Every Era has Legends: Post 2000 are Kanye & 50 the only Legends? Are there any other MC's and Producers you see that will have legendary status? The 80's had Run Dmc, LL, NWA, PE etc..etc.. The 90 of course had Biggie, Pac, Tribe, Nas, Outkast, Jay-Z etc.. The 2000's...you have Kanye and 50 Cent...they are legends in the game...like them or not but who are more that you feel will be looked at by the next era of Hip Hop fans as legends?

Hello, does 50 count as 90's since that's when we first heard him?

T.I.....eh, probably not legend. Ludacris had the talent to do so, but didn't.

Thing is, Jay-Z is probably gonna be seen as biggest legend ever, and yea he came out in the 90's, but his 2000's work is what's really putting him there....so I wouldn't just say "last decade produced NO legends" if you get me. Same with MJ coming out in the 60's, but the 80's REAAAAAAAAAALLY making him.

________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

-murs biggest and best years were early 00's
-eLigh is underrated as a sonofabitch
-the grouch
-lucky
etc.

then if ur taLking project bLowed, some peopLe might say abstract rude is tighter then bus. and more legendary. some peopLe .


i'd say p.u.t.s /peopLe under the stairs are Legendary based on 3 of there aLbums from the beginning of the 00's. thes one is underrated as fuck too on the production.

The only places he's made an impact are my recycle bin and some 14 year old white swedish kids last.fm

Because this isn't OUR generation, so the people who we don't consider legends might very well be so to someone 10 years younger.

I'd think T.I., 50, Wayne, Kanye, and now Ross (I know, I know) are the ones who that crowd would consider.

Influenced can't be denied...I agree

people can dislike him, but he's legendary status...

Even though he debuted in 99. He's definitely a legend though.

next decade...he first came out in 09 but in 20 years we'll probably identify him with the 2010's

He released arguably his best album creatively (Reasonable Doubt) and his biggest selling record (Vol. 2 HKL) both before 2000.

>He released arguably his best album creatively (Reasonable
>Doubt) and his biggest selling record (Vol. 2 HKL) both before
>2000.

But still, he wasn't a "legend" at the end of 1999 at all. If he had died in 99, I doubt ANYBODY would have been calling him the best rapper ever. It took his 2000's work and consistency to give him that claim.

The blueprint and the black album pretty much solidified Jay.

They need more people

Eminem is a legend...I guess 2000's

it was way too inconsistent.

if not critically then commercially if he wasnt a jailbird.

look at all the trap rappers that came after tip.

IF no tip no Jeezy and he is a legend in itself.

3 classics depending on who you ask.

yall stop it.

When I think of Legend, I think of KRS or Run DMC

I don't look at Tip and Jeezy like them. But thats just me..

Officer Ricky gon have niggas mad too.

And as much as I dislike it, explain how Wayne isn't already there...

wayne and em are already there.

I'm salty as fuck people get hyped over this dude's music...


It just don't hit me like that... I skip songs on albums as soon as I hear his grunt...

"Kanyes Out" in a few years, it'll be undeniable.

>Officer Ricky gon have niggas mad too.

he's already there IMO... dude ironically is the "50" of now, and filled a LONG standing void.

his discog is solid but he's missing something to punctuate his career.
who knows, in 5 years maybe we'll look back and it wont even matter that he doesnt have a smash album.

semantics softer than couples at wedding alters
this cops and robbers
and u cant hold a candle
rip ur antlers off and hang them on my mantle
str8 rambo--rocket science wouldnt even try it
these dudes cant compare their focus is on a diet~me

But I don't think he fits the mold of artist this post is about...

but his chance came and went after 2001.

of in the 2000's well one of the only classics i can think of...
reflection eternal...

semantics softer than couples at wedding alters
this cops and robbers
and u cant hold a candle
rip ur antlers off and hang them on my mantle
str8 rambo--rocket science wouldnt even try it
these dudes cant compare their focus is on a diet~me

also, Ross' ear for music will be too

Dude is too worried about what others think of him... Drake needs to quit all this tough guy shit he tries to portray... He needs to embrace that sound 40 brings and make some meaningful songs or at least songs that people can relate to... He should still make fun records... I'm not saying become a bitch, but don't act like you're killin anyone or giving orders LIKE THAT... He also really needs to get off Wayne's balls... Why did I see Drake live a few months back and I heard 3 wayne verses that night... Wayne wasn't at the show... I'm not trying to hear that shit...


I look forward to more collabs with him and The Weeknd...


fuck Rick Ross... He will be remembered as a legendary liar and someone who picks great beats...

hell all entertainers do..its their job, in a way.

That being said, the music he makes/beats he chooses has ushered in some really fly developments in the sound of hiphop

I just can't do it... But yeah, the beats are dope...

>hell all entertainers do..its their job, in a way.
>
>That being said, the music he makes/beats he chooses has
>ushered in some really fly developments in the sound of
>hiphop

that's what i'm getting from this post

how sad

All of the greats from the 80's and 90's had it so why should it change for this decade?

i vehemently disagree

If you consider Rakim, KRS, Slick Rick, Nas and Biggie pop stars then yes.

you know that's my point, why duck it?

what are yall afraid of admitting?

Come on dude! Kanye and 50 Cent didnt start off as pop stars. Kanye was backpack nigga and 50 was hardcore mixtape MC...stop it...Eminem was a battle rapper ...all dropped hot music, influence etc..

you act like they came out pop..

hell jay-z started with jaz now he sell out concerts in 2hours...what does that mean?

give credit where its due my G..this post is easy to see where i was going

There is nothing pointless about the post. Read it without your personal feelings towards of few artist.

There is a huge difference between Great/Popular Artist and legend.

Another simple example b/c this post isn't that hard

Ludacris is a VERY popular Artist

Dr. Dre is a Legend in the Genre, pushed the Genre and artist after him

If you cant understand that simple difference...I dont know what to tell you..

The game has changed so much that it's hard to determine what's the criteria for being considered a legend/great. Rap is pretty much pop now so unless you're naming under the radar cats, I don't know. I grew up in a different era so I let the young people decide who their legends are. I don't love hip hop anymore. Haven't since 97

be mad...

hiphop is pop...at times...but it is MUCH bigger than that as evedenced by the gigs snd gigs of music we all have on our CPUs

Back in the early 90s you could have HUGE influence in Hip Hop and not
have influence on pop culture. That's not impossible now but it IS less
likely.

you know damn well KRS, Ra and Slick AINT POP Stars. headz def know who they are, they make appearances in popular venues, but go to a near by soccer game, softball game, a starbucks, barnes and noble and ask them moms if they know who they are and you will hear crickets.

Big and NAS are popular.

Wayne, Em, early2000 50 those are pop stars

yall knwo damn well what Phil is getting at

I didn't know what he was talking about. The topic was about legends/greats. He brought the pop star topic to the table. I named a few people I considered legends from the past. That's all I did. Rap is pop now so you can love it or hate. Apparently he hates it. It ain't that serious fam.

> Rap is pop now so you can love it or hate

cause it reads like ur fucking stupid and ignorant as fuck to the reality and depth of hiphop music, but ive seen u post enuf to kno ur not this stupid or hardheaded

Pop is short for popular. Rap is pop(ular) now plain and simple. Biggie, Nas & Jay were pop in the late 90's. They got rotation on TRL and it don't get no more pop than that. If rap had been around 2 or 3 decades by the time LL, Rakim, KRS, Slick Rick, etc. came out they'd be pop too. Shit, Run-DMC and the Beastie Boys were pop IMO. Kanye, Drake, Wayne, Rick Ross are the face of rap right now hate it or love it. When the general public think of rap that's who they think of. We, the purists, dig a little deeper but the diamonds in the rough we champion aren't the face of rap music.

pop doesn't equal legend. legend equals quality of art product (music) + originality/personality + influence on a mainstream or underground level; if we wanna get reductionist about it...

and obviously pop is short for popular, but you know damn well that pop as a genre is different than pop as an adjective for well known music artist. Pop the genre takes from all other genres: rap, rock, electronic, ect, and streamlines the sound to its most basic elements (which always isn't a bad thing) and tries to turn a profit off culture as a form of escapism and collective enjoyment. I would argue rap isn't pop RIGHT NOW, it was from 98-06, but NOW... NO!

