT-ACTs (All Terrain Armored Cargo Transport). The purpose of the AT-ACTs is cargo transportation (this is why we see one with the entire middle section open.) They were likely there to transport kyber crystals. They aren't nearly as heavily armed as the AT-ATs which are built for the imperial army for battle.


>- why did they have to emasculate the AT-AT's? lol. they tore
>apart like a wet paper bag. x-wings shredding them didn't make
>much sense arc-wise, given that rebel command sending out
>snowspeeders in ESB would've knowingly been a downgrade in
>battle against the walkers. then again, maybe the empire had a
>lessons-learned meeting and decided to upgrade the walkers'
>armor by the time ESB rolls around.

>They were AT-ACTs (All Terrain Armored Cargo Transport). The
>purpose of the AT-ACTs is cargo transportation (this is why we
>see one with the entire middle section open.) They were likely
>there to transport kyber crystals. They aren't nearly as
>heavily armed as the AT-ATs which are built for the imperial
>army for battle.
>

ah, i see. thx for the clarification. i purposely hadn't checked the SW database for anything before seeing the film. just figured if they walk like an AT-AT and talk like an AT-AT, then...

but yeah, makes sense now for the cargo angle. 'cause my first thought was, "why would they deploy AT-AT's solely to fight ground soldiers using guerilla tactics?"

Plus, from what I recall the Snowspeeders were better equipped for the snow. Likely more maneuverable in atmospheric conditions, as the X-Wings were made primarily for space combat. I know the wings being closed gives them better maneuverability. And they needed the X-Wings to escort the transports.

maybe the widest range of expressions I've ever seen his face in a matter of seconds.


dug the voice since the trailers, too.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

He showed every emotion in a few seconds - joy, regret, insanity, pain, etc...

Guess we will see the falling out he had with he Rebellion that Mon Mothma talked about

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/12/saw-gerrera-coming-to-star-wars-rebels/

Movie was very cool. Missed the feel of the OG films like someone mentioned above, but the action was engrossing once it got rolling. Donnie Yen, K, and Baze were all dope. Jyn was fine but she don't have that twinkle in her eye like Rey that made me a believer. Scarif was beautifully done, as was the star destroyer crash scene. Lizard general dude was distracting to me, Saw was wacky, and the whole Jedah city scene had me rapped.

Diego though? Ugh, can't stand the dude at all. He lacks depth and as mentioned previously fails miserably as any kind of romantic lead (which I know wasn't his purpose here, but the lack of chemistry made the beach finale kinda meh).

Deaths of each Rogue One member got me in the feels to a certain extent. Talking was fine by me, kinda wish Leia didn't immediately crack a smile, I mean hella people just died. Vader's last scene was magic but like elsewhere stated that "joke" fell flat as a muthafucka to me.

Overall a fine movie. Visuals were excellent, use of nostalgia hit or miss, acting serviceable though DonnieYen was the only dude I truly cared about. Bring on Ep VIII though, it's gonna be the goods.

I found it hilarious.

He was running a extremist group, he basically had his own version of the Rebellion who had their own intentions and ways of fighting against the Empire (I'm forgetting what they called themselves). Again showing the grey area of good guys/bad guys p

*shrugs*

.

**SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!**




















VADER, killed it literally at the end. UNFUCKWITABLE. FOREVER.

SUPREME LEADER SNOKE = TARKIN REBORN

10 out of 10.

Homies in JEDHA looked like insurgents.
IMPERIAL ISLAND BASE = CHINESE MANUFACTURED ISLANDS REALIZED.

Phenomenal film.

No reason he would be almost 7-8 feet tall in the new movie. They are using practical effects next movie and he has a team of people controlling him. He's gonna be half puppet half cgi. I honestly think the gonna be a simple answer and they will be introducing him as Plageus

http://makingstarwars.net/2016/12/star-wars-episode-viiis-supreme-leader-snoke-master-of-puppets/

TARKIN, looked like a, Young Snoke.
I also think, SNOKE is not that huge in real life. It's all part of the holographic projection to make him all the more intimidating. My theory at least...

not a holocron

I mean "Body Rock" was bad enough.

Darth Stinker in the next?

