The title is a bit click bait-ish by using the term "worst" but who is the artist who is great on features but doesn't have a solo career worth anything?

I mean, did Nate Dogg (Rest in Peace) have any solo songs/albums anyone remembers?

And Nate Dogg might not be a great example because he was primarily a hook singer (right?) but what about Ty Dolla Sign?

Who falls in this category for rap?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

also, isnt this just basically this post?

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=3029478&mesg_id=3029478&page=4

>RE: i move to delete this post for the nate hate

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


>also, isnt this just basically this post?
>
>https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=3029478&mesg_id=3029478&page=4

Yes.

Elite level features
Arguable classic singles
No classic full albums or label compilations.

>Elite level features
>Arguable classic singles
>No classic full albums or label compilations.

Except Busta's albums held up better.

I think Luda's albums match the quality of his rapping. Word of Mouf is a mainstream classic and Chicken and Beer was very good.

Method Man? Has/had it all, just could never put together a solid front to back quality solo joint...

I mean you said it, he has had it all - immense talent and presence/personality, as well as Rza and the Wu machine behind him .. but just never made *that* album for whatever reason.

I still hold that his 1st solo is better than we all originally thought, but it's still not great or a classic or anything.

Yea he was a "disappointment" for the guy expected to be the break out star for the Wu, but he managed to have a pretty decent career

>Yea he was a "disappointment" for the guy expected to be the
>break out star for the Wu, but he managed to have a pretty
>decent career

classic albums but he's had a very successful solo career. He's had some great singles. Bring The Pain, All I Need, and a few others. If you cut the filler out of his albums they are still really good.

I think he spends most of energy on group projects (Red & Meth and Wu-Tang) and doing features for other projects and soundtracks. If he saved those songs/verses for his own stuff his solo catalog would be much, much stronger.

He could also probably headline a music festival and probably get away with only performing solo material.

Plus he came up with Wu-Tang which is all about working for the group more than themselves. Think about all of those Wu features that he contributed to Ghost and everybody.

Agreed on all that...incredible MC, just would have liked to have seen him buckle down and drop a solo classic...top 25-30 MC of all time regardless imo...

On paper I love it, but the both albums themselves are not my thing beyond a few songs.

I think his solo career was hurt by being connected to Wu-Tang and that sound (dark) for those earlier years and then trying to go a bit too commercial (with really only one note) once he really started branching out doing the Red and Meth albums. I would compare him to Black Thought being tied to the Roots for so many years in that it limited him to gain a larger audience because he only had a certain sound (neo soul and live band). Both of them eventually moved beyond that sound but the music landscape was totally different by then and it became much harder to get any traction in this streaming/pick your own media culture.

Think about how Nas or Biggie could (and did) rap over anything. Neither Meth or Thought them did a bunch of songs with Premo. There's a bunch of producers that they could have done great work with. I think they both missed out on the golden age of working with an all-star line up of Hip Hop producers where the beats took the front seat. I think Method Man did do it to some extent but they were all collaborations and features so he doesn't get full credit for those songs.

the only issue with that is that other MCs in the Wu were able to release certified bulletproof classic within the same context.

That to some degree leaves us to believe the issue was with Meth himself not being able to put together a complete album.

And therefore, why should we believe he would’ve been in the Nas/Big category using other producers. It’s more likely that he would’ve had the same outcome that he had within the Wu.

I do agree that he should’ve been able to release that 5 mic classic in either scenario but it just seems like he wasn’t quite the full album artist that other MCs were.

And I say this while holding both his first two solos, 421 and the first Blackout! album in high regard. I like all those albums and would argue Meth is under-appreciated.

But I can’t say he has a Liquid Swords, Cuban Linx or even an Ironman in his catalogue and he absolutely should.

and it's a shame that he doesn't. He's definitely under appreciated and should get the same level of respect as Nas or Biggie.

I just think it's super interesting to discuss why he doesn't have a certified classic album (IDK wasn't Tical initially considered one of the Wu classics or did I imagine that?)

