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Forum nameThe Lesson
Topic subjectDilla Time: The Life and Afterlife of J Dilla, the Hip-Hop Producer Who Reinvented Rhythm
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=3036297
3036297, Dilla Time: The Life and Afterlife of J Dilla, the Hip-Hop Producer Who Reinvented Rhythm
Posted by chincheckin, Thu Jan-13-22 12:17 PM
Comes out February 1.....A MUST HAVE!

https://www.amazon.com/Dilla-Time-Afterlife-Producer-Reinvented/dp/0374139946/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1VC22KPDPQ4LH&keywords=dilla+time&qid=1642094171&sprefix=dilla+%2Caps%2C216&sr=8-1
3036298, anxiously waiting for my pre-order.
Posted by LeroyBumpkin, Thu Jan-13-22 03:30 PM
3036299, ooh, nice
Posted by Options, Thu Jan-13-22 06:54 PM
I never read the Donuts 33 1/3 book, but we're definitely due for more Dilla-related tomes. bring 'em on!
3036332, copped! Thanks for the heads up!
Posted by DJR, Sun Jan-16-22 07:28 PM
3036334, A must-read
Posted by seandammit, Mon Jan-17-22 02:17 AM
Compelling, revelatory, the story of the man/the producer/the real impact that he made on music as we know it. I can’t say enough good things about it. Everyone must read this book.
3036371, Anyone know if Donuts are Forever/Dilla Day events are happening
Posted by bentagain, Wed Jan-19-22 09:50 AM
this year?

3036551, Apparently, there’s a fake paperback version with the same name and cover.
Posted by JFrost1117, Thu Feb-03-22 09:24 PM
Some small pamphlet type thing by a completely different author.
3036552, Charles Hamilton still at it?
Posted by DJR, Thu Feb-03-22 09:38 PM
3036554, WTF? You Sure That's Not Some Amazon Printed Bootleg?
Posted by Dj Joey Joe, Thu Feb-03-22 10:01 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, I've heard of amazon taking older books that's out of print, finding a copy, and basically copying, pressing up their own copies.


3036619, Read the review.
Posted by JFrost1117, Sun Feb-06-22 03:11 AM
https://www.amazon.com/Dilla-Afterlife-Hip-Hop-Producer-Reinvented/dp/B09RJJ3H8W/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=dilla+time&qid=1644135062&sr=8-7

If you search, there's also another version by someone else that's not Charnas.
3036607, Dilla & T3 are dissing each other on t
Posted by High Society, Sat Feb-05-22 01:27 PM
Keep It On
3036614, Did Dilla's ol man ghostwrite "It's A Shame"?
Posted by LeroyBumpkin, Sat Feb-05-22 11:23 PM
I'm just starting Dilla Time, but I love this type of stuff.
Charnas never confirms but it's a great "what if".
3036627, The footnote from different source accounts...
Posted by The3rdOne, Mon Feb-07-22 11:18 AM
...are a dope addition to this book. Its really inconclusive to me. Interesting how a later chapter parallels this situation to Dilla's "Got Till ITs Gone" with Jimmy Jam ad Terry Lewis debacle as I first thought when they talked about Its A Shame.
3036616, It’s an informative book, BUT…
Posted by supablak, Sun Feb-06-22 02:33 AM
I be FALLING ASLEEP to ALL the “These Are African Rhythms Printed Swing Tutorials”, sheesh..
Not a skimmer, but, man…every time the book turns to these diagrams, it’s like listening to someone trying to explain a “Holy Ghost”, to a cat

But it’s a wild read nonetheless, as a Detroiter…not sure about some of the accuracy of Dan Charnas timelines. But I applaud him for adding splashes of the city’s development, in context to Jay Dee’s contextual development.

s.blak
Y’all Ain’t Ready
3036631, Got the audiobook for this exact reason
Posted by grey, Mon Feb-07-22 03:22 PM
Just started but I imagine reading the type of musical stuff is a lil tougher to digest for non-musician folk (me).
3036624, a call from Raphael Saadiq....
Posted by The3rdOne, Mon Feb-07-22 11:13 AM
Saadiq: Your Without You remix needs more work....its too sparse.
DIlla : Suck my dick! (Then hangs up the phone)
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
3036696, Wasn't Jay & Raphael Both Apart Of UMMAH?
Posted by Dj Joey Joe, Fri Feb-11-22 09:50 PM
>Saadiq: Your Without You remix needs more work....
>its too sparse.
>DIlla : Suck my dick! (Then hangs up the phone)
>😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

Wow, might have been an inside joke or on some serious resentment how the UMMAH group situation dissolved; either way I still liked Dwele's (the one that featured Phat Kat) remixed version compared to Jay's even though I think Dilla was going for that stripped down vibe on a few of his remixes at the time (such as the Macy Grey "I Try", Spacek "Eve", & the Toshi Kubota "Nothing But Your Love", etc.).


