I'm talking every song is a damn 10 to you.

For example, most of us list Illmatic as at least a top 3 hip-hop album yet most of us would say a song like One Time 4 Your Mind is weaker than the rest.

I think in most cases, regardless if the album is a classic or one of our all-time favorites, there are still cuts that we could do without.

I love ATLiens, but if In Due Time would've taken the spot from ET, then I would say the album would be even better.

So the question is, is there a perfect album to you? An album where every joint is an absolute favorite cut?

Peace

Maybe a random film score or something that I liked that didn't have any bad cues, but I can't think of an album released by a practicing musician that didn't have one track I didn't like.

Brilliant album every track is a 10

There's nothing on there that I skip or consider weaker than the others. Just a great album all the way through, including the interludes at the end of the tracks.

>I'm talking every song is a damn 10 to you.
>
>For example, most of us list Illmatic as at least a top 3
>hip-hop album yet most of us would say a song like One Time 4
>Your Mind is weaker than the rest.
>
>I think in most cases, regardless if the album is a classic or
>one of our all-time favorites, there are still cuts that we
>could do without.
>
>I love ATLiens, but if In Due Time would've taken the spot
>from ET, then I would say the album would be even better.
>
>So the question is, is there a perfect album to you? An album
>where every joint is an absolute favorite cut?
>
>Peace

I clicked on this to reply with Atliens. ET too. It's just dope verse on top of dope verse. And it's such a good push play listen. I listened to it again last week. It's crazy to think now that the album was met with apprehension from some cuz it wasn't 100% spcm2. I still think it's crazy that roaches and rats didn't make it even if I can't think of what to take off on its behalf.

That album would be my clear cut number 1.

And while I like Ova Da Wudz (classic Dre verse) and ET...those are the two I would've cut for the other two if I had to make a tough choice.

I just think they're better and would've lifted the album even higher.

Mezzanine

I'll thumbs up songs I would ordinarily give 4 or 5 stars to. The only album I've given a thumbs up to every song is The Low End Theory. The next closest is Illmatic (all but one thumbs up, One Time For Your Mind). Below The Heavens and Revolver each have all thumbs up except once thumbs WAY down (Juicen Dranks and Yellow Submarine, respectively).

My favorite Dylan album and every song is fucking great, no skips, it's a perfect album to me.

I do skip Rainy Day though...novelty song to me.

LOVE everything else.

I take Highway 61 and Freewheelin' over Blonde On Blonde. Bob's catalog is ridiculous.

Below the Heavens is close (as mentioned, Juicen Dranks)

yes yes...

Yep, even Baby Be Mine and The Girl Is Mine
whole album is 10's to me

That straight out the microwave, no blowing on it, take a bite and melt your tongue off

and I've never, ever understood the hate for it.

I agree that it's not a perfect fit sound-wise compared to most of the rest of the tracks. But christ - what a great song.

...

I love it.

where we got to see him groove to it and feel
the music a bit, I think ppl would fool with
it as much the rest.

yes....

Mecca And The Soul Brother! One of the first albums I thought of as my favorite from start to finish along with Great Adventures Of Slick Rick, Step In The Arena & Stunts, Blunts by Diamond D.

Agreed on Thriller. I gotta throw "Eddie Murphy Comedian" album in their too

Would have to give it more thought but that may be it.

That's one album that I can't listen to any more.

As ignorant as most hip-hop albums are that I love, there's something extra juvenile about that shit lol.

I'm an unabashed west coast rap music fan, with a specific focus on 90s era g-funk/west coast in general. So while in my old age I can certainly acknowledge the juvenile nature of a lot of the lyrics, I take it with a grain of salt and have a nostalgic appreciation for it and mostly recognize it as a sign of the times/subgenre.

That album wowed me based on flow/cadence voice more than anything lyrical, obviously. And production-wise it's top notch in my eyes.

Something like Laughing Stock by Talk Talk, also, where the tone of the album is so consistent you don't want to skip anything.

Smooches.

"Train of Thought"

Resurrection
Doggystyle
Train of Thought

I always loved it but it seems to get better as time goes by.

There are a few albums like that for me.

... it's been a top 10 album in my eyes pretty much since its release but I think I agree. It has aged exceptionally well and I'm always finding news reasons to love it everytime I listen. It's also rare that I listen to one track from it without listening to the entire thing.

