Sorry for altering the title, I figured I'd put something that gets straight to the subject of the OP.

By Ann Hornaday, Published: May 25

"As deranged manifestos go, the final YouTube video made by suspected Isla Vista, Calif., mass murderer Elliot Rodger was remarkably well-made. Filmed by Rodger in his black BMW, with palm trees in the background and his face bathed in magic-hour key light, the six-minute diatribe — during which he vows revenge on all the women who rejected him and men who were enjoying fun and sex while he was “rotting in loneliness” — might easily have been mistaken for a scene from one of the movies Rodger’s father, Peter Rodger, worked on as a director and cinematographer.

Indeed, as important as it is to understand Rodger’s actions within the context of the mental illness he clearly suffered, it’s just as clear that his delusions were inflated, if not created, by the entertainment industry he grew up in. With his florid rhetoric of self-pity, aggression and awkwardly forced “evil laugh,” Rodger resembled a noxious cross between Christian Bale’s slick sociopath in “American Psycho,” the thwarted womanizer in James Toback’s “The Pick-Up Artist” and every Bond villain in the canon.

As Rodger bemoaned his life of “loneliness, rejection and unfulfilled desire” and arrogantly announced that he would now prove his own status as “the true alpha male,” he unwittingly expressed the toxic double helix of insecurity and entitlement that comprises Hollywood’s DNA. For generations, mass entertainment has been overwhelmingly controlled by white men, whose escapist fantasies so often revolve around vigilantism and sexual wish-fulfillment (often, if not always, featuring a steady through-line of casual misogyny). Rodger’s rampage may be a function of his own profound distress, but it also shows how a sexist movie monoculture can be toxic for women and men alike.

How many students watch outsized frat-boy fantasies like “Neighbors” and feel, as Rodger did, unjustly shut out of college life that should be full of “sex and fun and pleasure”? How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the shlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, “It’s not fair”?

Movies may not reflect reality, but they powerfully condition what we desire, expect and feel we deserve from it. The myths that movies have been selling us become even more palpable at a time when spectators become their own auteurs and stars on YouTube, Instagram and Vine. If our cinematic grammar is one of violence, sexual conquest and macho swagger — thanks to male studio executives who green-light projects according to their own pathetic predilections — no one should be surprised when those impulses take luridly literal form in the culture at large.

Part of what makes cinema so potent is the way even its most outlandish characters and narratives burrow into and fuse with our own stories and identities. When the dominant medium of our age — both as art form and industrial practice — is in the hands of one gender, what may start out as harmless escapist fantasies can, through repetition and amplification, become distortions and dangerous lies.

Every year, San Diego State University researcher Martha Lauzen releases a “Celluloid Ceiling” report in which she delivers distressing statistics regarding the state of women in Hollywood. This year, she found that women made up just 16 percent of directors, writers, producers, cinematographers and editors working on the top 250 movies of 2013; similarly, women accounted for just 15 percent of protagonists in those films.

Even if 51 percent of our movies were made by women, Elliot Rodger still would have been seriously ill. But it’s worth examining who gets to be represented on screen, and how. It makes sense to ask, as cartoonist Alison Bechdel does in her eponymous Bechdel Test, whether a movie features (1) at least two named female characters who (2) talk to each other about (3) something besides a man. And it bears taking a hard look at whether we’re doing more subtle damage to our psyches and society by so drastically limiting our collective imagination. As Rodger himself made so grievously clear, we’re only as strong as the stories we tell ourselves."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/in-a-final-videotaped-message-a-sad-reflection-of-the-sexist-stories-we-so-often-see-on-screen/2014/05/25/dec7e7ea-e40d-11e3-afc6-a1dd9407abcf_story.html

"How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the shlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, “It’s not fair”?"

this shit though ^^ explains way too much about those sadly popular but ridiculously overrated movies


http://gawker.com/seth-rogen-is-not-pleased-with-washington-post-critic-a-1581860784?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow



meanwhile again this is where folks reactions become more hilariously telling than the original article
sacred apatow/rogen cows n shit
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

There are plenty of examples of what she's talking about (Project X, 21 and Over, Todd Phillips films in general).

But Neighbors actually argues that college experience doesn't matter, party animals end up with loser lives, and growing up is an admirable thing. The female in the couple is the one who longs to party just as hard as the male does.

It's a really weird citation. If she wanted to go after Apatow, Funny People would've been the best one to attack.

I heavily doubt that the reaction would be any different than the knee jerk reactions below


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

And by "this," I mean the idea that art can inspire mass killings in any capacity.

There's the "no fucking way does art do this" school of thought.
And there's the "you're insane if you think art doesn't influence children's development" school of thought.

While I'm sure the answer is generally more complex than either school of thought will accept, I think any attempt by armchair psychologists to get to the core of the problem of a mass murderer is generally futile.

There is absolutely, it should be said, an argument to be made for the male domination of Hollywood and its indulgence in male fantasy helping to shape the minds of the young viewers in terms of their expectations and treatment of women. And I think bringing up certain Apatow films can absolutely help make that argument (Funny People and This is 40, in particular, although they're not really aimed at young people, but I find them generally misogynistic and loathsome). And while I don't think that all misogynists are future murderers (clearly), there's obviously nothing wrong with using a now-famous misogynist to discuss publicly the real tragedies of this school of thought.

However, for Apatow to be your sole name-check is strange considering his role as the producer for Bridesmaids and Girls, two of the biggest and most progressive female-driven hits of the last decade in any medium... and to name-check Neighbors as your film solely because it's the film du jour is stranger still, because, well, it makes me think you haven't seen Neighbors. And when crafting an argument like this, using the proper evidence for your thesis is everything. I'm sure Apatow fanbros would have still fought back if different films had been used, just as fans of Project X and Todd Phillips would have done as well. There are disgusting men in the world who will fight back against any argument a woman makes about unfair treatment of women in any regard, and they should all be taken out behind the shed and Old Yellered.

