because everybody did everything BUT keep it real

music is entertainment
rap music was party and entertainment music
all of a sudden, it wasn't fun to party no more?
you had to be street certified and have a glock and be ready to fight
and kill and hold down the block at a moments notice?
it's like, what were the tenants of keepin' it real?
stay true to yourself?
half of these mcs were boring
all they did was buy timbs and smoke weed all day and talk to
chicken head bitches
how exciting was that?
rap wasn't even that fully on jiggy mode
to be tryin' to keep shit real
i don'† know about you
but if i'm from the projects
i really don't want to hear about project shit
i want to escape
take me to a better reality

i don't know when or how
but a shift occured to wear rap had to be autobiographical
instead of fun
and that put a different type of pressure on artists
not a good pressure i may add

i think keep it real was pushback from ny area mcs against the west coast gangsta rap
to reclaim some attention and shine, but it went horribly awry

i agree with u


>i don'† know about you
>but if i'm from the projects
>i really don't want to hear about project shit
>i want to escape
>take me to a better reality

it was suburban whites buying it mostly... and thats a fact. it was a money grab. black folks gotta sell stereotypical images to be successful in entertainment by and large


>i think keep it real was pushback from ny area mcs against the
>west coast gangsta rap
>to reclaim some attention and shine, but it went horribly
>awry

thats part of it but it just what record companies were signing and releasing

>it was suburban whites buying it mostly... and thats a fact.
>it was a money grab. black folks gotta sell stereotypical
>images to be successful in entertainment by and large
>

Seen this mentioned a lot and I agree with you, but I wonder what music black people were buying at the time?

But the break seemed to be based on two pillars of tradition in hip-hop. That hip-hop was party music, but it was done to uplift the spirits, minds, and consciousness of the people.

Granted that battle had existed ever since hip-hop began, but by the early 90's, there was real money invested in hip-hop and people with a great deal of influence over their fans. So, the keep it real folks like KRS and Rakim and to a degree Nas wanted to keep making money, while making a stand for consciousness, while the jiggy folks, like you said, didn't want to make music which regurgitated the real desperation around them.

Granted more people like to party than take in music for its intellectual merits, so the battle was an uphill one from the start for the keep it real MC's.

And it didn't help that for a lot of the 'keep it real' acts, their music simply wasn't as fun or engaging as the jiggy folks.

For every Nas, Mobb Deep or acts like The Roots, there were a bunch of cookie-cutter cats with Timbos and hoodies, who were in effect posing because their A&R thought their image would sell more records.

The best acts were able to offer something to both sides, but in the end everyone lost whether you look at the uselessness of the battle or the fact that 2pac and Biggie's death was a result of the tension to a great degree.

>The best acts were able to offer something to both sides, but
>in the end everyone lost whether you look at the uselessness
>of the battle or the fact that 2pac and Biggie's death was a
>result of the tension to a great degree.

I personally like the sound of the "keep it real"-era more than both the west-coast gangsta rap AND Vanilla Ice/hammer/Young MC stuff it "rebelled" against. I also like it more than the Puffy/No Limit/Cash Money era that followed. Considering that "Keep it real" was NEVER as successful or influential on the stuff that followed (unless you live in some bizarro-world were Rawkus/Fondle 'em/"indie"-stuff (which I agree often sounded dull) actually REALLY mattered in terms of shaping the sound of hip-hop as a whole) as less "keep it real"-stuff was, this seems like a non-issue to me. I'm grateful for the music Gang Starr, Wu, bootcamp, D.I.T.C. and otehr "keep it real"-type crews did in their prime.

There was some garbage too but so what? We are talking about a few years before Puffy and co took over with their party sounds and commercially successful rap never sounded "Keep it real" anymore after that. Those years were great IMO and if the artists were fuelled by a "keep it real"-attitude and it helped them create the music they did, it strike me as a good thing since I like the music...

https://vimeo.com/150891577

....the keep it real era of 93-95 was actually a very good time for hip hop ...sure there was some corny shit out there, but you don't have to listen to that stuff

not just in music
but in access to information and entertainment in general.

but it killed radio worse than bootlegging, satellite or streaming ever could/would.

now everyone's payola-ed out.

got released when all time classic singles and albums were being released on the regular.

