On the 7th anniversary of his passing (RIP)
I ask myself when exactly did the "Guru is wack" BS start?
was it hipster blogs, pitchfork, youtube comments, or some culture vultures?
I never, ever, EVER heard "Guru sucks" during GangStarr's heyday
most heads were anywhere from GS fanatics to "they cool, they aight"
but never once heard outright "nah gangstarr sucks, guru's trash"
NEVER
not in magazines, radio shows, barbershops, etc
so who's gonna take the weight? (c)

I don't know if it can be called "hate", but the perceived fall off was when he started rockin with some cat named Solar....

it's happened to the greatest (Kane, LL, Cube, Nas, Chuck D, etc)
But even during their most awful records
cats wasn't like "Kane's always been wack" like they do with Guru

So sometime in the early 2000's.

someone said that the other day on here
I swear that was the first time I heard or even thought of the possibility of Guru being wack

....there were a few people here on that shit for some reason ..they were very vocal about it, but they didn't run in any kind of numbers

Guru was dope and no, Premier didn't carry him. Only thing I hold against Guru is him fucking with Solar and that track he did on the menace II society soundtrack. Other than that, baldhead slick was official.

Never cared for him. His voice is cool but his rhymes often seem contrived and corny. He takes pauses in places that seem forced at times.

Also, I would argue that the popularity of lemonade has fallen a great deal over the years, and its status as a popular beverage is very much in question.

>Never cared for him. His voice is cool but his rhymes often
>seem contrived and corny. He takes pauses in places that seem
>forced at times.
>
>Also, I would argue that the popularity of lemonade has fallen
>a great deal over the years, and its status as a popular
>beverage is very much in question.


*stands and claps*


Ever since that line, I honestly couldn't rock with dude.

and it still is

you can tell them a mile away

cuz they underetimate/underappreciate

guru
das
treach
red and meth

era. Guru was carrying the group in the beginning, but he started to change around the time when those two projects came out, while Primo ascended to greatness. The projects I mentioned feature a Guru who is already comfortable in his status. He didn't feel like he had much to prove as a lyricist. He was content just to match the vibe of the music.

I don't think Guru can be fully appreciated by a person who didn't hear "Step In The Arena" when it first dropped. I think that's when he peaked as an mc.

Daily Operation, Hard to Earn and Moment of Truth did happen.

You've said some suspect ass shit recently bro

Lol

in Hip Hop history, I call bollocks on him peaking in "91. He went to places on that album that very few emcees-or grown ass men for that matter-will allow themselves to, and he stood toe to toe with some of the best that ever did it. It's even easier to appreciate now than it was then, and that was during the beginnings of the glistening nigger era.

>in Hip Hop history, I call bollocks on him peaking in "91. He
>went to places on that album that very few emcees-or grown ass
>men for that matter-will allow themselves to, and he stood toe
>to toe with some of the best that ever did it. It's even
>easier to appreciate now than it was then, and that was during
>the beginnings of the glistening nigger era.
>

Step In The Arena, his pen was iller too. Go back and listen to it, he's doing more on the mic.
Moment of Truth has that same slightly lethargic rhyme style for the whole album, no variation. Moment of Truth has better beats, and his voice is eq-ed better. But he's not rapping better imo.
Manifest is the first song we heard from dude. So it's lame to act like he discovered grown man rap in 1998, he had been doing that. It was just more refreshing to hear that in 98, because everything had become so commercialized.

and it's quite noticable. He was no longer the guy looking for props, he was an elder statesman clearing a path. There was more urgency and purpose on MoT. His previous albums had more bite, no doubt. But his verse on Above the Clouds had people thinking Deck wrote his verse, and you can argue it not even being his best on the album.

>more bite, no doubt. But his verse on Above the Clouds had
>people thinking Deck wrote his verse, and you can argue it not
>even being his best on the album.