That having been said, I highly doubt at least the posters I know below are responding that way because they fall under the fanbro category. They're usually, if I recall, the hyper-liberal dudes in GD calling the posters with backward-ass thoughts about women assholes. I imagine they just strongly object to the implication Hornaday makes that art can lead to murder.

>would have done as well. There are disgusting men in the world
>who will fight back against any argument a woman makes about
>unfair treatment of women in any regard, and they should all
>be taken out behind the shed and Old Yellered.
>
>That having been said, I highly doubt at least the posters I
>know below are responding that way because they fall under the
>fanbro category. They're usually, if I recall, the
>hyper-liberal dudes in GD calling the posters with
>backward-ass thoughts about women assholes. I imagine they
>just strongly object to the implication Hornaday makes that
>art can lead to murder.

shot them now (c) daffy


admittedly that was before Reg

you get one
shoot the rest Longo
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

no rational person can defend that article

and mold it to push MY agenda

same kind of shit pat robertson does.

Just a horrible "article".

fantastic.

this whole article is bullshit.

if it's really about Hollywood's "guy gets the girl" cliche that has been skewed with maybe 10 movies where the less statute-esque guy gets the girl...i mean come on..LOL...that isn't her real basis for an argument....

if the argument is that hollywood is male dominated and driven...so is most of the world, expecting hollywood to be less so is folly...

so what is her REAL point? or is she just upset about something she clearly can't put into words that make a conclusion

....you cannot blame hollywood for people being crazy, it can drive certain people to think they can get away with crazy things based on their fame or status, but that's just an excuse for an already mentally unbalanced person to do what they do....

i saw the phrase "knee jerk" used to sum up people's responses that this article is huff, but it...is...

>that has been skewed with maybe 10 movies where the less
>statute-esque guy gets the girl...i mean come on..LOL...that
>isn't her real basis for an argument....


oh you don't know film history
or woody allen

my bad
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

i'm not gonna return your snark, you hold onto that for a special occasion....anyway, we're still talking about a small amount of movies as far as that "guy gets girl" staple goes , but i get that you have your agenda...

y'all got that covered


~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

this is absolute agenda posting

and you knew what the responses would be because for the most part PTP can be a rational crowd

the premise of the article is dumb as shit

...but her acting like she isn't working an angle is a lil odd to me, but ok.... i call it "trap posting"....it's entertaining though

you see bloo chomping at the bit

y'all can shoot that rabid dog down at any point

who you respond to
how you respond
what you respond to
NOT responding

its pretty much all telling
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

good luck on the grand experiment though...what will you do with the information that you gather? do any of these reactions suprise you? i'm genuinely curious...

litmus test

are you surprised in here?
you certainly haven't surprised me i can say that
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

..i find your snarky tone entertaining....litmus test huh? that's cool....but you aren't suprised with the results, soooo...it went the way you planned?? cool....carry on...

It's not my gender with the major issues here.
So quite frankly who cares about your Knee jerk defensive standard responses

*shrug*

Go back to being typical for posterity's sake

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

...i have no issues with the subject matter, i just think the premise of the "article" is flawed in its supporting evidence...you may not...that's fine...i'm not mad at anything, cause i'm in here cause i'm bored and it's entertaining to watch you vs "them"..but keep dissing if that's all you wanna do, i'm never gonna be offended sis...

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

IE. sexism, lack of representation, stereotypes when it comes to female characters and representation.

On the other hand, I agree with Apatow on this

"why is it always everything but mental illness?” Because that doesn't sell papers."

Or in this case gun control.

It just veers to closely towards my pet peeve argument of "Rappity rap is what causes crime in the hood" or "Grand Theft Auto makes you homicidal".

It's not hard to find Apatow's sneering contempt for the opposite sex in his movies (like Longo said above, Funny People has some great examples). However id argue that the bromance films are one of the symptoms then the cause.

she picked the wrong apatow vehicle
but she isn't wrong



btw Longo pointing out Bridesmaids and Girls can be questionable
i find them refreshing
but it really is in the way the patriarchal influence affects us all kind of way that hollywood doesn't show


note in both only one had a good looking halfway decent looking guy
and he wasn't with the average looking chick

note in none of apatow's movies are there average chicks with those schlubs


so again she isn't wrong
those movies further the theme of not just regular guys
but particularly schlubs get the good looking girl
as bad if not worse than chick flick romances

does it lead directly to mass shootings?
nah
but it sure does add to that entitled feeling when regular guys get turned down
and want to blame those women for those homocidal maniacs

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

which is what most feminist blogs do

if youre annoyed with some shit women do you automatically get labeled a misogynist

just on the basis she's uninformed and wrong

i'm out.
_____________________
"WHOLESALE REUSABLE GROCERY BAGS!!"
@etfp

not like there aren't any

but i'm not so sure the reception would be better
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

has been disgusting as shit

if you take away the blogs, message boards, and twitter, feminism becomes rational again.

the problem is just a couple of extremists with avenues to express themselves and get cosigns that gives feminism a bad name.

>if you take away the blogs, message boards, and twitter,
>feminism becomes rational again.

this is the truth 100%

whenever feminism is defined, a rational person would say "sure I can get with that"

then you read these blogs from feminists......

...and talk about how "feminists" spun it?

That's weird as fuck.

With everything he wrote and all the stuff in his Youtube videos, you concluded that feminists spun the narrative.

How myopic.

i'm out.
_____________________
"WHOLESALE REUSABLE GROCERY BAGS!!"
@etfp

The killer said horrible things that many women have heard from other non-killers in their own lives. I hardly think using this as a jump-off point to remind people about the toxic culture of misogyny in the country/in Hollywood is inappropriate in the slightest.

in dudes manifesto he talks about how white people are superior and minorities (specifically minority men) are scum and dont deserve the prize of white women

and then dude kills mostly minority men in his rampage

its more of a racial hate crime than it is a crime against women

but that isnt being talked about...really at all

... the response from a number of people online after seeing dude's video was "maybe if a girl had just given him the time of day, he wouldn't have killed those people."

