it's only been an accessory since.

the problem with calling lyricism a fad is that it never caught on. ever. it was always a niche thing, which for the most part hip-hop was except for its three waves of commercial success, all of which were facilitated by consumers who treated it as a fad.

*edit* I keep changing the peak date... don't have the time to pinpoint it at the moment.. may come back.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

His mainstream success was primarily the result of race, (unfortunately) the blonde hair/goofball shtick, his corny lead singles, etc. That type of shit. Lyricism was a distant like 5th or 6th on the list of reasons he was as popular as he was.

eminem's initial success was based on his lyrics.

there have been countless White acts before and after him who have failed to resonate with White or Black audiences.

the difference with eminem was the shock-rap angle and his actual talent as a "lyricist", which was evident before he affiliated himself with dr. dre.

Admittedly, because he didn't have the talent, but also because Diddy didn't know hot to promote him as well as Dre did. There were a lot of trial and error white rappers. Eminem just had the perfect storm of talent, timing and backing to blow up like he did.

>eminem's initial success was based on his lyrics.

No it wasn't. His initial success was based off "My Name Is..." which isn't exactly a lyrical onslaught, as well as "Guilty Conscience" which isn't, either. Those two huge singles showcased the goofball antics of a white kid with blonde hair and a great sense of humor, who had Dr. Dre's co-sign (Dre appeared in the video for the former, and featured in the latter..and produced both). Neither of these songs were outstanding showcases of his lyricism.


>there have been countless White acts before and after him who
>have failed to resonate with White or Black audiences.

See above.


>"stan" isn't one of the biggest and most widely known rap
>songs in the history of rap music because of affiliation,
>gimmicks.

Right. But there was a lot of time and music released before this song, and during that time we got the goofball Eminem.

but dre didn't exploit that, it was just part of the package and not the part that majority even recognized as a factor.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

that first wave of just don't give a fuck/hi my name is/guilty conscience/role model/forgot about dre.

he didn't start getting the degree of "mtv fans" he would get for the remainder of his career until the real slim shady.

with you. His goofball antics, being white, etc. were able to be of service to
him because he had talent as a rapper and the skill to use his lyricism to the
end of entertaining.

especially the lyrical type
if they were listening just based on lyrics
alot of artist would have eaten alot during Em's heyday

lyrics are a peg on his ladder to success but its not a primary reason

yes, eminem penetrated demographics outside of "hip-hop" fans, which is how and why he is still successful today.

but in that first year of his mainstream career, he wasn't nearly as successful as he would become from the release of marshall mathers lp to say d12 - devil's night.

there was a culture of fandom in which eminem was born out of that loved and lauded lyricism.

i would say this, as a priority to the acts making it and the fans who graded rappers based on their lyricism abilities peaked in 2000.

i mean canibus sold 500k records in 1998, and then sold another 350k in 2000.

acts like big pun, ras-kass, xzibit, pharoahe monch, dead prez all had careers in rap music... a few short years later they would be distant memories and the idea of them releasing something on a major label would be inconceivable.

think about it © Special Ed

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>yes, eminem penetrated demographics outside of "hip-hop"
>fans, which is how and why he is still successful today.
>
>but in that first year of his mainstream career, he wasn't
>nearly as successful as he would become from the release of
>marshall mathers lp to say d12 - devil's night.

Devils Night was MMLP lite and had some good shit on it
his image around that time with beef also contributed to sales


>there was a culture of fandom in which eminem was born out of
>that loved and lauded lyricism.

and can we just admit that is a part...but not the only part


>i would say this, as a priority to the acts making it and the
>fans who graded rappers based on their lyricism abilities
>peaked in 2000.

graded as far as sales or critical acclaim?