Really a timeless, amazing album.


>I always loved it but it seems to get better as time goes
>by.
>
>There are a few albums like that for me.

Is and was a masterpiece from start to finish.

.. being that it was released in 2000, there was PLENTY to listen to at that time. Some would say too much. Haha

Nitpicking of your verbiage aside, yes, definitely the best album of that year IMO and was and still is in pretty heavy rotation.


>Man when that dropped there was nothing else worth listening to
>Is and was a masterpiece from start to finish.

I mean it both ways, odd as that seems on the surface. It's a lot like having a great circle of close friends and then coming up on an gorgeous and engaging new girlfriend. Everyone else can kick rocks for awhile because you're busy getting it in. Why kick it with your boy when you can bang out with this fine specimen before you? Your boys will be there after she's gone.

So I meant it literally in that it *made* everything else essentially dead to me for about a month. Why listen to something else when I have this dope ass RE album that everything else pales against? I'd throw something on and switch to TOT after a few songs. I didn't want to listen to anything else for a good while.

It's obviously figurative in the sense that, yeah, there was some great music available at the time.... it just took awhile to give any of it any real attention because TOT was the dopest thing I'd ever heard at the time.

It's why all the "hyperbole" rants about my passionate jubilance for Blank Face; *EYE* fucking know how the fuck *EYE* feel about something when *EYE* listen to it and *EYE* don't need to measure *MY* fucking reaction against how anyone else feels about it. Feel me?

And put that way, I was probably the same way with TOT.

>
>It's why all the "hyperbole" rants about my passionate
>jubilance for Blank Face; *EYE* fucking know how the fuck
>*EYE* feel about something when *EYE* listen to it and *EYE*
>don't need to measure *MY* fucking reaction against how anyone
>else feels about it. Feel me?


"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

See, the way you pruned the statements prior to that one perfectly illustrates your little context allergy.

Oh, and I love how you called me “the” troll earlier, as opposed to “a” troll, or, accurately and specifically, that I was troll(ing) *Anonymous*.

This is particularly amusing since, yet again, I’ve actually contributed thoughts to the thread that are on topic even as I trolled the troll…. While your presence in here, once again, is solely to troll me as you offer zero input on the subject at hand.

I don’t see you interacting with anyone but me and that interaction is exclusively antagonistic, which makes you the only guy in the room who qualifies as “the” troll.

Have a nice day my new hip hugging hippie. I’m sure I’ll see you again, as usual offering nothing to the subject at hand while trolling me exclusively.

"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

But hey, keep adding more useless entries to a serious thread by the guy you've sworn to protect while adding absolutely nothing to the subject matter.

Great sign of maturity, weirdo.

"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

Illmatic

OK Computer

The first being Edan's Beauty & The Beat.

The second, Toro Y Moi's Underneath The Pine.

and its only 36 minutes.

Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions
Edan - Beauty and the Beat
Cannibal Ox - The Cold Vein
Company Flow - Funcrusher Plus

I'll likely add more later...

more that i just cant think of now.

and Who is Jill Scott? are the only albums I can really play and literally not skip a song for any reason at all.

Another close one for me, but I've never been able to fully get behind Left & Right

If not Kast then Thought and Tip

But they left his background vocals on it as percussion. But honestly I think the solo D version was better suited for the album.

Also, I'll add Illmatic. I don't agree with the common thought that One Time For Your Mind isn't on the same level as the rest of the album.

So many perfect artistic statement.

Here's a couple:
Paul Simon: Rhythm of the Saints
Jimi Hendrix Experience: Are You Experienced
Radiohead: OkComputer & In Rainbow
Common: LWFC

a classic album with all classic cuts/songs you love/are tens. You can really only think of a couple? Very okayplayer of you...

ok buddy...

Dumb thing to argue. Yes, I think that's a fucking incredible song that can stand on its own. Go listen right now on its own and tell me that's not dope. Then I'll tell you you're wrong like it means anything.

And especially in the arc of the album. Looking at albums like a collection of single songs is a false narrative for the ipod generation.

>Dumb thing to argue. Yes, I think that's a fucking incredible
>song that can stand on its own. Go listen right now on its own
>and tell me that's not dope. Then I'll tell you you're wrong
>like it means anything.
>
>And especially in the arc of the album. Looking at albums like
>a collection of single songs is a false narrative for the ipod
>generation.

