Biggie arguably showed on his first album that he had all the attributes being one of the best if not the best to ever embrace Hip Hop.

A great storyteller with a unique and original voice who could make any kind of song (radio or non radio), who could hold his own on stage as well. Bruh was talented.

Poll question: Where does Biggie rank among the greatest of all time?

Poll result (38 votes) Number 1. He's the G.O.A.T. (13 votes) Vote Top 3 (4 votes) Vote Top 5 (8 votes) Vote Top 10 (13 votes) Vote

obviously, jay is the overall GOAT. but no one was *better* than biggie. i get why people argue about his longevity or whatever, but listen to some if the stanzas from "long kiss" and think about the fact it came out 15 years ago. it's not just the vivid lyrics, it's the cadence and intonation. shit could have come out yesterday.

short change niggas
snort 'caine niggas
extortion came quicker
bought the range, nigga

blood rushin'
concussion
ain't nothing
catch cases
come out frontin'
smoking something

bleedin' lovely
with your spirit above me
or beneath me
ya whole life ya live sneaky
now you rest eternally sleepy
you burn when you creep me
rest where the worms and the weak be
my nine flies, baptize rap guys
with the holy ghost
i put holes in most
you hold your toast shaky
slip and try to break me
look what you made me do
brains blew
my team in the marine blue
six coupe
skeeted out
weeded out
clean it out
the block for distances
giving long kisses, bitch

What makes Jay-Z the G.O.A.T. if Biggie is better?

Well, not to me and many other people, anyway. "Best" refers to skill and skill alone, while "greatness" applies to things like legacy, impact, etc., along with skill.

>obviously, jay is the overall GOAT. but no one was *better*
>than biggie. i get why people argue about his longevity or
>whatever, but listen to some if the stanzas from "long kiss"
>and think about the fact it came out 15 years ago. it's not
>just the vivid lyrics, it's the cadence and intonation. shit
>could have come out yesterday.
>
>short change niggas
>snort 'caine niggas
>extortion came quicker
>bought the range, nigga
>
>blood rushin'
>concussion
>ain't nothing
>catch cases
>come out frontin'
>smoking something
>
>bleedin' lovely
>with your spirit above me
>or beneath me
>ya whole life ya live sneaky
>now you rest eternally sleepy
>you burn when you creep me
>rest where the worms and the weak be
>my nine flies, baptize rap guys
>with the holy ghost
>i put holes in most
>you hold your toast shaky
>slip and try to break me
>look what you made me do
>brains blew
>my team in the marine blue
>six coupe
>skeeted out
>weeded out
>clean it out
>the block for distances
>giving long kisses, bitch
>
>
>

you think that shit right there is a good reflection of a rappers coLdest set of stanza's?


big was nice, but he is way over-rated in the context of rap. and you have him top 3?

Well respected by peers, immensely talented, but not enough output and wasn't around long enough to be the best in my opinion.


He doesn't hold up to the vets and wasn't well rounded enough to transcend generations. I can't play 3 biggie songs in a row to my daughter without cringing when he spits that gutter shit, but we jam to Digable, 'Kast, Tribe, and Krs-1 all the time. In my opinion all of that goes into being the best, how will the music touch the next generations?

But dammit, if he wasn't up there. He was a monster.


Kev

.

Clifford is def the better example -- young, blazing, highest level of mastery of their version of the form when tragically removed from the scene (at almost the exact same age).

so the example doesn't work even if you threw out the shaky foundation jazz/hip-hop parallels might have.

...well said, cat is in the top 20 though....

>I can't play 3 biggie songs in a row
>to my daughter without cringing when he spits that gutter
>shit

Don't know if I'd add the "doesn't hold up to vets" part, unless that's strictly about output. There also weren't a ton of "well-rounded" (if that means what i think it means) solo acts to date in either art form when the referenced artist died. Both artists exemplified the absolute artistic peaks of their lane/sub-genre of the form at their passing.

nm

and i'll take his few records over the Camel's anyday or any of these turkeys who came out after he passed. his story telling, humor and wit were all ill. it ain't about Quanity its about quality and Biggie got it right for the most part with his own lane. he could also do your style and go back to his within a wink.

The GOAT imo

2pac might not be a better rapper but he released 4 albums AND went to jail in the span of time it took Biggie to release 2 (Not used to start a 2pac vs Biggie war, just as a timeline). And personally only one of his albums is a classic so it looks even worse in my books.

...its his 2nd album that I'm not crazy about ...its a double album, and i can barely pick out 5 dope tracks

>...its his 2nd album that I'm not crazy about ...its a double
>album, and i can barely pick out 5 dope tracks

seems weird that Life After Death wasn't hated on the same or more. It took commercial rap to a new level (For better or worse) and imo had way less good to classic songs despite having more songs to choose from.