My theory is that he was limited initially by being in the Wu while at the same time being bolstered by it. The first album was a RZA album featuring Method Man, but then when he had more control he didn't deliver.

He was the first to get a Wu solo and I think RZA learned from his mistakes, which allowed him to come stronger with the other 4 (Ghost, Rae, GZA and arguably ODB). I think Tical suffers by being a little too short, not having as many Wu members on it (it's really just Rae, RZA and Deck), and not having the Razor Sharp remix of All I Need on it. It also has a remix of M.E.T.H.O.D. Man which could have really just been a B-side.

You can see him trying to course correct really blatantly on his second album by having a million cuts and skits (28 tracks!) and being all over the place thematically. By having regular Wu/RZA type cuts on there and then the more mainstream stuff like the Trackmasters produced break up song with D'Angelo and... (Actually this album doesn't sound that commercial to me today, but I remember feeling it was very commercial when I first heard it. But that was another era...)

He definitely attempted to follow the Biggie and Nas formula and didn't produce a classic. (But personally I think this album is very similar to It Was Written: All over the place production-wise, a bunch of great songs, a bunch of filler, a couple skippable tracks, and some obvious cross over attempts.)

He's got an Erick Sermon beat, a Havoc beat, a Prince Paul/Chris Rock skit and Trackmasters besides Wu producers. Maybe he didn't go far enough and get more outside help from Premo, Pete Rock or some others. And, I think he messed up again by not having barely any Wu members on this one again. The track with all the Wu features, Spazzola is the worst beat on the album (produced by Deck).

I don't know. This album was a huge success initially without really standing the test of time. There are easily 8 excellent songs on this looking at it right now though. To me, I would take Method Man every single time as I think Illmatic is a little bit overrated (and nothing after that comes close to it) and I'm not that into Biggie (who only put out two albums.

>and it's a shame that he doesn't. He's definitely under
>appreciated and should get the same level of respect as Nas or
>Biggie.
>

Level of respect? I guess. But then how do you cut the fact he doesn’t have an Illmatic or Ready To Die. And I will disagree below more in depth, but his sophomore album isn’t It Was Written or Life After Death. So it’s kind of hard to put him at the same level. When you couple that with the fact he had probably more hype and higher expectations, his disappointing albums amplify.

>I just think it's super interesting to discuss why he doesn't
>have a certified classic album (IDK wasn't Tical initially
>considered one of the Wu classics or did I imagine that?)
>

It’s hard for me to tell. I was 12 when Tical dropped and while I copped it the day it came out, I don’t remember the actual convo around the album outside of my circle. I believe it got 4 mics. But if I remember correctly, it was always seen as a bit of a let down. We liked it and rocked it, but if we are honest, Illmatic and Ready To Die had already dropped. The year before we got Doggystyle. It was never on that level and he was the hottest MC in the game leading up to that album. His hype was more similar to Snoop than anyone else on the west because just like The Chronic had us anticipating Doggystyle, 36 had us anticipating Tical and it simply didn’t live up to the hype beyond Bring The Pain. As you said below, All I Need is dope but had the Razor Sharp mix been on the album...maybe we would be having a different discussion.

>My theory is that he was limited initially by being in the Wu
>while at the same time being bolstered by it. The first album
>was a RZA album featuring Method Man, but then when he had
>more control he didn't deliver.
>

I guess you could make the case that his skill set may have been better off served coming in as a solo artist and having a crop of producers to choose from but he really hasn’t done anything his entire career to make us believe that would’ve given him a better outcome.

>He was the first to get a Wu solo and I think RZA learned from
>his mistakes, which allowed him to come stronger with the
>other 4 (Ghost, Rae, GZA and arguably ODB). I think Tical
>suffers by being a little too short, not having as many Wu
>members on it (it's really just Rae, RZA and Deck), and not
>having the Razor Sharp remix of All I Need on it. It also has
>a remix of M.E.T.H.O.D. Man which could have really just been
>a B-side.
>

This I agree with. RZA hit his stride with Cuban Linx and continued through Liquid Swords and Ironman. ODBs was more in line with Tical if you ask me and I never liked that album outside of the singles.

