OK the captain obvious shit out the way
He does have Voodoo or mid 90s fame
Bilal doesn't have a 14 year hiatus check.

They both are of the Prince Sly and Family Stone lineage.

Love Surreal to me is better than this latest D album. Cmon music snobs.


http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/will-the-real-black-messiah-please-stand-up/

This blog sums up how I feel.

d'anglelo was sexier.

d'anglelo was seen as a bandleader and had a mythology
of the guy that could save "real music" from the evils of hip hop.

he just seems cooler.
bilal's weirdness is off putting, d'anglelo's weirdness is almost charming.

...nail on the head...personally, I respect and dig both these brothers work...

>bilal's weirdness is off putting, d'anglelo's weirdness is
>almost charming.
>
says it all right there. I've heard too many people say that Bilal was too weird when they saw him live. I dig and respect both artist. D being the better musician and Bilal being the better singer IMO. I'm not even sure Bilal plays any instruments.

Bilal's sophomore album came NINE years after his debut. So a lot of people were anticipating his re-emergence. But his album was released on an indie; it had a distinctly electronic feel, and his vocal approach was noticably different. He sounded more subdued, and the screaming that was a bit of a calling card was mostly absent. Plus there weren't really any songs on Airtights Revenge that, for the neo-soul crowd (which remained his core audience despite his rejection of the "genre"), could compare to Soul Sista or Sometimes. I was going to shows when Bilal was performing the Love For Sale stuff and after Airtight's Revenge was released, and the songs that still got the biggest response, and still do to this day, are those two from his debut.

Vocally, he can do just about anything D'Angelo can, and better. But his songs don't seem to resonate with his own audience as much as D's do. I'm not even sure he knows who his audience is at this point, or what they want from him. Or even cares. I think he really needs an executive producer, and/or to lock himself in with say Robert Glasper, Shafiq, Flying Lotus and Thundercatt. Let them handle the music, get some assistance with the writing, and allow Bilal to just focus on showcasing the gift that makes him one of the greatest treasures in all of contemporary music...his voice.


>d'anglelo was sexier.
>
>d'anglelo was seen as a bandleader and had a mythology
>of the guy that could save "real music" from the evils of hip
>hop.
>
>he just seems cooler.
>bilal's weirdness is off putting, d'anglelo's weirdness is
>almost charming.
>
>
>
>
>

Imagine if Love For Sale would have come out? Damn!

>Imagine if Love For Sale would have come out? Damn!

Some may see this as revisionism but if his label had just put it out immediately I think his career is really different.

It's amazing to see how the industry response to leaking has evolved. Look at how different RTJ's reaction to their leak was.

respect,
bc

"my old boy from the Point but I'm from Southwest..."

"Are you really ready to carry some weight?,
Are you ready to design your fate?" -Kelvin Mercer

is more important or equal to musical skill. Bilal is not known as a musician but voice wise to me he is better than D.

makes Rap heads relate

assumes you know the *real* reason people are going crazy over the Black Messiah --- not bc people actually, you know, like it, but because they "need something to believe in." Great armchair psychoanalysis!

But to your point, Bilal's albums have never come off as totalities to me... I've usually enjoyed them, but they generally feel like collections of tracks rather than fully-conceived projects. More importantly (imo) is that while dude is undoubtedly creative, his efforts at blurring or transcending genres can often feel a bit too forced, even contrived. Sort of a gap between his vision (which always appears radical in every respect) and execution (which never does his vision justice). He has a masterpiece in him, waiting to be made... but I haven't heard it yet.

I don't like comparing artistic output - the above comments aren't meant as a compare/contrast, more general thoughts on why Bilal has never reached *that* level of acclaim (from me anyway). Always appreciate his work, but he's never made my top 10 for any given year, let alone for any longer stretch of time... but hey, different strokes.

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

musical juxtaposition.

he dumped a whole container of Morton's on his head & went to work deflecting his issues onto people who like the album

it was incredible

>he dumped a whole container of Morton's on his head & went to
>work deflecting his issues onto people who like the album
>
>it was incredible

that made me laugh....

because homey did go to town. the drummming doesnt come off stiff at all to me. and isnt his rock criticism off base?? the whole album screams blues, jazz, hip hop and just black music in general.

homey (payton) is a damn fine jazz player though

but he'd prolly take issue with you calling him a "jazz" player lol #BAM

#oldhabitsdiehard

of all the shit I dislike in music discussions, assumptions (esp. overly judgmental/negative assumptions) about why people like something that the commentator does not like are my least favorite...

They generally rely on sweeping characterizations of listeners that often have little evidence to back up.

Meanwhile, we could be talking about... you know, music.

I get where OP is coming from re: the Bilal/D'Angelo contrast, but to write off an album days after its release and assume that your opinion is the only worthwhile opinion - which is what you do when you write off folks who enjoy a given record so absolutely - shit's a joke (and is intellectually lazy, I might add).


-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

who's payton?

http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/will-the-real-black-messiah-please-stand-up/


>who's payton?
>


......................................

https://soundcloud.com/jasper_brown

http://jasperbrown.bandcamp.com/

he hasn't yet come up w/anything as compelling and accessible as 'Brown Sugar' or 'Lady'.

and he never made a video like 'Untitled'.

plus he's not as handsome in the face.

All that other stuff makes me ask the question is persona a greater factor than the music?

I like that album. But nothing on it resonated with the masses to the degree of D's two big singles from his debut.

i literally love everything he puts out and i actually put him above d'angelo.
his first album was very hip hop so i don't get that criticism above
but i think had he done a 'untitled' type video early on he'd have more fans.
his voice is CRAZY to me (he's my favorite vocalist ever)
but i find the people who don't like him HATE his voice (which is just weird to me but whatevz)

fast lane, reminisce, all that i am, 2nd child...

the beat for sally was ridiculous

this post is gonna make me pull out the album tonigh

i put a few of my friends on w/Love For Sale. after having heard it half of them were like mad that i had suggested they listen to it. the other half became complete stans for the guy.

i've had a similar experience when recommending dude to people.

You probably didn't have to turn anyone on to Voodoo (which I suspect would yield simliar results).
Similar results could also come from "Black Messiah".
I do tend to think just about any r&b fan would dig the Brown Sugar album tho...
If anything, Bilal's biggest problem isn't Love For Sale: It's that he doesn't have a Brown Sugar album
with Brown Sugar marketing behind it

.

If Bilal came out before D'Angelo, their roles would be reversed.

It's not fair, but that's how it works in music.

Also, Bilal's debut was enjoyed by me and others, but generally got a mixed reception. I think if he went the all-Soulquarians route he would have been better off than going part-Dre, part-Soulquarians.

Also, D plays more instruments than Bilal and is looked at as a musical genius moreso, partially for that very reason.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

.

.

Because neither he nor his music are as compelling. I so wanted them to be, though, because when I first heard his voice, on Soul Sista, I thought this is a dude who could keep D on his toes.

?

Bilal is definitely a better vocalist. He just has more range and is just more talented.

BUT D'angelo has his own sound. He is in his own lane as far as how he uses his vocals.

Similar to Sade. There are better vocalists than Sade but her style is 100% her and there's something to be said about that.

listening to this album i remembered that one reason i always loved his music is because of the originality & uniqueness of his vocalizing, no one sounds like him & everyone else, even great artists, sound pedestrian in comparison

IMO of course

Bilal is fine in his own lane.

to imply he is not fine in his lane.


There was the account a few months ago when Bilal asked the crowd at a concert "who has the new record?" and nobody in the club raised their hand.

Bilal was like "what? Nobody?"


I don't think he was fine with that.

everyone in the building, including myself, knew the record so I'm not sure about that. He's a confident artist with a great team behind him (his drummer/producer Steve Mckie is one of the best in the biz). He cool. He might not ever be as big as D and that's perfectly okay.

(However I bought both Airtight and Love Surreal....so I woulda made noise!)

influence is prevalent kinda like Black Thought and Nas with G rap.

Thats why I made the comparison they have similar vocal tone so called sub genre.

No slight to him, thats just how I feel. The latest Bilal album was quality as well, but this new D'Angelo album is ridiculous.

.

So D'Angelo had a much larger audience off the rip, his look was more accessible, hyper masculine hip-hop heads didn't feel weird listening to him etc. I mean Raphael Saadiq "Instant Vintage" didn't pop either, those guys were too eccentric & feminine for the Black audience to latch on to at the time.
Kanye kicked in the door for the Black weirdos 10 years ago, but by that time most of Bilal's buzz was gone.

4 Better or 4 Worse

You're basically proving people's point that without the Untitled video and Voodoo tour D wouldn't be half as popular as he is

and fwiw, love Nicholas Payton's music & he makes good points but dude suffers from "doesn't know as much as he thinks he does" disease...i can relate but still

This post is pretty timely since I've revisited both of Bilal's last two releases in the wake of listening to Black Messiah almost non-stop.

Both Airtight and Love Surreal are near-masterpieces, in my book, so I disagree w/ anyone who questions Bilal's artistry or ability to create a cohesive and compelling full-length.

Both D and Bilal are brilliant musicians who come from a similar musical linage yet come with two very different approaches.

D is a musician to the bone while Bilal is more of a songwriter and vocal stylist. Apples and oranges.

>This post is pretty timely since I've revisited both of
>Bilal's last two releases in the wake of listening to Black
>Messiah almost non-stop.
>
>Both Airtight and Love Surreal are near-masterpieces, in my
>book, so I disagree w/ anyone who questions Bilal's artistry
>or ability to create a cohesive and compelling full-length.
>
>Both D and Bilal are brilliant musicians who come from a
>similar musical linage yet come with two very different
>approaches.
>
>D is a musician to the bone while Bilal is more of a
>songwriter and vocal stylist. Apples and oranges.
>
>
>
>
I agree with these sentiments . A Love Surreal is masterful. Bilal's GREATEST instrument is his voice. He bends it in fascinating ways and has a raw, human quality to his voice. I don't see the comparison between Bilal and D'Angelo at this stage. I think comparing A Love Surreal and Black Messiah serves as a good starting point--Bilal, I wholly consider a narrator with fascinating vocals and some killer narratives. Slipping Away is a fave and that record was easily my favorite that year. D'Angelo though, admittedly, his appeal lies more in his arrangements and harmonies. Also, Bilal is weird (which I love the shit out of) and his performances are more engaging by far.

and for myself, as far as the accessibility piece, I'll add that I loved Bilal's kinda punkrockness back when he used to "overdo it"...

that said, I'm waiting til the weekend to hear Blk Messiah, but up to this point, Voodoo is THAT soul album in my life

I'm guessing he is not as talented as D' from a musicians standpoint.

Not to mention D'angelo just sounds better to me. His voice and approach are much more appealing. Same genre, different league IMO.

post over

oh and love for sale was never released commercially...biggest problem ever. album was ridiculous

so a guy going so long between releases is gonna generate more buzz when he does come out...and also during times when people are hoping/guessing when he's going to come out..