Deck may be the GOAT "single verse on a track" MC.. and Above The Clouds is one of Decks BEST verses ever.. and I still can't decide who had the better verse between him and Guru.. It's also one of Premier's best productions.. and I agree, Guru rhymes at the same level or possibly even better throughout MOT..

Now, if you heard some of the stuff he did with Solar or whatever his name was, you can tell Guru wasn't trying that hard.. like a 30% Guru effort.. Does any Gang Starr fan count that against him?? NO

He just had better production, and better engineering.

People talking real disrespectful about Guru on here.

But I've come to realize all hip-hop opinions are suspect on the internet. I see shit I have never heard in real life.

And most of these opinions come from weirdos in the middle of nowhere.

I'll never understand the way people struggle to reconcile the notion that literally everyone in every medium at every level has detractors.

There's not a single artist that has ever existed whose work was beloved by everyone. The most successful, popular and enduring artists in history still have people who think their work is terrible.

It's because music is art and art is subjective.

Guru just isn't all that great from a technical standpoint. As an MC he's mediocre on every front and does not rate well when viewed against his peers, forebears, or even those who came after.

And yet... He's *Great*, because this isn't an either/or proposition. He has legit classics to his name and a formidable catalog. He's as influential as anyone from his generation and that includes artists with greater mainstream presence. GS is a pantheon-level group by any objective metric.

That doesn't mean that Guru somehow lacks weaknesses. Personally I think he's very mediocre and the sum of GS is far greater that the whole of Guru's individual part. A song can be memorable and stand the test of time while aspects of it are mediocre from a technical standpoint.

IMO Guru is an outlier in this regard. The biggest issue I see with that is people don't want to hear nuanced criticism. You can love him exactly as he is and think he's super dope with no flaw in his game and that's all good.

Personally I think he's a mediocre rapper who maxed out his potential but also owned the fuck out of his lane and influenced generations beyond his own and I don't see a problem with that. I can think of technically superior mc's in various categories who can't approach his legacy.

I just don't think it's binary. Its not merely wack or dope, good or bad. Guru's several shades of Gray IMO.

There is a big difference in what you said and "Guru is wack".

I think the post is asking when people just started saying Guru is wack as if he isn't a legend with classics and the MC of one of the greatest hip-hop groups ever.

As far as the criticism of Guru in a historical context I noticed that people back in the 90's, including myself, would say things like Guru was being carried by Premier and that's he's 'mediocre', but I would also notice that he had content and had that iconic voice. He stepped out on his own and made a pretty good project with the Jazzmatazz series, so he definitely had creative talent.

That being said, I think most heads appreciated Guru for what he was, an MC that made some great moments over great music. For as much as folks criticize his lyrical talents, I don't think a lot of the songs Gangstarr created would sound the same or have the same chemistry unless Guru were on those songs. Heads' relationship with him was similar to that of someone to their close family. They might be aware of their flaws, but damn if an outsider is gonna point them out.

I didn't look at the post the OP mentioned, but if folks straight out dissed Guru without keeping his career in context, that seems new. At least for around here.

he just rarely had cadences and his voice was dull

Well done and Thank you.


I like Guru as an MC, but I've always thought that his flow was quirky(in a bad way) and his rhymes were very bland.

He never said a rhyme that I felt I couldn't out do.

To me, Premo is the reason that Guru is ultimately able to be who he eventually became as far as his respected place in hiphop history.


But regarding the original post/question, I'm not aware of many people saying that Guru is wack.


I certainly don't think that he was wack by any means but i'll never be able to say that he was a great rapper.


To me, he's always been "good enough".



peace
HIM
www.PlazaMelodic.com
"Lo-Fi Holiday" Now Available!!
https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/lo-fi-holiday/id985794237
https://plazamelodic.bandcamp.com/album/lo-fi-holiday
http://soundcloud.com/beatroom88

Primo proved he didn't NEED Guru, but while Jazzmatazz was cool, Guru wasn't able to do the same.

I legit never heard anything like this

I'm from NYC and plenty of people I knew thought Jeru was nicer. Doesn't mean Guru wasn't dope, but Jeru just seemed to have a little more.