I agree that the other troubling shit he says/writes isn't being talked about, and I'm not remotely one of those people that think his misogyny CAUSED his murderous rampage. But it's far more likely nowadays that people will publicly cosign the idea that girls are mean to guys when they say they don't want them than they will publicly cosign the racism.

It's ALL troubling. But for half the population, the misogyny is the type of thing they hear far too regularly, openly from people who have no problem saying it, with no consequence.

>... the response from a number of people online after seeing
>dude's video was "maybe if a girl had just given him the time
>of day, he wouldn't have killed those people."

i honestly havent heard anyone saying that

>It's ALL troubling. But for half the population, the misogyny
>is the type of thing they hear far too regularly, openly from
>people who have no problem saying it, with no consequence.

i think misogyny should be better defined

because its become an amorphous word that seems to mean anything a woman doesnt like

"Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women."

I pulled that from Wiki. In short, it covers things that any women would be absolutely justified in hating.

----------------------------



O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

But there's no wrong time to take a serious look at how sexist Hollywood is.

I do think she's getting way too close to the "Marilyn Manson caused Columbine" argument, and that's where she messed up. But let's not act like male entitlement isn't a huge fucking problem.

>But there's no wrong time to take a serious look at how
>sexist Hollywood is.
>
>I do think she's getting way too close to the "Marilyn Manson
>caused Columbine" argument, and that's where she messed up.
>But let's not act like male entitlement isn't a huge fucking
>problem.


i feel like this is her job to relate it to what she does
and the most recent bone for her to pick was apatow
inept and too quickly done and wrong projects


but it also made for good bait

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>Even if 51 percent of our movies were made by women, Elliot
>Rodger still would have been seriously ill. But it’s worth
>examining who gets to be represented on screen, and how.

That "But" beginning the second sentence is pretty much an admission that she's not comfortable driving over the cliff and saying that she believes there's a meaningful, causal connection between movies and murder. It may as well read: "Even if 51 percent of movies were made by women, my car would top out at just 22 miles per gallon. It's a shitty car. But it's worth examining who gets to be represented on screen, and how."

>meanwhile again this is where folks reactions become more
>hilariously telling than the original article
>sacred apatow/rogen cows n shit

Sure, with respect to, say, my reaction. Yours is revealingly over-the-top as well. This mini-brouhaha demonstrates pretty effectively that arguing on the internet doesn't really bring out the best in people.

I think Seth Rogen is reasonably upset at being accused, with odd specificity, of giving an "attaboy" to murder.

>Sure, with respect to, say, my reaction. Yours is revealingly over-the-top as well.



nah

nice try though
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

You posted it and implicitly co-signed the author's poorly constructed argument that these two chuckleheads are complicit in an actual murder.

Your ability to predict the obvious reaction doesn't make you the sober, reasonable one in the room.

but go on then if it makes you feel better
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

There are issues with representation in film but this is some nonsense. The "True Alpha Male" shit came from the pick up artist sites that this guy was obsessed with. Seeing sexual frustration from a college kid and saying "It must be the movies he watches" is beyond myopic.

the handsome, chosen alpha male that women should be throwing themselves at. In his manifesto and his posts, he railed against nerd/slob/beta male types who did better with women than he did because they "didn't deserve it."

I don't think seeing Jonah Hill (kind of) get with Emma Stone in Superbad was a wish fulfillment for him. If anything, it just would've made him madder, because in his mind those types of women were supposed to belong to him.

>I don't think seeing Jonah Hill (kind of) get with Emma Stone
>in Superbad was a wish fulfillment for him.

The "Apatow (et al.) pairs fat schlubs with hot girls" thing always kind of seemed more true in general than in specific examples. But Superbad is pretty rough.

the entitlement


if those guys are entitled to "the best of the best"
than he absolutely most certainly is "deserving"
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Again, I'm sure what this kid saw in the real world far outweighed the impact of seeing Seth Rogen with Rose Byrne.

to be 100% white

he felt that would be the answer to all his problems

She did say subtle and exacerbate


She didn't blame this on those movies but pointed out how they reflect and feed the entitlement
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

"it’s just as clear that his delusions were inflated, if not created, by the entertainment industry he grew up in."

That wording made it seem to me like she was saying there was a chance that they created the delusions but they at least inflated them.

She also wrote: "no one should be surprised when those impulses take luridly literal form in the culture at large."

You're trying to downplay her screed but it was a horrible piece of writing and one that does a disservice to the points you're trying to make. Using the act of a madman to try to point out the influence Hollywood can have over everybody is a waste of breath and distasteful IMO.

like you said below hollywood definitely assists in shaping world views in addition to PUA's


she's pointing it out
again in a clumsy attempt
knee jerk reactions will happen regardless
that messenger (unless white and male) will be shot no matter how good or bad the package it comes in


btw i just found out on of his parents has a closer association than i realized
its sobering
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

>The "True Alpha Male" shit came from the pick up
>artist sites that this guy was obsessed with.

He posted on Bodybuilding.com and PUAHate.com, a forum dedicated to hating pick up artists.

found they didn't work.

They don't hate pick up artist's because they're objectifying creeps, but because they didn't magically get them laid.

He never once tried to approach a girl, with or without pick up artist "techniques"...he just walked around in expensive clothes and got mad people didn't talk to him. So he never actually tried pick up artist stuff at all.

using their tricks.

I don't think the pick up stuff CAUSED him to do this stuff, mind you, but it absolutely fed into his misogyny and his inability to see women as human beings.