I'm not looking at albums as a collection of single songs. I NEVER listen to single songs. I'm a huge believer in albums and having all songs play their part. But for the album in question, LWFC, to me, there are some low points that keep it from being perfect and most people feel this way.

Look, you came in the post like a jackass on some "listen to more music" so I responded accordingly.

The point of this post is extreme nitpicking of even classic albums.

Your opinion isn't wrong, but I just don't believe you are looking at the topic the same way the rest of the posters are.

To each his own...

But don't tell me that I need to "explore more music" because that comment is essentially saying the same thing you're bitching about, "you're opinion is wrong".

>Look, you came in the post like a jackass on some "listen to
>more music"

lol. That's YOU. That's what you do.

>To each his own...

lol you don't subscribe to this. stop.

No one cares about shit you have to say bro.

Specifically in regard to what I've had to say to and about you, sunshine.

By multiple people.

Anyhow it's amusing to watch you get a heaping helping of your own stupid gimmick :)

smooches.

That's cool people send you inboxes...

Funny they didn't say shit in the post.

Tells you a lot about the type of people who you're claiming as your champions.

Also tells me a lot about you.

I can only imagine what a fucking worthless piece of shit you must be in real life.

>Also tells me a lot about you.

Please explain how- and what- an unsolicited message sent to my by someone we says anything about me. I'd love to hear your thought process behind that hilarious non sequitur.

>I can only imagine what a fucking worthless piece of shit you
>must be in real life.

Bwuahahahhahah so saith the career message troll in the midst of a tantrum because someone served him a slice of his own antagonistic gimmick.

Hate to say it but....YOU MAD RIGHT NOW!!

Tell me more about your feelings, princess.

If you feel people inboxing you on okayplayer is something to hang your hat on...then, yes that does in fact tell me a lot about your sorry ass life.

>If you feel people inboxing you on okayplayer is something to
>hang your hat on.

Who the fuck said I'm "hanging my hat" on it?

You said nobody cares what I had to say, which was amusing coming from you since I've got actual evidence to the contrary, particularly where your pathetic gimmick is concerned.

I don't "hang my hat on it". I mentioned it because it's absolutely relevant to your statement...... because it completely invalidates your statement.

See how that works?

>then, yes that does in fact tell me a lot
>about your sorry ass life.

hahahahahahah again... I really hate saying but since it's actually pretty accurate.... YOU MAD AS FUCK!!!

And we both know you'll be back for more back and forth fun. You'll be lazy boring about it, but you'll participate. you'll post vapid, lame little one liners in the header for like 12 more rounds until I get bored with you.....

....all because I had a laugh at your expense because someone gave you a fat slab of your own fuckery. Your anger is an unexpected bonus and for that, I thank you.

Until next time, Peaches :)

Because you clearly didn't read the fucking post.

It just so happens that he does that shit too and it was hilarious to watch him react to an encounter with his apparent doppelganger.

and that's what okayplayer is to some people, so be it. I've been on here since like 99 and still got a relatively low post count, cuz I don't like the back and forth.

You could name any album like "Illmatic" and say you think one song is weaker. Then a whole slew of people will chime in and say that's it's one of their all time favorite songs. It would seem the artist had a better vision than you did because they understood appealing in different ways across a complete statement made their art more whole. While you want to eat more of your favorite mac & cheese cuz it's so delicious, but that m&c wouldn't be as good if you hadn't had those green beans to balance it out.

Invalidating someone's opinion is as intellectual as arguing their taste buds are wrong.

Art shouldn't be perfect. There's no risk. And no such thing.


Sorry to come off angry before, just trying to make my point. Peace.

This is a good example of an album that I listen to from top to bottom, but don't love every song. In Love with You is a song I tolerate, but up to that point it's damn near perfect.

I want to say OB4CL also but I don't think every song is a 10.

I think the inclusion of B.I.B.L.E was a brilliant left turn.

I think the track length helped immensely here. Swordsman is the only track that I don’t really love, but it’s not like I’m skipping it.

It’s just a dip in momentum but picks up right after on I Gotcha Back and closes out on an exceptionally high note with the completely unexpected B.I.B.L.E.