>You can see him trying to course correct really blatantly on
>his second album by having a million cuts and skits (28
>tracks!) and being all over the place thematically. By having
>regular Wu/RZA type cuts on there and then the more mainstream
>stuff like the Trackmasters produced break up song with
>D'Angelo and... (Actually this album doesn't sound that
>commercial to me today, but I remember feeling it was very
>commercial when I first heard it. But that was another era...)
>
>

I don’t even think I copped that album when it came out. I was somewhat past Meth at that point. But I don’t recall anyone thinking it was commercial. Listening to it now I have a lot of appreciation for it. But overall, you’re right...it’s a sloppy mess of an album. Which leads me to my initial opinion that the issue was more with Meth when it came to crafting a classic album.

>He definitely attempted to follow the Biggie and Nas formula
>and didn't produce a classic. (But personally I think this
>album is very similar to It Was Written: All over the place
>production-wise, a bunch of great songs, a bunch of filler, a
>couple skippable tracks, and some obvious cross over
>attempts.)
>

I don’t think it’s anything like It Was Written. IWW is a certified classic and always has been. Sure there were people complaining about it not being Illmatic but they are in the minority. The album is cohesive and the beats are nowhere near as “shiny” as people try to fault it for. IWW also isn’t all over the place as far as quality of songs. Bunch of filler? Where?

>He's got an Erick Sermon beat, a Havoc beat, a Prince
>Paul/Chris Rock skit and Trackmasters besides Wu producers.
>Maybe he didn't go far enough and get more outside help from
>Premo, Pete Rock or some others. And, I think he messed up
>again by not having barely any Wu members on this one again.
>The track with all the Wu features, Spazzola is the worst beat
>on the album (produced by Deck).
>

And this is really the problem. He didn’t go all in on the Wu lane but he didn’t go all in on the “let me get the best production” lane. The Havoc beat he picked is average as FUCK. If Meth really wanted to be on that Nas, Big level, he had to get Preemo, Pete, and others. Do you know dope Meth would sound on some Buckwild or Beatminerz production??!! Perfect! Listen to Half Man Half Amazing...and yes, that was a Grap beat but dammit...it was so in-line with a PR banger I feel we can use it as proof of how dope a Meth/PR joint would’ve been. And that is 98 at the same time frame so why not work out the “I’ll hop on Soul Survivor, you bless a beat on my album” type of deal. But again, this proves my point that he just couldn’t craft *that* album. And maybe he was tied to Wu and RZA only loosened the leash so far. There’s stories of him having to sneak out to do The What and How High and those are damn near his two most iconic joints!

>I don't know. This album was a huge success initially without
>really standing the test of time. There are easily 8 excellent
>songs on this looking at it right now though. To me, I would
>take Method Man every single time as I think Illmatic is a
>little bit overrated (and nothing after that comes close to
>it) and I'm not that into Biggie (who only put out two albums.
>

But look at 94 as a whole. Yes, Nas and Big are the two biggest albums from that classic standpoint and those are the MCs Meth is closest to as far as stature. But is Tical real better than any of these albums;
Word...Life
The Sun Rises In The East
Resurrection
Dare Iz A Darkside
Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik
The Main Ingredient
Hard To Earn
Between A Rock And A Hard Place
The Diary
Blowout Comb
Stress...The Extinction Agenda
Street Level

The year was PACKED so for him to put out a disappointing album when all these other albums are dropping...it just makes the let down even worse IMO

Tical is closer to the east coast Regulate...G Funk Era than it is Illmatic.

More along the lines of The Most Beautifullest.

And I LOVE those albums but when we are talking about an A-Level MC releasing that level of an album...it just doesn’t sit right with most people and the MC gets more shit than they deserve. Because Tical is still dope as hell.

They had to try and remake it whilst they were on tour.

1 Have you heard that album? What makes you believe the outcome would be any different? This is not like the I Am bootleg. That album could’ve been worse for all we know.

2 Do we even know the actual story? I heard Deck say his album which was slated for 95 got ruined in the flood. Possible both albums did but I don’t feel like I ever got the full story of what was lost.