Bilal never really had the mainstream success that D had so it's a tough comparison really...

during the times since Voodoo though..Bilal has provided a lot people who are D fans some very enjoyable music....studio..and live...

for what it's worth..... I would still say Love for Sale is a better album than Black Messiah from start to finish...

but I'm just glad we both currently have them back making records...

hopefully.

bilal got something for that ass. i try to see him anytime that he
comes to dc. my favorite vocalist right now. overall greatness, i
would say d'angelo is 1a and bilal is 1b.

they should do a show together and throw in robert glasper
experiment or chris daddy dave band? sheeit, i would pay top
dollar for that.

Bilal comes across as much more influenced by Jazz and D influenced by Soul/Funk/R&B. I know Bilal has some of those influences as well but there is a big Jazz element in his music to me and that generally doesn't translate to huge mainstream success even though he is by far the better singer and someone that can vocally hang with anyone. D'Angelo's influences are much more along the lines of what the core fan base of R&B digs...sexy, edgy but relatable. As others have pointed out Bilal is a lot more quirky than D who comes across like the cool ass homie who is really talented but more like your average brotha.

"Butterfly"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Q9Altgoes

I don't care what nobody say. Bilal's "Butterfly" is so beautiful
it can bring tears to your eyes. Should have been nominated for a Grammy this year. I am much more a fan of Bilal than D'Angelo.
Bilal's Falsetto, Operatic voice is unmatched. It's the voice that makes the difference.

Where do all today's best falsettos rank (Bilal, Maxwell, Justin Timberlake, Pharrell, Robin Thicke, Miguel)?

Bilal's Best
"Home"
"White
"Reminisce"
"Sometimes"
"All Matter"
"White Turns to Grey"
"Make Me Over"
"Letter to Hermione"
"Never Be the Same"
"Butterfly"

Bilal even made Beyonce sound so good on that duet
"Everything I Do"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDt8obx6qIg

That song made my stomach hurt the first time I heard it it was so beautiful. His work with Robert Glasper (along with other artists) is SO underrated.

and the 1st time we saw d'angelo was behind a piano in brown sugar.

he's been sold as a "serious" musician from day one and we bought it and have treated him as such

lol

but his major label record he was largely absent from the production and he was totally overshadowed by dre, Dilla and quest...

so he didn't get those marketing dollars pushing him out there as an all in one wunderkid

All the vocal melodies (wich for me is a part of producing a song) came from him, he also wrote Queen of Sanity, When Will You Call, Love Poems, Aaron comes helped him produce them but the ideas and songs came from him. Also Home and Second Child were also produced by Bilal.

smh...

none of those songs were marketed or had videos

saadiq got the credit on soul sista

dre got the credit on the joint with jadakiss

and the soulquarians had they joints....

i'm a guy thats heavy into credits and he wasn't sold that way sorry

most of the world would not have known about D angelo...

he would be Eric benet...

BUT what Bilal should be doing right now is getting an album out right under this D album.. because he is just as good vocal wise

brown sugar >>>>>> anything benet did
but it was almost 20 yrs ago
and imo voodoo is WAY overhyped. a lot of the songs sound the same to me
so i agree without the untitled pop culture impact i don't think brown sugar + voodoo on musical merits alone would have carried dangelo for over a decade

he got a huge buzz from Brown Sugar... he was being marketed as the 2nd coming...savior of soul ...BEFORE untitled....

I remember reading articles about all the celebs and stars that were checking for him on his small venue tour for brown sugar...including Prince..


he could have still been able to advance up to the large arena tour he did for Voodoo even without the untitled video just based on Brown sugar and the surrounding hype..birth of Neo soul thing...

the world was crazy about brown sugar.

any record on the Voodoo album in terms of commercial and crossover success. I still have hardcore pop and mainstream R&B heads saying that that's the only D song they can listen to.

Bilal has never had a crossover song - that's his issue.

maybe it was the way he was positioned or the fact he had no light on him
but it seemed like bilal the back up singer instead of "featuring bilal"

i'm probably in the minority but bilal >>>>>>>>>>>>> dangelo imo

>bilal >>>>>>>>>>>>> dangelo


But as complete artists, it's probably about neck and neck.

bothum are equally brilliant

bilal is just more left and a litmus test for weirdos, imo

i mean shit i know everybody in full blowjob mode post-black messiah, but cmon

bilal held it down in the interim

bothum are equally brilliant

bilal is just more left and a litmus test for weirdos, imo

i mean shit i know everybody in full blowjob mode post-black messiah, but cmon

bilal held it down in the interim

is one of the greatest things ever committed to 0s and 1s

and to me that is a feat.

dude is incredible - and he's amazing live.

he's not seeing d, though.

JayZ vs Nas everything. I'll share: for my $, Blueprint was better than Stillmatic, but I liked the two albums. I hate those albums and the 'drama' because it turned cats who all liked rap music into Democrats and Republicans.

As for D'Lo and Bilal, I like em boaf. Lots even. I see Love For Sale as THE music tragedy of the last 15 years that I know about. Having that work be shelved is rough. White Turns to Grey is still insane and I listen to songs on that thing with some regularity. I agree with the stance that Love For Sale not coming out derailed what could've/should've/would've been a 'bigger' career. And Airtight being largely ignored is also sad. Or at least it 'felt' ignored. I caught hell trying to find someone outside of OKP to get with about that album. I remember using Flying to try to street team for it like I'm using Another Life and Really Love for James Riv...my bad, Black Messiah.

To answer the OP's question, momentum and/or being a part of an institution/movement is and will forever be important to how albums get treated. D'Angelo has the 2nd one (his mystique, 15, and being involved with the 2000-ish Soulquarian body of work before Break U Off sent D'Angelo away from Quest and into depressio...JUST KIDDING!).

His forever-but-maybe-never-coming 3rd album is probably THE album to release 'out of nowhere'. And they did it. And it is easily good enough to not ruin the ideas of what MOST folks 'imagined' the record was going to be. And the gap in time since Voodoo breathes life/momentum into Black Messiah that might not've been there if it would've come out in 2006 before the full 'okay, this isn't happening' feeling kicked in. Black Messiah is the 'Winnie Cooper letting Kevin Hit It' of albums for folks right now. And folks are happy about it, so superlatives are gonna get thrown around. It is fun. Let it be and then we (Bilal fans) can get back to street-teaming for Bilal.

Jimaveli

>OK the captain obvious shit out the way
>He does have Voodoo or mid 90s fame
>Bilal doesn't have a 14 year hiatus check.
>
>They both are of the Prince Sly and Family Stone lineage.
>
>Love Surreal to me is better than this latest D album. Cmon
>music snobs.
>
>
>http://nicholaspayton.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/will-the-real-black-messiah-please-stand-up/
>
>This blog sums up how I feel.

All I wanna say is Bilal teams up w/ Shafiq Husayn and makes ANYTHING like Levels....man....I can't even finish the sentence.


Levels is a song that just keeps getting better and better the more you hear it and the more you see it performed.
Have you all seen Levels live??

*Soooo mad I missed him in Nov*

Joi's Amoeba Cleansing Syndrome imo stands up to Mama's Gun...and it was never released.

Joi was there from the beginning...yet she probably has more acclaim for being part of the Dungeon Family than for her solo work.

Erykah is everybody's funk queen...but what's fucking with Joi's version of "Lick"?

I think the other thing is that when he released Soul Sista, it sounded like a lot of things that were already out. We tend to focus on Brown Sugar....but "me and those dreamin' eyes" sounded like nothing else that was out....whereas "Soul Sista" 'sounds' like "Lady".

So Bilal's issue isn't the quality of his music, its a combination of stuff that wasn't released and the fact that D'Angelo was accorded the status of "first" or "trailblazer" when it comes to this genre...and Joi's fate was similar in relation to Analogue Girl...

THAT was the album that would have put Bilal at D'Angelo's level of lure and legend. I am a huge fan of both, and I like Bilal's recent work, but "Love for Sale" blew my mind. It actually made me okay with D's absence.

I could state the obvious about D vs. Bilal as a musician, but the fact that D plays instruments and produces his albums wouldn't make a difference to the general public.

>THAT was the album that would have put Bilal at D'Angelo's
>level of lure and legend. I am a huge fan of both, and I like
>Bilal's recent work, but "Love for Sale" blew my mind. It
>actually made me okay with D's absence.
>
>I could state the obvious about D vs. Bilal as a musician, but
>the fact that D plays instruments and produces his albums
>wouldn't make a difference to the general public.
>
>


silk.later Reunion radio with Old P. & Silk http://reunionradio.blogspot.com/

"i'm talking about *Balls Deep*....In Love (c)Cleveland Jr.

He was cultivating a fine nigga farm (c)Goldmind.

R.I.P Jamie Hubley

instead the label sat on it for too long (trying to figure out a single?) and the leak spread further and wider. then the label shelved the project forever on the theory that the audience that would've paid for it had already copped it on bootleg for free. it was backassward.

respect,
bc

"my old boy from the Point but I'm from Southwest..."

"Are you really ready to carry some weight?,
Are you ready to design your fate?" -Kelvin Mercer

If that song don't put you on a "next level" vibe, I don't know what to tell you. I'm as much a D fan as anyone, but if I had to listen to one man's catalog for the rest of my life, Bilal's would be the answer, no question.

"airtight's revenge" and "a love surreal."

i don't know why, either. other stuff come out around the same time??

i was a HUGE bilal fan leading up to "1st born second." and when the album dropped, it was great. but i can see the criticism of it not having an overall theme, or being a cohesive piece of work. i remember bilal himself saying that the main theme was his musical "curiosity" and that was cool. but i wanted that curiosity to lend itself to something HUGE on the next LP. like some kinda masterpiece opus. unfortunately for me, "love for sale" wasn't that. it seemed timid. those moments on 1stBS when i was scared that his voice would explode at any minute weren't there. honestly, i can't really remember the album, and that's the problem. maybe i'll revisit.

in any regard, just musically speaking, that's why i think d'angelo gets more attention than bilal--bilal has not delivered on his promise...YET; HE STILL CAN!

meanwhile, d'angelo is batting 1.000 when it comes to delivering on his artistic promise.

Bilal had a fall out with a certain person at Interscope and is the reason why his career was stymied for a second?

at least Payton, for all his arrogance, IS (mostly)

Popular should have been released!!

i'm a fan and i see that homie doesn't have songs that'll grab the masses. he also doesn't have a video like 'Untitled'.

There's the whole Untitled thing that seperates D from the rest as far as accessibility
Take that away and....

Now personally, I think there's no difference between any of them in regards to talent
Regardless if Bilal can play an instrument...he's on THAT level to me
Or if V doesnt have the IT factor...he's on THAT level
I'll add Meshell as well (but she has her issues as well)
They all have their strengths and weaknesses
And in another place and time, they would have been peers
But this day and age, it's not the case
Everyone's jockeying for their fav artist to be the next ____

"Man of the Year"
"What Can I Say (For Millicent)"
"The Thrill of This Love"
"What Were You Hoping For"
"Daredevil, Baby" (if Adele or Amy Winehouse dropped this, yall would swear it was the new baby jesus)
same goes for "Bits & Pieces" AND "There's Never A G'time To Say G'bye"
"Mean Sleep"
"Who Will Love Me In Winter"


Dude has mad songs that should have been POP hits. Something about the way he's
marketed (or NOT marketed) or something.

he's not close to being on bilal's level, let alone d'angelo's.