Pick Up Artists teach that you can make yourself more attractive to women through a combination of self-improvement and practicing "game" (i.e. going out and repeatedly trying to talk to people)

His videos make it sound like he has some hardwired belief that there's some reason women hate him, there's nothing he can do about it, so he will retaliate by 'destroying them'

If he actually spent 2 minutes in the Pick Up Artist community, someone would critique the way he projects his voice, the weird shit he says/bad views he has, and try to teach him to practice changing it, try to get him to engage in a hobby to meet people other than flaunting his nice car and gucci clothes

I know its uncool/not socially acceptable to defend pick up artist stuff, but I actually do think it could've helped him if not getting laid was the sole reason for his rage, and its obvious he didn't actually engage in it at all.

The pick up artist stuff echoed his belief in women as sexual objects and little more than that. Also, this kid didn't seem to have self-esteem issues; he was a sociopath with an inflated belief in his self-worth, that women apparently should have literally been attracted to him and thrown themselves at him. It's not like he was saying these girls could do better than him (which is what I think of as self-esteem issues that PUA sites can "help"); he was saying they were ignoring the fact that he was in fact the True Alpha Male.
I mean, the fact that the guy hated pick up artists but lashed out (or, at least, attempted to, at a sorority and not a fraternity says a lot about his fucked up worldview towards women.

The last thing this kid needed was the Pick Up Artists approach to valuing women in the world.

but is there any evidence he's actually picked up influence from....anywhere?

he seems like a weirdo among weirdos, like he fell into anti-pua by accident ( a counter niche to a niche) but even there, his view doesn't match the others.

throw in that he's been receiving professional help for...most of his life? according to the reports, what is society implanting in him that trained professionals (although who knows what that achieved), and parents who seemed (for whatever faults they may have) to be aware that he was troubled, tried to address it, and even called the police when it seemed like he might become violent.

based on the very little I know about the guy, he doesn't seem to have involved himself with any community extensively.

http://card.mygamercard.net/lastgame/rjcc.png

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Influence for killing? Obviously I'm not blaming that on anyone.

But he focused his rage based on expectations he had for college and from women. I'm not blaming PUAs for what happened at all but I'm also saying that training him in the ways of the PUA wasn't going to help him either. If anything, it might have made him more cold blooded. Who knows. I mean, just showing school shootings on the news could have influenced this kid to a certain degree.

With everything kids have to deal with, writing an article saying essentially, "You should kind of expect this when Judd Apatow movies show college being sex crazed orgies" is ridiculous to me.

from what I've seen, he doesn't seem to have picked up much from anywhere.

even his showing off for example. it's like "here's my car and my sunglasses (that someone else probably picked out) and that's it because I can't even imagine anything beyond that to stunt with"

how much his worldview was shaped by...anything in the way people would traditionally expect is unclear

http://card.mygamercard.net/lastgame/rjcc.png

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>The last thing this kid needed was the Pick Up Artists
>approach to valuing women in the world.

"I wonder if Elliot would have benefited from a decent PUA coach more than from those therapists and counselors. PUA has a generally poor reputation, and very deservedly so, but it is one of the few things that at least attempts to address the issues of people like Elliot.

I've never actually done it, but from what I've read, PUA coaches usually just "make" guys talk to girls and give them advice on what they did right or wrong. If he had had someone pushing him like that, he might have gotten some positive reactions and realized girls didn't hate him. And after he inevitably got enraged and started crying, the coach could have talked him through his emotions. This type of "counseling" might have been a lot more productive than just talking in the echo chamber of a therapist's office."

i agree with that quote 100%. Sure, as far as "valuing women", pick up artist literature objectifies women, but so do movies, music, and culture in general. Forcing him to approach and talk to people for the sake of eventually getting laid seems like the closest thing to a "solution" he could've had, since he was seeing therapists and took meds and clearly those didn't work.

That quote is someone guessing that something he doesn't really know about will help someone he's never met.

And the Pick Up Artist goes beyond objectifying women. I think it's a mindset that's unhealthy for many sane people, never mind a person who is as troubled as this kid.

There is no one "pick up artists mindset", if you actually delve into that stuff (i'll admit, i used to read it 5+ years ago) there's a ton of different ideas, some is totally misogynist and rapey, some is completely positive and looks more like self improvement and giving guys a way to actually practice social skills. Some PUA = Actively practicing feeling comfortable approaching and talking to people and trying to improve at it, which is exactly what he needed IMO.

I've known pick-up artists and while, yes, some stuff they preach is positive in terms of self-esteem, I can't say I found much of their approach to life as positive. And it most certainly didn't make me want to read books on the shit or prescribe it to a kid who is as troubled as this one.

I'm not blaming PUAs just like I'm not blaming movies. And I don't know the kid but given his history, I think the idea that a PUA could have swooped in and saved the day is bonkers to me (and assumes that his parents and trained professional therapists never tried socializing exercises.)

>I've known pick-up artists and while, yes, some stuff they
>preach is positive in terms of self-esteem, I can't say I
>found much of their approach to life as positive.

I'm not talking touchy feely "believe you have self-worth" type of self improvement; I read PUA materials that advocated things like taking Improv Acting classes or joining Recreational Sports leagues, Art classes, etc. for the sake of being in groups and having regular activities that you do and meet people, as well as going to the gym to stay in shape and lift your mood, etc.

>I'm not blaming PUAs just like I'm not blaming movies. And I
>don't know the kid but given his history, I think the idea
>that a PUA could have swooped in and saved the day is bonkers
>to me (and assumes that his parents and trained professional
>therapists never tried socializing exercises.)

Are there really socializing/approaching exercises that exist outside of PUA? I've never heard of them, but I do remember reading plenty of non-flirty/non"pickup" exercises PUA stuff advocated, like just walking around and smile and nod at 10 people, ask 10 people in a book store for recommendations, ask 10 people what time it is just to feel comfortable engaging and approaching people, etc...If those types of things exist outside the context of PUA, i've never seen them.

