I just watched the whole series again last week and despite people slagging off the last three or four seasons, I thought it was consistently good throughout. I also noticed a conservative bent to the show that I didn't catch the first time around. For instance, in the episode where Dr. Melfi is raped, the perpetrator is released on account of the most implausible technicality I've ever heard of. There's no way that would happen in real life, but it feels like they're trying to perpetuate the canard that liberal judges are soft on crime and government can't do anything right. Then there's the episode where a rapper tries to get restitution from Hesh for records some of his family members made in the '70s but where cheated out of royalties from. The episode concludes with Hesh threatening to counter-sue the rapper after discovering he's used an uncleared sample from one his label's artists on a rap song. This creates the false equivalency that somehow the once widespread act of cheating Black artists out of their royalties is somehow the same as a rapper sampling a song. It propels this notion held by old white guys like Bill O'Reilly that after almost 40 years in existence, Rap music is not a genuine form of art or expression. I'll post up more examples if I think of them. Does anyone know if David Chase is a Republican or actively involved in conservative politics? What do you guys think? Am I just reading too much into this?

>also noticed a
>conservative bent to the show that I didn't catch the first
>time around. For instance, in the episode where Dr. Melfi is
>raped, the perpetrator is released on account of the most
>implausible technicality I've ever heard of.
>that would happen in real life, but it feels like they're
>trying to perpetuate the canard that liberal judges are soft
>on crime and government can't do anything right.

Couldn't disagree more. The greater purpose of that, as I perceived it, was to fuel the self-hating/Elitest Italian fire of Melfi's ex husband, because they initially thought he was Puerto Rican. So not only did this dude do the deed, he got away with it, and he represented the scourge of the Italian community that Melfi's ex had a huge issue with.

>the episode where a rapper tries to get restitution from Hesh
>for records some of his family members made in the '70s but
>where cheated out of royalties from. The episode concludes
>with Hesh threatening to counter-sue the rapper after
>discovering he's used an uncleared sample from one his label's
>artists on a rap song. This creates the false equivalency that
>somehow the once widespread act of cheating Black artists out
>of their royalties is somehow the same as a rapper sampling a
>song.

Huh? It was an example of Hesh pulling a power play. It doesn't create a "false equivalency", it was an example of how shady that business was, and more to the point, the kind of man Hesh was.

>It propels this notion held by old white guys like Bill
>O'Reilly that after almost 40 years in existence, Rap music is
>not a genuine form of art or expression.

Erm.... IMO...You're really stretching here. That's more or less force-read subtext on your part. That was all about showing Hesh's particular brand of gangsta (especially in light of his sexual proclivities)and setting up Chrissy and Adriana's short-lived career as music producers. If it DOES say that, it's saying what pretty much every Italian male character in the show says about it. Remember Tony and Noah? Yeah, there's a definite viewpoint on race relations from this culture being shown.

>I'll post up more
>examples if I think of them. Does anyone know if David Chase
>is a Republican or actively involved in conservative politics?
>What do you guys think? Am I just reading too much into this?

Personally, I think so. You're trying to take hidden messages from a show that wore it's messages high on it's sleeve. It's not a show of subversive symbolism, it's rather overt and blatant and crass and in your face about it's points.

in the end Hesh KNEW he did artists dirty. He tried early on to justify it by saying he gave black artists their start, but when they show him alone listening to old tracks, we see him kinda acknowledging how he screwed people over... it was as close to remorse as he got. once he found the sample thing, he went right back to the justification tip, by saying these guys are getting rich off me, so fuck it. Hesh was a greedy dick. the show made it pretty clear.

after that episode, even Hesh's "thing" for black women was more of an extension of him looting black culture, than just a simple preference

>>also noticed a
>>conservative bent to the show that I didn't catch the first
>>time around. For instance, in the episode where Dr. Melfi is
>>raped, the perpetrator is released on account of the most
>>implausible technicality I've ever heard of.
>>that would happen in real life, but it feels like they're
>>trying to perpetuate the canard that liberal judges are soft
>>on crime and government can't do anything right.
>
>Couldn't disagree more. The greater purpose of that, as I
>perceived it, was to fuel the self-hating/Elitest Italian fire
>of Melfi's ex husband, because they initially thought he was
>Puerto Rican. So not only did this dude do the deed, he got
>away with it, and he represented the scourge of the Italian
>community that Melfi's ex had a huge issue with.