>i mean canibus sold 500k records in 1998, and then sold
>another 350k in 2000.

again there are external factors contributing to that as well
the sole reason for those sales is not lyricism

>acts like big pun, ras-kass, xzibit, pharoahe monch, dead prez
>all had careers in rap music... a few short years later they
>would be distant memories and the idea of them releasing
>something on a major label would be inconceivable.

dont really understand this section
most rappers after a few years are distant memories

people weren't in love with his lyrics.

i'll give you 8 Mile tried to sell his lyricism to the masses, but at the end of the day that was practically parodic of lyricism.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

and by ate i mean had at least half the success Em had.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

but there are plenty of "lyrical" rappers in the late 90's - 2000 who had careers with varying degrees of mainstream success who by 2002 would never have been able to get a release date.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

when you're tethering the conversation to success, and you're talking about one of the most successful musical pop. acts of all-time...
we really can't compare eminem to his contemporaries with that set of criteria because he was wildly more successful due to outside factors i already addressed.

however, there are more than 5 commercial acts in the year 2000 who would be considered "lyricists" who made careers at that time when it was trendy to do that in your lyrics.

like i've said, a few short years later these same acts and their material that was "mainstream" a scant 18 months earlier would be on the outside looking in due to a change in trends.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

eminem
outkast
black thought
canibus
pharoahe monch
big punisher
big l
d.i.t.c.
mos def
dead prez
redman
xzibit
ras-kass

and these are just major label acts.
the "underground" in 2000 was pretty much exclusively focused on "lyricism".

>canibus

he was an afterthought by 2000.

>big l

he was dead. RIP Lamont

>d.i.t.c.

nobody cared about them outside of the die-hard fans. that would include me.

>ras-kass

Ras peak was 1995-1996

>eminem

see above

>outkast

biggest hit had no rapping.

>black thought

biggest hit had the r&b hook

>canibus

no biggest hit

>pharoahe monch

biggest hit based on catchy phrase and beat.

>big punisher

biggest hit had the r&b hook

>big l

no biggest hit

>d.i.t.c.

no biggest hit

>mos def

biggest hit had no rapping

>dead prez

biggest hit best known for the chanting chorus.

>redman

no biggest hit (*ducks*)

>xzibit

dr dre cosigns go along way

>ras-kass

no biggest hit with a dr dre cosign albeit a recycled one.

>and these are just major label acts.
>the "underground" in 2000 was pretty much exclusively focused
>on "lyricism".

again what i'm saying is that lyricism was always a factor in hip-hop internally (until recently). the fads or trendy things about hip-hop though were never centered around lyricism even if there were lyrical players at the time.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

Dead Prez doesn't count because they had a chanting chorus? Xzibit doesn't count because he had a Dre-co sign (never mind the 200-300k fan base he had already built up prior to working with Dre)? Those seem like big reaches to prove your point. Redman had no biggest hit during that era but he still managed to sell a decent amount of records. Some of the reasons that you pointed out come across as just nitpicking to try and make your point. Like with most artists in all genres it's never just one thing that helps an artist to have some level of success. It's usually a combination of things at the same time so I don't see why you would

by indicating the actual fads that leant themselves to their hits.

>Dead Prez doesn't count because they had a chanting chorus?

I mean shit i don't even think of dead prez as lyrical. No dis... they cool an all dat, but it was a killer bass line and a club like chant that made their hit hit, not their exceptional lyricism.

>Xzibit doesn't count because he had a Dre-co sign (never mind
>the 200-300k fan base he had already built up prior to working
>with Dre)?

Did he even have a hit though? Why is he even a name that gets to Pimp My Ride? Lyrical prowess?

>Those seem like big reaches to prove your point.

I mean the alternative is saying that Dead Prez and Xzibit rose to the top on the fad that was lyricism. WHAT?

>Redman had no biggest hit during that era but he still managed
>to sell a decent amount of records.

Not even discrediting any of that.

>Some of the reasons that
>you pointed out come across as just nitpicking to try and make
>your point. Like with most artists in all genres it's never
>just one thing that helps an artist to have some level of
>success. It's usually a combination of things at the same time
>so I don't see why you would

Right which would make the most esoteric of them (from a mass media perspective) a most absurd reason to focus on.


█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

>by indicating the actual fads that leant themselves to their
>hits.
>
>>Dead Prez doesn't count because they had a chanting chorus?
>
>I mean shit i don't even think of dead prez as lyrical. No
>dis... they cool an all dat, but it was a killer bass line and
>a club like chant that made their hit hit, not their
>exceptional lyricism.

True they aren't the most lyrical MC's around I think they get thrown in because they aren't a typical mainstream group.
>
>>Xzibit doesn't count because he had a Dre-co sign (never
>mind
>>the 200-300k fan base he had already built up prior to
>working
>>with Dre)?
>
>Did he even have a hit though? Why is he even a name that gets
>to Pimp My Ride? Lyrical prowess?

