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Forum nameThe Lesson
Topic subjectThe Listening: flawed beats?
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2856936
2856936, The Listening: flawed beats?
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue Nov-19-13 05:32 PM
piggybacking off this post:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=2849537&mesg_id=2849537&listing_type=search#2849619

I know Guru handled the engineering on TMS but that's the one aspect of
it that I really didn't care for, he cleaned up 9th beats to the point of making them sound just like anything else at the time
a lot of the charm of those LB records is the way they sound, and a lot of that character was lost on the next album
The Listening sounds a lot better to me, but then again I don't equate 'clean' with 'superior'
also 9th hadn't settled in as a producer yet and the sample choices and chops weren't as uniform, making for a more varied palette of sounds on their first album
what say you?
2856941, using the term flawed, is flawed....
Posted by liveguy, Tue Nov-19-13 05:45 PM
If he meant raw/gritty/less polished, I can understand that....but that doesn't make it flawed.

The beats on the Listening are dope to me.

But I liked that mixtape sound they had back then with their music.

That raw sound.

That was dope as hell.

Flawed. lol.... c'mon, son.
2856960, agreed on all counts
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue Nov-19-13 06:37 PM
2857212, Bump this reply....
Posted by NoDrawls McGraw, Thu Nov-21-13 05:17 AM
2856948, i believe its a case of...
Posted by The3rdOne, Tue Nov-19-13 05:57 PM
the raw 'non-processing' of throwing samples in fruity loops (what ya put in is what ya get out) versus the seasoned engineer used to mixing beats from the tightly processed sampling device such as the Akai MPC 2000 XL.

Didn't questlove bag on 9th's FL high hats by saying they sounded like bursts of windex sprays? lol

2856949, lmao @ bursts of windex sprays
Posted by liveguy, Tue Nov-19-13 06:00 PM
I just thought about how that sounds and lol....damn.
2856961, this doesn't make a lot of sense
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Tue Nov-19-13 06:39 PM
>the raw 'non-processing' of throwing samples in fruity loops
>(what ya put in is what ya get out) versus the seasoned
>engineer used to mixing beats from the tightly processed
>sampling device such as the Akai MPC 2000 XL.
>

FL and MPCs aren't different in that manner-in fact you can process more in a DAW than you can in any MPC, including the new ones


>Didn't questlove bag on 9th's FL high hats by saying they
>sounded like bursts of windex sprays? lol
>

he said he normally likes tight hi hats but loves how 9th's sound like spray bottles (he was mainly talking about Speed)
>
2857063, RE: this doesn't make a lot of sense
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 10:14 AM
>FL and MPCs aren't different in that manner-in fact you can
>process more in a DAW than you can in any MPC, including the
>new ones
>

it makes PLENTY of sense if 9th wasn't USING the processes which i could bet my house that he didn't judging by the sonics. Remember, those processes have to be manually enabled...especially using FL 4 or 5 which was the latest edition circa the time of "The Listening" and before.

anything sampled thru an MPCs contains a certain digital warmth and crisp that was very distinct. the special part of the MPC sound proccessor was thast it could differentiate and accentuate high, mid, and lo frequencies (I have to look up the exact specs..i used to have them). This also goes for the SP1200...in fact, more so the SP1200 because DAW's cannot easily duplicate that warmth and crisp that machine produced.

2857176, it's no different than a MPC as a process
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Wed Nov-20-13 10:42 PM
you don't just drop a sample in FL, you have a copy of the sample you recorded or loaded that you manipulate
the sound you get in FL depends on a lot of different things, just like in a MPC your sound depends on your equipment chain, mixer settings, source material, state of repair your machine is in, etc.
2857249, RE: it's no different than a MPC as a process
Posted by The3rdOne, Thu Nov-21-13 10:12 AM
>you don't just drop a sample in FL, you have a copy of the
>sample you recorded or loaded that you manipulate
>the sound you get in FL depends on a lot of different things,
>just like in a MPC your sound depends on your equipment chain,
>mixer settings, source material, state of repair your machine
>is in, etc.

okay...so you do support what I was saying regarding enabling chains, mixer settings, etc in FL.

all I was just saying is that 9th didn't enable these chains enough to clean up that rawness in the tracks.

AND what i'm saying is if he ran those same samples and tried to recreate ANY of the FL beats (especially) thru the MPC raw, it would have a different feel sonically.