3036709, RE: Wasn't Jay & Raphael Both Apart Of UMMAH?
Posted by The3rdOne, Sat Feb-12-22 09:32 PM
Saadiq was loosely affiliated with the UMMAH...but not on the same business contract as DIlla, Tip, and Ali. Reading Dilla Time and comprehending the context, Dilla did NOT like to be pushed or rushed no matter who it was. He snapped on cats he worked with seemingly random, but he definitely had a method to his madness. It was conveyed that he actually got pissed at Saadiq as opposed to having a very different and humbling approach to the dude in charge of the Blue Note Remix project (I forget his name). THey wanted Dilla to do his Brother Jack McDuff version of Oblighetto over. They anticipated Dilla blowing up, but he actually took the criticism like a champ and then blew the remake out of the water.
3036735, Yeah way I read it was
Posted by High Society, Tue Feb-15-22 08:56 PM
Dilla was worried about messing with the original too much and Blue Note peeps told him, MORE DILLA. He said alright, and gave them a classic.
3038209, Curse out the brother, humble with the white guy?
Posted by spirit, Sat Jun-04-22 10:39 PM
Don’t know if any of this happened like the book said, but (if it is true) the optics are awful.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com
3038208, There’s nothing remotely cool about that.
Posted by spirit, Sat Jun-04-22 10:36 PM
That anecdote and numerous others in the book just made Dilla look like a dick. In some parts, it felt more like a hit piece than a book.

Some parts made him look like a moron. Wearing a Diamond necklace as he walked around Brazil, in terrible health, but still fronting with the tough guy role?

That weird DOOM anecdote?

(Told after he died, so he can’t defend himself)

It’s all fuckery.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com
3036752, Finished this over the weekend and I thought it was great
Posted by DaKidFromHaiti, Thu Feb-17-22 08:03 PM
I never read The Big Payback but I think I’ll check it out on the strength of this book alone. Highly recommended.
3036898, Can We Address The Donuts Myth
Posted by jaymack, Fri Feb-25-22 08:46 PM
So my understanding after reading this is that he actually laid out those Donuts chops and cuts on a DAW. Not a Boss SP-303 or even a 404, which seemed to be the interweb urban myth lore. Interesting.
3038105, Would love a follow up on this.
Posted by Nodima, Tue May-24-22 05:10 AM
I should just buy the book, of course, but...

In the meantime...



~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz
3038181, Gotcha.
Posted by jaymack, Thu Jun-02-22 06:52 PM
"At first, Wolf wasn't sure what he was listening to. These weren't warm neo-soul Jay Dee beats...This kind of "time stretching" wasn't possible on an MPC. He'd done all these beats right on his laptop, via his Pro Tools software, which enabled James to see the waveforms--dice and recombine them, squeeze and stretch them--in ways he never before attempted. Created in a burst of energy after James's discharge from Cedars-Sinai in early 2005, Donuts emerged as a complete thought."
3038182, Thanks! n/m
Posted by Nodima, Fri Jun-03-22 04:39 AM

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz
3037654, About 50% through...thoughts.
Posted by LeroyBumpkin, Wed Apr-27-22 11:07 AM
I'll try to leave out spoilers?
I don't know.

So many thoughts:

- This is a must have book for any fan of Jay Dee or the Soulquarian era. Like most of the Soulquarian stuff I knew, but it helped to give context to how they saw Jay. Like I walked out of this even more convinced Jay Dee WAS the 2nd wave of Neo Soul. Dan's research and interviews in this book proves it.

- Had no idea some of the albums Jay Dee could have worked on, but passed.
Reading about his journey, it's like do you want to water down your art and get bigger,
or stay pure to your art but stay small?

- So much of his art is about him doing it HIS way (again, to the point above). I see a lot of myself in him in that I want the freedom to make whatever I want to make, but when your art becomes a business like this, you have to make sacrifices. I kept reading this thinking, "Dude, if you had done production on X album, the power you'd have later would have given you even more freedom."

- Kinda odd reading about his personal life. He comes off as moody and a jerk at times. If this is the detail they're going into on this, I know it's gonna be rough once I get to the part where he passes.

- Welcome Back 2 Detroit (smh)

- I have never heard this Frank & Dank album that Jay Dee produced.

