I get what you're saying. But OKP is about it and it is still great even though it is and never was the 'perfect' place to discuss music. I'm glad it still exists after all these years.

And now, there's just too much flexibility and options music-wise. So, it is damn near impossible to get 'everyone' listening to the same thing at once with 'the same ears'.

Black Messiah is the Contra code of music movements. D'Angelo literally almost died after dropping Voodoo, had 15 years of emotions surrounding his forever-pending return to album form, and he had Questo being the best street team ever for him since he felt many of the same emotions as the fans who just wanted this mystical album to exist. And the brutal updates of 'almost done' or 'I'm trying to make him just put it out' or 'maaaann..this dude crazy'...awww man...

Also, everyone's life is holding so much information at a time now. And there's only so much space for music..even for music-loving folks like us. And even so-called 'music nerds' are nerdy about different things at different times and at different 'levels'. And some people never truly recover from what I call 'the snob period' where they think they're too good/busy/valuable to listen to anything that isn't at least almost perfect. Because Innervisions is perfect! I Want You is perfect! *Insert P-Funk or Prince album of your choice here* is soooo perfect! But someone like...let's say Avery Sunshine doesn't have 30+ years of adoration and study behind her stuff so she's just left to show up with some songs for displaced Jill Scott fans and hope those folks care enough to help her buy her next 3-piece with dirty rice.

I too got super snobby. And I still suffer with it SOMETIMES. But I've humbled myself enough to understand that there's no reason to dislike 'Bang' just because I want more folks to like Van Hunt.

To go back to the 70s, I'm pretty clear that my parents just stumbled into the albums that they had. They heard the songs in somebody's car. Or on Soul Train. Or on the radio. Or they ended up at a concert. Or they heard it in Sound Warehouse when they just went in there to get that new Barry White. They weren't reaching far out into the distance and grabbing for high-hanging fruits. They liked who they liked and rolled with that. Thinking back, the 'I Wanna Be Your Lover' Prince album and some random LTD album were the most 'obscure' things they had. Years later, I was over here with Van Hunt's outtakes album (Use in Case of Emergency) having the time of my life. That thing has a few of my favorite songs of his: Come Tomorrow, Funny, Her Smile, the non-rockish Attention remix...shiiiid. Jams.

Tangents aside (temporarily...this is me typing here)...'movements', manufactured or not, matter in music. Whether it is a cosign from a legend or a star or a Questy type 'nerd messiah' that folks trust for advice on what is good, it is important to have! Even something like what Pharrell did with/for Mayer Hawthorne could end up mattering more later on. And showing up at the right time with something that people want is a movement in of itself. And that's a 'new' a way to get yourself some attention.

If you don't have a huge audience and/or a big possibility of gained support, showing up with some old 'my next album will be out 8 months from now. Well probably so, y'all' is a silly way to 'work' a project. It always has been, but folks don't get away with that now since folks move on so quick from songs, albums, and even artists if there's no story, drama, or context to latch onto.

So, you're left with 'me and *producer* did a whole album together, y'all'. Or 'this is my last album, y'all...I know, this is my third last one, but I'm forreal this time, y'all'. Or 'BAM! Album is out tomorrow, y'all! You didn't even know tho! Haha! Gotcha!'.

Bilal and Van know they have fans. I'd expect that Van's fans are 'stronger' and 'more devoted' in general. Bilal's shelved album cut his legs off huge. And since he started from a higher place, the fall was bigger and probably hit him more heavily. He had Dr. Dre and 'trying to be a big deal'-era Jadakiss on the Fast Lane video. He had Soulquarian folks on his first album. Soul Sista seemed like a big enough deal (Saadiq-aided ballad after Untitled = big deal). He had the cool and funny Love It video. He had pretty much all of D'Angelo Jill's 2000 audience paying attention to him. Aka dude was out there. But then came the jackass performances and stories and 'issues with the label'. But he was still okay before Love For Sale vanished. Interscope are still some hoe ass hoes for that one.

Meanwhile, Van just had Randy saying 'Van is good, dog' if you asked him about it more than once. That wasn't shit! He had the 'Maxwell is gone, I am here, but I ain't mini-Marvin or with that whole sexy thang'. All of that misclassification left the individual listener to decide what they hoped for Van Hunt to be. And that helped ruin him with so many folks.