And in here lies the irony: Jay, Em, Kanye are all indisputable legends IMO, BUT their influence on rap is largely tied to the industry trying to reproduce their templates ad nauseum. but there is a nuance and archive (discography) to those individuals artistry that validates their "legend status". It's also why IMO 50, Fab, T.I. ARE NOT legends though popular. as for Rawse we will see?

but to think mainstream influence is the most significant marker of legend status is just plain ignorant. Are we really going to claim Dilla, Madlib and El-P aren't fucn rap legends!?!!! come on! yall on that good white. THEIR INFLUENCE on the art of rap (and other genres) is undeniable

>pop doesn't equal legend. legend equals quality of art
>product (music) + originality/personality + influence on a
>mainstream or underground level; if we wanna get reductionist
>about it...

okay then so what's the problem with Kanye, Wayne, Drake or Rick Ross being considered legends of today? they are the ones shaping the sound of rap music. they have their own style and sound and there are plenty of people who think there music is quality.

>
>and obviously pop is short for popular, but you know damn well
>that pop as a genre is different than pop as an adjective for
>well known music artist. Pop the genre takes from all other
>genres: rap, rock, electronic, ect, and streamlines the sound
>to its most basic elements (which always isn't a bad thing)
>and tries to turn a profit off culture as a form of escapism
>and collective enjoyment. I would argue rap isn't pop RIGHT
>NOW, it was from 98-06, but NOW... NO!

I see artists like Madonna or Celine Dion in the actual pop category. never seen rappers there. rap is rap. some you like. some you don't.

>
>And in here lies the irony: Jay, Em, Kanye are all
>indisputable legends IMO, BUT their influence on rap is
>largely tied to the industry trying to reproduce their
>templates ad nauseum. but there is a nuance and archive
>(discography) to those individuals artistry that validates
>their "legend status". It's also why IMO 50, Fab, T.I. ARE NOT
>legends though popular. as for Rawse we will see?

Is Em's discog good though? 50, Fab and TI aren't legends to you but Em is, why?

>
>but to think mainstream influence is the most significant
>marker of legend status is just plain ignorant. Are we really
>going to claim Dilla, Madlib and El-P aren't fucn rap
>legends!?!!! come on! yall on that good white. THEIR INFLUENCE
>on the art of rap (and other genres) is undeniable

Dilla had his hands in one of the most important groups in hip hop history. He also worked on Busta's projects when he was top notch. The Soulquarians were a movement. Dilla has impactful material under his belt. I love Madlib and El-P. Own a ton of their shit but I don't know if I can call them legends yet.

>okay then so what's the problem with Kanye, Wayne, Drake or
>Rick Ross being considered legends of today? they are the ones
>shaping the sound of rap music. they have their own style and
>sound and there are plenty of people who think there music is
>quality.

I said YE is a legend, IMO one of the GOATS. Also said time will tell with Rawse...

as for Drake he is a branch from Ye's tree for one; and two he's only two albums in. also there is that thing, you know that he has a whole nation of critics / "haters". What legends you know has as many detractors as Drake? really I'll wait for it? That says something about the quality of his work, even though he already has a throng of imitators from Lil' Sean to The Weeknd

same criticism could be made about Wayne, but even though he's clownish and borderline awful at times, i will concede legends status to him for this generation on rap style influence, and work ethic alone.

>I see artists like Madonna or Celine Dion in the actual pop
>category. never seen rappers there. rap is rap. some you like.
>some you don't.

Jay is not a pop artist? Eminem? 50 during his first two album run? right now Pitbull, Flo Rida aren't pop artist? k.

>Is Em's discog good though? 50, Fab and TI aren't legends to
>you but Em is, why?

I am NOT A FAN of Em's music. don't like one of his albums, yet I'm honest enough to know I'm in the minority with that opinion. There are those who claim that he has two and three classics. There has never been a rapper with so much fame and rap credibility as Em outside of Jay and Pac. And just like with Pac, even though I myself only like songs and wouldn't call myself a fan, their influence and "prestige" is matter of fact. On a pure rap for rap sakes level, Eminem is damn near in a class with only 2-5 other rappers.

as for the rest all only have ONE ALBUM that could be called "classic" and all were short flames amongst a sporadic discog. also their influence, all of them, 50, Fab, T.I. has led to some god awful rap music. so no, none fo them are legends.

>Dilla had his hands in one of the most important groups in hip
>hop history. He also worked on Busta's projects when he was
>top notch. The Soulquarians were a movement. Dilla has
>impactful material under his belt. I love Madlib and El-P. Own
>a ton of their shit but I don't know if I can call them
>legends yet.

not seeing EL and Madlib as legends is just plain ignorant or being hard-headed for the sake of holding onto to your weak premise. literally RJD2, Blockhead, Atmosphere, POS, 7L & Esoteric, Mr. Lif, C Ray Walz, Aesop Rock, etc. owe their whole lane/style to El-P. he begat all of them. shit, He's worked with, or had many signed to Def Jux at some point. that's not even getting into how forward thinking and unimitatable El's production style has been. you want to talk critically acclaimed underground classics? Funcrusher Plus, Cold Vein, Fantastic Damage, his hand in re-inventing Cage sound, ISWYD, and now Cancer 4 Cure... boy stop!

as for Lib... please, lets not do this

have some kind of impact/influence on the genre and be reasonably credible.

>have some kind of impact/influence on the genre

what do you mean by "the genre"? every facet of the genre? just certain facets? what's the cutoff?

>and be
>reasonably credible.

credible how?

you use these words but you don't give any clue as to how they fit this context of what makes a "legend" (legend of hiphop music? legend of "the game", whatever the fuck that bullshit term even means?)

The biggest stars in hip-hop these days are pop stars, that's just how it is. If there is someone that doesn't fit that mold you'd like to name, go right ahead.

i know yall know where i was headed with this

influence on a worldwide scale

thousands and thousands of stylistic children

deep impact on approaches to production

very versatile

at least one classic album

had considerable influence on the gawd dilla...

so make me an argument for rick ross being more legendary than the bad kid

Madlib is DOPE

Not a legend

A Legend impacts the culture not just to purest but the mass amount of people who love the genre and people outside of it

READ MY LAST COMMENT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE THREAD AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT I DEFINE AS A LEGENDD...SIMPLE

u couLd say //// no cLiche here //// but u trying to say 'Lib isn't a Legend is Like saying zappa isn't a Legend-- even tho he was aLways heLLa beLow the radar too. he never had a hit, and reaLLy didn't conform to pop or mainstream radio either (teLL me the Last time u were Listening to a cLassic rock station and u ever heard one zappa song??? i have Never heard zappa on the radio, ever). but we aLL know zappa is the o.g.

so is madLib

Madlib will be/is an underground legend... Many people will appreciate his music years from now... But his legend won't be on the same level as someone like Kanye... it just won't...

the thousands of fans and artists that are his children?

or ppl who religiously follow billboard #'s and TMZ?


>Madlib will be/is an underground legend...

so an "underground legend" isn't a legend?

Many people will
>appreciate his music years from now... But his legend won't be
>on the same level as someone like Kanye... it just won't...

SEE

you can't fuckin break it down bc YOU CANT FUCKIN EXPLAIN WHY

you just can't

see how that works?

The fact you even want to argue it shows how contrary and stubborn you are...

not sure what world you live in that Madlib has had more influence, or will be remembered more than Kanye West...


Now you might want to argue that madlib is more talented than others... which would be fine... But a fuckin dude who lives down the street could be more talented than Lib, Ye and all these other people that have been listed, but do you know why the dude down the street is not a legend or even considered up to their level?????? BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT HIM! THEREFORE, HE WON'T GET THE SAME RECOGNITION! and that's what this post is about...

It's not a shot at dude's talent/skill level... It's just the truth...

legends?


that makes no fucking sense

the "general public" has no idea who Peter Phillips from Mt. Vernon NY is

but guess what?

HE IS LEGEND

now get more mad bc im "stubborn" and you cant possibly argue your side w/o admitting that, yes, for cash85er to consider one a legend, they must be a fucking pop star

Still confused on why you chose to argue with me?? I said Madlib is an underground legend... He's just not on the status Ye will be at...

and can you tell me who has had more influence, Ye or Lib??

who's music will be remembered more, Ye or Lib??

who has had more of cultural impact, Ye or Lib??