>he's not close to being on bilal's level, let alone
>d'angelo's.

i was going to get really mad about your post, and then i read the name. shockzilla.

touche.

i'm not a shock poster or a troll.

i say that sincerely.

van hunt exists because d'angelo left a vacuum.

i am decidedly not a fan. he's a shadow of his influences and seemingly has no identity of his own. he's got nothing on d'lo or bilal.

he's like a second-rate lenny kravitz. imagine that.

oh well the whole "fuck van hunt" part is pretty extreme. and it's a lot to say just because you're not a fan. but to say he has nothing on "d'lo or bilal..." while being a matter of tastes and music being "subjective" is...nonsenselessness

a second-rate lenny kravitz definitely doesn't fit the bill either. he's probably the single most slept on artist of the 2000's.

i watched one of his performances on youtube, and it was kind of like an open mic, and he was playing. his fans sung along with him. and they sung every word. no big deal right. wrong.

they sung every word, and they harmonized with him, not just sang along, they harmonized. i've literally never seen or heard anything like it. that's quite an accomplishment and a testament to his artistry.

to sing and play your songs to fans who are there because they genuinely love your music. and to have them not only sing back, but to literally harmonize with you as you sing; is rare and not to be understated in the current disposable music climate.

he's the real deal. and he's been consistently giving us good music, at least i know i'm never disappointed when i hear his records. he's got range, he can write, and play all that stuff with anyone i've ever heard. but real recognize real...

seriious question, do you make music?

perhaps I was overly harsh, but this is The Lesson and hyperbole is shorthand.

Serious question, are you Van Hunt?

I'm not a VH stan or anything, but your writing him off here like a "second-rate LK" is... damn. Usually get where you're coming from.

Dude is *way* more talented than I think you're giving him credit for... I get the arguments about being derivative (and I know that's where the LK connection is made), but those elements have (I think) weakened and weakened over each album. You can hear him starting to come into his own on "On the Jungle Floor" (which I think is a pretty sharp album, albeit a bit too long), and then striking far out into some rather progressive territory on "Popular" (which I didn't like a whole lot but appreciated for its more experimental qualities).

If anything, I would say he's underrated as a writer. I'd give him a second chance (and def stop comparing him to LK, whose paradox of talent/execution is on a whole other plane...)

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

i've tried. i really have. and perhaps i'm getting a little mistermaxxx-ish OTT in my 'hate'.

and a bunch of posters whose opinions i respect have tried to put me onto him but his music always leaves me cold.

sowhat posted some van hunt 'jams' in another thread just recently and.. nothing. it's not like i don't WANT to like a new soul guy, particularly with dude's approach.

his music is just 'eh' to me.

i guess i don't know what i'm missing that y'all are hearing, but i'd rather listen to his influences than his music any day - and i don't get that with d or bilal.

plenty ppl around here whose taste i generally respect dig acts i just don't dig.

it's life.

we like VH and you don't. it's cool.

stop trying.

after i listened to those songs you posted, i again realised he's just not for me.

and that's okay.

>Popular should have been released!!

Van probably doesn't have the voice to be in on this convo. He has the intricate/dope writing, a little of the 'what did you just say', and a general punk funk that I'm down with. I'll argue that the man has at least a small mountain of really good songs. I revisit his work often. And if he comes out with something, I buy it ASAP. But even I admit that at least some of his songs would be better if he was a 'better singer'. Still, I'm all for any argument involving On The Jungle Floor being more criminally ignored than anything D or Bilal put out. It is almost all slamming. I'd love it if some artist with a bigger profile who loves him showed up NOW and redid SEVERAL songs from it and 'made' folks listen to them. To me, Van might be a much better Mayer Hawthorne, a dope music-lover artist type of cat who should probably be feeding his work through a 'better singer' who could trick more folks into listening at a time. I'm going to be sad when Tuxedo drops and 'Get You Home' doesn't somehow take over the earth. It is no Another Life, but c'mon..what do people want!?

Hunt Live: I had a great time when I finally went and saw Hunt a few years ago. He didn't touch Popular sadly, but he did a 5+ minute jam version of Ohio Players 'Ecstasy' (think the 'Love will never do without you' part repeatedly) as a transition between two of his songs that blew me all the way away and damn near ruined me for the rest of the show. I'd pay for that immediately if it became available.

Saadiq:

I'd rather add Raphael Saadiq in Hunt's place if anyone, but it could argued that Ray 'turned out better' as it relates to having a better overall 'career' as an active singer and producer..especially if you add the 3T stuff. But his highs probably aren't as high as either Bilal or D'Lo and he's certainly lacking the mystique and squirrelliness of Bilal, D'Lo, or even Van. He's also missing much of the Prince and is instead far more in your face with his love for hip hop.

Saadiq's Slave-ish 'jam first then just say something that at least kinda fits the song' style of lyrics probably cut him short more with folks than anything else. But with his voice, he sounds so good even if he's saying the silliest stuff sometimes.

I remember being a HEAVY Instant Vintage person. Body Parts...shiiiid. Uptown is the first non-BM song I've listened to in almost a week. Something super random made me think about him saying 'I'm leaving this tooowwwwnn' and I knew I had to do it AND come here and ramble about him. And As Ray Ray..talk about slept on. This One!? He went so Arrington on that and so many other jams, but I loved it. Music I tell you...it is such a big part of who I am.

Jimaveli: "Why do you...why do you..ever get out of beeeed, yeah!"

Van has his weaknesses...he just doesnt have that IT factor

But mr archer and Bilal have weaknesses as well..

Not saying one is better than the other

Me personally, I see them on the same level

Now saadiq? Trumps all of them imo

Lady was Saadiq

Untitled and The Line was Saadiq...Nuff said!!

Bottom line for me is that there's room for everyone

That was the problem with the neo soul movement

It was always this person vs that person

But this song did well also because of the vocals

This must be bizarro world, lol. Van Hunt can do EVERYTHING D'angelo can do vocally,
AND he has a stronger voice.

Van Hunt sounds common.

As for 'this must be bizarro world'?

LOL. um, no. you're tripping.

Or you truly come from another world where Van Hunt is more highly regarded than D'Angelo.

One of those two.

D'angelo does have unique "back-of-the-throat" singing style tho.
Can't deny that.
So what jimaveli means is that his songs might be more appealing if he was "more unique" singer.
I honestly don't think that's the case at all, because there's Katy Perry whose voice
is EXTREMELY "normal" AND has mediocre songs. There are plenty artists who've
fallen into this category for years now.
Your Van Hunt hate is extreme and irrational tho, so I don't even now why I'd continue here.

V be missing notes and shit. He's off key at times. And his voice isn't as powerful as D's. Between the 2 I'd much rather hear D singing.

>V be missing notes and shit. He's off key at times.

You mean live? I haven't seen that many live performances of his, but when I do,
I just wish he'd sing more in his powerful voice than the Curtis Mayfield whisper, because
he does really have a powerful voice when he sings out.

>And his voice isn't as powerful as D's.


Gonna have to just straight up disagree there.



>Between the 2 I'd much rather
>hear D singing.

That's cool. Doesn't have anything to do with who's the better singer tho.

>You mean live? I haven't seen that many live performances of
>his, but when I do,
>I just wish he'd sing more in his powerful voice than the
>Curtis Mayfield whisper, because
>he does really have a powerful voice when he sings out.

his voice is iffy, IMO.

>>And his voice isn't as powerful as D's.
>
>
>Gonna have to just straight up disagree there.
>
>
>
>>Between the 2 I'd much rather
>>hear D singing.
>
>That's cool. Doesn't have anything to do with who's the
>better singer tho.

it does. and D is the better singer. no doubt.

>
>
>
>

and no, i don't agree with your contention at all.

van hunt has his own lane and clearly has fans and that's cool

but he's not on d's level by any conceivable measure.

to claim that he is is straight up delusional.

>D'angelo does have unique "back-of-the-throat" singing style
>tho.
>Can't deny that.
>So what jimaveli means is that his songs might be more
>appealing if he was "more unique" singer.
>I honestly don't think that's the case at all, because there's
>Katy Perry whose voice
>is EXTREMELY "normal" AND has mediocre songs. There are
>plenty artists who've
>fallen into this category for years now.
>Your Van Hunt hate is extreme and irrational tho, so I don't
>even now why I'd continue here.

Van has easily likeable and jammable songs. Is that an argument? Whatever. Regardless, he lacked all of the good bullshit you need. Aka he was a hard sell, he had horrible timing, and things went wrong. Or look at it this way, all he has is songs. And that ain't enough sadly...

Katy Perry is a top-heavy and reasonably pretty white woman. And she showed up singing to Kelly clarkson's audience about kissing broads. That opens more folks up to her songs far more than an old-looking black dude with punk funk leanings and semi-tricky/indirect writing. And you know, labels can put more money down when they think a fine chick with a few catchy songs and even catchier outfits can help them get rich. D'Angelo's first album, the bs Neo soul label, and him hittin the gym...same thing. He had all of that AND Questo.

Van Hunt was judged as a squirrelly Maxwell + Lenny Kravitz without the over the top cool or any of the 'chicks dig him". He did what he could with stuff like Attention and Precious, but folks didn't roll with it. Aka 'just some songs'. He's one of the artists that let me know I was listening harder and to more stuff than the average person.

And good lord, sliding him into the Neo soul bucket clearly didn't help either. By that time, the Neo soul label had so much baggage anyway. Obviously it is now clear that quasi-righteous folks who don't comb their hair aren't a reliable or large enough audience to base a career on trying to appease. They'll leave your ass hanging for the next 'it' soulman and then you're stuck trying to make a hit for folks you hated on because you thought they had your back. Then them cockroaches will fall up into dancemania without you and leave you on the couch watching them dance with Tina. Aka they bought the popular stuff that they tricked you into not making. Beyonce and nem...

Maybe we also missed the part where Stevie and Marvin were cooing out copycat hits and covers for years before rebelling and doing their own things. Folks thought they could skip that part but the risk is still high.

The first album, they lied about Van's age, had him imaged as some neosoul pimp Curtis Mayfield, etc. They also did what they could to make him into a 'this dude wrote songs that you already like, so now you gotta like these' artist. Penny with a hole in it, y'all! This guy wrote that!

Van is a damn good song-writer who probably made a mistake by continuing to show up with only himself as a vessel to get his songs out and over. I dig Rahsaan Patterson, but he ain't the vessel to get more folks into your sounds/songs/work. Even a highly questionable artist like Terius Nash has a slice of an audience still because he fed songs to visible stars who had what he doesn't. Aka he positioned himself in a lane as a dude who could 'for the right price make yo shit tighter'. Then he slides in the back door with his own stuff. And when they try to stop him, he hollers 'I wrote umbrella''.