Of course there's always been wack shit. I specifically remember hating Domino, Paper Boy, and that def jam "horrorcore" money grab around that time.

But the music was at its peak during that time. Both coasts were killing it, Outkast blew everyone away, Scarface was in his prime, Common released a classic.

The keep it real era was the best and worst thing to happen to Hip Hop. The best was the prolific output I just mentioned, and the worst was allowing suburban herbs to think they were down because they listened to Black Moon and Hieroglyphics. They were the poisoned seed that divided and conquered the culture with the backpacker/jiggy bullshit. Both camps put out hot music (Biggie and Big Pun mastered both lanes) but these clowns were on some holier than thou, FOH. They were the worst thing to happen to Hip Hop. Screaming "independent as fuck!" when Rupert Murdoch's son ran Rawkus.

I miss creativity in my rap. You look at those first three Busta Rhymes albums. Dude was just trying stuff and pushing the envelope. I loved that stuff. Fast forward and he's talking about how hard and street he is and will bust someone's head open. SMH. I like when I have artists I can go to for street reality rap and some for mental escape type rap. Redman fit the bill for this as well. He was hood but creative with his music. Creativity should always be most important for an artist in my option.

yes.

It was tragic when the UMC's changed from "fruits of nature" to "unleashed"


*sheds tears*

even in Woohah, one of the lines was "bussin yo
shit makin you bleeeeeed" lol... but you're right
about him having a more creative approach to it
back in the day. I miss that too.

>you had to be street certified and have a glock and be ready
>to fight
>and kill and hold down the block at a moments notice?

see: 50 Cent
basically had gangsta showtunes
what was that Joe Corn said... something like "sociopathic smooth jazz"

when the '90s turned into the '00s, shit got real corny w/the whole "let's party to some bullshit" vibe

you ain't had no more Heavy Ds (pause), no Big Daddy Kanes, or the like out there, there was a lot less "fuck that bullshit over there, this is how we roll" regardless of the way the music sounded going on. straight consolidation and eroding regionalism

it's kind of how I fear what Biggie's music might have turned into had he lived. he was straddling that line, but uniquely talented to make it "not matter"

people that followed him didn't have that same talent.

I think when the '00s turned into the '10s, that started to reverse. 13Rose is on point with the "creativity" comment

- and thought the same or similar...

first off Rubble Kings is a great documentary showing the origins of hip-hop....everyone should peep

but word hip-hop came out of a peace movement after Bronx gangs killed a cat (forget his name) who was trying to organize peace and have the gangs come together (almost just like that scene from the Warriors with Osirus)

so after dude was killed cats started coming together and having parties - thus evolved hip-hop....

so basically hip-hop went from street ngas coming together back to street ngas who now have money.....

so you could argue that the street element has always been there from day 1 even if cats weren't talking about it early on....it's not like it came from middle school kids who had nothing to do.....has always been street - but yes, an alternative to street life....which technically for rappers it still is I guess...so yeah....what really is keeping it real in that context??

May he rest in peace.

My boy Shan directed that doc and my brother Saviour was the art director on it, so I'm very proud of it on a personal level.

...

would be great to see a doc starting at this time period going all the way up to current day...

I love NWA and Dre production during that era. It created a monster that's never gone away No Limit, Cash Money, Lil john, Hyphy, Trap...

Problem with all this the art has been push to the very back and gets little attention. Phife's should be on a George Harrison level but he's not gonna get that kinda love.

From NWA to the Death Row stuff to Eminem to 50 Cent....Dre basically always went for the shock value and controversy in how he presented and pushed his music. Couldn't even get the album with Rakim done because of it, smh.

>Couldn't even get the
>album with Rakim done because of it, smh.

Was Rakim's sense of consciousness the reason his album with Dre was shelved?

I heard that there were 'creative differences', but the reason behind those differences was never clear.

raps on the album and Rakim didn't feel like starting beefs with other rappers in his music.