I really am interested in your answers...

>Still confused on why you chose to argue with me?? I said
>Madlib is an underground legend... He's just not on the status
>Ye will be at...

what "status"? oh that's right...PEOPLE WHJO DON'T LIKE RAP LIKE KANYE, THAT MAKES HIM A LEGEND *SMH*

>and can you tell me who has had more influence, Ye or Lib??

influence on who and what?

for my buck Lib has had CONSIDERABLY more influence on *hiphop* than Kanye West

>who's music will be remembered more, Ye or Lib??

by whom?



>who has had more of cultural impact, Ye or Lib??

imact on whose culture? what culture? american popular culture? and that's how to judge what makes a HIPHOP artist legendary

yall's logic is not actually logic



>
>I really am interested in your answers...
>

my answer is that if this post was titled: who are the rap artists who were most popular on the pop charts over the last decade, i'd have no issue bc then it would actually be HONEST

>>Still confused on why you chose to argue with me?? I said
>>Madlib is an underground legend... He's just not on the
>status
>>Ye will be at...
>
>what "status"? oh that's right...PEOPLE WHJO DON'T LIKE RAP
>LIKE KANYE, THAT MAKES HIM A LEGEND *SMH*

YES! THAT MATTERS! Kanye has expanded Hip Hop's fan base! Those people who don't normally listen to rap that listen to Kanye are now more open to it... I'm sure you won't understand what I'm talking about though...


>
>>and can you tell me who has had more influence, Ye or Lib??
>
>influence on who and what?
>
>for my buck Lib has had CONSIDERABLY more influence on
>*hiphop* than Kanye West

That's great... Glad you're being stubborn on this... shows you're consistent and that you have no intention of acknowledging that Ye has had influence in not only hip hop, but in music.. There was never a time in 2000's that every rapper wanted a MadLib beat, but there was a time that everyone wanted a Kanye beat... I'm sure you won't understand what I'm talking about though...


>
>>who's music will be remembered more, Ye or Lib??
>
>by whom?

people... in future generations... will remember... Kanye West's music... more than they'll remember... Mad...Lib's... music...

I'm sure you won't understand what I'm talking about though...




>
>
>
>>who has had more of cultural impact, Ye or Lib??
>
>imact on whose culture? what culture? american popular
>culture? and that's how to judge what makes a HIPHOP artist
>legendary

Yes... that counts... And as much as you don't like to admit this, Hip Hop has had an impact on America's popular culture... Kinda like Jazz music... took a little bit of time, but it is definitely part of America's popular culture... I'm sure you won't understand what I'm talking about though...



>yall's logic is not actually logic
>
>
>
>>
>>I really am interested in your answers...
>>
>
>my answer is that if this post was titled: who are the rap
>artists who were most popular on the pop charts over the last
>decade, i'd have no issue bc then it would actually be HONEST
>

Did you understand anything that you just read??

>YES! THAT MATTERS! Kanye has expanded Hip Hop's fan base!
>Those people who don't normally listen to rap that listen to
>Kanye are now more open to it... I'm sure you won't understand
>what I'm talking about though...
>

i understand. and 2 things:

1-you severely underestimate the reach and influence of artists who are HUGE by any real standard but who don't show up on pop charts, and 2-you severely overestimate the importance of what u talk abt here as far as determining who is a legend in HIPHOP




>>
>>>and can you tell me who has had more influence, Ye or Lib??
>>
>>influence on who and what?
>>
>>for my buck Lib has had CONSIDERABLY more influence on
>>*hiphop* than Kanye West
>
>That's great... Glad you're being stubborn on this... shows
>you're consistent and that you have no intention of
>acknowledging that Ye has had influence in not only hip hop,
>but in music..

"has had"?

duh

Kanye "has had" HUGE influence...what i challenge is the factual nature of the assumption that Lib hasnt to the same extent or possibly more, in hiphop, and alsiin new directions in music

Madvillainy spawned more artistic clones than College Dropout

Has Kanye made a jazz album? Do you think no one is influenced by Lib's jazz work? his beatdigging is THE STANDARD for hiphop

There was never a time in 2000's that every
>rapper wanted a MadLib beat

for my $, your wrong and talking out your ass

>I'm sure you won't understand
>what I'm talking about though...
>
>

pretty much

>>
>>>who's music will be remembered more, Ye or Lib??
>>
>>by whom?
>
>people... in future generations... will remember... Kanye
>West's music... more than they'll remember... Mad...Lib's...
>music...

wrong. you can not base this assumption on the situation on the "ground" (or pop charts) in 2012...it shows a lack of understanding of history

>I'm sure you won't understand what I'm talking about though...
>
>

basically

>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>who has had more of cultural impact, Ye or Lib??
>>
>>imact on whose culture? what culture? american popular
>>culture? and that's how to judge what makes a HIPHOP artist
>>legendary
>
>Yes... that counts... And as much as you don't like to admit
>this, Hip Hop has had an impact on America's popular
>culture...

*smh*

and with this (incorrect) assumption our time here is done and i bid you a fair evening

lol

Kinda like Jazz music... took a little bit of time,
>but it is definitely part of America's popular culture... I'm
>sure you won't understand what I'm talking about though...
>
>
>
>>yall's logic is not actually logic

^^




>>
>>
>>>
>>>I really am interested in your answers...
>>>
>>
>>my answer is that if this post was titled: who are the rap
>>artists who were most popular on the pop charts over the
>last
>>decade, i'd have no issue bc then it would actually be
>HONEST
>>
>
>Did you understand anything that you just read??
>

elvis is the greatest legend of em all...

lol

is kanye more of a legend than dilla?? (this is the key question right here)

cuz...if kanye is over dilla...all bets are off. (dilla & preem are basically sub-genres at this point...kanye is imitated but he dont have his own production genre )

"history is written by the victors" (victory = "success" in this example)

but that dont mean there aren't other histories...

the main point phil is making...is one that i have been screaming for years

OUTSIDERS to the culture (pop music consumers) DO NOT get to dictate hip hops rules...

to me this is the line in the sand^^^^^^

its the people who grew up on hip hop pre viacom/clear channel dominance and those that came after

there are ALOT of hip hop legends that aren't POPULAR in any way

T LA ROCK is not a legend??? how about busy bee???

lol....cats is clowns

That's true but you can see their influence on mainstream hip hop. The greats that came after them will acknowledge them as influences in their careers. Y'all keep bringing up cats from the beginnings of hip hop when it was seen as a fad. The guys at the forefront today are more popular than the guys of the past because rap as a whole is more popular now. It's not a fair comparison. I seen a cat mention G Rap. G Rap is a legend because one of the greats, Nas, will tell you himself that G Rap influenced him. Madlib is dope. I dig a lot of his music but name me some people he has influenced? That's pretty much where the whole debate went once Phil came in.

lol...most hip hop fans dont know Pete Rock "real name" or DJ Premo..lol...give me a break

If you say Pete Rock...people know who he is...

or youre just playing a role

i feel bad for u if its the former

>

how is his cult any diiferent than the cult of kanye west except that his ACTUAL MUSIC is more important than his image of shenanigans?

oh thats right

ppl that dint really fuck w/ hiphop like kanye west

i be forgettin that thats what matters and makes one a "legend" in the 00's, the legends from back in the day were legends bc of the RAP MUSIC they made for ppl who actually like RAP MUSIC

instead of letting your personal feelings hold your judgment hostage.

kanye is a legend
madlib is the type of cat they make Unsung for. he's a cult figure.

for them to be considered a legend...