Any time of the day.
Any day of the week.
Any week of the month.
Any month of the year.
THAT'S.
MY.
SHXT.

lol

Stevie Wonder - Innervisions
Slowdive - Souvlaki
Gal Costa - Gal Costa
Gal Costa & Caetano Veloso - Domingo
Nas - Illmatic
Bill Evans Trio - Sunday at the Village Vanguard
Almendra - Almendra
Marvin Gaye - What's Going On
Françoise Hardy - La question
Mingus - The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Pescado Rabioso - Artaud

a bunch of stuff from the 70s

Interesting

I hear Schoolboy Q produced it.

It’s fucking immaculate and we should all thank sweet white baby Jesus above that it exists.

I think I’ll conceive my next child to it.

Nope. Not at all.


"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

I'm trolling a troll.

You're trying to police the trolling of a troll.

Which is fucking stupid.

"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

But, please do continue to shadow me every time I pick on Anonymous. I imagine it makes for a nice break from wood carving or hat knitting or whatever your scraggly cornball ass does when you're not my latest five o clock shadow.

>But, please do continue to shadow me every time I pick on
>Anonymous.

So, you admit that your attempt here is to "pick on" another forum member. Going by your comments on some of the albums mentioned in this topic, I will assume that you and I are within a very similar age range. Which is to say: much too old to be targeting and "picking on" random strangers you encounter on the internet. Then again, you're also the first one to start throwing around unfounded insults, so such immaturity is right in line with your typical behavior, so I guess it should come as no surprise that you would admit to, and indeed, seem to be proud of the fact that you engage in such routines.


>I imagine it makes for a nice break from wood
>carving or hat knitting or whatever your scraggly cornball ass
>does when you're not my latest five o clock shadow.

Hypothetically speaking, if I was into woodworking and knitting, that would hardly be an insult. Because, at least I would be doing something worthwhile and productive with my hands, while you're just sitting there struggling to occupy your hands with more lame attempts at insults.


"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

>So, you admit that your attempt here is to "pick on" another
>forum member. Going by your comments on some of the albums
>mentioned in this topic, I will assume that you and I are
>within a very similar age range. Which is to say: much too
>old to be targeting and "picking on" random strangers you
>encounter on the internet.

Yes, I picked on a trolling ass troll who trolled me first- and not for the first time- and now I'm having a little fun at his trolling ass expense.

Since you think *we* are much to old to be targeting and picking on random strangers on the internet, perhaps you should, you know, be an actual mature guy and, you know, be that example.

But you're not: you're trolling me. So if you're going to police honor amongst thieves perhaps you shouldn't be in the muck yourself.

>one to start throwing aroun unfounded insults, so such
>immaturity is right in line with your typical behaviorso I
>guess it should come as no surprise that you would admit to,
>and indeed, seem to be proud of the fact that you engage in
>such routines.

Not sure where the "pride" thing comes in but whatever. I’m making immature wisecracks toward you, a strange, self appointed hall monitor caping for a troll who is getting trolled right back.

If you were anything approaching the mature, above-it-all guy you pretend to be, YOU WOULDN’T BE FOLLOWING ME AROUND TRYING TO POLICE ME…. Particularly when the guy I’m needling is a notorious troll.

It’s not like you’re defending some amiable guy who I jumped out of the clear blue, which makes your newfound infatuation curious to say the least.

The sort of person you feign to be wouldn’t pay any attention to any of this and that’s the best part of all of this:

I accept and own my participation in the muck and mire while you’re fucking delusional about your participation and hide behind the façade of your demeanor to convince yourself that you’re not doing the exact same shit. You stooped to the ridiculous level of critiquing obvious typos, as though that’s not a definitively tell-tale sign of a troll job.

Oh, and let’s address my insults: All of my insults are ABSURD. They’re playful. They’re hardly serious and obviously ridiculous. I have no foundation for any of it because I don’t know anything about you! None of it is intimately personal. It’s not like I have real information about you and I’m trying to hit you where it hurts.

It’s because I don’t take you seriously. You’re funny. You’re amusing. You’ve taken this buttoned down, folgers crystals drinking “I don’t say such immature things” persona of “maturity” and it’s fucking hilarious because you genuinely don’t see that you’re doing the same shit with a less objectionable tact on the surface.