As an artist or even a known contributor, Van Hunt doesn't have an Umbrella. Or an Untitled. Or a Soul Sista. Just A Penny With a Hole in it. I mean that literally and not.

>Van has easily likeable and jammable songs. Is that an argument?

It's not an argument, at all for me, and that leads me to the next point...

>Or look at it this way, all he has is songs. And that ain't enough sadly...


I remember reading an interview with Van Hunt somewhere, and he talked about
being in the basement, working on some music. He runs up the stairs excited about
what he's been working on, and Master P is playing on BET on the TV up stairs.
He realizes this is where popular music is at the time and it takes all the steam
out of him for the time being, and he just gets depressed, because he feels like
he'll never be able to fit in with that. One could say he shouldn't be so easily discouraged,
but that isn't the point here.
What bugs me about it all is that we're here on a sort of site that champions the
unheard voices in music, and we still have the biggest discussions about the artists
who had the most corporate money behind them either now or at some time in the past.
(there is the occasional exception, but it's rare).
I guess it just bugs me that there doesn't really seem to be any community where
the music truly matters more than "all the other stuff".
Don't mind me... just wanted to get that off my chest. I agree with everything you said tho.



>Katy Perry is a top-heavy and reasonably pretty white woman.
>And she showed up singing to Kelly clarkson's audience about
>kissing broads. That opens more folks up to her songs far more
>than an old-looking black dude with punk funk leanings and
>semi-tricky/indirect writing. And you know, labels can put
>more money down when they think a fine chick with a few catchy
>songs and even catchier outfits can help them get rich.
>D'Angelo's first album, the bs Neo soul label, and him hittin
>the gym...same thing. He had all of that AND Questo.
>
>Van Hunt was judged as a squirrelly Maxwell + Lenny Kravitz
>without the over the top cool or any of the 'chicks dig him".
>He did what he could with stuff like Attention and Precious,
>but folks didn't roll with it. Aka 'just some songs'. He's one
>of the artists that let me know I was listening harder and to
>more stuff than the average person.
>
>And good lord, sliding him into the Neo soul bucket clearly
>didn't help either. By that time, the Neo soul label had so
>much baggage anyway. Obviously it is now clear that
>quasi-righteous folks who don't comb their hair aren't a
>reliable or large enough audience to base a career on trying
>to appease. They'll leave your ass hanging for the next 'it'
>soulman and then you're stuck trying to make a hit for folks
>you hated on because you thought they had your back. Then them
>cockroaches will fall up into dancemania without you and leave
>you on the couch watching them dance with Tina. Aka they
>bought the popular stuff that they tricked you into not
>making. Beyonce and nem...
>
>Maybe we also missed the part where Stevie and Marvin were
>cooing out copycat hits and covers for years before rebelling
>and doing their own things. Folks thought they could skip that
>part but the risk is still high.
>
>The first album, they lied about Van's age, had him imaged as
>some neosoul pimp Curtis Mayfield, etc. They also did what
>they could to make him into a 'this dude wrote songs that you
>already like, so now you gotta like these' artist. Penny with
>a hole in it, y'all! This guy wrote that!
>
>Van is a damn good song-writer who probably made a mistake by
>continuing to show up with only himself as a vessel to get his
>songs out and over. I dig Rahsaan Patterson, but he ain't the
>vessel to get more folks into your sounds/songs/work. Even a
>highly questionable artist like Terius Nash has a slice of an
>audience still because he fed songs to visible stars who had
>what he doesn't. Aka he positioned himself in a lane as a dude
>who could 'for the right price make yo shit tighter'. Then he
>slides in the back door with his own stuff. And when they try
>to stop him, he hollers 'I wrote umbrella''.
>
>As an artist or even a known contributor, Van Hunt doesn't
>have an Umbrella. Or an Untitled. Or a Soul Sista. Just A
>Penny With a Hole in it. I mean that literally and not.

I get what you're saying. But OKP is about it and it is still great even though it is and never was the 'perfect' place to discuss music. I'm glad it still exists after all these years.

And now, there's just too much flexibility and options music-wise. So, it is damn near impossible to get 'everyone' listening to the same thing at once with 'the same ears'.

Black Messiah is the Contra code of music movements. D'Angelo literally almost died after dropping Voodoo, had 15 years of emotions surrounding his forever-pending return to album form, and he had Questo being the best street team ever for him since he felt many of the same emotions as the fans who just wanted this mystical album to exist. And the brutal updates of 'almost done' or 'I'm trying to make him just put it out' or 'maaaann..this dude crazy'...awww man...

Also, everyone's life is holding so much information at a time now. And there's only so much space for music..even for music-loving folks like us. And even so-called 'music nerds' are nerdy about different things at different times and at different 'levels'. And some people never truly recover from what I call 'the snob period' where they think they're too good/busy/valuable to listen to anything that isn't at least almost perfect. Because Innervisions is perfect! I Want You is perfect! *Insert P-Funk or Prince album of your choice here* is soooo perfect! But someone like...let's say Avery Sunshine doesn't have 30+ years of adoration and study behind her stuff so she's just left to show up with some songs for displaced Jill Scott fans and hope those folks care enough to help her buy her next 3-piece with dirty rice.

I too got super snobby. And I still suffer with it SOMETIMES. But I've humbled myself enough to understand that there's no reason to dislike 'Bang' just because I want more folks to like Van Hunt.

To go back to the 70s, I'm pretty clear that my parents just stumbled into the albums that they had. They heard the songs in somebody's car. Or on Soul Train. Or on the radio. Or they ended up at a concert. Or they heard it in Sound Warehouse when they just went in there to get that new Barry White. They weren't reaching far out into the distance and grabbing for high-hanging fruits. They liked who they liked and rolled with that. Thinking back, the 'I Wanna Be Your Lover' Prince album and some random LTD album were the most 'obscure' things they had. Years later, I was over here with Van Hunt's outtakes album (Use in Case of Emergency) having the time of my life. That thing has a few of my favorite songs of his: Come Tomorrow, Funny, Her Smile, the non-rockish Attention remix...shiiiid. Jams.

Tangents aside (temporarily...this is me typing here)...'movements', manufactured or not, matter in music. Whether it is a cosign from a legend or a star or a Questy type 'nerd messiah' that folks trust for advice on what is good, it is important to have! Even something like what Pharrell did with/for Mayer Hawthorne could end up mattering more later on. And showing up at the right time with something that people want is a movement in of itself. And that's a 'new' a way to get yourself some attention.

If you don't have a huge audience and/or a big possibility of gained support, showing up with some old 'my next album will be out 8 months from now. Well probably so, y'all' is a silly way to 'work' a project. It always has been, but folks don't get away with that now since folks move on so quick from songs, albums, and even artists if there's no story, drama, or context to latch onto.

So, you're left with 'me and *producer* did a whole album together, y'all'. Or 'this is my last album, y'all...I know, this is my third last one, but I'm forreal this time, y'all'. Or 'BAM! Album is out tomorrow, y'all! You didn't even know tho! Haha! Gotcha!'.

Bilal and Van know they have fans. I'd expect that Van's fans are 'stronger' and 'more devoted' in general. Bilal's shelved album cut his legs off huge. And since he started from a higher place, the fall was bigger and probably hit him more heavily. He had Dr. Dre and 'trying to be a big deal'-era Jadakiss on the Fast Lane video. He had Soulquarian folks on his first album. Soul Sista seemed like a big enough deal (Saadiq-aided ballad after Untitled = big deal). He had the cool and funny Love It video. He had pretty much all of D'Angelo Jill's 2000 audience paying attention to him. Aka dude was out there. But then came the jackass performances and stories and 'issues with the label'. But he was still okay before Love For Sale vanished. Interscope are still some hoe ass hoes for that one.

Meanwhile, Van just had Randy saying 'Van is good, dog' if you asked him about it more than once. That wasn't shit! He had the 'Maxwell is gone, I am here, but I ain't mini-Marvin or with that whole sexy thang'. All of that misclassification left the individual listener to decide what they hoped for Van Hunt to be. And that helped ruin him with so many folks.

Sure, you're hoping that folks are 'better' than that. But sometimes, they aren't. And getting that is something to get over. To me, it is like getting surrounded with 'monsters' who only dig the stuff they are 'told' to dig. Meanwhile, you think you're back to back on OKP or wherever with folks who 'get it'...these folks listen to 'music for the music'! Some kind of 'noble cause'! But then you turn around and they're monsters too, doing dance routines to *insert some pop song that you think is wack*..like the most twisted vision of Thriller ever. Don't sweat it tho..we're on here typing a gang of paragraphs about music. We care big-time..we're just not all gonna agree on everything at the same time...especially on 'comparison conversations' like the one that started all of these posts. But the good part...I've listened to more Bilal in the last 3 days than I have in the last 3 years. Mission accomplished, OKP. Mission accomplished.

Jimaveli

>>Van has easily likeable and jammable songs. Is that an
>argument?
>
>It's not an argument, at all for me, and that leads me to the
>next point...
>
>>Or look at it this way, all he has is songs. And that ain't
>enough sadly...
>
>
>I remember reading an interview with Van Hunt somewhere, and
>he talked about
>being in the basement, working on some music. He runs up the
>stairs excited about
>what he's been working on, and Master P is playing on BET on
>the TV up stairs.
>He realizes this is where popular music is at the time and it
>takes all the steam
>out of him for the time being, and he just gets depressed,
>because he feels like
>he'll never be able to fit in with that. One could say he
>shouldn't be so easily discouraged,
>but that isn't the point here.
>What bugs me about it all is that we're here on a sort of site
>that champions the
>unheard voices in music, and we still have the biggest
>discussions about the artists
>who had the most corporate money behind them either now or at
>some time in the past.
>(there is the occasional exception, but it's rare).
>I guess it just bugs me that there doesn't really seem to be
>any community where
>the music truly matters more than "all the other stuff".
>Don't mind me... just wanted to get that off my chest. I
>agree with everything you said tho.
>
>
>
>>Katy Perry is a top-heavy and reasonably pretty white woman.
>>And she showed up singing to Kelly clarkson's audience about
>>kissing broads. That opens more folks up to her songs far
>more
>>than an old-looking black dude with punk funk leanings and
>>semi-tricky/indirect writing. And you know, labels can put
>>more money down when they think a fine chick with a few
>catchy
>>songs and even catchier outfits can help them get rich.
>>D'Angelo's first album, the bs Neo soul label, and him
>hittin
>>the gym...same thing. He had all of that AND Questo.
>>
>>Van Hunt was judged as a squirrelly Maxwell + Lenny Kravitz
>>without the over the top cool or any of the 'chicks dig
>him".
>>He did what he could with stuff like Attention and Precious,
>>but folks didn't roll with it. Aka 'just some songs'. He's
>one
>>of the artists that let me know I was listening harder and
>to
>>more stuff than the average person.
>>
>>And good lord, sliding him into the Neo soul bucket clearly
>>didn't help either. By that time, the Neo soul label had so
>>much baggage anyway. Obviously it is now clear that
>>quasi-righteous folks who don't comb their hair aren't a
>>reliable or large enough audience to base a career on trying
>>to appease. They'll leave your ass hanging for the next 'it'
>>soulman and then you're stuck trying to make a hit for folks
>>you hated on because you thought they had your back. Then
>them
>>cockroaches will fall up into dancemania without you and
>leave
>>you on the couch watching them dance with Tina. Aka they
>>bought the popular stuff that they tricked you into not
>>making. Beyonce and nem...
>>
>>Maybe we also missed the part where Stevie and Marvin were
>>cooing out copycat hits and covers for years before
>rebelling
>>and doing their own things. Folks thought they could skip
>that
>>part but the risk is still high.
>>
>>The first album, they lied about Van's age, had him imaged
>as
>>some neosoul pimp Curtis Mayfield, etc. They also did what
>>they could to make him into a 'this dude wrote songs that
>you
>>already like, so now you gotta like these' artist. Penny
>with
>>a hole in it, y'all! This guy wrote that!
>>
>>Van is a damn good song-writer who probably made a mistake
>by
>>continuing to show up with only himself as a vessel to get
>his
>>songs out and over. I dig Rahsaan Patterson, but he ain't
>the
>>vessel to get more folks into your sounds/songs/work. Even a
>>highly questionable artist like Terius Nash has a slice of
>an
>>audience still because he fed songs to visible stars who had
>>what he doesn't. Aka he positioned himself in a lane as a
>dude
>>who could 'for the right price make yo shit tighter'. Then
>he
>>slides in the back door with his own stuff. And when they
>try
>>to stop him, he hollers 'I wrote umbrella''.
>>
>>As an artist or even a known contributor, Van Hunt doesn't
>>have an Umbrella. Or an Untitled. Or a Soul Sista. Just A
>>Penny With a Hole in it. I mean that literally and not.
>