He would hate if Madlib was as popular as Kanye West...

or just be one of those people that champion his catalog from before he got big and consider the rest trash...

and you have to be blind, dumb or covering your eyes and ears (then there's that good ol willful ignorance) not to know and understand this

he is wildly popular and successful at what he does


>for them to be considered a legend...
>
>
>He would hate if Madlib was as popular as Kanye West...

bull fucking shit

please PLEASE point out in this post where i hated on Kanye West or said he wasn't a legend?

and here's a hint: indicating madlib is better or more influential does not mean i hated of said he wasnt a legend

>or just be one of those people that champion his catalog from
>before he got big and consider the rest trash...

oh that's right....people aren't allowed their opinions unless they agree w/ yours

my apologies oh great hiphop arbiter

the funniest thing abt u clowns is u run around claiming everyone else is fascist and forcing their opinions of what is "real" on others but yall cats are MUCH more guilty of fascist narrow minded views of what is and isnt "acceptable" for others to think and believe when it comes to this hiphop shit

like we saying madlib is swizzy tier or something.

the Stooges and Velvet Underground are legendary rock-bands who only sold a few thousand copies while active. Sun Ra and Ornette Coleman are legendary jazz-artists who even by jazz-standards weren't popular at all.

Now that I think of it, Miles Davis 60's albums with the Wayne Shorter-Hancock-Williams quintet sold in the range of 20000-30000 copies each, at a time LONG before illegal downloading.

And in Hip-Hop, isn't Ultramagnetics "Critical Beatdown" a legendary album and them a legendary group? That people argue this is proof of how pop Hip-Hop has become...

and artists who have made music that has influenced many popular artists...


so..... as of RIGHT NOW... because I can't see the future... Madlib is an "underground legend"... a cult figure, if you will... His music has influenced a lot of artists who many people haven't heard of... We have, but the majority of people haven't...

A little different than Kanye West who changes whats popular every time he releases an album... not saying he re-invents the wheel or it's even something brand new, but the fact he's made 5 albums that all sound different and they're popular when they come out... Yes, 808's went along with the trend of people using autotune, but a rapper using autotune a whole album and it being accepted had not been done... as far as I can remember... and if you can't see the influence Kanye has had on music, especially in hip hop (from the artists to the sound), I don't know what to say to you...

yes, hip hop = pop now... it's not a bad thing... purist real hip hop snobs can be mad about it, or they can appreciate, or not, all the different artists hip hop has to offer and not kid themselves by saying madlib is gonna be ranked up there with Kanye West (in the eyes of the general public, think outside the Lesson) when it's all said and done...

Now we don't have to care about what the general public thinks... We can like who we like and call whoever we feel is a legend, legend... But from reading the OP, it doesn't look like Madlib fits with what he's talking about... RIGHT NOW

all of my arguments are based off of what the OP's definition of a legend is...

He's proved it by mentioning albums sales, even someone like Miles Davis doesn't have a huge fan base when compared to pop stars. It has nothing to do with the number of ppl, it's the impact it had on the ppl it did. Velvet Underground may be a lot more well known but their album sales ain't much better.

not now...

Even now, two million people have seen Accordion. Tell me that many people have EVER heard a Sun Ra song

Edit: And legends are defined mostly by their peers and other musicians. Hammer sold millions, but nobody making rap is trying to be the next hammer, and that's why he's not a legend. That's part of the reason it *is* premature to define legends from the last decade, but the number of producers Madlib's given birth to

did I bring up sales??

I know I brought up impact and influence...

and why do you guys keep bringing up youtube???

Are youtube views that important?? And is 2 million a lot for having a video up 4 years?? And didn't Adult Swim promote the hell out of it?? Sory... I'm just confused at what you're trying to prove with this youtube argument I keep hearing...

>did I bring up sales??

Nope but you went on about pop vs underground and how pop = relevant and underground = nobody cares.

>I know I brought up impact and influence...
>
>and why do you guys keep bringing up youtube???

>Are youtube views that important?? And is 2 million a lot for
>having a video up 4 years?? And didn't Adult Swim promote
>the hell out of it?? Sory... I'm just confused at what you're
>trying to prove with this youtube argument I keep hearing...
and artists who have made music that has influenced many popular artists...

B/c you're saying ppl don't know who he is, and he's showing you it's more than just 50 ppl that come out to each show he does. A lot of ppl would download his stuff so album sales are the best determining factor. He does mostly instrumental or unconventional type of hip hop so no matter how good it ain't ending up on the radio

edit: and there must be recognition...

Madvillian was on almost every best of list for that year and of that decade. So was The Unseen

He was invited to the Blue Notes archives to make a remix project.

He's got recognition from his peers http://vimeo.com/31226393 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRzkGVW7z0Q

He's definitely had an impact on music. Everyone from Flying Lotus to Blu to Hot Chip have said he's influenced them.

They haven't had retroactive chart success. They've picked up a few sales as the years went by but they didn't cash mega checks then or now.

some people are fans and just don't own their music... No artists that you're a fan of, but you don't own any of their albums?? I'm sure you can name a few...

so u saying T LA Rock, Busy Bee, and Original jazzy jay aint legends?

>so u saying T LA Rock, Busy Bee, and Original jazzy jay aint
>legends?

again, why are y'all bringing up cats from hip hop's beginnings? You can see their influence on hip hop by the guys that came after them and mention them as influences.

if something is not popular its not legendary

...it be just as easy for me to use dilla dawg

cuz no matter how u cut it...brother IS NOT known like that...and him being a legend isnt really arguable

Look at Dilla's resume though. ATCQ, Busta, the Soulquarians movement. How could he not be a legend?

me, Phil, HL and others have brought up that you can say that about.

above in our convo, I laid out why El-P is a legend. you've yet to refute why he isn't

and you keep saying Madlib isn't one, which is laughable. he has contributed to the re-invention of Erykah's sound post Mama's Gun, provided Talib and Mos with some of their best material post 2002 in their very sporadic catalogues (and i know you are one who doesn't like The Ecstatic, but whatever).

Madlib was also THE sound of a particular form of the west coast underground from 98-05. he was dead in the middle of a sound that dominated the speakers of those of us who had fallen out of love with the direction mainstream rap took in those years. He, Egon and Wolf have basically shaped the diggin' culture and alternative sound spaces in LA. folks from Flying Lotus to Tyler the Creator have named Lib as one of their favorite producers/influences. Weldon Irvin and Mario Van Peebles have even commented on how great and talented Madlib is.

lastly, while y'all claim that popularity is part of it, so is critical acclaim, and Madlib has received it from The Los Angeles Times, Wax Poetics, Rolling Stone, The Fader, Pitchfork, The New Yorker, etc. he's not as UN-recognized as some of you are claiming he is. Shit the Blue Note owners CAME TO HIM, not the other way around. Madvillian sold 250,000 copies NOT 10,000 or 20,000 like some of the newer rappers we currently ride for.

Lib IS A LEGEND. to say no is an agenda, ignorance or that fuck boy shit

>me, Phil, HL and others have brought up that you can say that
>about.
>
>above in our convo, I laid out why El-P is a legend. you've
>yet to refute why he isn't
>
>and you keep saying Madlib isn't one, which is laughable. he
>has contributed to the re-invention of Erykah's sound post
>Mama's Gun, provided Talib and Mos with some of their best
>material post 2002 in their very sporadic catalogues (and i
>know you are one who doesn't like The Ecstatic, but whatever).
>
>
>Madlib was also THE sound of a particular form of the west
>coast underground from 98-05. he was dead in the middle of a
>sound that dominated the speakers of those of us who had
>fallen out of love with the direction mainstream rap took in
>those years. He, Egon and Wolf have basically shaped the
>diggin' culture and alternative sound spaces in LA. folks from
>Flying Lotus to Tyler the Creator have named Lib as one of
>their favorite producers/influences. Weldon Irvin and Mario
>Van Peebles have even commented on how great and talented
>Madlib is.
>
>lastly, while y'all claim that popularity is part of it, so is
>critical acclaim, and Madlib has received it from The Los
>Angeles Times, Wax Poetics, Rolling Stone, The Fader,
>Pitchfork, The New Yorker, etc. he's not as UN-recognized as
>some of you are claiming he is. Shit the Blue Note owners CAME
>TO HIM, not the other way around. Madvillian sold 250,000
>copies NOT 10,000 or 20,000 like some of the newer rappers we
>currently ride for.
>
>Lib IS A LEGEND. to say no is an agenda, ignorance or that
>fuck boy shit

It's funny to me because y'all act as if I didn't say I'm a fan of both Madlib and El-P. It's cool though. I'm done with this.