>I honestly think the gonna be a simple answer and they will be
>introducing him as Plageus

Snoke doesn't resemble a Muun..but he does just an old humanoid

he didn't look bad to me at all.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

it's obviously not going to look exactly like an actual human being. just because you can tell that it's CG doesn't make it 'bad'.

i thought tarkin looked fine.

of his scenes so I was able to check them out on repeat yesterday (of course that video has since been taken down) and they look REALLY good.

it really does remind me of the louie ck bit about cell phones and flying. the further technology advances, the more whiny nitpicky spoiled assholes we become.



>of his scenes so I was able to check them out on repeat
>yesterday (of course that video has since been taken down) and
>they look REALLY good.

>it really does remind me of the louie ck bit about cell
>phones and flying. the further technology advances, the more
>whiny nitpicky spoiled assholes we become.

same again

.

in fact, Tarkin impressed most

Say they'd used the guy from Episode III, I think more people would wonder if they needed all those scenes.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

The CGI character was the most interesting part of those scenes.

Either way, I don't think the issue is CGI, it's that for some the Krennic/Tarkin rivalry felt empty like most of the characterizations/relationships in the film. And this seems like the easiest one to cut in order to spend time beefing up the others.

but then again when I am interested in a movie I dont go reading any material about it and just go into the movie as blind as possible, aside from a trailer or two. Had I known I would have paid attention to him more to see exactly how real he looked. Nope I went in and enjoyed the fuck out of this movie.

i watched TFA again over the weekend, and disney definitely got it right with rogue one. no bumbling, rapid-fire talking with actors basically completing each other's lines.

hopefully the special edition will have the vader "joke" removed. at least we didn't get a "NNNOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooo" though.

lastly, i just need the majority of rebel pilots to stop looking like production assistants and ILM interns.

http://www.avclub.com/article/forest-whitaker-playing-his-rogue-one-character-st-247703

Based on the episode preview they posted, it's starting to make sense. The Rebels crew will run into him on Geonosis. The empire sterilized that entire planet (to keep the Death Star secret) by using some kind of chemical insecticide on the planet that killed them. If Saw was there, that insecticide may be why his lungs are all messed up and he has to use that breathing tube, and it may have messed up his mind.

the good far outweighed the bad in this film. what some of you guys call "fan service" was actually pretty intragal parts of the story. my favorite parts that aren't getting enough mention imo:

- i thought it was brilliant that the explanation for the weakness of the Death Star was that Galen Erso put it there on purpose as basically a backdoor booby trap in retaliation for forcing him to work for them (and killing his wife and separating him from his daughter). i feel like this isn't getting enough love because that's awesome. it cleared up what some people felt was a issue in the first Star Wars that such a huge weapon would be so vulnerable.

- the hammerhead ships that they used to ram the one star destroyer into the other one were stolen by Princess Leia in a Star Wars Rebels episode. also from Rebels is Chopper who makes a quick cameo at the rebel base and the Ghost is in the battle over Scarif and they mentioned Hera's name over the intercom and she's apparently been upgraded to a general. very cool

the CGI Tarkin and Leia didn't bother me at all. both very important characters and fairly essential to the story. not sure how else they could have had them in the film otherwise.

I went in not knowing about Tarken and I legitimately thought they found an actor that looked remarkably like him. It's only after the fact that I notice the standard "too shiny" quality of most CGI. Leia looked fine to me.

I really liked the movie. I liked the story and action much better than TFA. The characters weren't as strong as TFA but given what I knew about the story I wasn't looking to be invested in the characters. The droid was great though. The nostalgia parts didn't really bother me but there were a couple they could have lost. I never rolled my eyes though, which I did a couple times during similar TFA scenes.

but to me so far it looks legit. Only looks weird to me with certain facial expression movements/transitions. But not even really. I cant judge the lighting too much just beacuse I saw it in 3D and 3D is shit and always put the grey dull look to the screen.

Really didn't notice anything off about it either way. I mean Leia did look a little weird but it didn't take me out of it like the prequels did.

And I'm not even sure if that's an issue with the CGI itself, or just the fact that she smiled at all. They just barely escaped in the ship, after watching a TON of their colleagues get killed - on the planet from the Death Star, in space from running into Vader's ship, or killed directly by Vader himself.

That rebel captain specifically just saw his men BRUTALLY slaughtered by Vader, and barely escaped himself, all to get that data card to Leia. So when he asks her "what is it???" dude prolly wants a more specific answer than "hope" with a smile and an orchestra swell.

Besides that smile, I thought they did a very good job on Tarkin and Leia.