I think it may have been a bit of both. But elitism and this belief that everyone else is unproductive and lazy and only you represent the "real" america seems to be a big thing in the Republican party today

>>the episode where a rapper tries to get restitution from
>Hesh
>>for records some of his family members made in the '70s but
>>where cheated out of royalties from. The episode concludes
>>with Hesh threatening to counter-sue the rapper after
>>discovering he's used an uncleared sample from one his
>label's
>>artists on a rap song. This creates the false equivalency
>that
>>somehow the once widespread act of cheating Black artists
>out
>>of their royalties is somehow the same as a rapper sampling
>a
>>song.
>
>Huh? It was an example of Hesh pulling a power play. It
>doesn't create a "false equivalency", it was an example of how
>shady that business was, and more to the point, the kind of
>man Hesh was.
>
>>It propels this notion held by old white guys like Bill
>>O'Reilly that after almost 40 years in existence, Rap music
>is
>>not a genuine form of art or expression.
>
>Erm.... IMO...You're really stretching here. That's more or
>less force-read subtext on your part. That was all about
>showing Hesh's particular brand of gangsta (especially in
>light of his sexual proclivities)and setting up Chrissy and
>Adriana's short-lived career as music producers. If it DOES
>say that, it's saying what pretty much every Italian male
>character in the show says about it. Remember Tony and Noah?
>Yeah, there's a definite viewpoint on race relations from this
>culture being shown.

And you don't think that kind of racism is based in conservatism. It goes hand in hand with Carmella being forced to endure Tony's cruelty because the Catholic church doesn't like divorce

>>I'll post up more
>>examples if I think of them. Does anyone know if David Chase
>>is a Republican or actively involved in conservative
>politics?
>>What do you guys think? Am I just reading too much into
>this?
>
>Personally, I think so. You're trying to take hidden messages
>from a show that wore it's messages high on it's sleeve. It's
>not a show of subversive symbolism, it's rather overt and
>blatant and crass and in your face about it's points.

Really? You think a show with vague dream sequences including two that stretched for nearly an entire episode is overt?

with racist conservative messaging

none of that stuff is presented in a good light. tony and them's ignorance on social issues is highlighted on multiple occasions

>And you don't think that kind of racism is based in
>conservatism. It goes hand in hand with Carmella being forced
>to endure Tony's cruelty because the Catholic church doesn't
>like divorce

I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying that because the characters are racist, or the views of the characters tend to be in line with "conservatism," that the creators of the show are conservative or are espousing conservative views? If so, I totally disagree.

If anything, the stuff about how they made Meadow look like a hypocritical "liberal-in-theory-but-not-practice" rich girl might have been a better example to use, but I still don't agree with your overall premise though...

>>And you don't think that kind of racism is based in
>>conservatism. It goes hand in hand with Carmella being
>forced
>>to endure Tony's cruelty because the Catholic church doesn't
>>like divorce
>
>I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying that because
>the characters are racist, or the views of the characters tend
>to be in line with "conservatism," that the creators of the
>show are conservative or are espousing conservative views? If
>so, I totally disagree.
>
>If anything, the stuff about how they made Meadow look like a
>hypocritical "liberal-in-theory-but-not-practice" rich girl
>might have been a better example to use, but I still don't
>agree with your overall premise though...

Wait, so you claim my premise is baseless, but then you help me out with an example?

>>>And you don't think that kind of racism is based in
>>>conservatism. It goes hand in hand with Carmella being
>>forced
>>>to endure Tony's cruelty because the Catholic church
>doesn't
>>>like divorce
>>
>>I'm not sure I understand this - are you saying that because
>>the characters are racist, or the views of the characters
>tend
>>to be in line with "conservatism," that the creators of the
>>show are conservative or are espousing conservative views?
>If
>>so, I totally disagree.
>>
>>If anything, the stuff about how they made Meadow look like
>a
>>hypocritical "liberal-in-theory-but-not-practice" rich girl
>>might have been a better example to use, but I still don't
>>agree with your overall premise though...
>
>Wait, so you claim my premise is baseless, but then you help
>me out with an example?