for sheer emotional impact, bilal wins every time. dangelo rarely hits any emotional peaks or hits you *there* like bilal can (dangelo does manage it every so often though). but bilals problem is that he doesnt know how to really make albums, and could do with some co-writing at times. i mean, bilal is a genius vocalist, but hes not quite as good at the other stuff. if he had someone like dangelo writing for him, it would help. dangelo compensates for his emotional distance with great aesthetics and craft. bilal doesnt really consider what he does quite enough. its a shame. if he had a dr dre (anyone who doesnt think fast lane or sally are two of bilals best songs needs to have their ears checked) or questlove co-piloting him, i think he could be the artist he should be.

hes great tho dont get it twisted. but D'Angelo was also just cooler.


____

TWITTER : Heinz21st

IG : H_N_Z

there.

bilal's voice is his instrument.

Compared to his peers
==============
"There’s nothing on the album that doesn’t sound like something else. In fact, Black Messiah sounds like a bad version of Bilal’s Love Surreal. I don’t remember folks giving this amount of love to Bilal when it was a far more creative effort than D’Angelo’s latest. Meanwhile, an artist like Van Hunt has been in the trenches giving us album after album of great music. His album Popular, which was deep-sixed by Blue Note is a little known gem that is every bit as great as Voodoo. While folks have been waiting 14 years for one guy to do an album, other cats have been busting their asses giving us great music the whole while."

A familiar analogy
=======================
"D’Angelo gets to be the deadbeat dad who gets all the love by showing up bearing gifts at Christmas every couple of years, while mom is busting her ass every day taking care of you and you ungrateful children could give a shit. I don’t get why it’s acceptable for him to take 14 years to deliver this okay album. And okay for him is so not okay. I expect more from what was at one time one of the most soulful, grooving multi-instrumentalists on the scene. And with a title like Black Messiah, I want nothing short of my mind blown."

Critiquing the rhythm
=============
"A central rhythmic theme throughout the album is the heavy four-on-the-floor that was a trademark of Sly’s work with The Family Stone. The problem with it on Black Messiah is that when Sly did it there was an undercurrent of syncopated ghost notes that made it groove. The way the quarter note is presented here, it’s subdivided by straight eights, which makes it come off stiff. Sounds like the typical non-swinging jazz album of today. Ironically, the message is Black Power, but the Black part is overshadowed by a barrage of sterile sixteenth notes. This sets the tone for the first quarter of the album — “Ain’t That Easy,” “The Charade” (which sounds like a nod to Prince’s “Raspberry Beret”) and “1000 Deaths.” And the same holds true for virtually every tune on the album."

but i don't know that it has to.

in boxes of his own construction

he's a hypocrite

>in boxes of his own construction
>
>he's a hypocrite

And a lazy ass critic, "sounds like a bad version of Bilal’s Love Surreal" and Charade sounds like Raspberry Beret? GTFOH, I would imagine a musician of his caliber would have more imagination than sounding like a jilted journalist.

"his first album Brown Sugar signaled an antidote to how commercial and syrupy R&B had become by the mid-’90s...At the time, I wasn’t a big fan of Brown Sugar. I had more faith in the UK based artists like The Brand New Heavies. The moment I began to believe in R&B again was with Erykah’s Baduism."

glaring L

"We were picking up where CTI records and cats like Freddie Hubbard and George Benson left off. We were shaking off the shackles of the purist mentality adopted and perpetuated by the likes of Wynton, and now Branford Marsalis."

love CTI but Creed Taylor Incorporated (Creed Taylor is a white man btw) was overdone schmaltzy fusion often geared to WHITE sensibilities of what "jazz" was too often for Payton to even be serious here

"I listened I found no overt references to Cannonball or Duke whatsoever, nor did I see any in the liner notes. Jive, but okay."

smh lol ok

"if he would be able to capture the same magic as he had on Voodoo...I’m not saying he’s lost it, but the things that made him such a force 14 years ago are not apparent on this album."

i wanted it to aound like Voodoo and it didn't sound like Voodoo, i'm mad

"In fact, Black Messiah sounds like a bad version of Bilal’s Love Surreal. I don’t remember folks giving this amount of love to Bilal when it was a far more creative effort than D’Angelo’s latest. Meanwhile, an artist like Van Hunt..."

i know & like Bilal & Van Hunt & am mad people don't like them as much as DAngelo

"I don’t get why it’s acceptable for him to take 14 years to deliver this okay album."

i hold other artists to standards i would resent if applied to myself and also they should be more like me in their approach to their work

"And there is a huge Rock component throughout the album I take issue with. I can’t get with Black people who play Rock. Rock is the White appropriation of the Blues. The Blues didn’t need another name. There is no need to mimic the voice of the oppressor back to him."

Rock White, Rock Bad *grunt*

After listening to this album-which I dig a lot; MUCH better than VoodoO imo-4 times thus far, his criticisms sound somewhat stupid even if he's admittedly consistent and cant be beaten true to the dorky music-school student he is...

First of all, it's true that the more "grovy" tunes generally stick to the 8th note shit he is talking about (well, "Prayer" threw me off-that's twisted approach to rhythm a jazz-musician *SHOULD* appreciate on sheer principle; then again, perhaps not a square like Payton who praise CTI...), the songs with more "rocky" rhythms sure as fuck don't; "1000 deaths" doesn't exactly have that 8th note east-coast boom-bap feel. Of course, since he thinks that black people shouldn't play "rock"-and his reasonings for that seems stuck in a time-warp where Stones and Animals made millions playing Black blues; like 50 years ago-I guess he doesn't care.

Furthermore, the Ghost-note thing:well, they are called Ghost-notes for a reason-you don't hear them! Seriously, I understand what he is going at and it's a common problem past Hip-Hop (fuck, post-*disco*) but thAts the thing:D'angelo is not JUST a retro soulman; no, he's one heavily informed by (90's) Hip-Hop and its associated aesthetics which is based on loops and everything that goes with it; the free-wlowing, oonstant subtle change of rhythm that is, say, "TARGO", isn't really Hip-Hop like that (for the record, I noticed subtle changes of rhythm in severazl tracks).

What I found odd is why/how he feels "Voodoo" pulls this off better. Maybe I need to listen to ''VOOdoo" again but my memory of that album is that it was FAR more rhytmically "Hip-Hop" stereotype than this album as a whole; I guess it's in the gost-notes (seriously, I think he's talking out of his ass)...

HOWEER, I must say that the drum-fills in "Another life" as well as the Keyboard thing after the "hook" gives me a strong, wack, arena-rock/post-"Who's next" circus-trick drummer feel; I was disappointed in that tune after reading so much good things about it here and it has NOTHING to do with the composition and EERYTHING to do with the rhythm-arrangement which reminds me of some really wack rock. Then again ,the Lesson likes wack rock so I'm not surprised. Good song either way but those drum-fills? Yikes...

destructive to Black music (not music in general bc music only seems to be music to him if it's "Black")

and yes he did this in his usual snarky, disrespectful, dismissive, know-it-all tone

the guy's a tool & not very self-aware

note: love you straight calling dude a square over the CTI thing too lmao

finally i found it funny to see on the the blog page he's slamming sample based music right over to the side his live performance of Sketches of Spain CD for sale

decrying stealing music but covering an entire album & one of the most well known at that?

i found it bizarre & further evidemce of his oblivious hypocrisy

...that is based on decades of having smoke blown up their asses based on the "importance" of their artform; a luxury that was never afforded to everything from jump-blues to doo-wop to stax-soul to (insert a black pop-form that got "deserted" and just got incorporated into the general language of popular music without little interest in its roots).

Meanwhile, people actually care about 50-60 year old recordings by jazz-artists which is a luxury not afforded to ANY other once popular style besides Beatles, Dylan, Sinatra (insert WHITE act) with the exception of some blues acts but the kids aren't checking for those the way they they do Miles, Trane; Monk and Mingus very non-pop music. The reason is that it has been viewed as high art, as americas classical music (which I agree with 100% BTW); actually, this very reason is why people (not Payton himself admittedly, I guess that gives him some extra entitlement) can go to academies and study jazz-you think jazz-musicians prior to the, um, 70's had that luxury?

Yet, people like Payton are whining about jazz losing its pop-music roots and asking why it isn't more "cool" amongst the kids today when the very reason when most people today that are jazz-musicians in the first place is because of jazz being viewed as "high art" and something different than pop; people can study at the Lincoln jazz-centre, you think Ornette had that opportunity when he was playing R&B clubs and got beaten up for playing Charlie Parker-licks and destroying the groove? Yet, people who studied at Juilliard (Hi MIles!) was dissing him for not playing "black" enough? There's so much bullshit in the history of jazz it's not even funny that is related to class and shit...

All those dudes who talk this shit are just fucking assholes; either they are academy-trained musicians so far from the roots of jazz its not even funny or they are guys like Payton who might have genuine jazz-cred but fail to recognize that any attention given to him is *because* he exists outside of the pop-music epicentre and is recognized as a "serious" artist... Yet, dude feel he can comment on music rooted in Hip-Hop and even funk and think his words carry any weight just because he is a "good" (tm) musician? FOH!!!

or who thinks he is speaking for them, all evidence to the contrary

so he won't use the term "jazz" while grafting some half-assed version of Stanley Crouch onto a pro-Black scarecrow with a little "i'm relatively young & black so all the effette liberal ofays in the jazz scene will buy my hip-hop opinions even when I'm talking out my ass"

old fedora & steve harvey suit wearing cherub looking snob

2. d has a self destructive and melancholy quality that people are drawn to, sorta the amy winehouse effect.

about the self destructive quality.

timing as well.

blial never has had that song and also accessible is another issue.