Like why you smiling, aint shit happy about that moment

>That rebel captain specifically just saw his men BRUTALLY
>slaughtered by Vader, and barely escaped himself, all to get
>that data card to Leia. So when he asks her "what is it???"
>dude prolly wants a more specific answer than "hope" with a
>smile and an orchestra swell.

Hadn't thought about that. As others have said they went for cheap nostalgia pops too much (Jimmy Smits, C3P0 and R2 are the worst examples)

>Besides that smile, I thought they did a very good job on
>Tarkin and Leia.

After the prequels and revised originals we should be thanking them for any improvement in the CGI department honestly. We also don't give enough credit to how much CGI has improved in general because it's so engrained in everything. Go back and watch the Sopranos scene where they had to CGI the mother's face after she had died irl. That's TV so it's a different ballgame, but at that time I hadn't noticed it and now it's glaring how bad it is. Maybe in 10 years I'll say the same about this movie, but I sincerely didn't notice anything wrong with Tarkin.

-It didn't need to be in 3D. ( I saw it in IMAX 3D. It was distracting. Especially the extreme closeups)

-They never really named the characters ( I knew most of them, but my friend kept asking me "who's this guy again?". I can see how newbies could get lost)

Actually, those pare pretty much my only complaints. I thought Grand Moff Tarkin stuff was awesome. I'm amazed at how well it looked vs CGI faces of years past ( remember how terrible it looked in "Tron Legacy"?)

A lot of the easter eggs were cool too.

And not the individual motivations towards why they wanted to do the mission, but the motivations or feelings towards each other and wanting to have each others back.

- I didn't think there was enough interaction or a moment where Jyn and K2 can really connect where the moment Jyn gives K2 the gun he says she keeps surprising him in a good ways. Or even when K2 says he has her back to go rogue but hides it with the fact that Cassian said he had to (altho a funny bit, I think he actually meant it)

- Baze calling Jyn "Little Sis" was too early, it didnt make sense they didnt have a moment where he would actually call her that.

- Chirrut they couldve shown more how he knew or sensed something special in Jyn, which woudlve enforced his Force sensitivity in the story more

- Saw couldve had a more tender fatherly type moments with Jyn as well

- Bodhi's was developed pretty good, where Galen gave him that confidence that he was someone special. I just wish they showed that conversation that made him defect the Empire. I think that wouldve been enough to show us why he was behind Jyn 100%

I think a lot of these things were probably in the first cut of the movie but were cut out due to time. Which is a shame cause it couldve helped the movie be pretty perfect, but I understand why. If I had to choose between cutting out those things over the action, you really dont have a choice.

The introduction to each character was fine, people complaining about that makes no sense. Its just the stuff in between that develop their relationships and motivations is what is missing.

Nobody said cut the action, it's the best part of the movie.

But, for instance, you could cut Tarkin taking over command of the Death Star, which is only there to give Krennic as reason to go see Darth Vader, who immediately gives control back to Krennic. I see little point to this section besides getting Darth Vader into the movie earlier (and I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the scenes that was added.)

I get that fans are geeked about seeing Darth in his incubator-thingy but I'd have preferred that they spent more time with the actual main characters of this movie instead.

>Nobody said cut the action, it's the best part of the movie.
>
>But, for instance, you could cut Tarkin taking over command of
>the Death Star, which is only there to give Krennic as reason
>to go see Darth Vader, who immediately gives control back to
>Krennic. I see little point to this section besides getting
>Darth Vader into the movie earlier (and I wouldn't be
>surprised if this was one of the scenes that was added.)
>
I don't count this as fan service. It's more interesting than any motivation they could've shown that I said I wish was there. But those reasons for the motivation shown didn't have enough reason's to back it up. This plot of the story give's Krennic those reasons for his motivation. It would be stupid to take it out. They just needed to do the same justification for the Rebels. Calling it "fan service" doesn't make sense at all. Those words are being thrown around recklessly.

>I get that fans are geeked about seeing Darth in his
>incubator-thingy but I'd have preferred that they spent more
>time with the actual main characters of this movie instead.

No. Theres no reason why both couldn't have been shown other than time. II wouldve just made the movie a tad longer to show those motivations better. Which in turn would've developed them. It didnt even feel long to me so I wouldnt have cared.