I read that interview a while ago....so you'll just have to take my word for it....been a minute since I read it.

in this RBMA interview from 2013


at the point


1:15:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qx9LOQ9CX0


"but as far as me and Dre - once we got together - we started realizing how different we was - nahmean? To try to get on the same page was more complicated than we thought. Like, a beat come on - we listening to the beat - I'm already seeing what I'm gonna do - but then Dre might go: "yo, I want you to do such and such on this one." and I'm like "c'mon Dre, been there did that already, man" - nahmean?

but we started realizing that you know it was like night and day. Dre's formula you know - "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Dre loved - well at that point he was loving gangsta rappers-rappers beefin' - nahmean? At that point I figured: I did that already -
it was time to move on and just make good music.

So you know every time we sit down - a beat would come on - start listening to the beat - "what you want to do, Dre?" "yo, just talk (I can curse, right?) talk shit on this one." (wow) you nahmean?

and I also felt like, I didn't really have to beef with my peers. Nahmean? He wanted me to kinda set it off and brag about who I was and what I did. But at that point I felt like they already know, man, and for me to brag about it would take points away from - nahmean - what I did and what I'm doing.

But um you know, I'm glad that he holla'd at me you know? and I'm glad that he had a vision with me in mind - nahmean? I thanked him for that - but we just couldn't find a medium where he was happy and I was happy with either the direction or the topic or what he wanted me to say to a certain beat or what it was....


there's also a Marley Marl RBMA from 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKEGiHqEyqA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewz-inU5eJo

Backs up what was typed earlier in the post.

Rakim's account makes sense. For as great as Dre's music was, he only was successful selling Gangsta / shock music. The Aftermath album was more in the vein of what a Rakim album could have sounded like. That album didn't sell the numbers that Dre's other hit albums sold. Obviously, Dre wanted something different.

yes

And even when Dre's bullshit is well known, he gets props as this legend...one could argue he started the dumbing down/break down of Hip Hop and it's original tenants...but no one cares...

Without it we probably wouldn't have songs like "The Message" or rappers like KRS, Rakim, Nas etc, but the "reality raps" of people like NWA did just what many already stated. It became a gimmick to be violent and really "keeping it real" kind of turned into backpack rap and became less popular. It's cool when done right because if rap had stayed all party like disco it probably would have been the fad people thought it was and burned out. If Public Enemy were keeping it real is that really a bad thing?

>If Public Enemy were keeping it real is that
>really a bad thing?


The underlying theme of this post is sort of "what had (has?) the power to 'change the game'?"


Obviously (no matter how street hip-hop was when it started) hip-hop was big on the partying thing for a while then even when Run DMC and then Rakim and Public Enemy were kind of "hard", a Native Tongues creative thing sort of got big for a while.


but....


since the dust has cleared, it seems the "hard" and "negative" stuff was able to last and dominate more than the partying and creative stuff.

If they all could have had a moderate amount of pull, then there would be no problem, but now, it seems people were too "inclined" to go the "negative" and "hard" route over the partying and creative route, so some of us wish the negative stuff never got there in the first place.

As far as Public Enemy is concerned, their political thing seemingly didn't last as an influence in the face of the negative stuff either.

maybe Snoop was authentic to begin with, 50 was authentic to a degree, but historically more often than not this shit was, is, and will be corny.

Tupac went to art school and wasn't even from the west coast.
Wasn't Prodigy a ballerina?
Rick Ross was a corrections officer!

Most these guys are just corny. Trying to be authentic is dumb and gets dudes caught. Ross has portrayed this super villain to such an extant that people have actually tried to kill him. TI literally ruined his life "keeping it real".

Gangster rappers are corny.

I'm with you 110% on this

No other art click (except perhaps modern country music) is so outwardly anti-imagination, which sucks, because few artforms are as conducive to exploring and unleashing the imagination the way hip-hop can.

just like what you like, and if you don't like something find something you do, or MAKE something you do

all this incessant:

____________ is better than _____________


____________ killed ______________ (when it's obviously still there)

we are squeezing what should be taken for good/pleasure/relief/whatever and talking-headed it to death

where is the *JOY*?

why not talk about what's good, instead of what sucks all the time?

do you realize how nuts it is to talk about someone talking about something? (yes, my response is part of the chain too, that doesn't make it any less crazy)

.. I think that the root of the problem is that hip-hop, perhaps more than any other genre of music, was BORN of competition ("you're wack, I'm the best MC" and all that) so for better or worse, the fans' tendency to reduce the artform to what you describe below is kind of an unavoidable, natural byproduct of hip-hop's origins. Does that make sense ? In my drunken head it does.