X was probably his biggest "hit" from that time and it was more of a Hip Hop banger type of song than a big crossover hit. I think him being that bridge from West Coast "backpack" MC's to "Gangsta" MC's is really what helped push him to the forefront and he was that dude that everyone on the West liked and got behind and wanted to see win. Plus he has personality.
>
>>Those seem like big reaches to prove your point.
>
>I mean the alternative is saying that Dead Prez and Xzibit
>rose to the top on the fad that was lyricism. WHAT?
>
>>Redman had no biggest hit during that era but he still
>managed
>>to sell a decent amount of records.
>
>Not even discrediting any of that.
>
>>Some of the reasons that
>>you pointed out come across as just nitpicking to try and
>make
>>your point. Like with most artists in all genres it's never
>>just one thing that helps an artist to have some level of
>>success. It's usually a combination of things at the same
>time
>>so I don't see why you would
>
>Right which would make the most esoteric of them (from a mass
>media perspective) a most absurd reason to focus on.

We are in agreement here. I think I may have misunderstood what you were saying in your post because I just agreed with damn near everything you said!
>
>
>█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
>Big PEMFin H & z's
>"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1
>thing, a musician." © Miles
>
>"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

thanks for replying.

You mean like the Rawkus era?

Or do you consider Nas & Rakim lyricists as well..

there used to be a standard a lot of rappers abided by that demanded you be "lyrical" or focus on "lyricism" in your songs in order to be approved as a "dope mc".

obviously this standard was deviated from long ago.

but imo, it peaked as a "fad", both commercially and in the underground in the year 2000.

nah that doesn't even sound right.

again rapping became an accessory when previously it was considered the end all be all of rap music.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

you realize this is logically flawed, right?

if rap were truly an "accessory" to rap music overall there would have to be successful rap songs without a rapper or rapping (which there were, but it was in the 80s/early 90's when breakdancing was affiliated with rap).

rapping is not an accessory to a rap song.
it's compulsory.
the expressed style of rapping, degree of difficulty/intricacy, focus in lyrics (i.e. content/sentiment) varies.

the overall focus on "lyricism" from rappers i'm discussing was just another fad or phase.

rapping existed before lyricism was trendy, it exists after lyricism was trendy.

but rapping itself remains a stalwart.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

what would that migos song sound like without the verses?

i know the song you're referring to.

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

what makes you an authority?

you think you can just pass judgements based on your peripheral and not miss a step?

the bullshit you listen to so you can post about how much it sucks. why would i do that when there's so much more exciting things going on elsewhere. in other words i listen to rappers who don't treat their rapping as an accessory.

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

it's not a personal favorite or a personal revilement, it was popular, it defies your theory.

migos - versace

the hook is just a repeating of the word versace (REAL HIP-HOP SHIT SON@@) the verses are what people gravitated to.

i mean think about it. i managed to go for however long its been since it was released without hearing it, and now you're going to make me go listen to it just to prove the exception to the rule.

*le sigh*

█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

http://tinyurl.com/ltx2thw

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Big PEMFin H & z's
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am 1 thing, a musician." © Miles

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

nm

rapping, rap music existed before lyricism became a focal point and after it had been a focal point.
it was ultimately just another fad in rapping.
it came and went and didn't last.
it peaked commercially and in the "underground" 1999/2000.
this is proven by the fact that any rappers who attempt a focus on "lyricism" in their music in today's rap world are automatically dating themselves in the minds of most people.

Ok...

Yea I mean shit is true. It was a sub culture that saw some time in mainstream popularity and then faded.

But every top tier MC that has lasted is one part lyricist. They aren't all pure lyrical miracles but being extremely "lyrical" is as important as the rest of the artist components..

people still talk about somebody like nas when nas commercially hasn't mattered to rap music in about 10 years baring his attempts to remain relevant with "shock" album titles and cashing in on his reputation aka getting 5 mics for his first LP.

yet you venture outside of OKP and you won't see anybody championing somebody like fabo as being the game-changing rapper he actually was because then they would have to acknowledge the actual "impact" and "influence" he had on mainstream rap music and what changes he helped usher in without any of the "buzz" or popularity that aided the success of his music on his side due to how much time has past.