Sure, you're hoping that folks are 'better' than that. But sometimes, they aren't. And getting that is something to get over. To me, it is like getting surrounded with 'monsters' who only dig the stuff they are 'told' to dig. Meanwhile, you think you're back to back on OKP or wherever with folks who 'get it'...these folks listen to 'music for the music'! Some kind of 'noble cause'! But then you turn around and they're monsters too, doing dance routines to *insert some pop song that you think is wack*..like the most twisted vision of Thriller ever. Don't sweat it tho..we're on here typing a gang of paragraphs about music. We care big-time..we're just not all gonna agree on everything at the same time...especially on 'comparison conversations' like the one that started all of these posts. But the good part...I've listened to more Bilal in the last 3 days than I have in the last 3 years. Mission accomplished, OKP. Mission accomplished.

Jimaveli

>>Van has easily likeable and jammable songs. Is that an
>argument?
>
>It's not an argument, at all for me, and that leads me to the
>next point...
>
>>Or look at it this way, all he has is songs. And that ain't
>enough sadly...
>
>
>I remember reading an interview with Van Hunt somewhere, and
>he talked about
>being in the basement, working on some music. He runs up the
>stairs excited about
>what he's been working on, and Master P is playing on BET on
>the TV up stairs.
>He realizes this is where popular music is at the time and it
>takes all the steam
>out of him for the time being, and he just gets depressed,
>because he feels like
>he'll never be able to fit in with that. One could say he
>shouldn't be so easily discouraged,
>but that isn't the point here.
>What bugs me about it all is that we're here on a sort of site
>that champions the
>unheard voices in music, and we still have the biggest
>discussions about the artists
>who had the most corporate money behind them either now or at
>some time in the past.
>(there is the occasional exception, but it's rare).
>I guess it just bugs me that there doesn't really seem to be
>any community where
>the music truly matters more than "all the other stuff".
>Don't mind me... just wanted to get that off my chest. I
>agree with everything you said tho.
>
>
>
>>Katy Perry is a top-heavy and reasonably pretty white woman.
>>And she showed up singing to Kelly clarkson's audience about
>>kissing broads. That opens more folks up to her songs far
>more
>>than an old-looking black dude with punk funk leanings and
>>semi-tricky/indirect writing. And you know, labels can put
>>more money down when they think a fine chick with a few
>catchy
>>songs and even catchier outfits can help them get rich.
>>D'Angelo's first album, the bs Neo soul label, and him
>hittin
>>the gym...same thing. He had all of that AND Questo.
>>
>>Van Hunt was judged as a squirrelly Maxwell + Lenny Kravitz
>>without the over the top cool or any of the 'chicks dig
>him".
>>He did what he could with stuff like Attention and Precious,
>>but folks didn't roll with it. Aka 'just some songs'. He's
>one
>>of the artists that let me know I was listening harder and
>to
>>more stuff than the average person.
>>
>>And good lord, sliding him into the Neo soul bucket clearly
>>didn't help either. By that time, the Neo soul label had so
>>much baggage anyway. Obviously it is now clear that
>>quasi-righteous folks who don't comb their hair aren't a
>>reliable or large enough audience to base a career on trying
>>to appease. They'll leave your ass hanging for the next 'it'
>>soulman and then you're stuck trying to make a hit for folks
>>you hated on because you thought they had your back. Then
>them
>>cockroaches will fall up into dancemania without you and
>leave
>>you on the couch watching them dance with Tina. Aka they
>>bought the popular stuff that they tricked you into not
>>making. Beyonce and nem...
>>
>>Maybe we also missed the part where Stevie and Marvin were
>>cooing out copycat hits and covers for years before
>rebelling
>>and doing their own things. Folks thought they could skip
>that
>>part but the risk is still high.
>>
>>The first album, they lied about Van's age, had him imaged
>as
>>some neosoul pimp Curtis Mayfield, etc. They also did what
>>they could to make him into a 'this dude wrote songs that
>you
>>already like, so now you gotta like these' artist. Penny
>with
>>a hole in it, y'all! This guy wrote that!
>>
>>Van is a damn good song-writer who probably made a mistake
>by
>>continuing to show up with only himself as a vessel to get
>his
>>songs out and over. I dig Rahsaan Patterson, but he ain't
>the
>>vessel to get more folks into your sounds/songs/work. Even a
>>highly questionable artist like Terius Nash has a slice of
>an
>>audience still because he fed songs to visible stars who had
>>what he doesn't. Aka he positioned himself in a lane as a
>dude
>>who could 'for the right price make yo shit tighter'. Then
>he
>>slides in the back door with his own stuff. And when they
>try
>>to stop him, he hollers 'I wrote umbrella''.
>>
>>As an artist or even a known contributor, Van Hunt doesn't
>>have an Umbrella. Or an Untitled. Or a Soul Sista. Just A
>>Penny With a Hole in it. I mean that literally and not.
>