>I don't count this as fan service. It's more interesting than
>any motivation they could've shown that I said I wish was
>there. But those reasons for the motivation shown didn't have
>enough reason's to back it up. This plot of the story give's
>Krennic those reasons for his motivation. It would be stupid
>to take it out. They just needed to do the same justification
>for the Rebels. Calling it "fan service" doesn't make sense at
>all. Those words are being thrown around recklessly.

I'm not sure how you can say it's more interesting than something you don't know about. There's countless ways they could have handled the first act to flesh out the characters better; it's not like this is a true story.

And I feel like Krennic's motivation was already established without Tarkin taking over for ten seconds or the visit to Darth.


>No. Theres no reason why both couldn't have been shown other
>than time.

Not sure what you're saying no to. The initial point was how something had to be cut for time. I would have preferred they spend the time on showing the motivations of the main characters.

And with that, I'm out.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

This was what I wanted from The Force Awakens. Make me feel like a kid again. Make my jaw drop because of the awesomeness that is Star Wars. AND they did it mostly without any light sabers That's important. Even though you know they get away with the plans from jump, I felt the gravity of the situation. I felt for the characters (even though I couldn't tell you one person's name in the movie). IMHO Episode 8 has some real shit to live up to now. They showed what can really be done with Rogue One. How you can throw some nostalgia in there and still keep it moving. For one of the big deaths I actually put my head down because I was so bummed about it. Well done!

I was really bummed when they bodied that droid. He was killing either every line for the entire movie.

I wish they pulled more on the strings and has Cassian react more to show how close they were

... it has flaws, but to me they are minimal.....

I'm not hating for hating's sake, but I'm also not going to accept "because he was important!!!"

That was, in my opinion at least, an unnecessary detour. Jedha, fine. Met the Asian dudes. But the Saw Gerrera cave and the octopus or whatever? What tangible purpose did that actually serve?

I started to type a bunch of stuff defending him - I love the film and I also loved The Clone Wars series so it was really cool seeing an animated character brought to life.

But when you really break it down, they could have cut Saw completely out of the film. Maybe even cut out Jedha entirely.

The arguments for him (outside of the animated series easter egg) are that he brought the entire Rogue One crew together - he was the lynchpin connecting Jyn, Bodhi, Chirrut and Baze, the rebel alliance leadership, and all his rebel team that made it out of Jedha and joined the rebellion at large. Another argument for him being there is that his death (from the Death Star) could have been an emotional connection to why they needed to destroy the Death Star. If you think about ANH, Tarkin destroyed Alderaan but we didn't have any connection with people on Alderaan besides knowing it was Leia's home planet. In TFA we had no connection with the people who died from Starkiller Bass destroying Hosnian Prime either. So in RO they could have improved on those prior SW scenes by having an emotional connection to Saw who died from the Death Star. BUT he didn't die in any type of sacrifice. He wasn't running trying to make it to the ship, but then fell and died. They way they played it, Saw was ready to die anyways so you didn't really feel anything for him.

So they could have trimmed down the first part of the film by eliminating Saw and just having the rebellion want Jyn to connect with the Bodhi (imperial pilot) directly because of her being Galen's daughter. He could have played the hologram message for her without Saw.

Again, I loved the movie as is. But that's a legitimate critique.

That Jheda ambush might as well have been in Iraq.

fun fact: Jedda is a Saudi Arabian city, gateway to Mecca

who are we rooting for again?

NO: Rebels: al Qaeda/ISIS. Empire: USA

>That Jheda ambush might as well have been in Iraq.
>
>fun fact: Jedda is a Saudi Arabian city, gateway to Mecca
>
>who are we rooting for again?

You are confusing non-symetrical warfare tactics with the people who are using it.

Our colonies certainly used it on the British. Any resistance will uses these tactics on a larger force.

But fuck that "assigning roles form today's society" shit to this film.

The Jedis definitely had different goals than Al Qaeda.

BSG had the same issue - everything in BSG was supposed to draw a parallel between the U.S. and the terrorists - but what was missing in BSG there was an ACTUALLY GENOCIDE OF humans and destruction of the planet like 2 months before. Like a real one - not ideology - or a small attack that could precipitate a larger one, but robots DID murder billions of people and were chasing the remaining people.

So tactics are similar - goals and ideology are different.

And to remind you: We are rooting for the rebels in the movie, and against ISIS in real life.