>Look at Dilla's resume though. ATCQ, Busta, the Soulquarians
>movement. How could he not be a legend?

most people dont like dilla's tribe albums...
he made fat joints with busta...but none of busta's well known joints...
and if you go to a barbershop in any hood and ask who the soulquarians are ::crickets::

he is not popular... people do not know him like that.

he is close to you...

madlib is a legend...

he produced ghostface and de la soul and doom. the nigga made madvillian for crying out loud lol

imo...anyone who sells >100,000 indie is a legend... atmosphere included (lol)

edit: didnt see the above post til just now... they did a quarter mil on madvillian???? holy shit

ur own biases out of it?

yall are being NO LESS OBJECTIVE than i am, you just of the bullshit opinion that pop status MEANS ANYTHING when discerning legendary statis for hip hop artists



>instead of letting your personal feelings hold your judgment
>hostage.

FOH

i am no more guilty of this than yall and you KNOW it

if yall werent BIASED you could fix ur fingers to type one name that isn't a POP star but your biases PREVENT U FROM SEEING REALITY

ie the REALITY that Otis from Oxnard has a global fanbase of probably millions, on an indie label, and has more stylistic children who are actively making hip hop than any of these pop stars u claim are so influential

>
>kanye is a legend
>madlib is the type of cat they make Unsung for. he's a cult
>figure.


so an unsung figure can't be a LEGEND?

FOH w/ this narrow, biased and subjective view of what makes one a legend

(also note i have not directly challenged the legitimacy of even laughable cats yall have dropped, like ross, as legends...)

you pull the center to towards your extreme and then bitch about objectivity when the person arguing's POV is no more extreme than your own

the radio is music's version of fox news

Too bad nobody will listen to this but it's true.

Ppl have been brainwashed to believe albums sales is everything when most ppl hate radio and the albums that get the most acclaim when they do Top 100 only sometimes do well.

Is Robert Johnson not a legend? Frank Zappa? Kool G Rap?

And there is a difference.

Unsung types can be a LOT more talented than the "Legend"...but Legends do have to be known, at LEAAAAST by name only. Like even Dilla is more known namewise than Madlib, and folks who are super radio/commercial heads will know 4-5 of his songs if you tell them "Ay, he did ______" but that's not the case with Madlib. Doesn't mean that people who aren't aware of him are brainwashed, have bad taste, limited view....just means they don't know about him. He might be the most Unsung cat since the 90's.

>And there is a difference.
>
>Unsung types can be a LOT more talented than the
>"Legend"...but Legends do have to be known, at LEAAAAST by
>name only. Like even Dilla is more known namewise than Madlib,
>and folks who are super radio/commercial heads will know 4-5
>of his songs if you tell them "Ay, he did ______" but that's
>not the case with Madlib. Doesn't mean that people who aren't
>aware of him are brainwashed, have bad taste, limited
>view....just means they don't know about him. He might be the
>most Unsung cat since the 90's.

I've seen him described as a West Coast legend but ain't nobody besides heads (Specifically ones up on their west coast history) can name even 2 or 3 of his songs.

>I've seen him described as a West Coast legend but ain't
>nobody besides heads (Specifically ones up on their west coast
>history) can name even 2 or 3 of his songs.

Most "unsung" types are legends with their own cult following, whether it's regional, or a certain style, or even before/after the music itself was at it's peak.

If somebody from NY said "Quik ain't a legend, he's a nobody, I donno his shit" I'd take offense...but I'd actually get why he says it.

Madlib is one of the top artists in the last 10-12 years that's part of the "real Hip Hop that doesn't even sniff radio play" side...while Kool G Rap was part of the era where he still got some play and all Rap fans at the time at LEAST knew him by name. Even though he was more early 90's, I think people 21-25 who are casual Rap fans still know him more so than Madlib.

Madlib is the type that folks either LOVE and nearly worship, or haven't heard of before....not many inbetweens.

Which is great IMO because you want the respect of your peers more than anything. At least you should but I don't think he's a legend.

can you give me another artist who could release that amount of work in a year and it not basically ruin their entire bottom line?

Don't get me wrong, I love all things Madlib.
Although he's done his most promentent work since the year 2000, he was doing producing for Tha Alkaholiks and doing the Lootpack thing during 199x.
So, doesn't fit what the OP was asking for.

he didn't surface as a 'soLo' artist untiL the 00's...

he reLeased 95% of his music after the year 2000. Lol.


that's Like saying Lebron James isn't the NBA poster chiLd of the 2000's because he was pLaying middLe school basketbaLL in the late 90's... c'mon bro! Lol

I was just going off what the OP said, as criteria. He was active pre '00.
Again, I feel he has legendary status.
I own almost his entire catalogue. I think that says a lot. I don't like to waste cash on bad tunes.

yeah they started out in the 90's too bro

I'm a fan of Madlib. I just don't consider him a legend. I'm sure years down the line he will get that Velvet Underground treatment though.

peopLe wiLL hate now that everybody is rocking aLL this computer software to make beats and biting fLying Lotus and shit.

but madLib wiLL go down in the hiphop history books as the most infLuential and one of the most proLific ever in a 10 year span.... but unquestionabLy so for reaL underground hiphop.

he infLuenced an entire generation of producers, inspired 100's.. proLific as fuck. probabLy became a LittLe over-saturated at times -- and hence the haters... but madLib is my #1 vote for sure. undisputed.

it is just not everyday that a dude who makes his name in hip-hop is given unfettered access to the Blue Note masters and then makes an album on that label with them. I think that while he probably wouldn't say it was his greatest work himself, the fact that it even happened in the first place speaks to his impact and notability as an artist.

that being said I don't know if I can call him a 2000s Legend (even if the bulk of the work he has done to earn the "Legend" title was done in that decade). He will probably have a good 20+ years under his belt as an artist.

Madlib is a timeless artist within the hip-hop genre, particularly in its indie/underground strain. He is someone that will be continually written about and remembered long after he decides he's going to call it a day.

I liken him to free/avant-garde jazz artists who may have been given props in the most niche circles in the beginning, but today are revered as much as the "big names" of mainstream jazz.

I don't want to call him the Archie Schlepp of hip-hop because it's too imperfect a collaboration, but I think he holds similar reverence.

>it is just not everyday that a dude who makes his name in
>hip-hop is given unfettered access to the Blue Note masters
>and then makes an album on that label with them. I think that
>while he probably wouldn't say it was his greatest work
>himself, the fact that it even happened in the first place
>speaks to his impact and notability as an artist.

same way dilla is undoubtedly a legend

the prob with this post is that it confuses 'most notable artists of a decade' with 'legend'

you can be a gamechanging artist, even an influential artist without being a legend

legend is an artist who affects people deeply

-madLib
-lil wayne didn't bLow aLL the way up tiL the 00's broke
-R.Kelly (he is a 90's Legend too, but he owned the 00's. his dopest shit was from the 00's)

Seriously, this "the PEOPLE don't care about madlib, he's not a legend!" What the fuck are you talking about? When did the general listening public ever give a shit about KRS-One's music? His impact was on heads and other rappers, and he is a legend. I looooove Kanye, I think he's a genius, musically, but you guys act like Hammer is a bigger legend than Rakim.

If DOOM keeps up his run and doesn't drop a dud soon he'll be a legend. And the stuff that makes DOOM DOOM came out in the 2000s. You all almost act like it's a strike against the era we're living in that rappers haven't been flopping after a few releases the way Kane or a lot of the other 80s guys did. Some of the longevity we're seeing in rappers is pretty amazing. For my money Big Boi's last album was as good as anything he's done, and whatever era he's *from*, he released it a couple years ago. That's now. Same goes for Raekwon. Why are you complaining about it???

Sorry but even casual hip hop fans would know who a legend is. GREAT artist and LEGEND is two totally different things

Madlib and MF DOOM are not Hip Hop legends...............SORRY

I KNOW YOU ALL LOVE THEM ON OKAYPLAYER AND THEY ARE BOTH TALENTED AND DOPE AS HELL BUT..............NOT HIP HOP LEGENDS

RAKIM IS A HIP HOP LEGEND
KRS IS A HIP HOP LEGEND
DR. DRE IS A HIP HOP LEGEND

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE

They might have heard their names, but that'd be as far as it goes. By your standards, Dre, 2pac, Biggie, Jay-Z, Kanye, 50 and Eminem are the only legends (unless you want to count guys like Wayne and Drake).