D'angelo is catchy enough for the club,partying to and also getting high to.

Blial you gotta listen digest and think.

Mumblo and Pooty tang what a battle??

Amazing range, incredible dynamics and great clarity.
Also the ability to emote every note.
Nothing is wasted with Bilal.
He puts his instrument to use.

Only problem is he does not have many memorable songs.
Writing is his weakest trait.

I wish he had his own "Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis" team
Shopping for beats and doing vocal exercises on them is not realising his full potential
He should be a marquee artist not a nostalgic neo-soul leftover
He is way too talented for that

Martin Luther has it all.

Lilke, at the level of Lady, How does it feel, hell even Devil's Pie?

All the world knows is "Soul Sista" which I remember hearing he hates for various reasons. I liked Sometimes and tracks like "Reminisce" for sure, but I haven't heard many songs that I feel would have been hits even if D'Angelo made em (hypothetically). And for the most part, non-cult type fans are drawn to hits, along with the overall image.

White Turns to Grey and possibly Lord Don't Let It from the shelved Love For Sale are songs that I think black radio could have eaten up had they been released. Now, there are a couple of songs on Airtight's Revenge that could have gained some traction on alt radio if Bilal weren't black lol. Mainly Levels, Restart and All Matter.

And with his latest project, which seemed like an intentional return to "soul", Butterfly had the most potential; but I don't know if that got any play on the adult urban stations that play Kem all day. I don't know if they touched the lead single Back to Love either. He just released a video for the song Slipping Away, which is a strong song, but it might be too "sleepy" to get much burn.




>Lilke, at the level of Lady, How does it feel, hell even
>Devil's Pie?
>
>All the world knows is "Soul Sista" which I remember hearing
>he hates for various reasons. I liked Sometimes and tracks
>like "Reminisce" for sure, but I haven't heard many songs that
>I feel would have been hits even if D'Angelo made em
>(hypothetically). And for the most part, non-cult type fans
>are drawn to hits, along with the overall image.
>
>


......................................

https://soundcloud.com/jasper_brown

http://jasperbrown.bandcamp.com/

Everybody I put on this song loved it and Im not talking about neo soul lovers only. Yeah it's weird and he would never have been a hit but he could have gotten some radio attention and give Bilal a larger fan base.

The post asked why hasn't Bilal gotten the same ATTENTION as D'angelo.

And people are really up here trying to argue Bilal is as good as D'angelo.

Comprehension is completely gone.

He, admittedly, AIMS to be such.
He has soul origins, but even soul might as well be alternative in 2014/15.
Someone mentioned above that he's making music we've never heard before.
This is true. This also makes him "inaccessible" in such a depressingly formulaic climate.
I tend to share the opinion that Bilal is just as talented and, truth be told, more creative
than D'angelo (not sure how anyone could deny the "more creative" part), because
Bilal COMPLETELY CREATES something new. As I stated before, Black Messiah sounds
like Sylvester Nelson & Revolutionary Family. I really dig it, but it's an obvious stew of
influences with a personal spin on it. You can't say that about Bilal's stuff. He really does CREATE.

smh i've seen it all

Especially on Black Messiah. As stated, I like the album. I don't think all derivative
work is bad work. 1000 jacks the shit outta Sly & The Fam (possibly my fave group of
all time), and I still like it.
I'm also not saying D'angelo hasn't EVER created a sound, but Bilal is very daring
and courageous with the stuff he does... which causes people to have to acquaint themselves
with his sound.
No way you can tell me "Charade", "Prayer", "Untitled", or even "When We Get By"
sound completely new. These are familiar styles if not outright copies of other artists.

can be placed in a box simply because of his aesthetic

i mean you're talking about the cat like he's Mayer Hawthorne or something

bizarre

>1000 jacks the shit outta Sly & The Fam
>(possibly my fave group of
>all time), and I still like it.

yeah, i can def see the sly comparisons. but "1000 deaths" is harder and louder than anything on "riot."

>"Charade"

i initially thought "diamonds and pearls" era prince. specifially "money don't matte 2nite". but after i got really got into "charade" i realized those were just surface comparisons.

>"Prayer"

man, i ain't never heard a song like "prayer"! those severely drunk ass drums??? no chorus??? which song sounds like this???

>"Untitled"

sure. definitely a controversy era prince tribute. bass popping on a ballad, that riff, etc.

>"When We Get By"

kinda thought so, but i can't identify any particular song that sounds like it. jazzy, shuffle song, with drums up front like that. it definitely had a hip-hop feel to it, even though none of the parts were hip-hoppy. any similar songs?

every once in a while i hear some specific elements that are tributes/derivatives of earlier stuff, but the sum of the whole is somthing new. i think "ain't that easy" is a good example of this: funkadelic vox, "raspberry beret" clap, etc. but again, it's the alchemy of these elements that make it into something new.

now, here are some d'angelo songs i've never ever ever heard anything similar to before: "jonz" "SDMF" "dreamin eyes" "the root" "devil's pie" "chicken grease" "greatday" "africa"

and truly unique d'angelo element is his singing voice. no one has his tone, his enunciation, his cadence, coupled with his layers, vox arrangements, etc. not prince, not phillip bailey, not marvin, not al green, not james brown, not aaron hall, not...etc. and if any new singer comes along and tries anything similar, we'll think "he's channeling d'angelo!"

>>1000 jacks the shit outta Sly & The Fam
>>(possibly my fave group of
>>all time), and I still like it.
>
>yeah, i can def see the sly comparisons. but "1000 deaths" is
>harder and louder than anything on "riot."


Well it's released in 2014 and has the benefit of better technology and Hip Hop
influence, so "louder" and "harder" would seem more of a result of those...
still "Luv N Haight" is pretty loud and hard


>>"Charade"
>
>i initially thought "diamonds and pearls" era prince.
>specifially "money don't matte 2nite". but after i got really
>got into "charade" i realized those were just surface
>comparisons.


Lol... I really wanna say you're bordering on making it hard to take you serious by
saying it's only "surface comparisons". It's a Prince song through and through from
the guitar melody and tone to the melody of the song itself to his "all he wanted was
a chance to talk" ad lib... oh and the clap just puts the icing on the cake. I don't even
know what Prince era to put it in... just anytime after 1986, this is a great Prince impression.
So good that I like it.


>>"Prayer"
>
>man, i ain't never heard a song like "prayer"! those severely
>drunk ass drums??? no chorus??? which song sounds like
>this???



This is another heavily influenced Prince song. The guitar melody and tone strike again,
along with the clap. Of course a clap alone doesn't spell P-r-i-n-c-e, but when you've
got so many other Prince elements running through your music, it's easy to see
where you're coming from.
No chorus doesn't really create something new, lol. Drunk drums either. I guess
these are things that add his own touch to the Prince influence though.
But again, I really like this song too.


>>"Untitled"
>
>sure. definitely a controversy era prince tribute. bass
>popping on a ballad, that riff, etc.



Man if you didn't see this one, I was gonna give up.



>>"When We Get By"
>
>kinda thought so, but i can't identify any particular song
>that sounds like it. jazzy, shuffle song, with drums up front
>like that. it definitely had a hip-hop feel to it, even
>though none of the parts were hip-hoppy. any similar songs?


I was gonna explain, but I realized you did it in your next paragraph...


>every once in a while i hear some specific elements that are
>tributes/derivatives of earlier stuff, but the sum of the
>whole is somthing new. i think "ain't that easy" is a good
>example of this: funkadelic vox, "raspberry beret" clap, etc.
>but again, it's the alchemy of these elements that make it
>into something new.


One could look at it like that. I don't think derivative work always sounds like
one particular song... in fact, I think that's pretty rare. It's just that once you take
so many elements of a particular sound or the take them without altering them too
much, it just sounds like something they would have made, if that makes sense.
In more down-to-earth language, you're jacking their style.
Take for instance Robin Thicke's "Got 2 Be Down" ft. Faith Evans. His vocal stylings
there are obviously derivative of Marvin Gaye. What particular Marvin Gaye song?
I'd have to name plenty, because that's just Marvin's whole style being jacked.
That also happens to be one of Thicke's best songs tho, imo lol.


>now, here are some d'angelo songs i've never ever ever heard
>anything similar to before: "jonz" "SDMF" "dreamin eyes" "the
>root" "devil's pie" "chicken grease" "greatday" "africa"


Yeah like I said, I'm not saying he's never made anything that wasn't biting someone
else's style. He does create... just not habitually as Bilal does. Let's not forget that
the Bilal comparison is why this convo is being had. In light of that, it could be said
that D'angelo knows how to temper his experimentation enough to keep it relatable
to the common person. I'd be lying if I said I don't listen to Bilal and wish he'd just
make a straight-forward song without SO MUCH experimentation sometimes.
For instance "Back To Love" frustrates me STILL, because the beat is there, the voice
is there, but the way he's singing the verses damn near off key... I'm just like WHY?
*sigh* The rest of the song is perfect... it's just stuff like that that keeps me from
going back to his music as often as I'd like to.
I say all that to say that I don't think it's a bad thing that D doesn't create as much
as Bilal. I think Bilal would be better off NOT creating something new every time he
opens his mouth to sing, because a voice as great as his is needed on some traditional
sounds that reach the masses. I mean why is John Legend representing Black music
right now while Sam Smith remakes Whitney Houston songs? It makes no sense lol.
Our great singers are in the basement experimenting. Cmon son.


>and truly unique d'angelo element is his singing voice. no
>one has his tone, his enunciation, his cadence, coupled with
>his layers, vox arrangements, etc. not prince, not phillip
>bailey, not marvin, not al green, not james brown, not aaron
>hall, not...etc. and if any new singer comes along and tries
>anything similar, we'll think "he's channeling d'angelo!"