#0:
Saw Geurra looks too much like Clarence Williams III in Tales From The Hood for me to take seriously.
Link: https://horroraddicts.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/e_tales-from-the-hood_vlcsnap-125513.png


Poorly recorded version on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyYe_ihrXTY

I get the parallels between Saw and Vader - but come on, this wasn't the way to go.


1)The violence is way too clean.
Take for example after the street ambush when the blind guy is sitting on a trooper and another starts to move and is shot in the head. That Stormtrooper's helmet is completely unscathed, it's missing even the level of the the 1977 Star Wars's violence.
Example of a few removed things from Star Wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvbrVFP_f0w#t=1m37s

The violence in Rogue One on one on one fights is very very cartoonish. Vader bifurcates someone and there's no blood at all. People are blasted and there's no smoke, or evidence of being hit, or damage. Just people stop moving. Episode III had more realistic violence.

I'm not expecting Tarantino level of blood - but what we have in Rogue one may be too far in the other direction. On second viewing it detracted from the action.

2)Tarkin is good, Leia not so good.
Tarkin worked for me even the second time. Lei's smile looks bad - but it's so shot I don't care. It seems like happiness in full light is harder to create than brooding in shadows.

3)When blind dude (don't know his name) gets shot it's because there people shooting at him. But his boy can run out and cradle his head for 30 seconds - why didn't he get murked right then?

4)Why didn't K2-SO lock the door to the desk? Also even though he locked the door to the library why didn't he fuck it up in someway to make it harder to get into?

5)Who are the bothans??? They could have fixed that.

6)Cassian is on team Jyn way to early and for no discernible reason. I wish they'd have a little mroe time together to explain it.


Still a good movie with a very satisfying ending and it's nice being in that universe again.

>5)Who are the bothans??? They could have fixed that.
>
the bothans dont come into play until episode VI

cauterize the flesh. They've never had blood from lightsaber wounds. As for GE rest of the violence- I thought this film showed more than usual because you could actually see blast shots on the body when people got hit, usually that isn't shown in SW.

The "many bothans died for this information" line was from Return of the Jedi when they were trying to destroy the second Death Star.


I thought Cassian joining team Jyn was handled well. First he trusts her to let her keep a blaster on Jedha. Then when escaping Jedha when he was pushing back on her story about her father, he said "it's not me you have to convince" because he knows what his orders are from his leadership. When he goes to murk Jyn's father, they kept cutting back to him when he had a clear shot. He was watching what was happening and that Jyn's father tried to give himself up to stop the engineers from being killed (obviously Cassian couldn't hear what they were saying, but they shot it to clearly show he was reacting to what he saw). So between him believing Jyn and seeing what happened, he went against his orders. Then when he went back to the ship and everyone was checking him for going to kill her father, he was CLEARLY uncomfortable. He knew he was wrong to even consider it. Then on Yavin he hears Jyn's inspired speech, showing that she fully cares about the cause and wants to take action. It's only after that point that he joins her and says he wants to help.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/f1/Ponda_arm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20070326183107&path-prefix=nl

>As for GE rest of the violence- I thought this film showed more than usual because you could actually see blast shots on the body when people got hit, usually that isn't shown in SW.

I got the opposite reaction - I thought that people got hit and then fell down lifeless - like in an old western.

I know these are aimed partly at kids - but this was a suicide mission and many many people died - but somehow only B2's death seemed graphic.

I mean B2 bonked a man on the head with enough force to know him out or kill him and all that was missing this sound effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2hA2LytWac

Jyn's escape from the transport was well done - but StickMan X's later fight fight again seemd very cartoonish to me. For the record: I was not expecting it to be Om Bak 3's final fighte level of graphic, but come on.

If all the Star Wars movies are at this level I will see them all in the theatre.

For example:

https://youtu.be/A1BUIiDvl1w?t=4m15s

Most shots don't hit anyone at all. You see people kinda randomly go down. But you don't see any wounds.

In Rogue One there were more actual hits shown, and a LOT of direct fighting. So it just depends on your point of view. Comparing to non-SW films I see what you mean.

particularly the director krennic character and his sycophantic attempts to win the vader's/emperor's approval over tarkin.

After he dies and Cass pulls Jyn away you can see a blaster wound in his chest.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

There were about 100 storm troopers plus the air battle .

No one close fired at him and no air raid is gonna hit you in the chest. But he had a blaster wound. I thought Jyn saw it and was about to go off on the ship.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

...from the X-Wing air raid.