Someone as dangerous as him most likely would'nt be able to sift through it and separate the good from the bad, I'm just saying I think there is a lot of stuff in there that could potentially help guys similar to him (lonely depressed virgins who think its unfair that they are so alone and don't have girls in their lives)

>I'm not talking touchy feely "believe you have self-worth"
>type of self improvement; I read PUA materials that advocated
>things like taking Improv Acting classes or joining
>Recreational Sports leagues, Art classes, etc. for the sake of
>being in groups and having regular activities that you do and
>meet people, as well as going to the gym to stay in shape and
>lift your mood, etc.

>Are there really socializing/approaching exercises that exist
>outside of PUA? I've never heard of them, but I do remember
>reading plenty of non-flirty/non"pickup" exercises PUA stuff
>advocated, like just walking around and smile and nod at 10
>people, ask 10 people in a book store for recommendations, ask
>10 people what time it is just to feel comfortable engaging
>and approaching people, etc...If those types of things exist
>outside the context of PUA, i've never seen them.

Therapy isn't just people laying back on a couch, saying their feelings. Therapists do all of what you mentioned. A lot of therapy especially with kids is giving kids assignments and then, the following week, hearing them explain how things went, what went wrong, (and later asking the parents how things went, if they were there to see how the story matched reality.)
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the PUA guys got the idea from a therapist. The entire "life coach" concept is based around these things.

Maybe these parents just sent him to a talk for thirty minutes and write the 'scrip psychiatrist but it sounds like they were more involved than that.

Which is basically what a lot of people seem to get out of the PUA stuff (like the things you mentioned about how to interact with people, ways to get out of your shell, etc) without the seedier aspects.

>>The "True Alpha Male" shit came from the pick up
>>artist sites that this guy was obsessed with.
>
>He posted on Bodybuilding.com and PUAHate.com, a forum
>dedicated to hating pick up artists.

Didn't mean obsessed as in he liked them. Obsessed as in, through his hatred, they still helped shape his worldview.

There are alot of indications that he was involved in several parts of the 'manosphere'. Like this graph he made:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=elliot+rodger+graph&biw=1440&bih=763&tbm=isch&imgil=UITvf76mQWlBNM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTFRQG1qCIRq5BfWrtpfcShFyNYWCdhHszVwRVAH4JWJ7nr-79Y%253B615%253B409%253B5Pn6XcAK_ZkiNM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.mirror.co.uk%25252Fnews%25252Fworld-news%25252Fcalifornia-shooting-three-bodies-removed-3603730&source=iu&usg=__GTchg1uoUfjNSDthcmUIqGHzFW4%3D&sa=X&ei=mb2GU6SaLKjK8wG-0IDwCg&ved=0CDIQ9QEwAg#facrc=_&imgrc=UITvf76mQWlBNM%253A%3B5Pn6XcAK_ZkiNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi2.mirror.co.uk%252Fincoming%252Farticle3602460.ece%252Falternates%252Fs615%252FElliot-Rodger.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mirror.co.uk%252Fnews%252Fworld-news%252Fcalifornia-shooting-three-bodies-removed-3603730%3B615%3B409

The first two graphs are a very common topic in manosphere sites. The idea that basically 5% of men have sex with all the women and the other 95% of men don't have sex. Of course, there's nothing intrinsically sexist about this contention. For some, it would be merely a sociological observation. For Rodgers....it was justification for murder and hate.

But it's not a coincidence that he's espousing this view and he didn't formulate it himself. He got that from the manosphere.

as a conversation starter.

BTW, what is the evidence that kid was into hollywood's misogynist product? Does he talk about films alot?

Is it just that his dad works in the industry?





**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

OK, way more psychotic obvs (not to make light of this awful tragedy), but the kid's seeming composure on his creepy as f*ck videos while he spouted off all his nonsense reminded me of Dennis a little bit

what archetype would you say Dennis is based on?

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

more so then the others three main male characters on the show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ1lc6KASWg

Mac and Frank are just more like scumbag losers, but Dennis is the one that has the slightly sociopathic edge to him....and they play it up during specific jokes like the above. 80% of the time though, he's an equal bumbling idiot to the others.

But I see what you're saying

I actually thought that, too.

Glenn Howerton is a good actor, though.

Of a better presented argument
Will receive a better reception

(Though technically a woman will have to have written it to truly test the theory I already said a white guy would have to do it ...anyways)


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/27/your-princess-is-in-another-castle-misogyny-entitlement-and-nerds.html




Your Princess Is in Another Castle: Misogyny, Entitlement, and Nerds
by Arthur Chu

Nerdy guys aren’t guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick as long as we work hard. There isn’t a team of writers or a studio audience pulling for us to triumph by getting the girl.

I was going to write about The Big Bang Theory—why, as a nerdy viewer, I sometimes like it and sometimes have a problem with it, why I think there’s a backlash against it. Then some maniac shot up a sorority house in Santa Barbara and posted a manifesto proclaiming he did it for revenge against women for denying him sex. And the weekend just generally went to hell.


Youtube
So now my plans have changed. With apologies to The Big Bang Theory fans, this is all I want to say about The Big Bang Theory: When the pilot aired, it was 2007 and “nerd culture” and “geek chic” were on everyone’s lips, and yet still the basic premise of “the sitcom for nerds” was, once again, awkward but lovable nerd has huge unreciprocated crush on hot non-nerdy popular girl (and also has an annoying roommate).


This annoys me. This is a problem.

Because, let’s be honest, this device is old. We have seen it over and over again. Steve Urkel. Screech. Skippy on Family Ties. Niles on Frasier.

We (male) nerds grow up force-fed this script. Lusting after women “out of our league” was what we did. And those unattainable hot girls would always inevitably reject us because they didn’t understand our intellectual interest in science fiction and comic books and would instead date asshole jocks. This was inevitable, and our only hope was to be unyieldingly persistent until we “earned” a chance with these women by “being there” for them until they saw the error of their ways. (The thought of just looking for women who shared our interests was a foreign one, since it took a while for the media to decide female geeks existed. The Big Bang Theory didn’t add Amy and Bernadette to its main cast until Season 4, in 2010.)