Not really - I'm just saying that the example I mentioned fit the mold of your premise at least as well as the examples you used - but even if you used it, you would have been missing the show's greater context and still would have been ultimately wrong. If you're going to be wrong, though, you might as well make your argument as strong as possible.

Also, I didn't really say your claim was baseless, just that I disagreed.

>I think it may have been a bit of both. But elitism and this
>belief that everyone else is unproductive and lazy and only
>you represent the "real" america seems to be a big thing in
>the Republican party today

You're just reaching. These are the characters and their viewpoints. It's not the show runners subversively sending us messages. You're taking this example of Chase taking a look at some of the very real viewpoints of some Italian Americans and trying to pass it off as some larger statement being made, but it simply isn't the case. You're seeing exactly what you want to see and you don't seem to have no objectivity whatsoever.

>And you don't think that kind of racism is based in
>conservatism. It goes hand in hand with Carmella being forced
>to endure Tony's cruelty because the Catholic church doesn't
>like divorce

Of course it is, but you're completely ignoring every last ounce of context. Literally ignoring all context. You seem to have a very poor understanding of the show in general. Carmella wasn't forced to endure anything- she was complicit in everything Tony did, and she's made a concious choice to be in the relationship for benefits financial and otherwise.

She plays the "married to Tony Soprano" card quite a bit to her advantage. Her Catholic views are an element to the whole, and a large one, but again, this serves to highlight her blatant hypocracy. She's one of the worst hypocrites in the show, hands down. Her "inner conflict" always gives way to her greed and desire for status.

>Really? You think a show with vague dream sequences including
>two that stretched for nearly an entire episode is overt?

YES!!!!!YES!!!!! YES!!!!!Those dream sequences weren't exactly rubix cubes! Come on now. With the exception of the several episodes of Tony's dream state in the final season, I'd say. Plus Melfi's entire character was fucking spoon feeding us every drop of subtext regarding Tony, explaining shit verbatim, as well as her husband being the Chief Wop-Hater.

Look, you see what you want to see, and you ignore a shit ton of context that's slapping you in the face in every episode because you really want this to be some red state statement.

I think you're the one who's hemming and hawing here. You claim Dr. Melfi's rape was used as fodder for her ex-husband's hatred of working class Italians. Then why the need to also have him released from jail for something as absurd as officers not following transfer protocol? Wouldn't being raped be enough to enrage her husband? But no, government also had to fail her, and the only way she could get real justice (if she chose to) would have been the ever-efficient free market (Tony Soprano as the emblematic representation of the worst aspects of American capitalism). There IS a message in there, whether I can articulate well or not.

And as The Analyst pointed out, there's also the fact that Meadow, the only true liberal on the show, is portrayed as the most obnoxious stereotype of liberalism one can imagine. It's so cartoonish I almost sympathize with Tony when he derides her for her preference of "hippie" colleges like Berkeley.

>I think you're the one who's hemming and hawing here. You
>claim Dr. Melfi's rape was used as fodder for her ex-husband's
>hatred of working class Italians. Then why the need to also
>have him released from jail for something as absurd as
>officers not following transfer protocol? Wouldn't being raped
>be enough to enrage her husband? But no, government also had
>to fail her,

NO SHIT!!! THATS THE POINT!!! LOL!!!
I mean, really. That was the whole point. She was failed on every level- and like I said, not only did he do the deed, he got away with it.

and the only way she could get real justice (if
>she chose to) would have been the ever-efficient free market
>(Tony Soprano as the emblematic representation of the worst
>aspects of American capitalism). There IS a message in there,
>whether I can articulate well or not.

No there isn't. There just isn't. You're trying real, real hard to find one because *you want it to be there*.

>And as The Analyst pointed out, there's also the fact that
>Meadow, the only true liberal on the show, is portrayed as the
>most obnoxious stereotype of liberalism one can imagine. It's
>so cartoonish I almost sympathize with Tony when he derides
>her for her preference of "hippie" colleges like Berkeley.

LOL, she IS that liberal- but like her mother, JUST LIKE HER MOTHER, AHEM, she's really just another Soprano hypocrite who, when it gets right down to it, has no real conviction as it pertains to the things her father does. She reaps the fruits of his labors, and were she *really* bout her shit, she wouldn't have used a dime of Tony's blood money to finance her education or anything else for that matter.