I'm asking how did that cause a blaster wound to the chest? Dude that was right next to him at the time went down and got back up to escape. I'll revisit once blue ray drops but pretty sure you can see the blaster wound for that on cut.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

seen the film three times. not a blaster wound, bro.

the landing platform was metallic.

coulda been hot shrapnel from the explosion. we saw jyn getting blown back by the imperial shuttle's thrust as it took off -- she was hanging from a mangled part of the platform.

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-disk-formats-of-star-wars-rogue-one-spoilers?trk_source=homepage-lede

Though perhaps not in so much detail. LOL!

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." � Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

It's just like now. The USB drive is pretty much standard, but high capacity data isn't. Drive backups come in a variety of flavors, depending on capacities and usage or compatibility.

This is really overthinking this issue, which isn't really an issue.

competition clause.

Rebels that don't give a fuck = COOL

A cool explanation of why the Death Star had such a glaring mistake built into it that made sense = COOLER

the obvious Darth Vader scene that should bring a tear to the eye of every fanboy = COOLEST

One of the most understated things about the movie might just be how it does not feel like a traditional SW film. At first I didn't like it, but given some thought, I actually really enjoy it.

And despite the hate he's received and how little he is in the movie, I think my favorite character is Forrest Whitaker's Saw Gerrera. He's got that Vader breathing, Fett looking, robotic thing going on that just works IMO.

I've heard and read reviews that range from "Best Star Wars movie ever" to "disappointing"... It falls into the category of predictable, which is unfair for a movie we already knew the outcome of. It also does not have the same impact as the main story does to me, and none of the new characters are as intriguing as the new ones introduced in The Force Awakens.

but its right next to it.

I thought it still feels like a Star Wars movie. It wasn't as polished because it couldnt be since it was so close to A New Hope.

But they def did things we have never seen which was really refreshing to see. They took risks but still made it feel like a Star Wars movie IMO.

But I hate sacrificial characters, especially sacrificial black characters. Saw was basically Darth Maul in Phantom Menace: visually interested but completely wasted as a character.


comparing Rogue One to TFA isn't really far considering Force Awakens had to do so much as far as introducing new characters and reintroducing old characters, wash the prequels taste away... Rogue One just had to be good and it is but any big SW fan already knew the story as soon as the film. We knew Jyn would die, we have no clue what's going to happened with Rey, Finn & Kylo

the best character in Rogue One, to me, is the galaxy far far away itself. This film had the best starship battles. It just felt great to be back in that era of Star Wars.

Saw was kinda wasted. As far as the Force Awakens discussion I do see that there was more pressure on The Force Awakens. That said I still felt way more elation walking out of Rogue One. While this movie was a somewhat gritty war movie in the SW universe it felt like more of a Star Wars movie than The Force Awakens to me because there was a sense of awe. I didn't get that in The Force Awakens outside of the opening sequence where you first see Kylo's power.

No need for it to be fleshed out in the movie wouldve made it even longer. If anyone shouldve been fleshed out a tad more would be the characters just to help make their motivations to back each other and call Jyn their little sister make more sense. Saw's role was fine. He took care of Jyn for her parents. Developed her into an elite soldier at an early age. Left her on her own to keep her safe and more importantly even more hidden. Thats all we needed.

Def wouldve been awesome to explore it more and really see their relationship but if we had to choose between him and the "main" characters I choose the main characters.

>Developed her into an elite soldier at an early age.

Up above a bit I was struggling on why Saw needed to even be in this movie at all, but this is it. Him being there gave Jyn some depth in terms of how she would be able to take down stormtroopers with just a baton, and how she was able to lead a team of rebels into an imperial base to complete a mission. Without Saw, everyone would be wondering how this random girl who is the daughter of an engineer was able to be this elite soldier in battle all of a sudden.

If I could change anything about Saw, it would maybe be to not have Forrest Whitaker play him, but more of an unknown actor, and he wouldn't have been as prominent in the trailers. That's likely the reason why people feel he was underused and that he needed more character development. His character in the film did exactly what he needed to do.

Altho I do like the difference of crazy in Rogue one and just before going crazy in Rebels. Im hoping we get to see why he turns into the character we see in Rogue One in this second half of Rebels.

Btw did you get to see the mid season trailer?!?!?

on this season...

LMAO

it's held up and then some. best title since the reboot and getting better with time.

It has held up extremely well.