Swimming with Dolphin's period?

I am talking about that period or album after an artist blows up so they start doing stuff like adding orchestras or choirs to their songs when they were way more interesting with just like their small band or a mic and a dope beat. When they start doing collaborations not because it makes sense but because now they can get Elton John on the track.


I think of Prince when he went into his NPG phase. Axel Rose swimming with dolphins. I almost think of Kanye Late Registration but he actually kind of pulled it off.

You know what I am talking about? I am thinking the music heads would have a term for this. Is there?

If you know what I am talking about name some other artist and the albums in which they jumped that shark.


Or

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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

When Sting went solo, when his first few albums came out ("Dream Of The Blue Turtles", "Nothin Like The Sun", & "Soul Cages"), I liked the more mellow version of The Police type vibe, but then he started doing all these collaborations with world music & classical artists, and even getting into that new age sound even deeper but once in a while still try to do a few modern-vibe rock ballad tunes on the same album as well; but during each of those albums he would drop a live album with an artist you didn't think he would get with (and he still does that, those Shaggy collaborations wasn't good to me but I guess some people loved it), do a Spanish album, a semi-classical album, celtic albums, & etc.

what would you call My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy? I thought the Kanye album you would reference would be MBDTF. You bring up the point about LR and with good reason because that album was trying too hard in a lot of ways. But like you said, he managed to make it all stick.

Or would MBDTF be like Smile! but actually released on time?

But I actually don't know that album well enough to know it's accurate. In fact, until I just googled it I didn't realize he had ELton John on that album. I mentioned Elton John in the OP as an exaggeration and was thinking of Eminem.



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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

All of the Lights has brass and I *think* Elton John on it.

It's Late Registration on steroids, and that's saying something.

That being said, it's arguably his best album (at least in the press). No matter what style - banger, posse cut, introspection, musical virtuosity - it hits the mark.

I'm not really a Kanye guy but after listening to DISSECT's season on My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, the level of artistry really hit home. He put in his foot in that album.

He made “big” records, both in sound and success, on those albums that weren’t nearly as long and pretentious.

But it also raised the idea of what a hip-hop album could be.

Maybe it's not his best but it's probably his most 'important'. That being said, outside of Monster and Power, I don't listen to it as often as Late Registration or Graduation.

>But it also raised the idea of what a hip-hop album could be.

>He made “big” records, both in sound and success, on
>those albums that weren’t nearly as long and pretentious.

And I hated how everyone was so quick to label it his best.

I thought the backstory about the Hawaii exile and all that was really cool. And I definitely appreciate what went into the album. Lot of really cool moments.

But it's pretentious as fuck. And nowhere near his best album.

I had the same reaction of distaste when the videos to Power and Runaway dropped. 'How pretentious could you be? Making a hip-hop video about ballet? Another one with Renaissance imagery? GTFOH'

But couldn't the same be said of hip-hop fans who didn't like De la or The Roots or even Tribe for being 'arty' when hip-hop was more meat and potatoes?

BTW, I don't know why I'm trying to die on this hill. I didn't listen to the album for the longest and don't listen to it often. Must be happy to be back on OKP talking music. Ha!

My only counter to that argument would be that De La et al were significantly more talented and interesting. Haha.

And to be clear, I really like MBDTF. It was a grower for me.

I like MBDTF a lot more than any of his albums that have come out since. But it doesn’t compare to the first 3 IMO.

I mean....if anything, College Dropout was the one that was a bit influenced by Tribe and them. And that was a fantastic album.

MBDTF - I don’t know. Someone plays the same piano note for two minutes before Kanye starts warbling all dramatically about how much of a douche bag he is, and clowns are all “this is beyond the constraints of hip hop!” GTFOH. I hated that aspect of that album. Like I said....pretentious. Like it was “above” hip hop or something.

There were some great songs and moments on the album. All that extra stuff and the presentation of it hurt the album to me though.

>RE: De La, the Roots, and Tribe had the meat and potatoes too

>I like MBDTF a lot more than any of his albums that have come
>out since. But it doesn’t compare to the first 3 IMO.
>
>I mean....if anything, College Dropout was the one that was a
>bit influenced by Tribe and them. And that was a fantastic
>album.
>
>MBDTF - I don’t know. Someone plays the same piano note for
>two minutes before Kanye starts warbling all dramatically
>about how much of a douche bag he is, and clowns are all
>“this is beyond the constraints of hip hop!” GTFOH. I
>hated that aspect of that album. Like I said....pretentious.
>Like it was “above” hip hop or something.
>
>There were some great songs and moments on the album. All
>that extra stuff and the presentation of it hurt the album to
>me though.