- Jay Dee's wanting to be his own man (not under the Ummah, not under Soulquarians)...I get it. Again, I'm going through the same thing. But Jay Dee didn't have the structure (manager, etc) to help guide that other aspect of his career. Actually let me take that back. The ONLY structure he had was making music. Part of me wants to say "Oh, he would have gone so much further had he...", but maybe that's not what he wanted. Maybe that's me as a fan wishing more people would discover his genius. Honestly, maybe if he had ever reached those things, I would have abandoned him (he's not underground anymore...etc.).

- EDIT...oh, I still don't believe the Got 'Til' It's Gone story. Even after they explained it...ha ha.

3037672, RE: About 50% through...thoughts.
Posted by The3rdOne, Thu Apr-28-22 10:57 AM
>- Kinda odd reading about his personal life. He comes off as
>moody and a jerk at times. If this is the detail they're
>going into on this, I know it's gonna be rough once I get to
>the part where he passes.
>

The footnotes describing the banter between Ma Dukes and Joy started to get cringeworthy and downright physically exhausting to listen to (I have the audiobook). The crazy thing is that I had a chance to chop it up with Ma Dukes a few months ago as she came to town. She told me that it gets deeper and there are even more documentary books being made that will delve more into personal shit. And why Househoes is even allowed to walk around without crutches is beyond me. Dave New York was gonna hang him off the balcony if he had a chance.....RIP
3038106, RE: what happened with shoes?
Posted by rmcphedr, Tue May-24-22 06:23 AM
curious about this...

3038107, ^
Posted by Brew, Tue May-24-22 08:53 AM
3038111, He posted some really vile stuff on social media attacking Ma Dukes
Posted by topaz, Tue May-24-22 09:53 AM
Basically accused her of milking Dilla's dialogue without giving much thought to Dilla's artistic vision. That's putting it nicely, his actual words were extremely foul and disrespectful, and he got beat up when he returned to Detroit after a show apparently.
3038112, *catalogue not dialogue
Posted by topaz, Tue May-24-22 08:33 PM
3038115, RE: wow
Posted by rmcphedr, Wed May-25-22 10:35 AM
WHO THE FUCK IS YOU SHOES?
3041484, tried to tell yall Shoes won't shit
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Thu Jan-19-23 09:22 PM
nobody listened to me but I knew it then, the way he was carrying on after Dilla died about how they were brothers and shit like that
3041713, He deserved to get smacked for that
Posted by makaveli, Wed Feb-01-23 10:48 PM
Maybe he wasn't wrong to be upset with her (who knows really) but to come at her publicly and use the words he did, he earned that smack.
3037716, RE: I have never heard this Frank & Dank album that Jay Dee produced
Posted by topaz, Tue May-03-22 06:28 AM
I think the album is 48 Hours - https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nhWd7TKrCygAECCoUt68UI7OKE9_OfAhQ

What I REALLY want to hear is the original cut of the album with the samples. Anyone got that?
3037735, RE: I have never heard this Frank & Dank album that Jay Dee produced
Posted by QBoogie, Tue May-03-22 03:05 PM
I think it exists and is out there but I recall it turning up way after my personal hype for it dwindled.
3037737, RE: I have never heard this Frank & Dank album that Jay Dee produced
Posted by QBoogie, Tue May-03-22 03:17 PM
I think it exists and is out there but I recall it turning up way after my personal hype for it dwindled.
3038113, RE: album as a whole isn't *amazing*
Posted by rmcphedr, Wed May-25-22 04:04 AM
but this beat is fucking phenomenal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZirWfHChww

3041714, Yeah the OG one is the one I want to hear
Posted by makaveli, Wed Feb-01-23 10:49 PM
3037674, Hardcopy or audio book?
Posted by xangeluvr, Thu Apr-28-22 12:17 PM
Are there things in the hard copy of the book that need to be visualized that I won't get from the audio book? Nowadays most books that I read are audiobooks as I'm driving to work because I don't tend to have the time to sit down with a book in hand anymore.
3037675, can only speak for the hard book
Posted by seandammit, Thu Apr-28-22 12:29 PM
There are some interesting visual diagrams used to illustrate the points about rhythm and the techniques that he employed that are pretty cool.

Another cool feature of the book is the index that lists his entire discography, which is a great/easy reference if you ever want to quickly check what he produced in, say, 2003.
3037690, RE: can only speak for the hard book
Posted by xangeluvr, Fri Apr-29-22 07:41 AM
Hardcopy it is then
3037946, RE: can only speak for the hard book
Posted by JtothaI, Fri May-13-22 03:18 PM
>There are some interesting visual diagrams used to illustrate
>the points about rhythm and the techniques that he employed
>that are pretty cool.
>
>Another cool feature of the book is the index that lists his
>entire discography, which is a great/easy reference if you
>ever want to quickly check what he produced in, say, 2003.

