i was listening to Solo Dancer - Track A from Mingus and i was going crazy in my seat on the bus just lost in the music.

i was thinking about how back in the day, moreso in the 20's and 30's, the notion of Black musicians being appreciated and respected for their art and music being unique from mainstream European rooted music was a rare thing. someone could argue that the pressure to be accepted as equal or to find respect added motivation for great musicians like Gillepsie and Ellington and even on to greats like Davis and Mingus.

hip-hop had a similar period of being rejected my mainstream press and sensibilities and it could be argued that the best music in its history came out during this time or at least because it was striving to be accepted.

i know jazz has become almost an afterthought since it reached mainstream acceptance. i guess my case erodes some since R&B isn't where jazz is, but with the Black audience becoming more fragmented, R&B defintely isn't where it was 10 years ago and even less like it was 20 years ago.

what do you all think?

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

yes!

i put it in the present b/c (i hope) there's still some like that out there.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

there's some truth to that. although in a selfish way i kinda liked the music borne from the insecurity because it had an energy and ambition to it.

i don't know if the stagnation in black music is due to more environmental factors like lack of music education in public schools or greater emphasis on celebrity vs. success or the structure of the music industry that focuses more on a quick, sure thing rather than experimentation and development.

but without bands and acts having the capability to cook new stuff up in studios and develop their sound over time, i don't see any way for enough acts to come up to really change how music is made and consumed.

and it certainly wasnt Miles' intent.. Idk what in the EFF makes you think that

the fact it was NOT their intent allowed space for true and pure creative freedom,
and exchange of ideas.

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

!

yep....approval from the the record executives and the consumers.....

.

basically we are culturally assimilating...
the art we create now is popular because paradigm wise...its in line with western/capitalist values...

the "purer" black forms can never be "pop" here because its not accessible to most whites.. because it was more afrocentric in its ideas and approach.

so its jungle music and noise at first...and then as you add milk to that coffee ...it becomes light and sweet and easily digestible

to gets the side eye from more of my black peers than white folks..

i'll give you that the mainstream shift has more to do w/ western influences.. but i think the audiences have been conditioned as much or more than those making the music..

^^^ this is true too...

is that cultural lag though?

and i could be extremely jaded by my 15 years in the NYC DOE...

but these current crop of kids are the most externally "ghetto" and ironically the most europeanized in their thinking...

shit is bugged

edit: now that i think about it... its not ironic at all

If it was respected then hip hop and r n'b would be in a lot different place right now. B/c to me for it to be respected it'd mean that quality would be trump everything else and that's clearly not the case.

they respected jazz back then

and they respected rap before it blew up too

arguably, people respect it less now, when its gone mainstream

but thats the way it happens with a lot of black music, it takes a long time to enter mainstream consciousness and win wider approval, then once it gets it, and usually through great compromise, it loses the respect it had, and then theres nowhere for it to go once it falls out of commercial favour

i agree wholeheartedly

No matter WHAT Genre of music it is, there's always some other act copying and mass producing their version of Black Music somewhere in the world.
We've seen American and International acts copying everything from Jazz, to Blues, To RnB, to Funk, all the way down to Disco, Dance Music and Hip-Hop. It doesn't stop.


I mean DAYUM,son...A Korean Group doing Gospel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzMcIo68qI

>I mean DAYUM,son...A Korean Group doing Gospel:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzMcIo68qI
>
>
>
>
>

.

Of course, black american music is inseparable from american music period but I always find it strange when people single out just specifically black music as something that gets appropriated worldwide.

For example, a lot of swedes think that swedish hip-hop is some wannabe black thing and people call those rappers wiggers and so on. However, how pure "swedish" is indie-rock or metal or euro-techno? In ALL those cases, it's a matter of cultural appropriation; it's not like your typical swede have THAT much more culturally in common with the white american than the black one-they are both alien but since one is a different race, people make a big deal out of it.

Meanwhile, swedish people can play, say, american-style pop-punk with lyrics about highschool proms and NOONE will call them wannabes-it's hypocritical and silly...

EDIT:In the case of, say, japanese or Korean people, they will be accused of cultural appropriation regardless of if they play the blackest funk or the whitest indie and that is of course because they are neither black nor white. It's hilarious how much race informs how the authenticity of the artist is judged...

i feel putoff when i feel an artist is making 'Black' music and is apeing the aesthetic but doesn't respect the social conditions or emotional space that made the original Black artist(s) make the music they made.

i guess i ought to and kinda would feel putoff if I heard a European Country artist. i would think, they have 'their' own circumstances of their life, how could it be that they could make authentic American Country music. but then again, Americans make well-crafted European Classical music and i wouldn't think, 'those musicians are bougie or wannabees.'

i also don't feel that acts like The Beatles or maybe The Rolling Stones or even modern day Rock acts who have musicians that are White are apeing Black music. in the case of The Beatles or The Rolling Stones, i think it's because they at least really respected the music of the people they were influenced by and also added a unique, authentic part of themselves in the music and in the case of the White Rock acts i feel they're just not really serious musicians or that they just have a different take on things.

>i feel putoff when i feel an artist is making 'Black' music
>and is apeing the aesthetic but doesn't respect the social
>conditions or emotional space that made the original Black
>artist(s) make the music they made.
>

Ennh. there's a lot of TERRIBLE non-Black Bluesmen, but I do believe they "Get it". People who grew up in shit conditions and have the same world view as Black Bluesmen...they just suck at playing Blues.


>i guess i ought to and kinda would feel putoff if I heard a
>European Country artist. i would think, they have 'their' own
>circumstances of their life, how could it be that they could
>make authentic American Country music. but then again,
>Americans make well-crafted European Classical music and i
>wouldn't think, 'those musicians are bougie or wannabees.'