>just like what you like, and if you don't like something find
>something you do, or MAKE something you do
>
>all this incessant:
>
>____________ is better than _____________
>
>
>____________ killed ______________ (when it's obviously still
>there)
>
>we are squeezing what should be taken for
>good/pleasure/relief/whatever and talking-headed it to death
>
>where is the *JOY*?
>
>why not talk about what's good, instead of what sucks all the
>time?
>
>do you realize how nuts it is to talk about someone talking
>about something? (yes, my response is part of the chain too,
>that doesn't make it any less crazy)

it got divided between the shiny suit rap and the grimey. I was guilty of choosing sides and likely missed out on some good main stream hip hop.

NY all started sounding the same and eventually got boring. there was some great music, but mos def some cornball stuff too. the creativity took a back seat.

I feel like the west coast went through the same and the south is doing it now. I'm older so I might not be close enough to really see what happening with southern rap music.

the "keep it real" shit didn't hurt west coast rap or southern rap at all.

outside a few ice cube and outkast records

the west and the south dont have anything to measure up to the great NY records

for instance compare the formative records of each area to the formative records of NY

can you compare ice tee to BDP? or rakim? lol

can u compare 2 live crew to anything??

what can u compare the early native tongues to?

EXACTLY

I'm not comparing quality that way. I was comparing how the lack of creativity has happened to everybody.

.

but maybe didn't mean to.

all good.

>outside a few ice cube and outkast records
>
>the west and the south dont have anything to measure up to the
>great NY records
>

LOL!

like raekwon said?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJtGqCyiMOA

if so, he can't be blamed.

he meant what he said.

these other mofos can't (mean what they say).

It's a built in excuse to not respect anything that came before you.

Doug E Fresh & KRS were talking about there being an "old school" in 1988. Doug wasn't dissing, but KRS was boldly telling the old school they needed to make room/step aside. Again, that was 1988. They clearly didn't want to be associated with the stuff that was coming out in the early/mid 80's.

Now older heads get increasingly frustrated with the perceived lack of respect for hip-hop history. But these kids didn't create this dynamic, it's been there for as long as I remember it. You take sampling out of the equation, and there's even less reason to look back.

"no ones from the old school cuz rap on a whole
isn't even twenty years old
50 years down the line we could start this
cuz we'll be the old school artists
and even at that that time I'll say a rhyme...."

...Or should I say we have to blame good music with the wrong content for getting us down that rabbit hole.

The same artists that were talking about keeping it real, gun toting, street/hood certified, shiny suit hating, etc. were the same artists either making that music and dissing others who copied them but made it wack; for example:

M.O.P., they made great music, but all they did was talk about being hardcore, will kill you, them yelling on every song was their motto, and them screaming they were from the grungiest part of NYC and you could get hurt if you came to their block; but since they made good music, so we ignored what they did was what they and others said made others wack (but I'm still a fan).

Biggie, he was the rapper all claimed was going to be the next Big Daddy Kane or the next Scarface but he wasn't really lyrical, he talked about drugs and being from the hood, talked about guns every other verse, he had a big money behind him financially, he did the most commercial/sell out songs ever, the shiny suit stuff and about making tons of money; but NYC loved him and quickly people fell into that trap of liking what they disliked about other rappers doing the same thing.

2Pac, talked about women called them bitches and hoes but then make a song about black women should be respected, he wasn't lyrical at all, he had a simple but likable rhyme flow, he talked about guns, liquor, and smoking all day, talked about how hard he was and how he hated the govt and cops; but everyone loved him and his music.

Ice Cube, another emcee who flipped back & forth between being hardcore and doing commercial songs, talked about black power then doing the most hoodish songs, yeah he had flow & rhymes and then started doing movies as well, but eventually getting dissed by Common put his career in retrospective and after than it seemed like his whole rap career became more comical and him wearing two hats and switching between both when the wind blew (I liked his first two albums and the first Westside Connection album).