A casual hip hop fan does know who krs is. Every chick I dated are and were casuals and knew who KRS, Rakim,BDK and even Kool g Rap were....these guys are legends and great at the art to the point chicks know what "Black Cop" is and the significance of the song...you arent giving casual fans enough credit. Some chicks and just casual fans in general know more about hip hop than people think even from a casual perspective. The point of the thread is not difficult to understand in regard to the angle I'm coming at. Lil Wayne put the work in for almost a decade and impact has been legendary. He grinded and worked. Did 1000000 features..and then gained even more success. Some kid will be an adult in 10 years and will say he is a legend and have a good argument. I believe the examples I gave throughout the thread are not reaching.

Stop it. Your nominations are exclusively mutliple-platinum-selling artists. I mean 50 and Eminem both had albums that went diamond, Carter III was the biggest selling album of the year. To act like they're the only people the hip hop pantheon admits is absurd. KRS went gold a few times, back when people were still buying albums. But those albums are classics! Their status has nothing to do with some girls you dated's familiarity with Black Cop. But if we're going popularity, it's not solely measurable in album sales anymore. Madvillainy songs showed up in indie sampler albums that had nothing to do with rap. DOOM gets respect from Thom Yorke AND Nas. Accordion has almost two million hits on youtube. Madvillainy made every best of the decade list. Hip hop has room for different kinds of legends. Em is a legend! Doom and Madlib are just a different kind of legend!

>A casual hip hop fan does know who krs is. Every chick I
>dated are and were casuals and knew who KRS, Rakim,BDK and
>even Kool g Rap were

Please casual hip hop listeners have ZERO idea who Kool G Rap is. KRS-1 maybe, but probably not BDK or Rakim. And I don't count "I've heard the name but couldn't name a song" as knowing an artist.


>I believe
>the examples I gave throughout the thread are not reaching.

No but the ppl you're denying is. You're basing everything on YOUR personal taste as oppose to what's had impact. I'm not a Weezy fan but I can say he'll be considered a legend. Just like I'm not a Dead Kennedys fan but know they're punk legends. Success on a large scale has NOTHING to do with being a legend. Sun Ra had nothing even close to a song being liked by the masses, casual listeners or even regular fans of jazz wouldn't necessarily know him. But there's no doubt in my mind that he's a legend.

casual rap fans DO NOT KNOW WHO KRS ONE AND RAKIM AND BDK AND SLICK RICK ARE. sorry no they don't.

Casual fans over a certain age(late 20s and older) know who Rakim, Kane, KRS, Slick Rick, etc. are.

Younger casual rap fans dont.

Younger rap fans from Australia need to log off.

That's all here.

were better

Dizzee Rascal, CunninLynguists, Kanye, Wayne, Cool Kids, Jeezy, Gucci Mane


all these guys will mean that decade to ME, and in ten years when people are summarizing this decade those will be the artists their lists point to, which in turn will be the lists that develop the taste of internet-minded teenagers


It's pretty silly to assume this decade or any following decade would have as many out and out legends as the first two, though. It's similar to the reigns punk and metal had; at some point, the notoriety for playing that sort of music faded into a niche obscurity and it was up to the fans of more than radio and club plays to decide who the legends were, and often that was a personal choice.


Also, you'd have been laughed at if you called Velvet Underground of Scott Walker a legend in their heydays, but here they are fifty years later getting namedropped as often as possible. It's impossible to determine what will truly be enduring; in fact, I'd argue hip-hop's canon has been remarkably resilient against that trend so far. Perhaps thanks in part to the term "classic"/"5 Mics", but it's much easier to reach general consensus on a hip-op argument than any other. At least in my experience.



~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

Fabolous would be a 2000s legend. And I guess MAYBE HE IS, somehow. But not to me. Everyone knows who he is and what he does though. Maybe Pitbull is a legend.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

Very Popular and Legend are 2 different things..

Fab's rap style which he took from Mase, has been JUST as influential as 50s music. please explain

This legend debate/discussion is very similar to the GREAT/GREATEST/BEST/CLASSIC debates/discussions we've all seen before.

Yeah but this thread is easy to follow when emotions are not involved. Great and Legend are 2 different things and naming your favorite artist in every discussion even when it doesnt fit is crazy to me.

Another example:

T.I. by some is a GREAT artist...makes good music..very famous

Dr. Dre is a legend in the genre, influenced an entire coast and the entire hip hop world, famous as well but due to his talent first, NWA and things of that nature...

I mean it was the Blueprint that cemented his legacy. I doubt he'd be called a legend if he retired in 1999 to become a minister.

to call someone a legend at anything it's usually a couple decades from their prime. this seems a bit premature at this point.

Yeah but the word LEGEND is being thrown around like its nothing. You can tell some people will be looked back as a legend by fans and peers

Talib Kweli, Little Brother and I'm sure a few others that can't come to my mind.

Your just naming people now...

Mf Doom........No

Little Brother...No

Madlib....No

T.I.....No

The Neptunes...ok...maybe so

Just Blaze...no.......Dr. Dre...YES....difference

Dilla....Legendary Talent...died early

Weezy and Eminem...YES

on hip hop. If Neptunes is just a maybe with you than you clearly are being biased to your tastes as oppose to what will be remembered in history.

You would not believe how often his name was mentioned in the early 2000's.

If you gotta be known by casual fans of rap/hip-hop to qualify as a legend then dudes like Pete Rock, Premier, RZA, Dilla aren't legends, they're just great artists. Jokers might recognize the name but I bet they couldn't name one song or album they were responsible for.


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

for all the quantity that he puts out, I can't think of a single ALBUM of his that's hot all the way through.

I'm open to suggestions/recommendations, but I'm currently at a loss...

Madvillian
The Unseen
Shades of Blue
the Liberation
Champion Sound
the first string of jazz viynl Lps from 00-05

if you're not a fan cool, but those records are damn near undeniable

Beat konducta in Africa is unbelievable too.

doom could rhyme over a click track and it would be entertaining

the unseen don't really hold up well

that blue note joint is hella frustrating as a beatmaker and a jazz lover and a fan...it's kinda, almost, dope

and them early jazz joints...we just gonna disagree about those, man. The later ones are much MUCH MUCH better

I like a ton of his work, just not very many of his ALBUMS

he's a legend off of work ethic alone, but a lot of his stuff is kinda scattered

the Unseen is one of the best records of the last 15 years. Period. it holds up just fine

and lol and not liking Shades of Blue... that statement creates a tectonic plate shift in my mind

and WE DEF DISAGREE on the jazz recordings, the 00-04 stuff is MUCH better than the 07-current stuff.

and who cares if they're collabs. Dre's whole career is based on collabs, FOH with that criticism

and it holds up JUST FINE

It's impact. Just b/c some guy doesn't like Muddy Waters doesn't mean he's not a legend.

without naming so called legends i just wanna
say the brother held his ground with solid arguments regardless
of what some may or may not say.. the arguments were/are solid.
i agree.

>without naming so called legends i just wanna
>say the brother held his ground with solid arguments
>regardless
>of what some may or may not say.. the arguments were/are
>solid.
>i agree.
>


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

most of you talking the loudest have no idea what a legend is and equate the term with popular successes, when its actually closer to the opposite
go get some pussy

The post was not that hard to understand.

.

Not really yo...

...for even uttering that 50 Cent is anything close to a legend. ugh!

His name alone is Legendary now in Hip Hop. Sorry, but it is. The entire Mixtape movement, Eminem/Dre Push, Get Rich LP, Had the Streets on lock for at least 2 years, The G-Unit Movement, Beef, Street Cred that appears to be real though I could care less, business ventures, clothing line, investments....all in the name of Hip Hop..still a huge figure to casual and even people who dont like Hip Hop. A solid MC on top of everything else. Thats like saying Puff is not a legend and he doesnt make beats or write his raps. Its bigger than that. If you cant understand the angle I'm coming, I dont know what to tell you.

Seriously, that's just about every other rapper in the game. He's not special for those accomplishments. He's mediocre at best as a rapper. He's a fucking caricature.

Seriously, it's statements like that that make words like "epic" and "legend" lose their power.

these clowns Big Sean Wiz and Drake French Montana or any
of these new niggas

Easily

See Power of The Dollar

Yep, at least in my eyes..