....Puffy didnt want those 2 tracks but BIG insisted on them

>>...its his 2nd album that I'm not crazy about ...its a
>double
>>album, and i can barely pick out 5 dope tracks
>

Hypnotize, Going Back to Cali, Kick in the Door, Somebody's Got to Die, Notorious Thugs, Story to Tell, My Downfall, Fucking You Tonight, Missing You, Mo' Money Mo' Problems, What's Beef, 10 Crack Commandments, Sky's the Limit, The World Is Filled....

You either haven't heard it or are blatantly hating if you don't think there are 5 dope songs on that album

Hypnotize <<NO, CORNY
Going Back to Cali <<HORRIBLY CORNY
Kick in the Door << DOPE
Somebody's Got to Die <<< MEH
Notorious Thugs <<WORST SONG ON ALBUM
Story to Tell <<<DOPE
My Downfall <<MEH
Fucking You Tonight <<MEH
Missing You <<NO
Mo' Money Mo' Problems <<PUFFY & MASE RAPPIN?? NO THANKS
What's Beef <<ITS OK
10 Crack Commandments <<<DOPE
Sky's the Limit <<DOPE
The World Is Filled.... <<<MEH
>
>You either haven't heard it or are blatantly hating if you
>don't think there are 5 dope songs on that album

You picked out a lot of BAD songs homeboy.. if i'm a hater that makes you a cornball..

else a cornball because they like those tracks? SMH

All his taste is in his mouth.

....dont act like LAD is some universally loved album like R2D ...LAD is Puffy's vision of an album that has something that appeals to EVERYONE, which is why the entire package doesn't appeal to A LOT of people ...the one thing you hear about LAD that you almost NEVER hear about R2D is theres songs that people don't like

Biggie had some straight up CORNY songs on this album.. "going back to cali" homie, are you REALLY going to argue this isn't corny?? I mean, it feels like a Puffy album, like he just picked out a bunch of nonsense and said "hey Big, we can sell a billion records if you rap on this"

>2pac might not be a better rapper but he released 4 albums
>AND went to jail in the span of time it took Biggie to release
>2 (Not used to start a 2pac vs Biggie war, just as a
>timeline). And personally only one of his albums is a classic
>so it looks even worse in my books.

Pac only released 3 albums in that time period of when Biggie released 2 when both were actively in the game. Strictly 4 My Niggaz was released a year before Biggie even released his own. And while a great work ethic does count so does quality. And about how many of those 3 Pac albums get counted for as a classics? At least 1, so it could arguably be tied between (how many classics either has) the two of them for that. And besides, while Pac put out more albums, it won't like Big won't working. Biggie was writing/working for/with Junior Mafia who put out an album and Kim's first album along with doing the guest feature thing on tracks.

It's not a solo album but he was on every track and was head of the group. Not to mention how much stuff 2pac recorded that wasn't released until after he died. And regardless if 2pac only had 1 classic, I'll sure as hell take AEOM or TDK:T7DT over LAD.

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

don't love Big will at least give you the debut.

Me Against The World is easily a classic. It's his most consistent (Lyrically, sonically and quality-wise), it's on tons of top album lists, went #1 and was the album that took him to the next level. By denying it's not a classic you're just trying to make your opinion seem universal. Sorry if you think that LAD is a good or great album.

the pleas people cop for BIG are sometimes unreal...

They will literally attempt to trash Pac/Jay/Nas or whoever but give BIG a pass for the EXACT same stuff...

>Me Against The World is easily a classic. It's his most
>consistent (Lyrically, sonically and quality-wise), it's on
>tons of top album lists, went #1 and was the album that took
>him to the next level. By denying it's not a classic you're
>just trying to make your opinion seem universal. Sorry if you
>think that LAD is a good or great album.

Pretending that's in the category of Ready To Die, The Chronic, Low End & a host of other canonical/widely-accepted classics is doing too much.

Pac was a songs artist more than an albums artist, there's no shame in that. It's a byproduct of the torrid pace he worked, a rap James Brown if you will.

I find most of his biggest fans consume his music in that same fashion, I got dudes that will damn near fight me for not having Pac on my short list of MCs but I can't remember the last time any of them put on Me Against The World & let that shit ride front-to-back in my presence.

And when he was alive I heard Strictly & the double-album more.

Pac sometimes gets hated because of his fans...its wierd.

He was more of a song artist, I'll give you that.

And Strictly is under-rated by hip hop and his fans IMO

>And when he was alive I heard Strictly & the double-album
>more.
>

2pac was more about individual songs than cohesive albums sure but I would say that Me Against The World is a cohesive album. It's got a theme throughout (Paranoia, contemplating mortality, trying to get free, etc.), like most hip hop albums it doesn't stay within just 1 sound (Even Ready To Die is all over the map at times) but does try to stay within a sonic range (Mostly beats reflecting the paranoid, dark subject matter).