To be fair, I think 'Country' is just what we call it. But I think all corners of the world have regional ( read: Rural) music that would fit the same criteria and should be judged fairly. Now obviously it would *sound* like American Country Music, but the ethos would be the same...
>


>i also don't feel that acts like The Beatles or maybe The
>Rolling Stones or even modern day Rock acts who have musicians
>that are White are apeing Black music. in the case of The
>Beatles or The Rolling Stones, i think it's because they at
>least really respected the music of the people they were
>influenced by and also added a unique, authentic part of
>themselves in the music and in the case of the White Rock acts
>i feel they're just not really serious musicians or that they
>just have a different take on things.


Nah. The Beatles started off their careers playing a shitload of Covers of old Soul and RnB songs. But once they blew up? They never went back to it. That's kinda telling, don't you think?
As far as the Stones? I'm not really a huge stones fan, but they did it too, to some degree. Their biggest hit is probably "Satisfaction", and they took their name from Muddy Waters. Shit, they first place they went when they landed here was Chess Records.

I'm sure they liked the music and it obviously influenced them, but there (was) a little bit of thievery goin' on...

and to be honest and forthcoming here, i don't generally listen to 'new' music. but i just hear people copying notes, and not the 'feel' of the music.

i know with there being fewer and fewer bands and those bands not having the opportunity to mess around and play unorthodox things or even well-crafted music since labels don't develop artists anymore. it's either sell or get dropped nowadays. but i just don't or rarely hear anything that contains many of the musical expertise and emotional elements found in music of the past.

i know, from reading a post in here, that the artists i mentioned weren't consciously working to satisfy listeners, but they seemed driven by some need to prove themselves, either to other musicians or critics or to themselves. perhaps a challenge of the modern generation is that there isn't 'anything left to prove'. it's not like anyone saying 'hip-hop isn't music' would be seen as having an credibility or any sense of knowledge about the matter.

i don't think the matter is just that modern artists aren't listening to older artists, it just seems that they're just copying and not internalizing and offering up their own ideas.

what sorry Racist thread to make. no nothing turkeys have no sense of history whatsoever.

Black Music been respected since White slave Owners were selling us like a Reality show left and right.

whatcha talking bout Mr. Drummond?

Black folks don't need no white folks approval at all. this is beyond music though.

white folks love Black Music and they be having those fantasys with it think back to Pino in "Do the Right thing".

same ole same.

Black folks make White folks clone it and water it down and then sell 5 more like it.

next some turkey is going to want an R&B artist to write a theme song to Fox News and Bill O'Reily or something?

>Black folks don't need no white folks approval at all. this is
>beyond music though.

that is true, but i also feel that Black people (and artists since they are part of the larger culture) maybe don't outright seek White approval, but feel (and maybe this is just me and my upbringing) angry about being not viewed as equals or respected as people on their own and act in ways to disable White people's judgement of them.

it could be as subtle as acting 'nice' when someone feels triggered or as overt, for example, as pulling back the energy of a song to have it be seen as more marketable.

Black folks are the best actors on the planet and when it comes to coding and doing certain things, etc.. white folks ain't never going to know or truly accept what we really think and feel.

thing is Black acts in the music industry do tow the line and the money, etc.. makes it as such.

when black acts turn down black writers and will speak to white writers and rolling stone, etc.. that speaks to Black folk turning down our own.

cross over and managers, etc.. its nothing new and quite a few black acts sought out white approval when they never had to, because the music and following was strong, however made to feel that only being R&B ain't good enough in Amerikkka.

Today it's tons of that going on but in the past do you really think black music or music being played by black musicians and sung by black vocalist wasn't respecting what they loved to do, cause if you think they didn't then you're wrong.

I will say that from your topic/title of your thread, it seems like you think black music wasn't any good until non-blacks approved it as being worthy of being good music, that's just a fucking shame that black music has been seen this way cause it really lowers the value of it to minds who listen to music; and it just shows how many people who listen to music don't give a fuck about it but just listen to it cause it's background noise when they need something to occupy their minds, smh.

but that wasn't what i was hoping to get at in my post.

i was being kind of arrogant, but i was wondering why more artists don't respect the craft of making music and use it as a means of expression or an avenue for creativity and the simple enjoyment of liking music and liking music that is both enjoyable and challenging.

i know there have been musicians 'use' music for financial gain and to prop up their own ego since music has been made, but there have always been musicians whose skill and talent and ability to convey meaning in their work.

it seems given the way music gets presented to people that people don't respect artists who are talented and respect their audience and listen to really unfufilling music. i know part of my feelings are me being unwilling to accept modern music for what it is and give new things a chance, but part of me feels that there's just a dearth of music that overpowers you and makes you feel that sense of 'rightness' that you feel when you hear something really, really good.

i mean Jay-Z is probably known as the best rapper / artist in popular Black music and he's talented and skilled, but he's also as well known for riding trends and making music that's hot right now rather than playing what he individually feels is good and making a lane for himself (American Gangster might be an exception, but...)

maybe i'm just stuck in the past and don't know what's good now to determine who or what is 'next', but i just don't run across anything made recently that gives me 'that' feeling.

* goes back to listening to Main Source *

to create art in

it's just that many acts nowadays see music as a "hustle" and not Art.


How many times have we heard some idiotic shit like:

"...man if it wasn't for this music shit, I'd be out on the block moving bricks..."


and not in the "Music is the way I channeled by focus, and presented my talents to the world" sense. But more in the "It was either Music or Crime" sense.


or how many discussions in The Lesson have invoked the Industry Buzzwords; "marketing", "promoted", "business model" and all that shit, and completely ignore the musical out put of said artist?

>i was listening to Solo Dancer - Track A from Mingus and i
>was going crazy in my seat on the bus just lost in the music.
>


i hope it was a school bus