He said *if anything* you could try to make a case for her character being the liberal punching bag... and he also said in the end you'd be wrong. That's still a stretch. She's not much different than a typical college student who leaves home and within two months thinks their a fucking know it all on social, political, economic, and religious topic. She's also the epitome of the kid who grows up in a superstitious (they aren't religious, really, but mostly superstitious, with catholocism as their foundation) home with a certain set of ideals around her, and when she gets away from that rigid environment, gets exposed to other ideas, begins to formulate her own. She's actually pretty common.

The whole thing is a mash of belief systems, situational ethics, manipulation, etc.... all within the context of rather vividly written and physically portrayed characters who happen to be italian american..... that's the perspective it's written with, and that's what you ignore completely. Which was also pointed out to you.

I'm sorry but your perspective is pretty off on this one.

It seems to me like you're grasping at straws and desperately trying to be a contrarian because you can't admit the fact that I present an erudite and well-reasoned argument. You're the type of guy who would argue for days that The Crucible really wasn't about McCarthyism.

>It seems to me like you're grasping at straws and desperately
>trying to be a contrarian because you can't admit the fact
>that I present an erudite and well-reasoned argument.

Grasping at straws? Are you kidding me? Is this serious?
You're over here squeezing blood from a stone, but you think you're erudite and well reasoned?

I've gone through that show more times than I can count. In fact, Ive got the whole damn series on mp3 and I've listened to that shit start to finish several times in the last two years- and I'm in the middle of season three at the moment.

>the type of guy who would argue for days that The Crucible
>really wasn't about McCarthyism.

You come across as a guy who saw a few episodes once and got all happy to make a knee jerk post about all this subtext you were looking for and thought you found.

ALLLLL that shit you've said is a huge stretch.

>>It seems to me like you're grasping at straws and
>desperately
>>trying to be a contrarian because you can't admit the fact
>>that I present an erudite and well-reasoned argument.
>
>Grasping at straws? Are you kidding me? Is this serious?
>You're over here squeezing blood from a stone, but you think
>you're erudite and well reasoned?
>
>I've gone through that show more times than I can count. In
>fact, Ive got the whole damn series on mp3 and I've listened
>to that shit start to finish several times in the last two
>years- and I'm in the middle of season three at the moment.

LOL at this nigga hearing a VISUAL medium and trying to school me on it.

>>the type of guy who would argue for days that The Crucible
>>really wasn't about McCarthyism.
>
>You come across as a guy who saw a few episodes once and got
>all happy to make a knee jerk post about all this subtext you
>were looking for and thought you found.
>
>ALLLLL that shit you've said is a huge stretch.

I've watched the show since it was first on television. I decided to watch the whole thing again and found nuance I didn't notice upon my first viewing. See original post.

>LOL at this nigga hearing a VISUAL medium and trying to school
>me on it.

It's all dialogue and character. In fact, you'd be surprised at the effectiveness of experiencing a show like The Sopranos entirely in audio. Lost, Battlestar Galactica, SVU, they all provide a significantly different experience when you just listen to them. It's not a Michael Bay summer action extravaganza, it's a character piece.

>I've watched the show since it was first on television. I
>decided to watch the whole thing again and found nuance I
>didn't notice upon my first viewing. See original post.

I did see the original post, but again, you're reaching. Far. Stretching like crazy. You're seeing what you want to see, and seeing it far outside of context.

Writing a character means writing the viewpoint of said character, writing his or her mannerisms, tendencies, history, likes, dislikes, the food they eat, all that. So you're watching this show full of Italian mobsters, a segment of the population who historically harbor certain values, habits, traditions, etc, and yet here you are viewing it entirely oblivious to that context and wondering why an old Jewish music executive not only doesn't want to pay a black artist for their work, he wants to sue another black artist for sampling the work of a (probable) black artist because said Jewish guy wasn't getting paid for it.

DO YOU REALIZE HOW BRAND NEW YOU SOUND?

Thanks for the high-minded debate

that's REALLY not your thing.

__________________________________________________________________________
Skrillex.

I'm taking action

on that "my first insight into socio political subtext in a tv show for my sociology class term paper" tip

As a writer you choose what situations to put your characters in.

I think we all can agree that a writer need not bring up those issues and situations when telling a story. I think we can all agree that a writer or a team of writers intentionally chooses to tell particular stories.