Yea totally agreed. Someone noted that Late Registration stretched the limits of hip-hop and I agree, but on that album he went about it wayyyyyyy more tastefully and less pretentiously.

That worked too, on the same front.

AFKAP (NERL) once made a post that said that Black music works best as folk art than high art. MBDTF is aiming for high art and it succeeds at that I guess but because it is high art I don't regard it as well as his more traditional albums.

Like you and Brew have been saying the album is a bit of a mess and its reception seemed obnoxious. So much so it took me several years to actually sit down and listen to it.

There are some great moments on it but like you, MBDTF isn't a favorite of Kanye's stuff but it is the best of the second 'phase' of his career.

>Like you and Brew have been saying the album is a bit of a
>mess and its reception seemed obnoxious. So much so it took me
>several years to actually sit down and listen to it.

... never appreciated it (beyond a couple of tracks) until like 3 or 4 years later.

I knew after 808s he'd never be the same, even going back to his rap roots. Once you make an album like that you're kinda saying you think you're more talented than you are lol

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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

but I was just railing about it in another post.
But yeah. EnVouge, SWV, Death Cab for Cutie, Shawn Mendes, CocoRosie, Randy Newman... in addition to Nickie, DaBaby, Gucci, Megan Thee... like what are you even going for?

that's a lot of folks.

to me the chance album sounded like trying to recreate late registration era albums. big budget albums were so bloated back then.

i didnt hate the chance album but it definitely needed some trimming.

I don't think it ever really stopped for him though.

He'd had long albums before, but that one was 80 minutes. Overblown production. Janet Jackson AND Ozzy Osborn features. Just too much.

i had that cd and i rocked with it. it still has some of my favorite songs but so much filler.

Though I guess some would say "Walking With a Panther," but I feel like that album gets a bad rap.

After going back to basics with "Mama Said..." he got waaaaaay into excess with "14 Shots..." and did way too much. Tried kicking hardcore gangsta shit. Multiple attempts to recreate the success of "Around the Way Girl." And "Crossroads," with its full orchestra is just overblown nonsense.

RZA changed it up and went all out with the instruments to disappointing results (and i liked his Bobby album)

....seems like he just said fuck it and started making lazy doo doo with keyboards

he's way overdoing it on /bandana/. his rapping feels like mahavishnu orchestra-era john mclaughlin guitar solos when it needs to be more like eddie hazel, especially over low-key, soulful madlib beats. he's doing the voice straining/breaking thing way too often, he's rapping in the triplet flow when it's unnecessary and doesn't gel with the beat, and his pocket is weirdly in and out. he's lost his measured delivery in favor of this forced expressiveness and it's not working for me. i think it started with "andrea" from /you only live 2wice/ and he's just kept it going since

Granted the band made some great music in the second part of their career. But like Kanye's MBDTF they completely changed the way they approached their album, the main songwriter seemed to be in the middle of a nervous breakdown, the praise of the album was a bit over the top, and the songs seem to be trying too hard.

And there are strings. (How to Disappear Completely)

I am thinking of Lauren Hill deciding she is a guitarist. Same with B.O.B.

Common discovering Jimmy Hendrix.

Mos Def and his rock band?

Someone mentioned RZA going to live instruments.



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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

At least he was good enough that I never thought, who is that subpar guitar player on this song?

His playing was good. Much better than Lauryn or Dre 3K on their Baroque albums.

The first song on Biggie's Life After Death had the sound effects of the flyover planes. I was like, "Oh snap, they got money now!" That's the first thing I thought of when I read this post.

.

for lack of a better way to describe it, "too deep" or decides to become less commercial.


De La Soul's Buhloone Mindstate was a departure from De La Soul is dead and way less accessible, but it's an amazing album.

Or even Prince deciding to do follow up the monster Purple Rain with Around the World in a Day.

It seems like in both instances the artist knew they were making a smaller less accessible record.

I think artist go wrong when they try to make a BIG artsy record and they think the rules of pop songs don't apply anymore and they can make anything into a pop record.

If that makes sense.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"