3 How does that change the actual output that we have gotten from Meth which is what we are making this assessment on? We still have plenty of solo albums to compare to other MCs of his caliber to come to a conclusion on.

1&2 Because Meth has mentioned it loads of times in interviews. He doesn't think Tical stood up to the first wave of solo albums because it was rushed because of the flood.

But what does that have to do with the rest of his albums?

His discography is what it is.

We can’t simply say he’s on the same level as Nas and Biggie because Tical got rushed.

Two out of those three MCs have multiple classics and he isn’t one of them.

the missed opportunity that was Tical (at least creativity, and I like Tical). I'm not even a big Meth fan, but I'd rather listen to him than Nas or Biggie. Just my 2 cents.

so he didn't make the rest of the Clan jealous.

Or making excuses.

Cuz that makes zero sense.

back in 2001 discussing how Tical ended up turning out underwhelming compared to the rest of the 1st wave Wu solo albums.

>I don’t think it’s anything like It Was Written. IWW is a
>certified classic and always has been. Sure there were people
>complaining about it not being Illmatic but they are in the
>minority. The album is cohesive and the beats are nowhere near
>as “shiny” as people try to fault it for. IWW also isn’t
>all over the place as far as quality of songs. Bunch of
>filler? Where?

Yeah, your'e definitely right about IWW. I really hated that Dr. Dre song when I first heard it (remember is came out just a few months after California Love) and definitely skipped a few tracks on there but I don't have those same complaints today. It's a tight 14 track album really. I was just super picky and a bit too underground vs. commercial back then.

>This I agree with. RZA hit his stride with Cuban Linx and
>continued through Liquid Swords and Ironman. ODBs was more in
>line with Tical if you ask me and I never liked that album
>outside of the singles.

I agree about ODB.

>And this is really the problem. He didn’t go all in on the
>Wu lane but he didn’t go all in on the “let me get the
>best production” lane. The Havoc beat he picked is average
>as FUCK. If Meth really wanted to be on that Nas, Big level,
>he had to get Preemo, Pete, and others. Do you know dope Meth
>would sound on some Buckwild or Beatminerz production??!!
>Perfect! Listen to Half Man Half Amazing...and yes, that was a
>Grap beat but dammit...it was so in-line with a PR banger I
>feel we can use it as proof of how dope a Meth/PR joint
>would’ve been. And that is 98 at the same time frame so why
>not work out the “I’ll hop on Soul Survivor, you bless a
>beat on my album” type of deal. But again, this proves my
>point that he just couldn’t craft *that* album. And maybe he
>was tied to Wu and RZA only loosened the leash so far.
>There’s stories of him having to sneak out to do The What
>and How High and those are damn near his two most iconic
>joints!

Yeah, but I think he missed his shot. He needed an executive producer with a clear vision to help guide him. RZA was pretty much done by then and obviously Method Man didn't want another Tical album so that's probably why we got what we got. He should have picked a lane and excelled at it. Before the year 2000. Before things really changed in the industry like no more Hype Williams million dollar videos and no more large price tag beats. I mean Nas doesn't work with great producers that often. We'll never know about Biggie's later career. At that time Method Man could have worked with anyone he wanted to. He had the budget and hype and respect.

>But look at 94 as a whole. Yes, Nas and Big are the two
>biggest albums from that classic standpoint and those are the
>MCs Meth is closest to as far as stature. But is Tical real
>better than any of these albums;
>Word...Life
>The Sun Rises In The East
>Resurrection
>Dare Iz A Darkside
>Southernplayalisticadillacmuzik
>The Main Ingredient
>Hard To Earn
>Between A Rock And A Hard Place
>The Diary
>Blowout Comb
>Stress...The Extinction Agenda
>Street Level

Yeah I agree Tical is not objectively above any of those. That was a hell of run from 92 to 96.

>Tical is closer to the east coast Regulate...G Funk Era than
>it is Illmatic.
>
>More along the lines of The Most Beautifullest.
>
>And I LOVE those albums but when we are talking about an
>A-Level MC releasing that level of an album...it just
>doesn’t sit right with most people and the MC gets more shit
>than they deserve. Because Tical is still dope as hell.