This is, to put it mildly, a problematic attitude to grow up with. Fixating on a woman from afar and then refusing to give up when she acts like she’s not interested is, generally, something that ends badly for everyone involved. But it’s a narrative that nerds and nerd media kept repeating.

I’m not breaking new ground by saying this. It’s been said very well over and over and over again.

And I’m not condemning guys who get frustrated, or who have unrequited crushes. And I’m not condemning any of these shows or movies.

And yet…

Before I went on Jeopardy!, I had auditioned for TBS’s King of the Nerds, a reality show commissioned in 2012 after TBS got syndication rights to, yes, The Big Bang Theory. I like the show and I still wish I’d been on it. (Both “kings” they’ve crowned, by the way, have so far been women, so maybe they should retitle it “Monarch of the Nerds” or, since the final win comes down to a vote, “President of the Nerds.” Just a nerdy thought.)

But a lot of things about the show did give me pause. One of them was that it was hosted by Robert Carradine and Curtis Armstrong—Lewis and Booger from Revenge of the Nerds. I don’t have anything against those guys personally. Nor am I going to issue a blanket condemnation of Revenge of the Nerds, a film I’m still, basically, a fan of.


But look. One of the major plot points of Revenge of the Nerds is Lewis putting on a Darth Vader mask, pretending to be his jock nemesis Stan, and then having sex with Stan’s girlfriend. Initially shocked when she finds out his true identity, she’s so taken by his sexual prowess—“All jocks think about is sports. All nerds think about is sex.”—that the two of them become an item.

Classic nerd fantasy, right? Immensely attractive to the young male audience who saw it. And a stock trope, the “bed trick,” that many of the nerds watching probably knew dates back to the legend of King Arthur.

It’s also, you know, rape.

I’ve had this argument about whether it was “technically” rape with fans of the movie in the past, but leaving aside the legal technicalities, why don’t you ask the women you know who are in committed relationships how they’d feel about guys concocting elaborate ruses to have sex with them without their knowledge to “earn a chance” with them? Or how it feels to be chased by a real-life Steve Urkel, being harassed, accosted, ambushed in public places, have your boyfriend “challenged” and having all rejection met with a cheerful “I’m wearing you down!”?

I know people who’ve been through that. And because life is not, in fact, a sitcom, it’s not the kind of thing that elicits a bemused eye roll followed by raucous laughter from the studio audience. It’s the kind of thing that induces pain, and fear.

And that’s still mild compared to some of the disturbing shit I consumed in my adolescence. Jake handing off his falling-down-drunk date to Anthony Michael Hall’s Geek in Sixteen Candles saying, “Be my guest” (which is, yes, more offensive to me than Long Duk Dong). The nerd-libertarian gospels of Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and how their Übermensch protagonists prove their masculinity by having sex with their love interests without asking first—and win their hearts in the process. Comics…just, comics. (Too much to go into there but the fact that Red Sonja was once thought a “feminist icon” speaks volumes. Oh, and there’s that whole drama with Ms. Marvel for those of you who really want to get freaked out today.)

But the overall problem is one of a culture where instead of seeing women as, you know, people, protagonists of their own stories just like we are of ours, men are taught that women are things to “earn,” to “win.” That if we try hard enough and persist long enough, we’ll get the girl in the end. Like life is a video game and women, like money and status, are just part of the reward we get for doing well.

So what happens to nerdy guys who keep finding out that the princess they were promised is always in another castle? When they “do everything right,” they get good grades, they get a decent job, and that wife they were promised in the package deal doesn’t arrive? When the persistent passive-aggressive Nice Guy act fails, do they step it up to elaborate Steve-Urkel-esque stalking and stunts? Do they try elaborate Revenge of the Nerds-style ruses? Do they tap into their inner John Galt and try blatant, violent rape?

Do they buy into the “pickup artist” snake oil—started by nerdy guys, for nerdy guys—filled with techniques to manipulate, pressure and in some cases outright assault women to get what they want? Or when that doesn’t work, and they spend hours a day on sites bitching about how it doesn’t work like Elliot Rodger’s hangout “PUAHate.com,” sometimes, do they buy some handguns, leave a manifesto on the Internet and then drive off to a sorority house to murder as many women as they can?

No, I’m not saying most frustrated nerdy guys are rapists or potential rapists. I’m certainly not saying they’re all potential mass murderers. I’m not saying that most lonely men who put women up on pedestals will turn on them with hostility and rage once they get frustrated enough.

But I have known nerdy male stalkers, and, yes, nerdy male rapists. I’ve known situations where I knew something was going on but didn’t say anything—because I didn’t want to stick my neck out, because some vile part of me thought that this kind of thing was “normal,” because, in other words, I was a coward and I had the privilege of ignoring the problem.

I’ve heard and seen the stories that those of you who followed the #YesAllWomen hashtag on Twitter have seen—women getting groped at cons, women getting vicious insults flung at them online, women getting stalked by creeps in college and told they should be “flattered.” I’ve heard Elliot Rodger’s voice before. I was expecting his manifesto to be incomprehensible madness—hoping for it to be—but it wasn’t. It’s a standard frustrated angry geeky guy manifesto, except for the part about mass murder.

I’ve heard it from acquaintances, I’ve heard it from friends. I’ve heard it come out of my own mouth, in moments of anger and weakness.

