I will keep it short. I did a Top 30 Greatest MC's list on another site and I have Black Thought #8 all time... Do you feel this is a fair assessment of his legend giving the overall resume and skills?

Peace

altho Black Thought is #2 all time on my personal list behind Nas

He's in my top 20. Solo artists make up my top 10. My favorite emcees from groups start filling out the 11-20 slots.

BT
3k
Kendrick (at the moment)

werd.

I got at least 8 ahead of him most likely.

Best? Favorite? I have him in the Top 3 with Nas and 3000.

But on an 'objective' top 20 list, I couldn't put him above 10. Like I said, I really like BT and have heard all of his album cuts and a lot of his features and heard him blaze a lot of them. I can't say that about many other MC's on the top 10 list.

I think the main thing that holds him back is that he doesn't have a trait to his MC'ing that is truly original or unique to him. That being said, if you had to rank BT's ability as a lyricist, or technical ability or punch lines, or general consistency he'd probably outrank many people above him on an 'objective' top 20.

To me, the greatest have all done things that were objectively new to hip-hop or offered something truly remarkable and Thought didn't get a chance to do that mostly because of timing. By the time The Roots broke, most of the template for a modern MC had been forged and there wasn't a lot of place to grow within MC-ing.

Maybe he did and my blind spot as it pertains to The Roots keeps me from acknowledging it, but that's my stance on his career.

wanna name those emcees and the new traits they brought to the art form?

FYI -The list of innovations aren’t meant to be definitive. My sense of history may be off, so if you notice something that’s off, list it below.

Rakim – Created a way to instill emotion through his lyrical choices rather than his inflection. Monotone delivery that was distinctive and unique. Seemed to be the mark between Old School MC’s who rapped on top of the beat, and the MC’s of the Golden Age who used lyricism and styles of delivery as a form of instrumentation.

KRS-ONE – To my knowledge the first MC who’s lyrics were chiefly defined by their social awareness.

Nas – Nas obviously used the template of Rakim and Kool G. Rap to create his style, but it could also be argued that he used those innovations better then both MC’s. Amazing storyteller who told stories through his masterful use of detail and points of view rather than the use of plot and character which was normal in hip-hop at the time.

Jay-Z – Out of all of the top 10, Jay is the best hit-maker, which is more remarkable now that I look back because his subject matter was usually explicit or hardcore. Hit making isn’t a skill we normally think of as a trait of an great MC. Some may rightfully say that Jay coasted on his hit making rather than focus on craft and growth as an artist, but it’s remarkable for someone to connect with his audiences over the years.

Notorious BIG – Probably the wittiest MC who seemed to be a master at all aspects of MC’ing. Ccould tell great stories, had great punchlines, could write love and pop songs and had a fire to his songs if he needed to blaze a track.

Kool G. Rap – First ‘hardcore’ MC. Had wicked rhyme schemes which influenced many MC’s down the line like Rakim and Nas.

Big Daddy Kane – Many of the other MC’s didn’t have sex appeal but he did. Also had an amazing set of styles that he skillfully used throughout his albums.

Chuck D – Booming, distinctive voice which, like Cube, could destroy a track like few others. There were a lot of MC’s who rhymed about political reality, but Chuck was the best. He could not only persuade his listeners with the righteousness of his politics but also the force fulness of his passion.

Eminem – He’ll probably always be remembered for being the first White hip-hop star, but is arguably the best MC in terms of lyrical nimbleness and wizardry of all time. His case is hard to argue like Big Daddy Kane because he really only had three great albums before the quality dropped. Also, the public reception of his verbal traits like his voice or also his subject matter was so polarizing that most people’s opinion of him lie on the extremes of love or hate, but his style was original.

Q-tip – His ability to be relatable as an ‘everyman’ was original and unique and influenced many MC’s like Kanye or Mos who had success while having subject matter that reflected Black middle-class life.

Andre 3K – Was as comfortable weaving lyrics involving introspection and curiosity about life while being relatable and engaging. Very witty and had a variety of styles.

2Pac – Not the best lyricist in the sense of his use of the written language but had a way of communicating introspection, depression, aggression, and sexuality in a way that was poetic and deeply affecting. His viewpoint changed profoundly over the course of his career which speaks to his drive to grow as an artist.

I’m starting to wind down, but if I find the energy I’ll come back with more.

I'm not sure they all fit / seem to be reaching on some of these
to fit the original statement you made about the greatest doing bring something
objectively new to hip hop or offering something only unique to them.

I can see the argument on some but not all of them.

Like KRS -- sure.. think most would agree he was the first at trying to "teach"

Rakim -- sure.. created a more in depth flow that changed the way everyone would rhyme

Chuck -- sure.. if not the first, definitely most focused, in regard to politics as content

Nas - this one is interesting. I agree about him using perspective, and point of view and that being one of his stronger traits which include many. Maybe not the first though. "...broken glass, everywhere... " immediately comes to mind when I think of tales of the streets with one foot out reporting on the one foot in.