it's odd to me that 10 years later, we're still championing a lot of the same acts we were championing 10 years ago.

what indirectly does this say about all the acts who existed in the time between?

maybe the focus on lyricism i'm discussing mattered to actual FANS and the lasting impact of their music in fan's hearts and minds way more than when people tried to pretend it didn't matter at all back in the 00's as evidenced by the "staying power" you alluded to...

that's my 2 cents, but i'm trying to stay objective in the OP.

there are only like 4-5 rappers anyone can discuss that have a certain level of ubiquity

Jay-z
Lil Wayne
Drake
Eminem
Kanye West

Lyricism is still an important component to their success. If they were not qualified in that dept they wouldn't scale. Now it probably isn't what they are best known for but they all have a level of skill in lyricism.

Now of course we can argue who is and who isn't a lyricist but imo they all maintain that component in one way or another

i am here to settle the ongoing debate in this post.
i feel i am qualified to do make these remarks because
i am the johnny come lately rap fan that that the people in this post are talking about.


and i can say, without a shadow of a doubt,
the average pop music fan does not give a fuck about lyricism, and never did.
hip hop heads that care about lyricism are like
rock fans that care about Jeff Beck's or Eddie Van Hallen virtuoso guitar technique.
they exist, but that's not what the average fan is focused on.

i grew to care about lyricism as i learned more about
hip hop, and started to get analytical about things like word play, flow,
cadence, etc.

but even to this day, none of that amounts to a hill of beans
unless you have a great song.
i don't care that kanye can't rap for the same reason i don't care that janet can't sing.
she has good songs.



the peak of rap as great pop music was probably 00-02.
and for me, the biggest hits were hits because they were great songs.
i didn't notice how well some of those dudes were spitting until years later.

outkast... always had great hooks.
eminem... always saying something shocking, had great production.
jay z... hit with fans like me because of the neptunes, timbiland, kanye, just blaze.
didn't even care that he could spit.




I'll take it a step further.
canibus... who you are claiming is a great lyricist...
well, i hadn't even heard of him until i looked at the liner notes of my
LL Cool J album... the first rap album i ever bought...
and i only bought it because i thought the beat to "phenomenon" was sick.

lyricism was never a fad.
it never caught on.
it was only a thing to be considered amongst hip hop heads.

which is fine.
but lets not say it died out.

it was never a thing that gained traction.

unfortunately, they're mooted by the fact that some of the acts named in this thread who were born out of a heavy emphasis on "lyricism" in rap music SOLD HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF COPIES OF THEIR RECORDS.

quite frankly, somebody who's first album purchase was ll cool j - phenomenon is way too much of a casual fan to even engage this conversation with any sort of authority or to even bother validating with a response to try to show them their oblivious err of their perceived authority on the subject.

but again, thanks for replying to my thread.

a casual rap fan?


i think the thing you are missing is that it was just way
easier to get record deals back in the day.

to be honest, in that era, the music industry was
still coasting in the wake of MJ's "thriller."
blockbuster albums were still a thing. Super Tuesday would have
artists from Garth Brooks to Madonna to Whitney Houston
doing big numbers.

that seems unrelated, but it's not.
because that was an era when the roots could get artists signed
just because the label had nirvana "nevermind" money to blow.


so here's my point.
was there an era when lyricists could get SIGNED because they were nice on the mic?
absolutely.

labels had money to burn, were making their money back somewhere,
and it was easier to get deals.



but in terms of what was actually taking hold with the public?
it was all about the beats.

and like it or not, fans that thought like me were driving sales.
ppl that dug "big willie style" and "willenium?"
yep... that was fans like me.

ppl that thought "the real slim shady" was a fun single?
yep... that was fans like me.


folks that bought "the blueprint" for the soul samples?
that was fans like me.

outkast were incredible lyricists.
but that's not why i bought stankonia.
i wasn't appreciating rap on that level yet.



again... it's like saying that great songwriting was a gimmick
in the 60s.

you think the average music fan was appreciating smokey robinson a
genius for rhyming subject with public in tears of a clown?

nope. they liked the beat.


technical ability has ALWAYS been a niche market.
it's great when somebody with technical ability breaks pop,
but that's never what the general public is listening for.