Lol, I like how you named 7 singers who sing him under the table, and that could
lend itself to why he relies on things like cadence and half enunciation as means
of making himself unique... I'm not sure... but at any rate, the unintelligible cadence
is unique... under-enunciation has been a thing way before D'angelo tho.
Anita Baker was the queen of that when I was younger.

remind me to never take any opinion you have on music seriously, old cramming the facts into your reality ass mofo lol

and here your childish bitch ass comes with some unwarranted
and unprovoked insult. Can't even disagree respectfully with some
of you low-level muthafuckas. Die 1000 Deaths u little insecure coward.

have a happy holiday & don't be so sensitive & overreact all the damn time, it's faggy & immature

try a little self awareness & acceptance that as much as you think you know you don't really know shit

New name, same dumb shit. For a while there, you were doing ok.
Can't hide your disease too long I guess.
Get help.

i say remind me not to take your music opinion seriously & that you are trying to fit the facts to your narrative...assholish a bit, i agree

you call me a "low level mothafucka" & suggest that i die

i retort w/ an OE style pussy joke & admittedly use harsh language to make light of how mad you got at my original "dis"

you make light of my medical condition which i've struggled with my whole life & again suggest that i should die


i'm sure people see it


sorry tho & sincerely wish Happy Holiday to you & yours, these are heavy times & i pray for us all

Then when I kill the ant with a sledgehammer, you cryin foul on some throw stones and
hide your hands junk.
I don't need your sugar-coated recap.
Get the entire fuck outta here and take your medication.

i think we'll have a lot of "agree to disagree"ments, so i'll just address the below...

but first, one point i forgot to make was how i know that an artist has made something truly unique--it's when i think "oh, this new song sounds just like (that artist)!" recently, when i heard st vincent's "dilletante" and beyonce's "rocket" my first thought was "oh shit, they're making a d'angelo-sounding song!!!" i thought the same thing when i listened to some of the deeper cuts on john mayer's "continuum". there were no other artists to associate those songs with. that made me realize how unique and influential "voodoo" was, 6 to 8 to 14 years later. i still don't think any record before it sounds anything like it.

okay...

>One could look at it like that. I don't think derivative work
>always sounds like
>one particular song... in fact, I think that's pretty rare.
>It's just that once you take
>so many elements of a particular sound or the take them
>without altering them too
>much, it just sounds like something they would have made, if
>that makes sense.
>In more down-to-earth language, you're jacking their style.
>Take for instance Robin Thicke's "Got 2 Be Down" ft. Faith
>Evans. His vocal stylings
>there are obviously derivative of Marvin Gaye. What
>particular Marvin Gaye song?
>I'd have to name plenty, because that's just Marvin's whole
>style being jacked.
>That also happens to be one of Thicke's best songs tho, imo
>lol.
>

yeah i instantly thought "marvin!!!" on the first note thicke sang on that song. even down to the bongos! (there's bongos in that song, right? it's been a while...)

sooo...given the above, i still don't see how d'angelo is any more or less "derivative" than bilal. both pull other elements into their unique sound--to the same degree. both have unique singing voices that are unmistakably them. but unless we come up with some kind of metric to measure this shit, we'll still be disagreeing...which is all good!

granted, i'm working off of 3/4 of bilal's catologue (had "love surreal" for about a wee...wait a minute, EVEN HIS ALBUM TITLE IS DERIVATIVE!!!...and i've always had "1stBS" and "L4S"). but unless he's singning in some made-up language over music that barely makes sense, then i'm gonna assume it's still the same amount of deriving (but even that's not new...sigur ros already did that on their first 2 LPs).


>Lol, I like how you named 7 singers who sing him under the
>table, and that could
>lend itself to why he relies on things like cadence and half
>enunciation as means
>of making himself unique... I'm not sure... but at any rate,
>the unintelligible cadence
>is unique... under-enunciation has been a thing way before
>D'angelo tho.
>Anita Baker was the queen of that when I was younger.

i don't think his stylings are a crutch; another agree to disagree...but fuck that, none of them dudes "singing d'angelo under the table"!!! haha

but Aaron Hall doesn't sing him under the table? LOL. Aite.
Aaron's bonafied... man nevermind.
Nah but c'mon son! THIS GUY? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TW48PHNA7tI#t=1m25s
And that's recent shit, cat is 50 right now.
Nah man. D will NEVER see Aaron Hall on no singing.
I'm not even gonna touch Marvin Gaye or Phillip Bailey on some "Reasons" shit.
Hell D' remade "Can't Hide Love" and wasn't even fuckin with Maurice White, lol.
(no shot, Maurice is one of the most underrated vocalists EVER, so I understand
D's struggle).
If I recall correctly, he had the background do Phillip's part.
ANYWAY, on to the rest...



>sooo...given the above, i still don't see how d'angelo is any
>more or less "derivative" than bilal. both pull other
>elements into their unique sound--to the same degree.


But you said when you heard "Charade", you were trying to figure out what Prince
era that came from. I mean, if anything lets you know it's derivative, your own gut should.
Maybe you get that often from Bilal too... I don't tho. I'll hear that some music
sounds like another artist or that one "Slyde" song, but the tribute actually IS in
the title there, unlike with "A Love Surreal". That's just title. Let's talk MUSIC.
But again, I'M NOT SAYING D' DOESN'T CREATE, AT ALL. I'm saying Bilal just does
it way more, even to his own detriment, imo. I'd actually like to hear him be less
creative and roll just a little more in the tradition of his forefathers and mothers.
I'd find a great deal of his music more listenable, personally. I often want to stop
Bilaling and just do what seems to give him the heeby jeebies.... something predictable.
D' does it, and I play his shit out. I feel like yall are coming at me like I'm trashing
D'angelo when it's quite the opposite. The discussion is who's the more creative artist.

i'm not tryna be a dick. but i'd just like to hear things from your perspective.

>But again, I'M NOT SAYING D' DOESN'T CREATE, AT ALL. I'm
>saying Bilal just does
>it way more, even to his own detriment, imo.

okay, what are some songs where bilal creates something new? i remember "second child" struck me as something quite new when i first heard it. "sometimes" too. really not getting that feeling on "a love surreal" though.

or even on a more technical level, are there any bilal songs where he uses some new chord progressions? vocal techniques/phrasings? (probably a lot there)
or some patches of his own creation?--d'angelo has been doing the latter since "brown sugar".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0nmSy5tY5s

That's really *not* the only real answer though. That's a bullshit answer that you're playing as a strategic move to justify your own (subjective) belief that he is a "more creative" artist, something that can't be quantified, at least not in any substantial degree.

>Someone mentioned above that he's making music we've never
>heard before.
>This is true. This also makes him "inaccessible" in such a
>depressingly formulaic climate.

See above. People are talking like Bilal's on some John Cage shit... he's really not. He's not *that* "weird." I agree that his shit doesn't fit contemporary formats, but it's not because his music is *soooooo* next-level that nobody, like, you know, *really gets him*....

>I tend to share the opinion that Bilal is just as talented
>and, truth be told, more creative
>than D'angelo (not sure how anyone could deny the "more
>creative" part), because
>Bilal COMPLETELY CREATES something new. As I stated before,
>Black Messiah sounds
>like Sylvester Nelson & Revolutionary Family. I really dig
>it, but it's an obvious stew of
>influences with a personal spin on it. You can't say that
>about Bilal's stuff. He really does CREATE.

I think I see what you're hearing here in terms of "derivative," but it's a terribly imprecise word for a rather awful measure of comparison. I think you're right that you can hear D's influences more immediately, more clearly, for sure. But D's not playing an imitation game in his work (at least beyond Brown Sugar) ... the influences are filtered, reworked, and ultimately spun into something strikingly new. (For all the claims of derivative that folks like Payton might make, there really aren't many songs out there that *actually* sound like anything D's put together on Black...).

Ultimately, they make two very different types of creations. And ultimately, they are two very different types of artists. It's depressing that an accomplished musician resorted to x > y arguments and in the process overlooked that fact. This thread is about as unnecessary as they come, but the Lesson has always liked a good x is better than y post, even if know (deep down in our heart of hearts) that ranking artists that most acknowledge are good is a fool's errand... fun, maybe, but far from "intelligent music discussion" ... precisely because you have to rely on attempts to measure things that cannot (and should not!) be measured (like "creativity").

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

No he is not totally out there but he's not a normal cool music nerd like D'angelo ...

>That's really *not* the only real answer though. That's a
>bullshit answer that you're playing as a strategic move to
>justify your own (subjective) belief that he is a "more
>creative" artist, something that can't be quantified, at least
>not in any substantial degree.


C'mon man. I'm not here to justify anything. I'm referring to an interview about
his nomination for Grammy with the Glasper Experiment. He was JUICED to be
considered an Alternative artist... so much so that he said he'd finally hit his mark
as a musician. That's what he'd been aiming for his whole career. This is all I'm
talking about. I really don't have anything to justify, as his Alternative aims and
classification are a FACT.



>See above. People are talking like Bilal's on some John Cage
>shit... he's really not. He's not *that* "weird." I agree that
>his shit doesn't fit contemporary formats, but it's not
>because his music is *soooooo* next-level that nobody, like,
>you know, *really gets him*....



Read my comments in here, man. I'm definitely not saying he's "next-level".
I've said about 2 or 3 times that his creativity is to his detriment as far as I'm concerned.
The important this here is that we agree that his music doesn't fit into contemporary formats.
His music doesn't really fit into ANY format, and he prefers it that way. I wish it would
a lot of the time. I mentioned the example of "Back To Love" elsewhere.



>I think I see what you're hearing here in terms of
>"derivative," but it's a terribly imprecise word for a rather
>awful measure of comparison. I think you're right that you can
>hear D's influences more immediately, more clearly, for sure.
>But D's not playing an imitation game in his work (at least
>beyond Brown Sugar) ... the influences are filtered, reworked,
>and ultimately spun into something strikingly new.


This is kinda where you lose me (most with Black Messiah), because I can't pick
one song on there that sounds like something STRIKINGLY new. Above, a cat admitted
that he was trying to pick which Prince era "Charade" came from, but then decided
it sounded completely new... I mean, c'mon. Ultimately, I love the hell out of the
song, so it doesn't matter one way or the other.


>(For all the claims of derivative that folks like Payton might make,
>there really aren't many songs out there that *actually* sound
>like anything D's put together on Black...).


I addressed this "one particular song" notion elsewhere as well. In a nutshell, you
can jack a style without jacking a particular song. I mean which Tupac song was
Lil Zane jacking? Did it matter? You just knew that was Pac's style. Charade is Prince's style
as was Untitled... which song does Untitled sound like though?


>Ultimately, they make two very different types of creations.
>And ultimately, they are two very different types of artists.
>It's depressing that an accomplished musician resorted to x >
>y arguments and in the process overlooked that fact. This
>thread is about as unnecessary as they come, but the Lesson
>has always liked a good x is better than y post, even if know
>(deep down in our heart of hearts) that ranking artists that
>most acknowledge are good is a fool's errand... fun, maybe,
>but far from "intelligent music discussion" ... precisely
>because you have to rely on attempts to measure things that
>cannot (and should not!) be measured (like "creativity").


I agree with a large chunk of this. And that's what we're doing, having a fun discussion...
at least it's fun for me, until people turn into 12 yr olds with namecalling and other
ridiculousness. I mean, I interact with human beings OFFLINE, so a friendly disagreement
is fun stuff to me. *shrugs*

sounds like nothing....

and its the best thing i heard in a minute

well...maybe it sounds like a tribe called quest practiced instruments for 15 years and decided to recreate their midnight marauders vibe live....and added some gospel feel and a mumbling but beautiful falsetto....


i kid i kid

and the funny thing is if she made the song, it would be much more sonically rich.
Yet, she gets little love around these parts.

I agree that it's a dope song tho.