> at least I
>would be doing something worthwhile and productive with my
>hands, while you're just sitting there struggling to occupy
>your hands with more lame attempts at insults.

Productive and worthwhile like... shadowing me the way you are? Gotcha. So productive and worthwhile use of your time. At it's core it's really no more or less than I'm doing to that trolling ass troll. It's the same shit and you're too smug to see it.

"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

I own my words and freely admit to what I've said and why.

You, on the other hand, are the one following me to chastise me for actions I'm not denying while you pretend you're not contributing to further destruction of the thread. I trolled Anonymous and have since backed off and have engaged with other posters regarding the subject matter while you've done nothing but continue the derailment of the thread over some issue you have with me... and just like in the other thread, that interaction was initiated by... YOU, you smelly mountain man.

Which makes you the convoluted, hypocritical mess, who STILL has not contributed a single word on the topic of either of the threads in which you've chosen to shadow me.

I've contributed healthy discussion in here and am in fact currently in the midst of an ongoing, reasonable and thoughtful discussion with Brew based on differing perspectives on Train Of Thought. He’s stated several times that he disagrees with my take on it and- GASP!- wonder of hipster hillbilly wonders, we’re still getting along just fine. I wonder what’s so different there?

You’ve contributed nothing of the sort and have engaged in no dialogue aside from your policing/passive aggressive antagonism of me… which means your sole purpose in here, much like your purpose in the Blank Face post, is 100% focused on me and thus definitively NOT the discussion of music. You would rather push up the numbers with your pointless back and forth with me instead of- or, at a minimum, in addition to- engaging on the OP subject matter.

Yes, the convoluted hypocritical mess in here would be you, the guy who hasn’t attempted to engage in anything other than the antagonism of a random stranger on the internet. At least I’ve contributed to a nice discussion in here relative to the subject of the OP. Can you say the same?

. . .I guess you'd have to go around congratulating yourself and pointing out the one semi-normal interaction you've had, to justify your numerous other obsessive meltdowns.



"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

Calling me the worst poster is rich coming from a guy who has literally done nothing but argue with me in two posts where *I* actually contributed thoughts on the subject of the OP.

So as far as that bullshit about "one normal interaction", well... that's one more than I've seen from you over the course of the two posts where *you* initiated argumentative, antagonistic and contextually distorted exchanges with me.

Your SOLE PURPOSE AND CONTRIBUTION in here is to argue with me.

Your SOLE PURPOSE AND CONTRIBUTION to that Blank Face thread was to argue with me.

So please, tell me more about "normal interactions" and being the "worst poster" as you contribute nothing but the continued derailment of the post with entirely off topic arguments with me.

Anonymous was the guy I trolled and even he isn't pressed to argue with me like you are.

You've accused me numerous times of "policing" the forum, as if that's a bad thing, then you turn around and reprimand me for being off topic — doing the exact thing you've accused me of doing.

In summary: http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130618000157/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/d/d5/Zoidberg_This_Post_Is_Bad.jpg



"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

>You've accused me numerous times of "policing" the forum, as
>if that's a bad thing

It is a bad thing, actually. You're doing nothing but arguing and derailing posts. It's not actionable. You're just telling me what you think but there's no action and no resolution to be had. You're just spinning wheels.

In fact, if I were doing anything actionable and you were genuinely concerned about it.... you would inbox a mod and plead for action. But you don't, choosing instead to "let me know that my rude behavior did not go unnoticed".

You're an approximation of an 80 year old volunteer citizen patrol bitching at kids on skateboards in the mall parking lot but doesn't call the cops because he knows the cops are going to laugh at you and tell you they've got more important shit to deal with.

>then you turn around and reprimand me
>for being off topic — doing the exact thing you've accused
>me of doing.

-hypocrisy:

"the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense."

Again: I readily acknowledge my end of that. I do not deny it nor do I divert from it. In fact I'm the opposite of a hypocrite. I freely admit to stooping to the level of trolls like anonymous and engaging with him on that level, same is I readily admit to stooping to your level of vapid antagonism and engaging with you on those grounds.

YOU, on the other hand are the one feigning higher moral ground.

You've consistently deflected every factual and contextually accurate assertion of your useless endeavor.

You're easily the most glaring hypocrite in the building.

You wouldn't know true, earnest music discussion in even its most basic form — and, even then, you'd be too argumentative to understand what was happening anyway.