So I see what you're trying to get at and I agree for the most part
about the descriptions of them all but I could say those things about a number of emcees not included or could do a matching test and probably match some names listed with descriptions used for others.

2Pac's description could've been the description for Q-Tip. Coulda been the same one for 3Stacks minus the not the best lyricist part.

Biggie's could've been used for Jay probably.
3Stacks' could've been used for Nas probably.

about Black Thought - I see what you're saying about him..
I agree. I just feel like he's so damn good that there's gotta be something we could come up with in the same way we talk about other emcees lol.

good convo here!

In that his best trait is that his work is done at a consistent, high level. That's if he's dropping punchlines or being introspective or making a love song or whatever it's going to be dope. He's good at everything which is a form of greatness in itself.

the thing that makes Black Thought so great is that it's been almost 24 years since organix came out, and he's still dropping verses that are on top 10 verses of the year lists, and every verse he drops is ridiculous. there are no periods where Black Thought fell off, plus Black Thought and KRS are the two best live emcees ever, imho.

and always has a top 10 verse of the year...

there's NO QUESTION... he's the greatest ever LIVE.

and him and quest told Jay... you wanna be considered one of the best...
you gotta step your live game up.

Jay is great live too.
uses a band, no backing vocals. and probably wouldn't even need Bleek to hype.
I think Jay just loves Bleek and Bleek's been loyal as fuck when
some could say that maybe he could've gotten salty at some point when Jay
was blowing and others in Roc were passing Bleek by.

but back to BT -- def the best to ever do it LIVE.
I've never been more impressed by an emcee's command of the crowd.
His breath control. His ability to keep 30 - 40 songs in his head at a time.

crazy.

Because what you said really is the proverbial tip of the iceberg with Jay.

Nobody else balanced such a wide array of styles from a musical and content perspective so consistently at such a high level.

Some might criticize his overall arc from a lyrical standpoint but again, he embodies a particular balance that I think is important. If people just wanted hot sixteens over breakbeats, hip hop would never have progressed beyond that point.

I can’t see another MC with so much success complete such a balancing act. Pleasing multiple masters is difficult and to do it so well for so long is truly remarkable. We can critique his album consistency and whatnot but even after we trim the fat there’s a staggering amount of great material in his catalog and the range of styles and sounds is impressive. Further, while many have pointed to his access to the best producers money can buy it’s arguable that he’s proven to get the best out of them as much as they’ve gotten the best out of him.

-No rapper has consistently adapted to Timbaland’s quirks the way Jay has. Most rappers tend to gravitate toward Tim’s more pedestrian material, but each of Jay’s selections has been challenging and Jay’s hit several home runs some of Tim’s quirkier work
-He really does have some truly magical moments with Pharell.

-The Ye & Just portion of his catalog is obviously where his bread is buttered and while that section holds some perquisite standards, there are some joints in that mix like Encore that stand out as left of center. Even a joint like Run This Town is pretty off kilter. You can point to the Rhianna hook and Ye and call this a formulaic song but there’s nothing formulaic about that sample. There’s nothing top 40 about that sample. Gone? You kidding me? As a pop single?

-He’ll get flack for something as Standard as New York or syrupy as Forever Young, but that same damn album has DOA, So Ambitious and Run This Town. That album had some very left of center standouts.
-Hard Knock Life might seem like an obvious hit but that joint was risky as hell in a post-Bad Boy era where DMX was killing it with a grimier image.

-99 problems? Who else makes such an old school song work on that level in the Nelly era?

He gets so much flack for being too pop or whatever but his creative choices have consisted of a lot of off kilter beats that aren’t terribly easy to pull off. Everyone else is taking stock club joints from the Neptunes and Jay is doing Change Clothes and Excuse Me Miss.
People say he owes his success to the void left by Pac & Big and perhaps there’s some truth to that, but it’s hard to argue with the quality and consistency of the material itself.

Hell I bet if those two lived and Jay wound up with the same catalog the worst case scenario is many would be talking about Jay as the underrated creative visionary living in their shadow. He may or may not have gained the same stature but if the material was unchanged he be viewed much more favorably.

and I don't believe the shit about if Big didn't die...
Jay wouldn't have gotten to the levels he reached.

Ask Clark Kent, shit if somebody woulda asked Big when he was alive...
he woulda told ya.... he thought Jay was nicer than him.

In this particular case, Jay didn't just pay money to get the hottest producers ... he brought these two previous unknowns to be in-house ROC producers ... THEN they became great.

So Jay deserves *credit* for this rather than the "he's got the best producers money can buy" critique you mentioned.