Perhaps the tropes you mentioned were ones that any writer would reach for in trying to say something about their characters.

Perhaps those tropes are often used by many Hollywood writers.

Is it evidence of intentional social conservatism?
Evidence of unconscious social conservatism?
A reflection of reality?

I don't honestly know. When I was in law school, the professors consciously or unconsciously chose to cover cases that were particularly brutal to women. If there were 5 appellate cases about whether or not someone had the "mens rea" to commit a crime, they chose the one where a woman would be brutally raped, as opposed to one involve a man high off his ass shooting another man.

Misogyny? I don't know.

Should people making movies/tv have someone that does a Political correctness/agenda check? I don't think so. I'd prefer the unedited thoughts of the people I choose to entertain me be known. Just like the Girls show, i'd rather Lena Dunham tell her story of privileged WASP's and Jews without having to throw me a bone.

Should we, as the audience, let off the David Chase's, Lindelhof's, and Dunham's for their stories which do implicate bigger issues?

I think we should be able to have that voice. The artists seem to always want to silence the critics, but I think if you put it out there, I can comment on it, and the artist is free to take my comments or ignore them.

The writers/studios/stations are a free to ignore our voices.

To me though, It really comes back to the oppressed, be it black, latino, women, poor white people, et cetera being able to tell their own stories to counterbalance what is being said in mainstream media.

And ideally, those who dislike what is being said, can produce, distribute, and show their own tv shows and films that represent their views and speak to those that agree with them.

And in the bigger picture, it is about those of us without a voice, getting into positions, inside the system and outside the system, preferably in our own system where our voices, ideas, thoughts, and stories can be heard.

one
k. orr

no, I didn't notice that.

Which was exploited rather well as a plot point during the war with Phil. It doesn't even remotely give the impression that the show itself is espousing favor toward that particular conservative world view.

>Which was exploited rather well as a plot point during the
>war with Phil. It doesn't even remotely give the impression
>that the show itself is espousing favor toward that particular
>conservative world view.

i mean the opposite, actually. having a guy you don't like cheering for the patriot act clearly means it's not pushing conservative values.

At this point, since the OP has given actual evidence for his theory, the only really way you're going to be able to dismiss this is to find counter evidence of liberalism portrayed in a positive light on the show...

And honestly, I don't think you're going to be able to do it.

End post.

but I don't really think dude gave any sort of evidence.

having 'conservatives' in a story doesn't make the story 'conservative.'

>At this point, since the OP has given actual evidence for his
>theory

No, he provided theories based that completely neglected the context of character profiles within the show. All of his points are rather easily refuted through minimal examination of the characters themselves, and it requires extensive reaching just to arrive at his conclusions.

Hesh suing MG wasn't some mouthpiece for David Chase to assert a perceived lower value of rap music in comparison to other musical styles. To arrive at that conclusion is to feign complete ignorance of all context; Hesh made his living looting black artists for their talent and keeping the money. He fucked black women. He's pretty much a dead on caricature of the stereotypical Jewish music exec from that era- and a dead on caricature of the stereotypical mob associate. How many other examples of extortion, of that same exact type of power play, appear in the show?

IT'S A SHOW ABOUT THE MOB!!!

And this guy is up in arms about a black guy getting more or less fucked by a shady Jewish record exec? I mean, that's pretty much the kind of shit I would expect to see in a show like this, and anyone who doesn't is pretty naive.

We're looking into a world that largely espouses an overall negative perception of other cultures, a segment of society that takes and takes and

>the only really way you're going to be able to dismiss
>this is to find counter evidence of liberalism portrayed in a
>positive light on the show...

It's a show about white, Italian criminal enterprise, and you're looking for liberal politics? Do you even read this shit before you hit "post message?"

character's motivation and politics as the show creator/runner's own personal thoughts and politics

It's not hard to do, given shows such as The West Wing and The Wire, where the people who created and ran the shows had characters that were virtual mirror images of them and their views on life and politics

But not every show is like that, nor should it be assumed that every show is like that