Have the last word, since it's all you're about anyway.


"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

Nothing screams "pretentious" and "auto-fellating" like a guy who appoints himself the neighborhood security guard to police activity that even real security guards wouldn't look twice at. And, again, you won't even call the real "cops" because you know exactly what kind of response you'll get.

Also, you’ve once again shifted the discussion to something else.

Time and again I’ve addressed your posts based on the words in each post.

Each time you respond by completely ignoring that subject and shifting to another topic entirely.

You called me a hypocrite and I ran that through a shredder. No response. Instead you’re suddenly concerned about musical discussion after, what, 30 exchanges over the last two posts?

You know, like you did with this last one. Lol.

The bit about having the last word is also rich considering you’ll keep arguing long after you’ve achieved your stated goal.

I do like the bit about being a pseudo-intellectual though. It’s ridiculous but I did find it inspiring. I think I’ll develop a British accent, as I imagine it will make talking down to people much more enjoyable.

lol...

that one is weaker than the rest. plz forgive me

i'll switch it out for jungle brothers - straight out the jungle (OG vinyl... no girl i'll house you)

Not the popular opinion but some really like it.

I do think the Nathaniel skit plays a big role on the album. I love that shit.

that beat is off the chain

BUT the hook is very very basura

I do like the beat.

And even though I don't particularly like the girl or Witchdoctor's verses, they are memorable.

Wow, he went to the frozen food aisle and spent less than ten dollars. He must really be a catch.

Song sucks.


"I wasn't sure if I was lost or running away again. . ."

http://austinato.bandcamp.com

http://www.discogs.com/lists/Favorites-of-2016/269401

Exactly...not good but memorable

Sometimes I find joy in absurd dumb shit that makes me think "he really just said that?"

...One for All ....Goin Off ....Liquid Swords

I can't think of a time of skipping a joint or two on that album. It was the album I was thinking of when I saw the title of this post. Funny that it was one of your examples. Midnight Marauders is another one. Yes, I'll even play "8 Million Stories." I know it's considered the weakest cut on the album but it's only weak against strong competition on the album itself. The song itself is not wack by any means and if it wasn't a part of such a strong, classic album, I doubt many would have called it weak. I will play MM all the way through. Oh yeah, I used to play Black on Both Sides all the way through as well. I haven't listened to the full album in years but based off of memory, I'm sure I'd still listen to it all the way through...including "Rock and Roll."



Since 1976

It's such a thoughtful album without ever approaching pretentiousness, which is one minor issue I have had with train of thought as I've grown older. It never crosses the line but it encroaches here and there. Still a masterpiece to me. Atliens doesn't really have that sort of blemish IMO.

>It's such a thoughtful album without ever approaching
>pretentiousness, which is one minor issue I have had with
>train of thought as I've grown older. It never crosses the
>line but it encroaches here and there. Still a masterpiece to
>me. Atliens doesn't really have that sort of blemish IMO.

... I'm thinking perhaps the way Kweli comes off and acts in the latter part of his career may be tinting how you're looking back @ TOT ?

I mean, you did say "it never crosses the line" but I don't even really think that album comes close to sounding pretentious. That's actually one of the things I love about it. It touches on some super mature subject-matter without ever coming over preachy or self-important. That one album, even if neither artist involved ever achieved this again, came so naturally to both Kweli and HiTek.

I suppose I can see why you'd feel that way specifically BECAUSE of the subject matter, but in my opinion none of it comes off forced or fake or anything like that.

Like I said I don’t really feel like he’s all the way there, but there are spots where it’s a little melodramatic and entering the outer rim of being a little pretentious. There are a lot of generic battle raps toward “wack mc’s” that can only really come from a feeling of superiority.

“Too Late” feels a little self important, talking about how empty all these other rappers are, a sentiment I once championed but have since come to view as just as empty and useless as the bling bling nonsense. It’s fine because that’s a basic aspect of being an MC. One area where I’ve felt I’ve matured as a listener is that I no longer need rap to make a statement to enjoy it because there are just so many perfectly valid ways to approach hip hop sonically and topically and there are many perfectly empty and pointless songs that are absolutely great .