There is also a spotify playlist that is in the order of the songs mentioned in the book, kind of a companion piece to the book and I believe Charnas put it together.
3038098, damn!
Posted by Small Pro, Mon May-23-22 10:58 AM
just realized i never bought the hard cover, just the audiobook. would defiinitely love a list of his productions in order...the last time i had that was on this poster: https://www.musicismysanctuary.com/j-dilla-the-specialist-lithograph-poster
3038093, at about the 3/4 point
Posted by Options, Mon May-23-22 03:43 AM
been taking my sweet time working through this, and I've been really enjoying it. even though "The Life of~" is right there in the subtitle, it's MUCH more expansive than I anticipated. I always figured that at some point several books on Dilla would pop up, but after this, I don't really know what's left for anyone else to cover, haha.

I do feel like the author has used every bit of every interview, tho — I'm not particularly interested in reading about all of Dilla's cousins or the intricacies of his love life. but the highs are so very high, and having the details behind events I'm already familiar with colored in has been great. the analogies and connections made are truly excellent at times; in particular, The Matrix comparison made me put the book down for a moment in awe/appreciation of the skill on display. Charnas killed it.

by the way: anyone else come across the obviously bootleg 12" stamped with the Dilla Time cover image?
3038179, A valiant effort, but I have mixed feelings
Posted by spirit, Thu Jun-02-22 12:16 PM
The author’s take around page 237 that Jay Dee disliking people biting his technique was “small thinking”? WTF? Writing in the context of art form like hiphop where biting is (for a sizable contingent of participants) considered to be clown shit, that was…weird.

Would have liked to read more quotes on the record from Tip, Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis about that Got Til It’s Gone “issue” (to be honest, I don’t know who to believe after reading the book).

I could have lived without knowing a lot of the personal details (fights with significant others, cheating, etc).

The section on European versus African music was interesting, as was the Detroit street design section (although I could see how someone else might say “hey get back Dilla” I dug it).

Not sure about all the charts and the attempt to quantify Dilla’s technique so specifically (we all know generally he is playing with time and placement of the percussion, but I doubt that he was doing it the same way on every track, which is somewhat of the impression I got from the book; as if Dilla had a lab coat on and was like “there, got that hi hat exactly three milliseconds behind the fourth measure”). I think he was sequencing free hand and the elements fell where they fell. But what do I know, I don’t make beats.

Got over a hundred pages left to read. It is a quick read tho. Great for vacation reading.
3038183, Did he expand on that "small thinking" thought in the book at all?
Posted by Nodima, Fri Jun-03-22 04:45 AM
It's been a minute but when he was doing the press rounds and hit a couple of the podcasts I listen to, I also remember him bringing this up (specifically the Janet Jackson/Q-Tip situation if I remember correctly) and elaborating that if Dilla had been a little more willing to swallow his pride artistically or even just professionally, there were a lot of doors opened to him that he either chose to ignore or personally slammed shut, but that he was so consistent about it people pretty quickly chalked that up to Dilla being Dilla and mostly stopped trying to build bridges for/to him because of it so he got stuck as an underdog that didn't necessarily have to be.



It'd be kinda weird if the book didn't get into that much considering it was one of the more significant things I remember from when this book was dropping. I think that conversation might've even specifically been on the NY Times Popcast with Jon Caramanica.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz
3038200, For about a page but mostly as an extended aside
Posted by spirit, Fri Jun-03-22 03:56 PM
Basically the author seem to feel like Dilla’s techniques were an “idea” he put out into the universe that was “bigger than him” which strikes me as bullshit. I wonder how the author would feel if someone took whole passages from this book and put it in another book, with minimal changes, and said “thanks for putting that idea out there” LOL

Also just got to the part where he claimed DOOM said at the service for Dilla that he had a dream that Dilla wanted to do a posthumous album with him and let him keep most of the royalties. Saying something like that, after DOOM is dead and can’t defend himself, strikes me as a violation.

I also don’t like how so much of the book is devoted to Dilla’s health struggle. Between that and all the print devoted to Dilla’s interpersonal “drama” makes the book feel almost like a tabloid

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com
3038211, I disagree with this.
Posted by LeroyBumpkin, Sun Jun-05-22 09:03 AM
>Also just got to the part where he claimed DOOM said at the
>service for Dilla that he had a dream that Dilla wanted to do
>a posthumous album with him and let him keep most of the
>royalties. Saying something like that, after DOOM is dead and
>can’t defend himself, strikes me as a violation.