MPCs, Sp1200s, Rolands, EMUs, and other hardware all have sampling process engines that differ from one another in some way or form. Warmth, punch, and bit rate changes are added to any raw sample. Though it maybe slight, FL aint processing any sample like that unless you MAKE the settings to do so. People have tried to emulate that real SP1200 sound on DAWs like FL and Maschine, but the shit aint easy at all to do so.
2857293, it takes a lot to do emulate hardware in software
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Thu Nov-21-13 12:06 PM
and I've never heard a convincing facsimile
but I was misunderstanding what you were saying in your post it seems
2857296, my bad for not clarifyin...
Posted by The3rdOne, Thu Nov-21-13 12:12 PM
I was thinking to myself, damn..you of all cats should know better than me! lol
2857307, LOL no big beal
Posted by Garhart Poppwell, Thu Nov-21-13 12:32 PM
I think one of the reasons that album went over so well is because it sounded less processed and more homegrown
2857316, fuck yes..
Posted by The3rdOne, Thu Nov-21-13 01:13 PM
in the year 03?? everything was overpolished and processed. the most underground of the underground joints coming out wasn't that raw at all.
2856967, LOL I think he was just referring to the "Speed" beat with the Windex comment
Posted by hammam, Tue Nov-19-13 08:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CMCKCEyLeM
2857065, funny...and thats the thing about DAW programs
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 10:32 AM
9th could have cleaned those hats up if wanted to. The appeal of it was the rawness. If you chop a hat from a drum break, you are taking all of the reverb and whatever effects it had from the sampled record. The DAW isn't going automatically phase out the 'air' after the hat sound. Hence, you get the spray bottle effect.
2857043, have you ever used FL?
Posted by philpot, Wed Nov-20-13 08:52 AM
2857064, born and bred on FL
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 10:14 AM
FL 3.5 to be exact
2857069, RE: born and bred on FL
Posted by philpot, Wed Nov-20-13 10:42 AM
well i find this odd from anyone who's usd it: "(what ya put in is what ya get out)"
2857080, what's so odd about that?
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 12:20 PM
2857102, maybe im misinterpreting what ur saying
Posted by philpot, Wed Nov-20-13 01:24 PM
all i was getting at is u can do a lot w/ FL
2857108, RE: maybe im misinterpreting what ur saying
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 01:37 PM
>all i was getting at is u can do a lot w/ FL

oh no doubt you can lot. Per my reply (#10) all of EQing has to be enabled and parameters manually set. You could create templates from there.

Not saying you can't or don't have to do that with MPC produced beats, but there is definitely a sonic difference between raw sampling in FL and raw sampling on the MPC hardware.

All i could remember back then was all the hoopla about how hip hop production purists bashed FL...and then a cat named 9th came along and shattered that standard of thought. Of course plenty of cats were doing beats on FL waay before the rise of Little Brother. I remember some FL using cats having a more dynamically cleaner sound than 9th back then, but Little Brother, as a whole, had the total package enough to be recognized.





2856962, Avoiding the question here, but...
Posted by _Torchbaras, Tue Nov-19-13 06:59 PM
dayum I miss when 9th took time out to program those dynamic basslines...
2857068, yup..
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 10:41 AM
you didn't hear too many baselines after The Minstrel Show and early beat tapes
2857020, still my favorite Little Brother album
Posted by justin_scott, Wed Nov-20-13 01:40 AM
and add all the memories of seeing these dudes rock small spots before anyone really knew them.
2857067, There were reissues of The Listening without The Get Up on it?!
Posted by self_ish, Wed Nov-20-13 10:34 AM
Pulled it up on YouTube and The Get Up is missing from the full album version that's on there. That was one of my favorite songs on the whole album. Did they actually attempt to clear that sample and couldn't?
2857081, Wasn't that the only song..
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 12:21 PM
on the listening that wasn't produced by 9th?

I think Eccentric did that one
2857083, Yup, that was Eccentric's beat. But it didn't sound out of place at all.
Posted by self_ish, Wed Nov-20-13 12:40 PM
At least not to me.
2857088, I didn't think that the song had a blatant sample
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 12:44 PM
..enough for it to get pulled for clearance issues..it was just one hit stab noted up.

One of my faves on that album
2857120, What?!? That's some bullshit
Posted by spenzalii, Wed Nov-20-13 03:12 PM
The Get Up is one of my favorites on that album too. That's like Doggystyle without G'z Up Hoe's Down on it...
2857070, I agree it lost the dirtyness but you cant be that dirty on a major
Posted by Menphyel7, Wed Nov-20-13 10:56 AM
2857109, and...
Posted by The3rdOne, Wed Nov-20-13 01:38 PM
young guru wasn't gonna mix it dirty either..
2857122, true
Posted by Menphyel7, Wed Nov-20-13 03:24 PM
2857124, i know what you mean and agree 100%
Posted by amplifya7, Wed Nov-20-13 03:37 PM
loved the unpolished sound on the listening.
2857151, *Epiphany* ...So that's why Threat doesn't have the 9th Wonder feel
Posted by fluicide, Wed Nov-20-13 06:38 PM
Guru took the bump out
2857182, Man, Guru is fuckin Proactive when it comes to takin the bump out
Posted by -DJ R-Tistic-, Wed Nov-20-13 11:05 PM
2857185, I'm speculating, but I think Jay pushed him to make things sound "leaner"
Posted by fluicide, Wed Nov-20-13 11:36 PM
His(Jay) music always seems mixed flat imo. Everything is leveled. No punch. If you listen to Little Brother's version of Threat, the beat sounds better. Maybe 9th mixed that one himself..
2857214, LOL...
Posted by NoDrawls McGraw, Thu Nov-21-13 05:24 AM
Good observation, Fam...

LOL at how you worded it but yeah, you on point.






2857213, The Listening was an impeccable HipHop classic...
Posted by NoDrawls McGraw, Thu Nov-21-13 05:19 AM
...straight-up-&-down....

Shit was dat RAW!

Thas' the problem these days.......joints don't be havin' dat RAW!



9th, Tay, & Pooh get infinite respect from me for "The Listening"....

Nuff said......