Agreed.

All were well played singles. All are Nate songs on his solo albums.

It’s too long and too many songs, but there’s a lot of good ones on there that I still play.

I was thinking of making a post about favorite artists who you wish made more music with a certain style. Something among those lines but figured this post basically covers the same.

Lyrics Born has to be considered. I absolutely love every feature he had before he started releasing solo albums. Latyrx was dope too. His first album was dope. Then I couldn't really get with his vibe. I still check for anything he releases but only his early stuff has replay value for me.

Chali 2na is another who I had high hopes for based on group work with J5 and Ozomatli. He had some dope featured tracks too. His solo career has been eh to me. Not a vibe I can get with mostly.

absolutely demolishes every feature. his relentless anachronistic flow is a little too much for even an EP

a more modern rapper might be ace hood but that was like a decade ago. maybe reason in 2021? some other TDE-slash-dreamville-adjacent rapper?

Though I always thought Ace was generic and Hustle Hard and Bugatti were about as much success as he will ever achieve.

I stumbled upon his solo record and it did have a couple of nice songs, But overall it was lacking.

And of course that was his only release I believe. I felt he was next as part of The Pharcyde and to not see him reach his potential is disappointing.

second album that got me so hyped for a Fatlip solo album and then so much time passed and then that hilarious single got me excited again but then just meh when the album finally came out.

He definitely missed his window. If he had dropped an album right after Labcabin with his skills and voice at that level, I'm sure if would have been top notch. Although I wonder about his taste in beats and what it would have sounded like if he wasn't happy with any of the beats on Labcabin. I mean he really wasn't a fan of any of those Dilla beats...

and group efforts.

I am almost never more excited about a feature than when it's "Jadakiss" after that "feat.", but outside him ripping other people's beats apart during the heyday of internet mixtapes Jadakiss' own work is pretty universally ROUGH at best.


Though I didn't hear his album last year and it seems like critics actually liked it which is rare.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

His album with Fab had its moments too.

Granted this is just one listen but I'm halfway through and it's half love songs so far. I don't really need to hear Jadakiss rapping about a girl's nail paint, lol.


I need a King Push, Freddie type album from him but I know I'll never get it at this point.


But yea, this is probably his best album, even if it's basically Rick Ross-lite with somehow even less hard talk.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

Kiss is like 45 or so, and seems to be in a good place. So I didn’t mind the content and smooth feel. He’s still got bars.

>but what about Ty Dolla Sign?

Killed his cameo's before releasing albums.

I know this is a controversial take LOL. He sounded like he had great chemistry on the Lost Boyz album with them and A+ and Redman. Maybe that was just a one time thing and was never meant to be more than those songs.

I always figured he stopped working with them because Wyclef came around and offered him more money and exposure. Can-i-bus was nothing like any of his highly appreciated cameos. I liked it personally but was definitely disappointed that it was nothing like anything we were expecting. It was a little too watered down and a little bit too commercial friendly. He should have assembled a great lineup of producers and tried to go in an illmatic-type route but with a lot of features. I guess he probably didn't have the budget to do that. But I imagine a lot of great producers and emcees would have given him a discount to be on a project like that because he had so much hype at the time.

Then I think he tried to course correct too much and by then not many people cared about him. I like a couple of songs off his 2nd album but that was even more disappointing if that's even possible.

Definitely agree it was a misstep but if dude was as talented as we all thought he was, well why didn't he eventually recover and do what he was supposed to do?

Like look, the Lox had a Bad Boy roll-out that didn't make sense for them. They eventually reverted to who they are and put out there own type of music.

Now Poet Laurette II is my joint, but why didn't Canibus just find his own lane and put out consistent music in it?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

of managing their own career. A lot of artists make amazing albums or do amazing work for a few years and then fall off completely when they stop working with certain managers or producers. A lot of rappers have horrible taste in beats or can't craft great songs. I know we always blame labels for interfering but there's a lot of classic music that never would have happened if it wasn't for the labels wanting a lead single or not signing off on certain things or for putting pressure on their artists.