I've never heard someone say they didn't like Guru in light of the work Primo did with Guru.

No one copped Moment of Truth and said "yo I wish this was Jeru instead of Guru"

>I'm from NYC and plenty of people I knew thought Jeru was
>nicer. Doesn't mean Guru wasn't dope, but Jeru just seemed to
>have a little more.

Honestly...

The post asked when people starting saying Guru was wack and he responded with "Jeru being better made things messy".

I responded saying that I never have heard anyone saying Guru was wack due to the fact they felt Jeru was better.

And then you both just simply reply "Jeru was better."

I feel like I'm talking to a fucking wall in this place sometimes.

Please inform me when people started saying Guru was wack and they wish Jeru was in Gang Starr instead of him.

People's opinions on Jeru had zero impact on their opinion on Guru.

But if you want to go the Guru vs Jeru route which I wasn't insinuating, I'm sure there are people that like Hard To Earn more than Sun Rises and Moment of Truth is easily better than Wrath of the Math. Those are all full Primo productions and regardless if you think Jeru is the better technical MC, Guru knows how to craft songs better based on those two albums alone. We can then add in the other Gang Starr albums to Guru's belt which contains 2 more classics. And then to be fair we could compare their work without Primo...and Guru wins that as well off of Street Soul alone.

Yeah I know there were always opinions of Jazzmatazz and non primo tracks but the Guru is wack shit started for real with Solar.

his actual rapping.

having seen some of that behavior first hand, i get it.

That wasn't the Guru we knew, that was something else. And we're not even talking artistic progression or change.

As far as 'Guru is Wack', this board is really the only place I've heard that. If you want to say he was overshadowed by Premier's production, his rhymes were average or above, or he got over on his monotone voice, fine (I don't believe any of those arguments, but I'll allow them). But to call the MC of one of the greatest hip hop groups wack is asinine.

Allow me to add mine:

Jeru the Damaja is wack. Very wack. I would not argue this with anyone.

Guru is not that great at rapping but he DID make great music. This is not something that is extremely rare, so I'm not sure why it constitutes a controversy

I love Jazzamatazz.

period.

GURU is the man and I love his and Gangstarr's music, classic material. It was around 1994 when I started hearing other rappers rap of Primo's beats: Nas NY State of Mind, Jeru on Come Clean, KRS on the Boom Bap album, then Rappers R N Danger and MCs act like they don't know...

1994-1998 I suppose. When Moment of Truth came out in 1998 I think it seemed Guru was doing some pretty basic rhymes compared to everyone else that Primo had collaborated with (except Group Home)

As he put it himself, It's Mostly the Voice. And he had one of the best voices in rap, and put that with some of the best beats in rap and together they made a tonne of classic music. Dope beats and a dope voice. Sometimes on Moment of Truth though some of the rhymes sounded like he might not have put too much effort into it.

In saying that I don't want to hear Guru trying to rap big words and technical for instance like Pharoahe Monch. He had his own slow monotone, old school style. I suppose he kind of took an old rapping style and brought it along with him through into the late 90s 2000s and didn't feel the need to go all superscientifical with it. He kept it real to his own style.

Another thing about it was you could understand everything he said, right there and then. Which is cool too. It didn't require a deep analysis for instance like Kendrick's latest album.

Jk. It's outrageous to say Guru wasn't nice more revisionist rap history

I think you heard Guru is wack like twice and just ran with it.

There is no WIDESPREAD Guru is wack movement.

There just isn't.

______________________________________________________________________________

cscpov.blogspot.com

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"

I aint EVER heard that shit til TODAY.


Even HE said 'It's mostly the voice'...so even him beaing wack TRIED to become a 'thing', he deaded that shit decades before it began on some John Connor/Terminator

.

It seemed like everyone pretty much recognized that Guru was a serviceable emcee. In fact, he got better as time went on, but during Gang Starr's heyday, he was alright, not wack and not that dope.

.