It’s the same motivation that makes a guy in college stalk a girl, leave her unsolicited gifts and finally when she tells him to quit it makes him leave an angry post about her “shallowness” and “cruelty” on Facebook. It’s the same motivation that makes guys rant about “fake cosplay girls” at cons and how much he hates them for their vain, “teasing” ways. The one that makes a guy suffering career or personal problems turn on his wife because it’s her job to “support” him by patching up all the holes in his life. The one that makes a wealthy entrepreneur hit his girlfriend 117 times, on camera, for her infidelity, and then after getting off with a misdemeanor charge still put up a blog post casting himself as the victim.

And now that motivation has led to six people dead and thirteen more injured, in broad daylight, with the killer leaving a 140-page rant and several YouTube videos describing exactly why he did it. No he-said-she-said, no muffled sounds through the dorm ceiling, no “Maybe he has other issues.” The fruits of our culture’s ingrained misogyny laid bare for all to see.

And yet. When this story broke, the initial mainstream coverage only talked about “mental illness,” not misogyny, a line that people are now fervently exhorting us to stick to even after the manifesto’s contents were revealed. Yet another high-profile tech CEO resignation ensued when the co-founder of Rap Genius decided Rodger’s manifesto was a hilarious joke.

People found one of the girls Rodger was obsessed with and began questioning if her “bullying” may have somehow triggered his rage. And, worst of all, he has fan pages on Facebook that still haven’t been taken down, filled with angry frustrated men singing his praises and seriously suggesting that the onus is on women to offer sex to men to keep them from going on rampages.

So, a question, to my fellow male nerds:

What the fuck is wrong with us?

How much longer are we going to be in denial that there’s a thing called “rape culture” and we ought to do something about it?

No, not the straw man that all men are constantly plotting rape, but that we live in an entitlement culture where guys think they need to be having sex with girls in order to be happy and fulfilled. That in a culture that constantly celebrates the narrative of guys trying hard, overcoming challenges, concocting clever ruses and automatically getting a woman thrown at them as a prize as a result, there will always be some guy who crosses the line into committing a violent crime to get what he “deserves,” or get vengeance for being denied it.

To paraphrase the great John Oliver, listen up, fellow self-pitying nerd boys—we are not the victims here. We are not the underdogs. We are not the ones who have our ownership over our bodies and our emotions stepped on constantly by other people’s entitlement. We’re not the ones where one out of six of us will have someone violently attempt to take control of our bodies in our lifetimes.

We are not Lewis from Revenge of the Nerds, we are not Steve Urkel from Family Matters, we are not Preston Myers from Can’t Hardly Wait, we are not Seth Rogen in every movie Seth Rogen has ever been in, we are not fucking Mario racing to the castle to beat Bowser because we know there’s a princess in there waiting for us.

We are not the lovable nerdy protagonist who’s lovable because he’s the protagonist. We’re not guaranteed to get laid by the hot chick of our dreams as long as we work hard enough at it. There isn’t a team of writers or a studio audience pulling for us to triumph by “getting the girl” in the end. And when our clever ruses and schemes to “get girls” fail, it’s not because the girls are too stupid or too bitchy or too shallow to play by those unwritten rules we’ve absorbed.

It’s because other people’s bodies and other people’s love are not something that can be taken nor even something that can be earned—they can be given freely, by choice, or not.

We need to get that. Really, really grok that, if our half of the species ever going to be worth a damn. Not getting that means that there will always be some percent of us who will be rapists, and abusers, and killers. And it means that the rest of us will always, on some fundamental level, be stupid and wrong when it comes to trying to understand the women we claim to love.

What did Elliot Rodger need? He didn’t need to get laid. None of us nerdy frustrated guys need to get laid. When I was an asshole with rants full of self-pity and entitlement, getting laid would not have helped me.

He needed to grow up.

We all do.

"What did Elliot Rodger need? He didn’t need to get laid. None of us nerdy frustrated guys need to get laid. When I was an asshole with rants full of self-pity and entitlement, getting laid would not have helped me.

He needed to grow up."

Holy fuck. That's the stupidest shit I've read about this yet. Yes, the mentally ill kid just needed to grow up. I'd bet this guy would say Adam Lanza just needed to rub some dirt on it and stop being a dick.

And he completely blames the event on the culture. Insanity.

Where he should have focused was on the Rap Genius guy's response and used that as a way into this discussion. That's a legit discussion and one worth having. Arguing We should talk about misogyny not mental illness" is horrific.

...instead of just words.

Perfect example. He has a problem with Big Bang Theory. He still watches. He has a problem with Revenge of the Nerds but when he learned the actors from it were hosting the King of Nerds show, it only gave him "pause" and he says, "I like the show and I still wish I’d been on it."

Does the guy make one single suggestion on how to help people "get it" and "grow up"? It's like one lengthy humble brag of "Listen, nerd culture's screwed up but I get it and I wrote this article so now I can go back to liking all the same things in said nerd culture because, y'know, I only like the non-rapey/mysognystic parts."

Also, I'm sure his wife is probably like, "Hey, thanks for speaking out but can you chill on the not getting the girl stuff?"

He seems to be a step ahead of you there


And seems my theory is right you are definitely deep in knee jerk territory


Next reaction
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

A. I've said time and again that it's a problem. I even gave an example of using the Rap Genius reaction as a more appropriate jumping off point for the discussion.

B. Chu even admits, "I’m not breaking new ground by saying this. It’s been said very well over and over and over again." So just acknowledging it clearly isn't enough of an "action". Especially when legit actions, like the Rap Genius co-founder being forced to resign because of his "joke", are already happening.

>A. I've said time and again that it's a problem. I even gave
>an example of using the Rap Genius reaction as a more
>appropriate jumping off point for the discussion.

its reminding me of gun activists actually

"Yes its a problem
but its not US" *points in any other direction*
"WE will tell you whats appropriate and who is "right" on this issue"

pointing to rap genius "oh and THATS the problem tech and hiphop yeah
not movies nope"


Chu is saying its ALL a problem.
Start there. Acknowledge that hollywood and hollywood films is a big part of the cultural misogyny problem.

why there? because you seem to be in huge denial whenever the finger gets pointed there

I'm saying and Chu is saying its ALL a problem


>B. Chu even admits, "I’m not breaking new ground by saying
>this. It’s been said very well over and over and over again."
>So just acknowledging it clearly isn't enough of an "action".
>Especially when legit actions, like the Rap Genius co-founder
>being forced to resign because of his "joke", are already
>happening.

you have more work to do if you can even get close to stating where the problem is pointing in all other directions and now telling other people what are THEY going to do about it when YOU can't even acknowledge the problem in your favorite industry.