Do you remember that Canibus rap battle where everyone was clowning him for his giant notebook? Ha ha.

>Do you remember that Canibus rap battle where everyone was
>clowning him for his giant notebook? Ha ha.

that beat was 3 years old when D'Angelo used it and Canibus passed it up, tells you everything you need to know about why his career ended up the way it did

And we're all eternally grateful he did.

I agree 100% about his decision making.

>And we're all eternally grateful he did.
>
>I agree 100% about his decision making.

Maybe not the worst but he deserves mention for having a super disappointing solo career.

Sure it’s a glorified EP but I love that shit lol

since he was Big Noyd to MOP's Mobb Deep.

*shrugs*

He was consistently solid on the mic.

I mean I can see why.

Nothing on My Will was going to generate attention in the year of the shiny suit.

So I’m not surprised he never got another shot.

But I like that album. It’s a cool little 10 track joint.

Nothing classic status but you can play it top to bottom.

And it just goes to show how fortunate Capone and Noreaga were being able to sell.


>Nothing on My Will was going to generate attention in the year
>of the shiny suit.
>
>So I’m not surprised he never got another shot.
>

His music is way too chill for me, I don't find it engaging. But he bodies every song where he's a feature. Hearing him rap live his voice, flow & projection are all amazing. Maybe he has made a project where he is spitting aggressively over Hiero-ish jazzy boom bap beats and I just missed it.

100% His solo album was such a let down. After Dark and Oakland Blackouts on 3rd Eye Vision were so dope.

I think Hiero had the a very similar album trajectory as Wu-Tang (minus a Hiero group album to start things off a la 36 chambers). Those first few solo albums were amazing production wise: Souls, Extra Prolific, Casual and Del to Tical, Ironman, Cuban Linx and ODB. And then things definitely changed but were still great with 3rd Eye Vision and Wu-Tang Forever. After that things were much more inconsistent. I think Pep Love's album = Inspectah Deck's or U-God's first solo albums. I'm sure sample laws were one of the biggest reasons for this. Or maybe pro-tools giving producers too many options to sterilize the music.

>100% His solo album was such a let down. After Dark and
>Oakland Blackouts on 3rd Eye Vision were so dope.
>
>I think Hiero had the a very similar album trajectory as
>Wu-Tang (minus a Hiero group album to start things off a la 36
>chambers). Those first few solo albums were amazing production
>wise: Souls, Extra Prolific, Casual and Del to Tical, Ironman,
>Cuban Linx and ODB. And then things definitely changed but
>were still great with 3rd Eye Vision and Wu-Tang Forever.
>After that things were much more inconsistent. I think Pep
>Love's album = Inspectah Deck's or U-God's first solo albums.
>I'm sure sample laws were one of the biggest reasons for this.
>Or maybe pro-tools giving producers too many options to
>sterilize the music.

Also he didn't drop a proper project until 2001. Insane.

Method Man and Ludacris being mentioned is ridiculous as they both have tons of solo hits, tons of solo album sales, and Grammys.

The answer is Canibus. An artist known for being amazing on features, super hyped off of those features, and absolutely no solo success whatsoever. When i was in high school Canibus was being mentioned just as much as DMX as they both had amazing features on songs. Difference was that DMX lived up to the hype with his first album while Canibus made the mistake of linking with Wyclef (i like Wyclef but he doesnt know how to make Canibus type music) and putting out a god awful first album. His second album was actually decent but it was too late.

mainstream success.

Difference was that DMX lived up to the
>hype with his first album while Canibus made the mistake of
>linking with Wyclef (i like Wyclef but he doesnt know how to
>make Canibus type music) and putting out a god awful first
>album. His second album was actually decent but it was too
>late.

I forgot about him. Incredibly skilled rapper with a ton of forgettable songs.

Canibus is a great answer but I can at least link 10-15 good Canibus songs.

So Damn Hood. He was to me back then the West Coast Canibus.

>I forgot about him. Incredibly skilled rapper with a ton of
>forgettable songs.