>well...maybe it sounds like a tribe called quest practiced
>instruments for 15 years and decided to recreate their
>midnight marauders vibe live....and added some gospel feel and
>a mumbling but beautiful falsetto....

lol

!

edit: like a lot .... as much as you could disagree while still being respectful :)

>Above, a cat admitted
>that he was trying to pick which Prince era "Charade" came
>from, but then decided
>it sounded completely new... I mean, c'mon. Ultimately, I
>love the hell out of the
>song, so it doesn't matter one way or the other.

i said the prince similarities were "surface comparisons," meaning that ultimately, i concluded that sitar thingy sounded SIMILAR to shit prince used, and that my initial reaction to "charade" sounding like "money don't matter 2nite" were way off (bassline, pattern, etc were nothing like it!).

just some clarification...i never said "charade" sounded "completely new".

except that d'angelo is a great artist. black messiah is really
good. and people saying that bilal doesn't have memorable
songs?!...mofos are delusional. he's an alternative ARTIST.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
instagram:
http://instagram.com/0kayndc

"There is much temptation to use what has worked before,
even when it may exceed its effective scope."

"Roll me further bitch"

1) No Untitled
2) No Questlove hype train
3) No Voodoo tour

>2) No Questlove hype train
?uest hyped the shit outta him 2..He was mad they didn't get to Vodoo 1st Born second and he right

Interscope fucked Bilal up..then not rereleasing Love for sale.. they killed him.

>
>>2) No Questlove hype train
>?uest hyped the shit outta him 2..He was mad they didn't get
>to Vodoo 1st Born second and he right
>
>Interscope fucked Bilal up..then not rereleasing Love for
>sale.. they killed him.
>

Yeah - Questlove was *all* over the place talking about Bilal for the first album... talking about hearing him improv on the street corner or something like that when they first met (I think), and going apeshit over him. A lot of this *is* about Interscope really fucking with the momentum built by 1st...

-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

it's unfortunate how uneven that album is. 'a love surreal' is terrific, though, and is his best album by far imo.

i just saw bilal perform the album live in a small club in prague and he killed it.

We obviously disagree on our feelings about the music on Black Messiah.
Funny thing is that we agree that it's extremely derivative. I just happen to still like it.
We agree that there should have been some mention of Adderly or Duke in the liner
notes, give then title of the album.
We also disagree which album is D'angelo's best.
But I gotta appreciate that he speaks on Black music from a Black perspective.
We have wayyyy to many people rating us and dissecting us from NON-Black perspectives.
This guy can also give truly informed historical and musical perspectives.

While I was familair with Bilal before this thread and knew what he 'generally* sounded like, it's really not the same thing. Dude is one of thOse self-consciously clever, 'jazzy', post-Omar vocalists. Very sophisticated and smart but even on fucking ''VOODOO", D'angelo sounded more forceful, physical and flat-out visceral than this dude.

I can understand why people dig dude but it's not my thing at all whereas D'angelo always been right up my alley. And it has nothing to do with my old-school definition of good soul and funk either even if I guess you could find some shallow comparisons in Gil Scott Hron and others musically. If anyone can recommend some Bilal that actually doesn't sound like music-school noodling, I'll be glad to take it.

Basically, I do not give a flying fuck about neo-soul and I didn't even think ''Voodoo" was THAT good; yet, I care bout this guy, his music appeals to me whereas the likes of Bilal etc. leaves me cold. Maybe that's the very answer to the question; that D'angelo actually appeals to people outside of the core demographic.

As for Van Hunt, I REALLY need to hear more than the lame funk-rock/"alt" shit I've heard from dude which is very little admittedly...

Bilal was sold as a cool soul artist at the begining of his career and his music was first directed to people that didn't want to hear some weird experimentation shit and some crazy ass live performances. IMO that was the first problem with Bilal, he could't be tamed and threw a lot of people off when he started showing who he really was to the public he was first marketed to. He could have had some more attention (not as much as D'angelo but some more) but he wouldn't/couldn't compromise and act like his "first public" would've liked him to act. Also it feels to me that he had missed or wasted all the opportunity that were given to him to get attention (TV appareances, ect) and that's a real problem, he doesn't know how to adapt or he doesn't want to adapt to different audiences.

Then came the whole "Love For Sale" drama, the album was a good departure from his debut, it was left but not too weird, challenging but still accessible to his former fan base but it got leaked and Bilal stoped doing music for a while. He did capitalized on the leak after since he toured a lot on the strenght of that unreleased album but he kind of missed his momentum with this shelved album : he lost the rights on theses songs, didn't make any money on them, didn't gain any "official industry" attention.

When he officially came back with Airtight's Revenge he definitely lost a lot of the attention that he could've gotten with Love For Sale. Imo this album was too far from his former fan base tastes (the original neo soul lover, OKP type of listener, ect) so they just stoped caring about him. Of course the album was praised by the critics but this is not really the attention we're talking about here. The Love For Sale and Airtight's Revenge episode are why he lost a lot of attention. And he kind of said "fuck it!" after this episode and got even more weird than he already was (musically).

D'angelo created a movement, stayed coherent with his former sound, succeed in challenging his fan base but not too much. He was always more tamed and smooth than Bilal and he was there before him. Add to that, that Bilal's vocals are weird, that his sense of what sounds good or not is weird, that some of his songs are weird, that the man himself is weird and you have your answer.

>Add to that, that Bilal's vocals are weird,
>that his sense of what sounds good or not is weird, that some
>of his songs are weird, that the man himself is weird and you
>have your answer.

Does anyone have a link or can provide an upload of Bilal performing Fast Lane on Jay Leno please?
I've been looking everywhere for this performance

LOL

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=10gh8nl&s=3#.VJoQpsAOA

His 'Fast Lane' performance. When I first saw this I thought, "LOL NO WONDER HE DON'T SELL RECORDS!" He was my first solo concert though and a few other gems.

Definitely glad to have him around and performing and recording on the real. (I'm pretty hyped for the album with Adrian Younge. I think he'll benefit from a cinematic score, esp. given his narrative style).

Thank you so much. I can't wait to get to my PC to see this.

I just remember him hulking out and being simultaneously amazed at how funky and hilarious it was. Also worried about how much coke he must've been doing

that pretty much sums it up. bilal weird as fuck. love him but yeah

dude was definitely having coke dreams with that performance. dude was harlem shaking and screaming and gettin all bugg-eyed

probably because I watched the whole thing this time.
He sounded cool once he stopped doing that extra'd out falsetto, but still being outlandish
as fuck. It's pretty obvious that he wasn't lying when he said he always wanted to be
considered Alternative.

We're talking about 'meeting people halfway' right? What 'normal' music listener saw this and thought 'man, this sounds great...I'd love to hear more'?

Again, most of the more successful artists that cats bring up when answering 'who are your influenceseses' had to lay low for a while before showing up with their 'fast lane' songs.

And take in mind, I buy anything Bilal comes out with. But that's me. I'm okay with cats taking some liberties since they are artists.

>LOL
>
>http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=10gh8nl&s=3#.VJoQpsAOA
>
>His 'Fast Lane' performance. When I first saw this I thought,
>"LOL NO WONDER HE DON'T SELL RECORDS!" He was my first solo
>concert though and a few other gems.
>
>Definitely glad to have him around and performing and
>recording on the real. (I'm pretty hyped for the album with
>Adrian Younge. I think he'll benefit from a cinematic score,
>esp. given his narrative style).

.

She was asking what was new out that she'd like and I told her my Boy Bilal is on Jay Leno tonight. Watch it. Yep, he lost a sale that night.

Since 1976

that got me to really dig him as an artist..

lol..

I dunno...er'body looks for different stuff.. but back then.....I mean he's still a bomb live performer...but back then he had an unhinged element to him that I really dug, and still do..

As much as I think Bilal is creative and courageous, he also has songs where I'm like
"cmon son", often BECAUSE of his experimental nature. So, alotta times, it's something
I respect more than I enjoy.

D'angelo will try something new, but he won't jump off the cliff with it. He doesn't hate
tradition enough to throw it out. Whereas Bilal will tell his forefathers "fuck yo couch",
D'angelo will ghost-produce for them and perform the song himself.

In a nutshell, D'angelo doesn't try to reinvent the wheel like Bilal does, and I think that
keeps him from the WTF moments that I have with Bilal. Bilal's new wheels don't roll sometimes, for me.

back in the Black Lily days

He is a great performer but i'm not a fan of his voice, not a fan of the screaming.

His sound is not as universal as D'aneglo.

What about Remy Shand!!!

Bilal & Amel Larrieux are 2 of the best singers of our generation
with amazing vocal ranges (nearing Minnie Riperton) that their more commercially successful peers like Trey Songz and Rihanna would be envious of, but they don't get the accolades nor recognition they deserve. Because of the way the music industry is set up now, singers don't need major record labels to get their music to the people. Bilal is a better singer than D'Angelo because he's an Opera singer/jazz singer. His operatic voice and vocal choices are dynamic. Bilal could just sing acapella and it would mesmerize every listener.

Both Bilal & Amel Larrieux have longevity and artistic integrity and are not afraid to experiment with their sound and musical production. Their eclectic discographies are filled with songs you never hear on the radio. Amel Larrieux came closest to mainstream success when she teamed with producer Bryce Wilson to form Groove Theory; their big radio song "Tell Me" is a classic. Bilal's work with The Roots, Common, & Robert Glasper seems to be his closest to mainstream success. Neither Amel Larrieux nor Bilal have won a Grammy, while lesser skilled singers have won several, really showing the lack of credibility of the Grammy's.

Isn't it amazing how Donny Hathaway and Marvin Gaye only won 1 Grammy each, Minnie Riperton and Frankie Beverly & Maze never won Grammys, but Beyonce, Rihanna, and Usher have won several Grammys?

>
>Isn't it amazing how Donny Hathaway and Marvin Gaye only won 1
>Grammy each, Minnie Riperton and Frankie Beverly & Maze never
>won Grammys, but Beyonce, Rihanna, and Usher have won several
>Grammys?

not really amazing

mike jackson is the dividing line....he made black music "popular" in the pop sense of the award

he was the 1st on MTV etc

so after him.... a lot more black artists get grammies

>>
>>Isn't it amazing how Donny Hathaway and Marvin Gaye only won
>1
>>Grammy each, Minnie Riperton and Frankie Beverly & Maze
>never
>>won Grammys, but Beyonce, Rihanna, and Usher have won
>several
>>Grammys?
>
>not really amazing
>
>mike jackson is the dividing line....he made black music
>"popular" in the pop sense of the award
>
>he was the 1st on MTV etc
>
>so after him.... a lot more black artists get grammies

The reason why I think it's amazing is though great, Beyonce, Rihanna, and Usher are no where near as excellent as Marvin Gaye, Donny Hathaway, Minnie Riperton, & Frankie Beverly & Maze. I know the music industry has changed, but Beyonce has like 15 or 16 Grammys and Usher & Rihanna have a crazy amount of Grammys too. Rihanna can barely sing. It's like anyone can win a Grammy now. The Recording Industry gives them out like candy. It just really shows how meaningless the Grammy's are.

.

That analogy is on point too and its not ironic that both artist are Philly natives.

she's solid...but her song and performance catalog are no where near what Bilal has....