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

First off, how is Rap Genius blaming tech and hip hop? I'm not even sure how you could really blame hip-hop for that guy's ignorance, which is prevalent in America and the culture.
It's taking a legit example of mysogyny to point out the problem with our culture rather than shoehorning in examples after the actions of a mentally ill person.

>why there? because you seem to be in huge denial whenever the
>finger gets pointed there

Again, I didn't say movies aren't a problem. I said in this specific instance, blaming what happened on movies, which both articles you posted did do, is problematic to say the least.

You're using a tragedy to discuss a broader issue. I'm saying, we should discuss the issue but not in light of the tragedy. Your take away is, Oh, so you don't think it's an issue.

>you have more work to do if you can even get close to stating
>where the problem is pointing in all other directions and now
>telling other people what are THEY going to do about it when
>YOU can't even acknowledge the problem in your favorite
>industry.

Since you continue to ignore what I write/believe, there's no reason for me to continue.

If you want to celebrate stories that blame Rogen/Apatow/Revenge of the Nerd movies for this shooting and say that people with mental illness just need to grow up, have fun.

>First off, how is Rap Genius blaming tech and hip hop? I'm
>not even sure how you could really blame hip-hop for that
>guy's ignorance, which is prevalent in America and the
>culture.
>It's taking a legit example of mysogyny to point out the
>problem with our culture rather than shoehorning in examples
>after the actions of a mentally ill person.


still not sure if i'm misunderstanding you
you are naming the site instead of the mans name
which led me to the tech/hiphop aspect

A man who was mentally ill AND mysogynistic isn't shoe horning in anything. You do understand that everything he said many men across the country believe to the extent that its considered so normal that men chimed in including a founder of a site. What Moghadam chimed in on and Rodger carried out is a common sentiment that doesn't end with them.

Its threaded into the culture in film, music, the internet and Chu addressed nerd/geek culture.

There is no shoe horning going on here.

There is a lot of the usual lets only discuss this when YOU feel its appropriate and YOU are comfortable and on YOUR terms and when YOU deem its relevant though.

but oh yes you don't want to "do this" any longer

*not shocked*
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

which was a bold faced lie.

>There is a lot of the usual lets only discuss this when YOU
>feel its appropriate and YOU are comfortable and on YOUR terms
>and when YOU deem its relevant though.

Yes, when mental illness is involved, I think it's not an opportunity to discuss the other issues. Bringing it up when mental illness is involved is like pointing at a crazy homeless man screaming racist epithets and saying, "See, there's the problem with our racist culture."

And when one's take on mental illness is so jaw droppingly ignorant that he thinks people with mental illnesses just need to grow up, then I think it's better that they hold off for a few weeks and then write their piece about Big Bang Theory without the link to the psychopath's actions.
I mean, it's not like Hollywood doesn't give us countless opportunities to discuss these issues. Opportunities which are often allowed to just slide on by.

Ann Hornaday reviewed Neighhors - she said it's crude but made no stand about it, even ending her review with, "Not judging, just saying."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/goingoutguide/movies/neighbors-movie-review-crude-jokes-and-bromances-abound/2014/05/07/b0cf6abc-d52a-11e3-8a78-8fe50322a72c_story.html

She didn't touch upon it in her review of Kick Ass 2, which is basically ASKING to be critiqued on its mysogyny.

But now that an insane kid shoots up Santa Barbara and the nightly news is talking about his sexist screed, "Neighbors" is suddenly the example of everything that's wrong with society.

I think that's bullshit opportunism and I think it does a disservice to the issue because it's an everyday issue and it also usually exposes a complete lack of understanding of mental illness. None of which helps solve the problems at hand.

is your attempt to distance his actions from the rest of the male population and only relate it to mental illness

You dont see a problem with this?

Refusing to read what he wrote and what he said and relating it to what is still out there produced by NOT MENTALLY ILL male members of society. Moghadam just got fired.

So again THE NORM that too many men state repeatedly and reinforce through our culture do you understand that his stated rantings of misogyny was actually normal for our society?

bring up a homeless man would actually work IF that homeless man was saying EXACTLY what sterling said killed a bunch of folk and then you brushing it OFF and saying but thats "just" a homeless men yeah theres racism but OMG those dang homeless we gotta do something.

please TRY to connect those dots this makes you look pretty bad on both the mentally ill issue which no mentally ill person wants to be associated with
and the mysogyny issue which clearly you want this to have nothing to do with




~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

There's nothing to gain from bringing up this deranged kid in the discussion when there are countless examples of sane people saying these things and it drags the focus away from the everyday impact of this culture.

appreciate the check in from BigReg and Longo

the rest eh typical
~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.

Besides the fact that he let your disagreement sit there so you had the last word?

"Fixating on a woman from afar and then refusing to give up when she acts like she’s not interested is, generally, something that ends badly for everyone involved."

Our notions of human interaction in MOST forms of pop entertainment are terrifyingly shitty.

"If this HAD been about Apatow, then I would have felt honor bound to say he created one of the most feminist pieces of work and I would dare say masterpiece in the history of pop culture, which was Freaks and Geeks - and I will defend Funny People until the cows come home. And he has also helped Lena Dunham find an audience"


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

~~~~
When you are born, you cry, and the world rejoices. Live so that when you die, you rejoice, and the world cries.
~~~~
You cannot hate people for their own good.