Especially if you present specious evidence as the backup to your claim

__________________________________________________________________________
Skrillex.

you can find instances like an episode like Unidentified Black Males which show italian criminals blaming everything on imaginary black boogie men, and some other race issues were addressed, and i would argue that none of the so-called conservative views shown by its characters were portrayed in any type of glorified light that could be seen as pushing conservatism, but overall the show wasn't pushing a political message either way

to prove it's not pushing social conservatism doesn't mean you have to prove that it's pushing liberalism. You just address the OPs reasoning, and evidence. and dismissive replies aside, the OPs reasons all were addressed (easily, and reasonably, really). The OPs is entitled to stick to his guns, but to me he seems busy trying to "win" than to hear anything tho

blah blah got into this school because she's black and Meadow is like "please, i'm blacker than her mother!"

the whole AA issue was brought up multiple times when Meadow was in the hunt for schools


as far as your claim, not sure

They were just plain racist, thieving, filthy, scumbags.

Hell, the episode "Unidentified Black Males" says it all.

These mobsters occasionally use the language of the social conservative movement to hide-behind and/or justify what horrible people THEY are.

Just like "social conservatives" do for the most part.

Chase has said that these characters are idiots, and that he created them in order to shine a light on ignorant folk who constantly lie to themselves and others

Which I'm sure will be misread as "glorifying" them, which is not the same thing

They're there to be laughed at and mocked

And yes, empathized with as well

But certainly not celebrated, or held in extremely high regard

That doesn't sound like something a so-called conservative would do

__________________________________________________________________________
Skrillex.

>They're there to be laughed at and mocked
>
>And yes, empathized with as well
>
>But certainly not celebrated, or held in extremely high
>regard
>
>That doesn't sound like something a so-called conservative
>would do
This IS something a conservative might MISS.

Like "Born in The USA" as a prideful song.

Like Stephen Colbert being an actual conservative.

Like the idea of "self-deportation" being a real thing, and not some idiotic bullshit Romney got conned into saying. http://pocho.com/hispanics-for-wilsons-first-press-release-touting-self-deportation/

The problem with the Sopranos for some is that the characters con the viewers into identifying with them and even rooting for them.

We feel awful that Silvio is left nearly brain-dead and in a coma - but how did we forget they way he murdered Adriana?. He's no hero - conservative or otherwise.

He's a piece of shit. But a sly, funny, and engaging one.

They are sociopaths. And if you we're rooting for them (as I was) then you got got.

Archie repped a parody of a certain type of working class, right wing american white man. his views mainly were put out there to be mocked, but wound up gaining a following for all the wrong reasons

of an upper middle class white family by some black dudes..

while they drive off, the dad in in frustration lets out a "fucking niggers". when his wife is shocked at what he said, he responded "who else huh?!"

the next clip is Tony looking at Polaroids of that car and two others that were stolen for him

the show wasn't huge on social commentary, but there's little things like that throughout. and yeah, Unidentified Black Males is one of the stronger examples.

Almost painfully so, in fact.

I don't have time to get into it now, but the liberalism was sometimes quite heavy-handed... Especially towards the end, it was so blatantly anti-Bush: Tony telling Paulie "You're doing a helluva job, Brownie"... or Little Carmine as an analog for Dubya (that's never been confirmed as being intentional, but it strikes me as quite obvious)... the whole (pointless) issue around terrorism and profiling in the final season... Chrissy expressing the ignorant opinion of the typical pro-Bush booster ("You don't listen to the president? We're gonna mop the floor with the whole fuckin' world! The whole world's gonna be under our control!")... Ditto Butch ("Far as I'm concerned, this is like 9/11. Tony wanted our attention? Fine. He got our attention. Now we wipe 'im off the planet.")

Sure there are some occasional jokes made about the excesses of liberalism, especially with Meadow and Finn (like where Finn rationalizes not wanting to get a McJob because he might be taking a job away from a minority) but you also have or the random barbs showing the hypocrisy of conservatives, such as when Tony, Carmella, Bacala and Janice are talking with such pride about how their parents were immigrants who snuck into the country and then end the conversation with "They oughtta build a wall NOW, though." And then you have Tony's grasping with his feelings towards homosexuality, which was pretty progressive...

As has already been said, you are reading too much into it, misinterpreting a whole lot (did the show in any way try to suggest that Hesh was a hero in his deal with Massive G? nah...) and also confusing the point of view of the characters with the point of view of the show itself.

>... or Little Carmine as an analog for
>Dubya (that's never been confirmed as being intentional, but
>it strikes me as quite obvious)