>unfortunately, they're mooted by the fact that some of the
>acts named in this thread who were born out of a heavy
>emphasis on "lyricism" in rap music SOLD HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS
>OF COPIES OF THEIR RECORDS.
>
>quite frankly, somebody who's first album purchase was ll cool
>j - phenomenon is way too much of a casual fan to even engage
>this conversation with any sort of authority or to even bother
>validating with a response to try to show them their oblivious
>err of their perceived authority on the subject.
>
>but again, thanks for replying to my thread.

thanks again for your time.

for several weeks. maybe even more than a month, i didn't even click on your posts.
i had the naive, solipsistic view that maybe if i stopped clicking on your posts,
you'd just go away.

but you won't go away.
you will never stop posting.
it doesn't even matter how wrong you are.

you are always wrong when you talk about music theory.
you are always wrong when you talk about trends in the music industry.
you are wrong when you post about politics, race relations, and queer theory.
you are even wrong when you post about okayplayer-- which is, ironically enough,
the one topic that you seem to have a lot of experience with.

by my count, you have only been correct 2 times since you've posted here.
in an effort to focus on the positive, i'll list them here.
1) Brian Wilson's "Caroline, No" is a beautiful record.
2) Laffy Taffy was an influential song.

But every other time I've seen you write a post anywhere-- here or in GD--
you are wrong.

i'd ask you to stop being wrong about everything so often,
but i did that already and it didn't help.

but i wonder, does it pain you?
do you get sad when you realize how often you are wrong?
even Alabama Power says something that halfway makes sense once in a while.


but back to the OP.

fad: noun, an intense, wildly shared enthusiasm for something, especially one that is short-lived, and without basis in the object's qualities; a craze.

these are the words you used. which demographic of music consumers were buying hip hop "without basis in its qualities?"

which demographic of music consumers was big enough to
even buy enough records to create a "craze?"

casual rap fans, homie.
if you would have written that not many people care about lyrics,
you'd probably have a point. but that's not what you wrote.
you're wrong.

again.

>thanks again for your time.

>fad: noun, an intense, wildly shared enthusiasm for something,
>especially one that is short-lived, and without basis in the
>object's qualities; a craze.

i don't want to play semantics with you.

i appreciate your response to my threads, but if you don't agree with and/or don't fully understand any of them then i again ask that you please not reply.

here, watch this instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfBol6R_DhY

I bow to you

Damn...I see dead people.....

I hope your real life is less joyless than what you portray here

listening to the lyrical conscious stuff...

then i switched back after i was in a rapping contest because i realized how hard it really is to make an actual song whether about hoes, clothes and money or deeply conscious that people wanna listen to...


CHECK OUT AND DOWNLOAD MY FREE BEATS @ WWW.SOUNDCLICK.COM/SYLANA
~i dont deal with colors including black n white ,letters or any morse codes or beams~

people said I was when I tried my hand in rapping.

I think Double O said it best up top with "But every top tier MC that has lasted is one part lyricist." I was just looking at this list of best selling rap albums of all time:

http://www.complexmag.ca/music/2013/05/the-50-best-selling-rap-albums/

and who on that list wouldn't be considered a lyricist to some degree? I can only name 3 for sure non lyricists Master P, Nelly and Vanilla Ice. Arguments could be made for and against 50 Cent, MC Hammer, Beastie Boys, Salt N Pepa and Puffy (but a lot of people bought that album for Biggie). And don't say Will Smith isn't a lyricist, anyone who has heard He's the DJ, I'm the Rapper will tell you you're dead wrong.

Now singles wise things are a little different with all the Flo Rida's and Pitbull's and Tag Teams etc. but when it comes to long term careers and respect hip hop thrives on lyricism.

Patrick

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

http://www.tumblr.com/blog/blackpeopleonlocalnews

I wonder how the responses would read if the title of the post was: "lyricism" as a priority in rap peaked in 2000. Which essentially is what I gather the true sentiment behind this post is/was.


......................................

https://soundcloud.com/jasper_brown

http://jasperbrown.bandcamp.com/

Weird

album sales, and pop/celebrity status. And even with all of that to omit the blatant promotion of anything half witted, stereotypical and safe by big money(major) record labels is telling an 1/8 of the story.

Also this is just like jazz saying people don't care about talented musicianship anymore they just want kenny G. Stop it B its much more complex and nuanced than that.