Kenny G is the biggest legend in jazz. He changed the game, son! The man on the street ain't trying to hear Coltrane's squiggedy squonks!

If I can't find his album at Wal-Mart he ain't a legend

at least according to my definitions (which most likely people won't agree with lol)

50 (arguably), wayne, em, kanye are the hip hop artists that the "general public" will remember from the previous decade. icons/symbols of rap for 2001-2010


on that type of scale, obviously madlib won't register. the roots wouldn't even register (moreso in the 90s i guess) and they've gone plat/gold/etc.


but if we're talking about legends, it's kind of a different discussion that i think is more centered on talent/output. i do believe there still has to be some widespread acknowledgement of the artist (i.e. some artist with 60 fans can't be a legend no matter how dope his music is). but madlib has obviously achieved that with albums on many critics (both mainstream mags and random blogs) best of lists, impact on the artists around him, and fans all over the world.

you can still debate all you want whether or not you think he is talented enough to be considered a legend. but it's not fair to say he can't be a legend because a non/casual hip-hop fan wouldn't know who he is. why would that be relevant to determining whether somebody is a "hip-hop" legend?

fall into the grateful dead category of legend. by that i mean there is a large segement of the population that has no idea who they are, or have ever heard a song by them, but they are acknowledeged by their peers as great, have a large (enough) and very dedicated fan base, put in years and will probably quit whenever they say quit and not be forced out.

so we need a grateful dead legends category it can't all be only about registering on the pop culture map.

and no i don't think every underground mc/producer should qualify.

Atmosphere

Tech n9ne

Madlib

J-dilla

MF Doom

Curren$y

I think this era will be remembered for its sprawling influence, and the heads of all the subgenres will be remembered as legends in the future. I liken this to groups like Joy Division being remembered as Legendary with only a couple albums and minimal record sales. The sub genre they represent, the emo/post punk type stuff, them being the poster children for that makes them legendary.

Curren$y may not stack up next to Rakim, but as the leader of the Stoner rap/mixtape rapper reniassance, he will be considered legendary in the future, unless he completely falls off.

Often times the acts with stronger cult-like fanbases are the ones made into legends, while the more "successful" artists are the ones that get lost in the shuffle. T.I. was Running shit, when Jay-Z retired, but he is now lost in the shuffle as we, as a culture have moved on to the next "hot thing". While MF Doom hasn't released but one full length in what, 5-6 years, but ask most anyone who knows him, or about him, and he's that legendary cat in a mask.

I may not be fully fleshing out my stance, but I hope that it is clear what I mean, and I am not discounting the other "legends" nor am I saying mine are the only ones.

Time will tell..


Legend is a big word though...it takes alot to be one...

50, kanye, gucci mane, waka, lil jon, camron, clipse, and on an underground cult-ish level, dilla, madlib, el-p, DOOM, etc. im sure theres several im missing out. eminem belongs to the 90s.

im not a big jeezy fan but yeah, he is one of the most important - whether you like him or not - artists of the decade, same for rick ross and 50 (who only has one classic album to his name but thats more than most rappers).

of commercial and critical appeal that's unheralded by their peers.

To me the Legends of the 00s (not my personal favorites aside from Jay) were:

Eminem
Kanye
Lil Wayne
50 Cent (maybe)
Jay-Z

I agree. Some of these posters are just naming artist they like alot. Putting legend behind some artist who people dont even know...lol..thank for your response. A realistic one..

A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE dont know who many of the golden era rappers/producers/albums are, outside of maybe Run DMC, LL and the Beastie Boys

Not true. Plenty of casual fans know who Rakim, Krs, and Big Daddy Kane. You can ask a 45 year old woman at church who Big Daddy Kane is and she will say "Oh, the rapper?


Come on fam...

They may not have started their careers in the 2000's, but they sure made their mark in it even if their record sales don't quite reflect it. And this is where Cam'ron, Common and Talib Kewli comes in.

.

No offense to anyone in this thread, but people are listing forgettables or more or less their favorites.

I've said the same thing 5 times in this thread...

your favorite might not be a legend...lol

If Wayne spit raps like Lupe, he would be called the GOAT...

Music gets popular on the basis of the quality of the music, but also on the basis of the extent to which the artist has money put into the PR/advertising of the music.

In other words, one of the biggest factors influencing the popularity of a song or artist, more often than not, is a factor which has nothing to do with the music itself...

What I'm saying is that a lot of the most popular artists are the most popular because rich white men who run the music industry chose to back them with a shit load of PR/advertising money.

Should the tastes and preferences of the rich white men who run the music corporations dictate who is considered to be true legends in hip hop culture?

See 50 Cent speak on the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcbqbfi6lhI

>What I'm saying is that a lot of the most popular artists are
>the most popular because rich white men who run the music
>industry chose to back them with a shit load of PR/advertising
>money.
>
>Should the tastes and preferences of the rich white men who
>run the music corporations dictate who is considered to be
>true legends in hip hop culture?

So is it something super special about these artists that make the "rich white men" choose to back them? Is it because they have nice shiny eyebrows or some shit? Or because they realize that their music is going to appeal the most, musically and image wise? Is it even because they enjoy their music more?

>>What I'm saying is that a lot of the most popular artists
>are
>>the most popular because rich white men who run the music
>>industry chose to back them with a shit load of
>PR/advertising
>>money.
>>
>>Should the tastes and preferences of the rich white men who
>>run the music corporations dictate who is considered to be
>>true legends in hip hop culture?
>
>So is it something super special about these artists that make
>the "rich white men" choose to back them? Is it because they
>have nice shiny eyebrows or some shit? Or because they realize
>that their music is going to appeal the most, musically and
>image wise? Is it even because they enjoy their music more?
>

In short I suspect it's because they think that the music+image+story of the artist is compelling enough that, when drilled ad nauseum in to the heads of stupid young white Americans, it will sell a lot.

What I'm saying is, if we choose who we consider to be legends in hip hop based on whether or not they become house hold names in white America, i think that's problematic. Who cares if these baby boomers know who Snoop Doggy Dogg is? It's not like they care for his music.

I'm just going off of intuition here cos it seems wrong to put such a huge weight on popularity in choosing who the legends are, given the influence of these corporations in the mix.

In saying this I acknowledge that you can't be an entire unknown and be considered a legend. Most rappers besides Lil B and Company Flow had some kind of record label behind them.

But it seems wrong to regard pop star status and being known in white households as being a prerequisite of becoming a legend in hip hop.

Shouldn't it be 'the people of hip hop' who ultimately decide who the hip hop legends are, as opposed to corporate pricks in three piece suits who don't even care about the music beyond the money it makes them?

wish it was.

There are a grip of young tight jean wearing kids who know hip-hop and have a pretty diverse palette of what is good music. It ain't the 90s no more...cats can find whatever music they want, whenever they want.

I ain't dismissing the underground at all, cuz there are quite a few legends of this era who are underground as hell (and what is "underground", really in this era?),but "mainstream" hip-hop ain't the crap it once was

>wish it was.
>

I'm not saying it's easy to define. But I am suggesting that people who don't like hip hop in the first place, e.g. your average white grandma, 'baby boomers', teenage girls whose only hip hop on their playlist is Drake and Love Lockdown, could be safely excluded from the equation.

DJ Premier has co-signed Drake too so let's not act like official cats ain't feeling the kid. I understand if the "real" hip hoppers don't like him but let's not act like true fans of hip hop don't fuck with Drake as well.

>DJ Premier has co-signed Drake too so let's not act like
>official cats ain't feeling the kid. I understand if the
>"real" hip hoppers don't like him but let's not act like true
>fans of hip hop don't fuck with Drake as well.

I'm not addressing Drake specifically, I'm talking about the 11yr old girl in the household with a couple hip hop songs on her ipod. It could be Rakim but more likely it's gonna be Rhianna feat Drake.

Does the fact this little girl and her grandma don't know who Rakim is mean he is not a legend in hip hop? Should pop star status/household name status really be a determinant?