Mobb Deep, this is where me being a fan and knowing they are the most oxymoronic of artists of what I usually tell people I don't like or listen to, they talk about being hood, having guns, smoking weed all day, & will kill you and the cops, watch your step or will get hurt and don't come to their old projects, they don't like hoes & bitches but love the women but they don't rhyme or preach anything positive unless it's about making money. I love Havoc & Prodigy music all day but yeah it's what I would diss in a second if somebody else came in trying to copy their style.

These are some great examples of what I think made others capitalize on hip-hop without music good music cause we had respect for artists that so called kept it real.

You probably talked about it before, but that has to be cool. Maybe you should visit NYC more, probably a few decent milfs that love unicorns like you. But don't go to her crib.

>because everybody did everything BUT keep it real
>

lots of people kept it real, but to different things-to themselves, their imagination, their pursuits of free Subway sandwiches, getting out of the bad neighborhoods they lived in, etc.


>music is entertainment

that's a pretty broad stroke, and incorrect, because the first music ever made was created to send messages


>rap music was party and entertainment music

still is


>all of a sudden, it wasn't fun to party no more?

still is


>you had to be street certified and have a glock and be ready
>to fight
>and kill and hold down the block at a moments notice?

yeah


>it's like, what were the tenants of keepin' it real?
>stay true to yourself?

that's "tenets" not "tenants," unless you're talking about people who reside in real keeps


>half of these mcs were boring
>all they did was buy timbs and smoke weed all day and talk to
>chicken head bitches
>how exciting was that?

if you like to buy Timbs, smoke weed all day and talk to chicken head bitches? I'd say very exciting


>rap wasn't even that fully on jiggy mode
>to be tryin' to keep shit real
>i don'† know about you
>but if i'm from the projects
>i really don't want to hear about project shit
>i want to escape
>take me to a better reality
>

there's always been a means to find that stuff without even trying hard, but some folks like to make fucked up decisions and hearing music about making fucked up decisions comforts people


>i don't know when or how
>but a shift occured to wear rap had to be autobiographical
>instead of fun
>and that put a different type of pressure on artists
>not a good pressure i may add
>

you're making an argument about the different ways niggas lie-nobody was partying nonstop either

>i think keep it real was pushback from ny area mcs against the
>west coast gangsta rap
>to reclaim some attention and shine, but it went horribly
>awry
>
>

it's the other way around

First, let me be clear: Biggie was dope-as-fuck.

The problem is that Biggie (and that Bad Boy Player-Thug-Club Banger formula) was so successful that *everyone* wanted to be *like* Big. Jay-Z most notably... he took Big's formula and ran to the top with it.

After Big, everyone was a real street dude that had bars but still got it popping in the cub with models pushing the flyest whips around the world but still be on the block moving those packs and they love their momma.

his albums region-neutral.

I enjoyed seeing the desperation to survive portrayed as strength rather than something/ somewhere traditionally looked down upon. The era to which you refer was a reaction to the conscious movement previously, and I wish that was really depicted in recent biopics that illustrate the rise of gangster rap in the 90's. It seems you are referring to the later emergence of New York rappers responding to the in-ways made by NWA et al, and yes some acts were indeed droning. Yet, if you cant imagine how coming from such an environment(the hood , that is) could warp your mind view to the point where robbing people and poisoning the community seem plausible, yeah those lyrics probably won"t entertain you. To the rest, it's not the ice-pick literally per se, it's really about the frustration that causes the hand holding it to have SO much tension.

I'm not from the hood but it's clear to see that given the amount of emotional and physical suffering affecting under-invested areas would cause a desperation so severe that any way to get out of that environment would be encouraged. Even if those methods are harmful to communities outside of the hood.

Right and exact...also, one point I think you missed is the incredible creativity that came with that rawness...they (Mobb, Wu, Gangstarr, many others) were the perfect storm...too this day I'm not opposed to hearing some gutter/grimey ish if you can deliver it in a creative way....

As great as it was it was the blueprint to awful hip hop. After that everyone was talking about Crystal (sp) and Ice. And it opened the door for a bunch of wack motherfuckers to start rapping about drug dealing....Everyone bit that album...

simple mathematics.