Too Late is one of my favorite joints on the album due to the beat but as I grew up the lyrics became less and less relatable. He’s kind of up his own ass on that one. Again, I still enjoy the song but don’t find it particularly profound. It’s ultimately every bit as empty as things it’s whining about, and yes, for me it eventually started to come across more as whining to me than a song that makes any real statement. Why complain about the problem when you’re in perfect position to actually be the solution and lead by example?
I used to agree fervently, like YEAH! FUCK ALL THESE WACK MC’S! FUCK ALL THE EMPTY RHETORIC! Now I’m like… shouldn’t you be focused on creating substantive material to offset the weak shit other guys are putting out instead of complaining about the weak shit? It just seems awfully counterproductive to me and ultimately undoes some of the good achieved in the albums more thoughtful moments.

And yes, TOT absolutely has some wonderfully thoughtful moments, like Memories Live. I’ll play it through today and see if I still get that impression, because you may well be right and I’m applying my general impression of Kweli to the album.

>Like I said I don’t really feel like he’s all the way
>there, but there are spots where it’s a little melodramatic
>and entering the outer rim of being a little pretentious.
>There are a lot of generic battle raps toward “wack
>mc’s” that can only really come from a feeling of
>superiority.

Yea see I guess I just don't categorize that type of stuff the same way. I think it's important to think of the context of that era too. A lot of MC's cut from the same cloth as Kweli were talking that same type of "wack MC" stuff at the time. Just a symptom of the era, though I suppose that fact wouldn't necessarily negate it from coming off pretentious in some listeners eyes, especially years later.


>“Too Late” feels a little self important, talking about
>how empty all these other rappers are, a sentiment I once
>championed but have since come to view as just as empty and
>useless as the bling bling nonsense. It’s fine because
>that’s a basic aspect of being an MC. One area where I’ve
>felt I’ve matured as a listener is that I no longer need rap
>to make a statement to enjoy it because there are just so many
>perfectly valid ways to approach hip hop sonically and
>topically and there are many perfectly empty and pointless
>songs that are absolutely great .
>
>Too Late is one of my favorite joints on the album due to the
>beat but as I grew up the lyrics became less and less
>relatable. He’s kind of up his own ass on that one. Again, I
>still enjoy the song but don’t find it particularly
>profound. It’s ultimately every bit as empty as things
>it’s whining about, and yes, for me it eventually started to
>come across more as whining to me than a song that makes any
>real statement. Why complain about the problem when you’re
>in perfect position to actually be the solution and lead by
>example?

Yea word, I mean I guess I see what you're saying but that's just one song out of twenty. So in my opinion, he *did* lead by example. Nothing wrong with dedicating one track to what you feel the problems are in the current landscape of rap. So long as a whole album isn't dedicated to it. The rest of the album dealt with subject matters of family, the difficulty of relationships, love, the struggles of women, the struggles of the black community, the political landscape, etc. So, in my eyes at least, he *was* leading by example.

Now if you want to say he sounded pretentious in DISCUSSING those topics, then we just have a fundamental disagreement regarding what pretentiousness sounds like. Haha.


>I used to agree fervently, like YEAH! FUCK ALL THESE WACK
>MC’S! FUCK ALL THE EMPTY RHETORIC! Now I’m like…
>shouldn’t you be focused on creating substantive material to
>offset the weak shit other guys are putting out instead of
>complaining about the weak shit? It just seems awfully
>counterproductive to me and ultimately undoes some of the good
>achieved in the albums more thoughtful moments.
>
>And yes, TOT absolutely has some wonderfully thoughtful
>moments, like Memories Live. I’ll play it through today and
>see if I still get that impression, because you may well be
>right and I’m applying my general impression of Kweli to the
>album.

Word yea. I'm interested to see what you think. When do you think the last time you heard it was previous to this ?

I really do think that (a) the "superiority" complex thing was just a symptom of the underground vs mainstream thing that was going on at the time, at probably a higher percentage than ever in hip-hop. In other words there's always been competition in hip-hop, the culture was basically built on it. But the late 90s/early 00s saw a major divide between mainstream and underground that I don't think we saw before or since. And (b) I really do think the latter half of Kweli's career has really tainted how people view his entire body of work. I listen to his early stuff now and am wistful about when he was focused, pointed/frank/direct about certain topics, but wasn't in your face or annoying about it like he can be these days. Back then he was almost endearing in his disgust, if that is possible. Haha. But again that's just MY opinion of how it sounds.