>>DJ Premier has co-signed Drake too so let's not act like
>>official cats ain't feeling the kid. I understand if the
>>"real" hip hoppers don't like him but let's not act like
>true
>>fans of hip hop don't fuck with Drake as well.
>
>I'm not addressing Drake specifically, I'm talking about the
>11yr old girl in the household with a couple hip hop songs on
>her ipod. It could be Rakim but more likely it's gonna be
>Rhianna feat Drake.
>
>Does the fact this little girl and her grandma don't know who
>Rakim is mean he is not a legend in hip hop? Should pop star
>status/household name status really be a determinant?

i'm trying to understand where this whole pop star, white household determines who's a legend came from? who said that? we said you have to have major impact on hip hop to be considered a legend.

as a crucial demographic to artistic merit, though

and to me, throwing that idea in there is kinda what I mean when I say the mainstream ain't what it was

as being a prerequisite of becoming a legend in hip hop. don't artist like DOOM, Madlib and others owe white households for their careers? Their fan base is mostly white right?

Good Point

so are wu tangs, tupacs, 50s, dip sets, etc. the ratio of black fans the roots, lib, doom have in comparison to those listed that are popular, would be proportional.

Also tribe. Plenty of black people know Doom, though. I got turned onto him by this black kid from Atlanta who didn't even own a computer. I brought him up at my coffee shop and the African immigrant kid who works there knew him. Neither of them knew BDK. I don't know if my anecdote is as scientific as asking my girlfriend but that's what I've got.

I don't understand why T.I. isn't a legend. He has at least one classic, got a lot of critical acclaim, crystallised the trap genre, got as much of a push from his mixtapes as 50 did... what is he missing?

>Also tribe. Plenty of black people know Doom, though. I got
>turned onto him by this black kid from Atlanta who didn't even
>own a computer. I brought him up at my coffee shop and the
>African immigrant kid who works there knew him. Neither of
>them knew BDK. I don't know if my anecdote is as scientific as
>asking my girlfriend but that's what I've got.
>
>I don't understand why T.I. isn't a legend. He has at least
>one classic, got a lot of critical acclaim, crystallised the
>trap genre, got as much of a push from his mixtapes as 50
>did... what is he missing?

Like my man said about dilla up top, go into any barbershop in the hoods of America and ask them about DOOM or Madlib and see the looks you get. I'm black and I know DOOM but I'm not the average rap fan in the hood. You talking about coffee shops and African immigrants. Come on fam.

thank you..lol

>so are wu tangs, tupacs, 50s, dip sets, etc. the ratio of
>black fans the roots, lib, doom have in comparison to those
>listed that are popular, would be proportional.

Wu, 2Pac, 50, Dipset, etc got love in the hood. That's where hip hop started so it don't matter how many white fans they have. The white fans don't make or break them. DOOM and Madlib ain't getting play in the hood. The white fans are their bread & butter.

so the "authentic" black folk in the hood are the ones that matter, not any of us who exist outside that "vast scope"... gotcha

The hood is the heart of hip hop. You can take it how you want. You guys came in here talking about having to be pop stars and being a household name in white homes is required to be a legend. Just flipping peoples words to fit your agendas. A legend has major impact on rap music. There are only a few legends in the game. DOOM, Madlib and some of these other cats y'all came in here naming aren't legends.

of people your replying to

but YALL said popularity is a part of being a legend. when folks countered with not as many people AS YOU think know who Ra, BDK, KRS, Slick Rick, etc are... than y'all changed it to does the barber shop know who you are?

y'all have no footing or consistency to your claims. Unlike you and Thanes, KRS, Wu, Pac, Ra, Slick Are legends... as well as YE, Jay, Em, ect... and as well as Dilla, Lib, DOOM and El-P. but have it your way

i aint even gunna touch that "the hood, is the heart of hip hop" arguement

>of people your replying to
>
>but YALL said popularity is a part of being a legend. when
>folks countered with not as many people AS YOU think know who
>Ra, BDK, KRS, Slick Rick, etc are... than y'all changed it to
>does the barber shop know who you are?

if you look at my response at the top you will see that I said you have
to have impact on a major scale. He brought in the pop star talk. If
you look at the legends of the past they were popular in their era. LL,
Rakim, KRS, etc. Those that weren't like a Kool G have directly influenced
someone who became great, Nas.

>
>y'all have no footing or consistency to your claims. Unlike
>you and Thanes, KRS, Wu, Pac, Ra, Slick Are legends... as well
>as YE, Jay, Em, ect... and as well as Dilla, Lib, DOOM and
>El-P. but have it your way

I have been consistent throughout. The guys I named have impacted hip
hop on a major scale. They either influenced a legend or had their hands
in legendary projects. The talk of pop stars, being household name in
white households and the other BS was brought to the table by other
people.

>
>i aint even gunna touch that "the hood, is the heart of hip
>hop" arguement

and I'm not gonna keep going back and forth with the Madlib debate.
I'm a fan of his music but he hasn't had significant impact on hip
hop IMO and at the end of the day we're arguing over opinions so i'm
done.

good discussion overall

>as being a prerequisite of becoming a legend in hip hop.
>don't artist like DOOM, Madlib and others owe white households
>for their careers? Their fan base is mostly white right?

Yeah man of course - I go to hip hop shows and it's always mostly white people there. By household I don't just mean the 22 yr old son who is genuinely into hip hop, I mean everyone in the household, the parents, granddad, the 6 year olds..

I'm trying to rebut the idea that an artist must be a household name / a pop star / known to people who don't even like hip hop - for him to be considered a legend in hip hop.

Because how do they get to that pop star status? Yes talent and hard work is there, a captivating image or back-story, but in most cases there is also a corporate machine behind them that is blasting their image out to the world.

How much of a part should those corporate interests (which are a key part in an artist becoming a household name) play in determining who is considered the legends in hip hop?

I'm not even talking about corporate or labels....people are just naming people they like calling the Legends. The term should be kind of self explanatory. I understand your comment and this isnt against you...just a general statement

Lupe
Lil' Wayne

I'd say Jay-Z cemented himself with the 2000's

Lupe is not a Hip Hop legend ....dope artist though...great lyrics

who listen to nothing but Lupe
Lupe's fans are hardcore and he has a lot of them

Lupe made being different possible for a popular MC.

I don't think many of yall realize how big Lupe and Pharrell are to younger people.

Lupe Fiasco is the only reason a lot of people even got into Hip-Hop, me for one.

Lupe will end up in Hip-Hops greater canon.

Just Blaze
Kanye West
Timbaland
Neptunes

anyone else?

Yep, you got it right. Not sure who else would be considered legends in regard to producers. There are some great ones but legend is rare word to me..

There's a clear difference between calling someone a legend and fanboyism.

Some of these guys got their skirt pulled.

(Edit: And, no, I don't have an agenda. I like almost every artist mentioned in this thread.)

and thats u and ur crew

on that bullshit

got utterly destroyed in this post

the only thing left ro do is to circle jerk each other to rebuild ur self esteem

you ride or die for Madlib and when people don't agree with you you just throw insults. Everybody in here gave Madlib props. They just don't agree that he's a legend.

of the many ppl that yall have claimed as legends, EVEN if i may disagree bc u certainly can make an argument


but, the evidence presented in this post by many posters re: madlib being a legend is STILL outright dismissed by u guys, and u alk cant even admit the reasons why!

ie FOH son

I told you the reason why I don't think he's a legend. I don't see the major impact he has on rap music. Still doesn't stop me from being a fan of his music.

u chose to ignore it

>u chose to ignore it

i didn't ignore it. I just don't think his impact on rap is large enough to consider him a legend. If y'all want to call him an underground legend or whatever, cool.

He's one of my favorites of the decade. No fucking way he's a legend in the game.

my guess is it has little to do w/ actual music or musical influence

I'm almost leaning more your way because I pulled my Quasimoto joints out today and heard samples he flipped first that have been used by Alchemist and on Jay-Z's Kingdom Come LP so his impact has bleed into the majors a little.

respect

Thanks my G...it was a good discussion..

Everyone named there in ur list are straight up Dilla stans, save Timb, but even he wouldn't front....

How is that NOT legend when ur PEERS look up to your work?

Do music that they want you to say is dope?

And ALSO everyone in that list wouldn't dare say Lib isnt a legend in the game.

People saying that Madlib is NOT a legend are buggin the fugg out!

He is.

Madlib only a legend on okayplayer fam. I love his music and he is dope but only a legend on okayplayer.