>-The Ye & Just portion of his catalog is obviously where his
>bread is buttered and while that section holds some perquisite
>standards, there are some joints in that mix like Encore that
>stand out as left of center. Even a joint like Run This Town
>is pretty off kilter. You can point to the Rhianna hook and Ye
>and call this a formulaic song but there’s nothing formulaic
>about that sample. There’s nothing top 40 about that sample.
>Gone? You kidding me? As a pop single?

i'll keep it short, too.

(the same "top 10" of us respond to this post once a month)

He's a personal favorite, but he is much further down my list than he should be. I think he's probably one of the greatest lyricists ever, but I have other rappers ahead of him in my list.

There is a bunch of dudes like this. Lord Finesse is one that comes to mind. He's terribly underrated.

He's probably the only introvert on that list or at least the only one with a guarded persona. So the outsized types of personas that seeps into the lyrics of the top 10 or 20 he lacks.

It's what will make him perpetually under the radar or underrated. He seems to like that type of reputation, so I doubt he's fazed by heads who sleep on him.

On an a pure artistic and technical level he's one of the best to ever do it and the fact that his output is still at a high level after nearly 30 years is amazing.

His lack of notoriety could also be because he's part of a group and a live group at that. The style of hip-hop The Roots make is so unique and distinct, I have a hard time comparing their music to other groups. It leads me to discount The Roots because it's more effort to account for the difference in approaches between their live based music and the traditional way of making hip-hop. I know The Roots use a lot of sampling and processing on their albums but I need to really listen to The Roots' catalog again and parse out my thoughts.

It's just that he's never carried it all by himself. He's in a band where the drummer is the star, at least to most people. He started out with a rhyme partner. Ever since Phrenology he's held it down with a little help from Dice and a couple of other guys. He's so impressive and nasty on the mic that he intimidates his peers. Therefore, he only has a handful of guest spots. And his biggest hit is most known for the guest vocalist.

He just has very little star power. A je ne sais situation.

Tell me this. If you were a rapper, there's almost no point of putting Thought on your record. He's going to come with some ridiculous bars and that laid back Philly flow that makes it all seem effortless, and make you look like a fool. You can try to come better, but everyone knows he's a monster. Except that he doesn't move the needle economically. Cats that love him and The Roots love them, but they have never been the biggest sellers of records.

And then it comes to you. When anyone listens to the lyrics of what this dude says, you realize his calm and deliberate delivery are part of the reason he's not seen as dope as he is. His flow very rarely gets particularly hyper, and the dude is just the most consistent emcee of all time. Every verse you know EXACTLY what you're getting, and he never fails to deliver. He's a beast with almost no signature wins. However, he's undefeated. As much as I love this cat, I can't think of any of his verses. He's so superlative that it's unremarkable.

And now that I think of it, I hate to actually say this, but I think that the band holds him back just a little. He very rarely gets to rock over any of the great producers of the day. And that's no slight to the band, it's just a lack of diversity in sound. I don't know of any song with him over a Primo/Pete Rock/Dr. Dre/Timbaland/whoever's hot beat. The closest thing I can think of is Live at the PJ's by the X-Ecutioners. His solo would have solidified him as a top whatever rapper, but was not to be. It's shame, because his Mona Lisa is incredible.

Sorry I really dont get the whole argument of "oh he is in a group etc" . How is BT being a member of the Roots any different than Jay Z working with exe. producers, track producers and having guest appearances on his albums??

People acting like the Roots are Wu tang with a bunch of different MCs putting in verses... BT has put out enough material and yes he has worked with Pete Rock

>
>Sorry I really dont get the whole argument of "oh he is in a
>group etc" . How is BT being a member of the Roots any
>different than Jay Z working with exe. producers, track
>producers and having guest appearances on his albums??
>
>People acting like the Roots are Wu tang with a bunch of
>different MCs putting in verses... BT has put out enough
>material and yes he has worked with Pete Rock
>
It's just that he hasn't rocked with a variety of producers like that. Most of his material is with his group. You kind of made my point. A rapper like Jay-Z has tracks with a variety of producers on every album. That's the point I was making. And Black Thought just doesn't get to rhyme with many of his peers. It's not like he has a whole bunch of guest spots for an emcee with over 20 years in the game. EDIT: The other thing is that a lot of times, the group has the guest spot, and he's rhyming over the same soundscape that we're used to. Guru's "Hold Your Fist" is a prime example of that. Even though it knocks, and Thought absolutely kills it, it's pretty much still a Roots song with Guru.

And I completely forgot about the Pete Rock track. I just had Soul Survivor in the car a couple of weeks. I almost never listen to that song.

Nas
Andre 3000
Thought

up....and the devil laughs..




http://soundcloud.com/rayandersonjr

Distortion to static and section are the only BT verses I can recite

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