To be fair, it can probably be said that MY views of this album are being tainted in the other direction due to my bias for the time period of Train of Thought's release. I hold those albums in high regard and albums like ToT, Like Water ..., Black on Both Sides, etc., are still among my favorites of all time. So it can probably be said that my views are tainted just due to the fact that I am admittedly highly nostalgic for that time period. So I'm, probably subconsciously for the most part, more willing to overlook potential flaws just due to the fact that even hearing one note from a lot of these songs/albums can bring me right back to the excitement I felt when I first popped these CDs into my discman/stereo.

Sorry so long and rambling, I am trying to work while quickly typing out responses so excuse any typos/non-sensical run-on sentences.

I had every Rawkus album there was as well as all the Slum Village, Common, Roots, Dilated albums and all that. Everything was Beat Junkies and Lyricist Lounge and Wake Up Show and Co Flow and Lootpack and all that shit.

I was all rah-rah backpacker, b-boy for life, four elements, KRS One is god, motherfuck radio, all that. I was a full blown card carrying backpacker and still revere those albums in a big way. I see them as on par with the output of any era.

I say all this to say: I understand completely. I championed those messages and sounds. While I completely understand the temperature of the era and the driving factors behind such a concerted effort to counter-balance the shifting landscape, I can now look back objectively with greater personal and musical maturity. I appreciate them for the snapshots they were for what they were and what they represented in that timeframe but I also see some of the shortcomings and view those albums with a more critical eye than I was willing to cast at the time.

To that end, my critique isn’t rooted in trying to knock TOT or anything else from the time down a peg, but simply in listening with an entirely new perspective on pretty much everything those albums spoke about. I think it’s important to keep the circumstances that lead to the creation of those albums in mind, but I also think I’d be a seriously stunted individual if the way I related to things at 35 didn’t change from the way I related to them in my late teens and early twenties.

I’ll tackle your other response in a bit. I’m enjoying this discussion lol.

And I don't think you took it this way but just in case, I definitely didn't mean to insinuate that you were trying to knock ToT or any of the other music that clearly had a massive impact on both of us (and likely most of us on this board; it's the music that brought us all here obviously). Was just explaining the (probably biased) reasons I don't find that music to sound as pretentious as you do, even now with hindsight and perspective and maturity. I'm probably just still listening with a heavy dose of nostalgia for the formative years that shaped me musically, rather than a more strictly objective/critical ear that I'd judge it by if it were released today and *didn't* have that wistfulness attached to it.

So yea - we are on the same page for sure.

Interested to hear what you have to say when you give it another listen. I'm also enjoying the discussion immensely. ToT is an album I could discuss at length forever.

"Every song is a ten" though.

Every album you posted I play all the way through.

But if I'm honest with myself, there are aspects, like ET, that could've been better in my opinion.

The first half of the album is as flawless as an album gets.

Agreed. There are songs on the second half that are really hard to "LOVE"

Babylon
Wailin
Mainstream
Decateur Psalm
Melillenium
ET
Growing Old

ET has always been the only slacker on the entire album to me and that's due to the hook. I like the verses and stripped production.

Innervisions and Fulfillingness' First Finale by Stevie

Rapture by Anita Baker misses the cut by ONE misstep (pun intended). Rapture is the better album, but Giving You the Best That I Got and Compositions would make my list.

Faith Evans - Faithfully

probably more than I can't recall at the moment.

LOL That was a cool song but yeah, it aint a 10.

... Voodoo, Mama's Gun, Off The Wall, Best Of Both Worlds (Davina), lalah Hathaway live,

..off the top of my head .....

...Innervisions and Music Of My Mind are close, as is LWFC and RTD

Statues - Moloko
Endtroducing.... - DJ Shadow
Bad Brains - Bad Brains
3 + 3 - Isley Brothers
Illmatic - Nas
Make Yourself - Incubus
A Love Supreme - Coltrane
Return of the Space Cowboy - Jamiroquai
Breath From Another - Esthero
Straight From the Heart - Patrice Rushen
When the Pawn.... - Fiona Apple
Nina Simone Sings the Blues - Nina Simone
Superunknown - Soundgarden


So many more......

I love every joint on there.

I love everything about that record.

that thing is so underrated