For lack of a better way of putting it, I'll call it the "that part should be the WHOLE SONG" principle. As evidenced by the extending of breaks by the early hip hop djs and the production aesthetic that quickly became standard. Not a lot of change-ups, lots of repetition--basically the invention of "the beat."

It's a principle that proven both for the danceable club hits and the trance-inducing head nod backpack shit. You get to the good stuff immediately, and then you keep repeating it. Yes hooks, but even those subscribe to this principle for the most part and they're certainly not a must for quality hip hop.

Thinking about it, it seems like only recently have there been hits that depart from this principle--mostly the Kanye factor of more dynamic musical backdrops, or some of the messes Minaj is putting out.

I realized that even though at times I've thought it would be good if rappers rapped over stuff that keeps moving and progressing, most of the time when it happens ironically enough, I feel like something is missing.

This post was inspired by listening to Skyzoo's The Definitive Prayer, where he raps over a complete Axelrod instrumental, matching his vocal delivery to the changing song. It really is amazing, but at the same time, I don't know if it's just a novelty that's good for one song, but is somehow missing an important part of what makes hip hop work.

Thoughts? Examples that break this rule? Is it an outdated way of looking at hip hop, or still relevant?

this is closely aligned with the producer vs beatmaker discusion

If it's a good rap over a good beat it's a good song. Besides, plenty of artists that people tend to get put on the producer side of the producer vs. beatmaker debate still adhere to the standard I described. It's not like Dr. Dre is writing dynamic compositions for his hits... it's easy to grasp hip hop beats.

Even Kanye, his digressions seem to be tacked on at the end of songs and the truth is probably no one would miss them if he ditched them.

but when u compare a lot of the older hip hop which is pretty much rhymer over a continous beat vs some of the more musical hip hop of today if done well there is a marked diffrence in terms of completness

> but when u compare a lot of the older hip hop which is
>pretty much rhymer over a continous beat vs some of the more
>musical hip hop of today if done well there is a marked
>diffrence in terms of completness

True, but even though hip hop songs have more elements in them, more layers to the beats, choruses, bridges, etc. most are still "grooves" relying on repetition of samples, riffs, etc. But you do have stuff emerging that is more about the melody and the shifting composition. My question is if that's the future or just a little diversion that kind of goes against why people like hip hop in the first place.

and not just a passing phase as almost everything else fundamental to hip hop is slowely going away

i.e.

dj/turntables
dancers
not biteing/originality
actually being able to emcee
performing to "move the crowd"
etc

these are all foundational elements that are becoming rare in what is now called "hip hop" but what I call rap music

but if i had to...
i'd say that there is room for both approaches.
i know what you mean by heavy layering and chopping still relies on a looped pattern...
its still a repeating 4, 8, or even 16 bars (like some of El-P earlier Co Flow stuff)...
with elements coming in and out...
i don't think the repetitive approach will die...
one thing i don't see directly discussed much is the idea of hypnotism.
for example, there is a reason why traditional african ritual drum music survives and is celebrated today
despite being thousands of years old...
if u've ever been to an african ritual, there is a certain hypnotism and enormous energy to the constant repetition of certain drum patterns
i've always thought that hip hop was a modern descendant of that hypnotic feeling that repeating patterns bring.
its quite an ancient and innate part of the human musical legacy.
in ritual music they may repeat the same pattern for hours...
and participants gradually become engrossed in the pattern...
repetitive chanting music is similar..
i know i am getting esoteric here...
but i think its directly related..
when i was a kid i remember taping a mix show where funk flex was cutting up the beginning of Crewz Pop by Da Youngstaz...
i remember taking the tape and doing a pause mix of it to fill up a whole side....just the intro and flex's cutting...on constant repeat.
i couldn't get enough of it.

i think there will always be fans that will want that feeling...

i also love elaborate chord progression, key changes, and non-repetitive stuff too...by repeating patterns ain't going nowhere imo

>one thing i don't see directly discussed much is the idea of
>hypnotism.
>for example, there is a reason why traditional african ritual
>drum music survives and is celebrated today
>despite being thousands of years old...
>if u've ever been to an african ritual, there is a certain
>hypnotism and enormous energy to the constant repetition of
>certain drum patterns
>i've always thought that hip hop was a modern descendant of
>that hypnotic feeling that repeating patterns bring.
>its quite an ancient and innate part of the human musical
>legacy.

The hip hop beat, which I do believe is a distinct and differentiated type of beat, really does have a mesmerizing effect--the head nod factor. It's crazy to me when a producer adds hip hop drums to a sample and all of the sudden it gets re-contextualized into something that's almost trance-inducing and has kind of a spiritual effect on you. Example: Group Home - Up Against the Wall (Getaway Car Mix)

coming back

Thought that didn't have much to do with hip hop in the 70's until the end of the decade when the records started getting put out. Not really a part of the "foundation."

I wasn't there so if I'm misinformed let me know.

i'm inclined to believe that even if live instruments were there, they were just playing the breaks.

As opposed to full on bands with a rapper, like Earth Wind and Fire + Melle Mel type steez, where the instrument players mimick what we here in this new strand/mutation of production that you speak of above.

one
k. orr

and however you do it, good for you

And I'd say that the extending of the good part WAS the way the hip hop pioneers kept the crowd hype.

as far as the other part, my comment still holds

if looping a break does it: fine

if another method words....go for it

lately seems a lot of condescending on OKP lately regarding loops...
if its dope, its dope.
looping can be dope...in 2012
more elaborate arrangements with bridges, etc are also dope
madlib is regarded highly on these boards, and still loops like crazy.
knxwledge is an example of a young cat doing the same...
looping got its lane, and plenty of fans still support it.
not sure why this keeps coming up.

my question is why people are so concerned about the (supposed) demise of looping?

if u dnt like loops, just listen to whatever electro produced stuff thats out there...there certainly isn't a shortage of it

^ the only 'rule' that matters.

Late 80's-REALLY early 90's Hip-Hop actually often had a lot (well, at least one) notable change-ups in the songs. See:Public Enemy, De La Soul, Big Daddy Kane (yup!), NWA, "Amerikkkas most wanted"/"Death certificate"-era Ice Cube etc. Basically, I don't really view this as a founding principle but rather something that was hinted at and later became the norm for a while...

i'd speculate that producers like dre, bomb squad and prince paul were forced by sample clearance laws to avoid the cost and inconvenience of adding bridges, loops, etc. the modern rise of beat-changes is the result of people using keyboards instead of digging for samples.

^ all that matters.

there are no other rules.

I guess it's interesting to me to discuss which of those precedents are the most enduring and who is doing a good job of bucking them and who is trying but failing. When I like or don't like a song, it's interesting to me to think of why.

This was never meant to be a hip hop police post, where I create some retroactive standard and then proclaim this is hip hop and this isn't.