Dan Charnas was meticulous about his sources for events. Between events that happened in studio sessions all the way to the drama between his baby mother and his mother. So I'd find it very difficult to believe he's include that DOOM moment as his memorial without sourcing it from a variety of people. I mean, other people were there. That's not something that would be difficult to verify.


>I also don’t like how so much of the book is devoted to
>Dilla’s health struggle. Between that and all the print
>devoted to Dilla’s interpersonal “drama” makes the book
>feel almost like a tabloid

Definitely disagree here. His health issues and how his career ended are intertwined. You can't tell one story without the other. There's been a entire myth built around Jay Dee making Donuts from his hospital bed with his mother massaging his fingers so he could continue to make beats. All untrue. Also the most illuminating part of the book for me was how much Jay Dee ignored his health condition later in his career. That European trip? The South American trip? I was reading and thinking, "Oh wait, no they didn't let this dude get on a plane to Europe!" All of this is part of the story.
3038212, RE: I disagree with this.
Posted by spirit, Sun Jun-05-22 04:48 PM
“ His health issues and how his career ended are intertwined. ”


He kept working until he died. His health issues didn’t end his career, death did. That’s a pretty weird analysis. Death ends everyone’s career LOL

That still doesn’t justify spending that much time in the book on Dilla being in the hospital. He needed to sleep in order for his brain to have the capacity to keep working well enough to make beats. Should the author have dedicated twenty pages to describing Dilla’s mattress, the thread count of his sheets, and his preferred sleeping position?

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com
3038213, You missed the point on my DOOM comment
Posted by spirit, Sun Jun-05-22 05:29 PM
1) unless you can corroborate the sourcing or you personally eyewitnessed what happened, your “counter argument” is guesswork.

2) Even if he had a dozen ironclad sources corroborating, DOOM is dead and what he included in the book is unnecessary to the story he was trying to tell, so he could have left it out. Maybe decency is an old school concept now.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com
3044235, I'm reading the book, now
Posted by Numba_33, Tue Oct-10-23 12:39 PM
and got to the part you're referring to.

Pardon me if I'm wrong, but wasn't DOOM alive by the time the book came out? I understand your sentiment on not wanting to speak ill of the dead since they aren't around to defend themselves, but DOOM technically was alive as far as the world knew when the book first dropped, no?

**my mistake**

Time truly flies; skipped my mind its been that long (2020) since DOOM had passed. I thought it was more recent than that for some reason.
3041474, This is probably a fairly dumb question
Posted by Numba_33, Thu Jan-19-23 03:18 PM
But would someone that is a cursory Dilla admirer get great insight from this book or is this only for folks that are truly devoted fans of his? I happen to like some of the stuff he did for non-okayplayer and non-Detroit folks (De La Stakes is High material, Pharcyde's second album, that one Chino XL track from a while ago), but for the most part didn't like stuff he did for his solo records or okayplayer related ventures outside of Dynamite for The Roots.

I promise I'm not trying to troll and I don't mean any disrespect given that the man is dead.
3041475, I think even if you're casual fan you will get something from it
Posted by seandammit, Thu Jan-19-23 04:55 PM
It's just extremely well-written, researched, and illuminative. I consider myself a hardcore fan and still learned a lot, so I think it's really something that anybody can get into.
3041486, there's a lot here — you'll get something from it
Posted by Options, Fri Jan-20-23 05:08 AM
just know that you'll also probably miss a lot if you aren't knowledgeable about most of Dilla's catalogue.

that being said, you may find the backstories and context interesting even if you don't love all of the music itself.
3041521, I would say it's great for anyone who loves music honestly
Posted by makaveli, Sat Jan-21-23 02:39 PM
I'm reading right now and loving it.
3041741, Paperback addition
Posted by makaveli, Sat Feb-04-23 09:01 PM
Thread below about the paperback version, some additions and he corrects some mistakes made in the OG. In curious to know about who was/wasn’t at the funeral.

https://twitter.com/dancharnas/status/1618623614835916801?s=46&t=A2TK-PgJuUB0pwWwzCSByw
3041751, I ended up ordering the hardcover version
Posted by Numba_33, Mon Feb-06-23 09:57 AM
from Turntable Lab a few days before I saw the author tweet (I'll never get used to typing out that word) about the paperback edition coming out.

I'm currently slogging through an autobiography of a whole other variety about Robert Moses, The Power Broker, but once I'm done with that, I'll give either the Dilla book or the Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf autobiography I bought about a month ago a solid read.

My initial question about wanting to read this despite the fact I'm not the deepest Dilla fan is because I heard about Hiatus Kiayote being mentioned in the book and an old song of theirs has been stuck in my head for the past 2-3 weeks now.