Just b/c it's not a game-changer like Low-End Theory or The Chronic doesn't mean it can't be a classic. IMO Beastie Boys "Check You Head" is a classic, but I don't hold it in the same place as those other albums. Just like I'd say that Neil Young's "On The Beach" album is a classic but I wouldn't hold it up there with "Harvest" or "After The Goldrush"

album


I'd gamble the average casual person calling it a classic couldn't recite
half the album's playlist

They just happen to know that remix like folks know the Meth/Mary 'All I Need' that isn't on Tical or Cube's Grandmaster-Flash-version of 'Check Ya Self' that ain't on The Predator.

People know the opening sequence with the time-elapsed intro that sets the scene into 'Things Done Changed', then Gimme The Loot, Machine Gun Funk & Warning at least (or at least they'll recognize the transitions as they're listening if they aren't the type to know order).

Then you still got *at least* Juicy, The What, Big Poppa, & Unbelievable as iconic tracks.

Please.

The album tells a story from start to finish while Big puts on a display in emceeing to make it a record that can sit comfortably amongst the solo masterpieces of its era as well as possessing a cinematic/thematic quality like RZA was doing during that same time period.

to call him top 5, GOAT, NY's finest, blah blah blah is complete
garbage. There are waaaaay to many artist's with classic debuts and
even better follow ups than BIG.

He got shot, it was emotional, and cats are still delusional. I'm
embarrassed to be having this discussion over 15 years later.

I'd like to hear someone's point of view on what he actually brought
to the genre that wasn't already there.

just like Nirvana, Big did come in with his own style and was accessible from the start thanks to Puff's marketing.

and while Big was dope and did what he did well, he opened up a lane for every MC after him to try to go down and let's just say that lane has led us to the super commercial bullshit that we see now.

I do put more blame for that on Puff but Big was the face. So I can't say he didn't bring anything to the genre, but I can say that doors he opened didn't lead to a good place.

and in my opinion, he was never the greatest. Back in 94 there were so many dope artists and even on Ready To Die, people were still placing Meth in that spot which makes his guest appearance so dope.

and you had Nas, AZ, Mobb, the entire Wu and many more MCs who were loved just as much as Big in regard to the skill level. It just so happens that Big had the most success which made him more easy to crown by people who weren't really even hip-hop heads.

and by the time LAD dropped, which most hip-hop heads thought was decent but WAAAAY too commercial, the line had really been drawn in the sand.

add him passing and Puff and Jay shouting from the hilltops that Big was the GOAT and you get everyone and their moms saying he's the best ever which really was never the case.

so yes, he was dope and he did have his own style but he was not head and shoulders above anyone.

That the east coast struggled so much with 'hooks' and/or making overtly likeable songs that still had good rapping. Most cats have to Kurupt it up (almost randomly use bigger words to give off the impression of lyrical spazzing) to have a song that sounds lyrical. And when those same cats go to make a song about women, they either try to redo Ice Cream (and fail) or they can't open the door with a 'some say the x makes the sex spec-tacular'. And club songs...even worse.

Honestly, I think a lot of Combs for making BIG stretch out a little bit. Juicy was excellent and BIG didn't even want to go in on that. If other folks could really pull it off, BIG stop coming up as a harshly-argued top 3. Jay never really got in the pocket like BIG did, but he was close enough once he slowed it down that folks rolled with it. I still think the world of RD-Vol 2 JayZ..Stalley does too apparently.

People not liking I Love the Dough is insane to me, but whatever.

Jimaveli

>just like Nirvana, Big did come in with his own style and was
>accessible from the start thanks to Puff's marketing.
>
>and while Big was dope and did what he did well, he opened up
>a lane for every MC after him to try to go down and let's just
>say that lane has led us to the super commercial bullshit that
>we see now.
>
>I do put more blame for that on Puff but Big was the face. So
>I can't say he didn't bring anything to the genre, but I can
>say that doors he opened didn't lead to a good place.
>
>and in my opinion, he was never the greatest. Back in 94
>there were so many dope artists and even on Ready To Die,
>people were still placing Meth in that spot which makes his
>guest appearance so dope.
>
>and you had Nas, AZ, Mobb, the entire Wu and many more MCs who
>were loved just as much as Big in regard to the skill level.
>It just so happens that Big had the most success which made
>him more easy to crown by people who weren't really even
>hip-hop heads.
>
>and by the time LAD dropped, which most hip-hop heads thought
>was decent but WAAAAY too commercial, the line had really been
>drawn in the sand.
>
>add him passing and Puff and Jay shouting from the hilltops
>that Big was the GOAT and you get everyone and their moms
>saying he's the best ever which really was never the case.
>
>so yes, he was dope and he did have his own style but he was
>not head and shoulders above anyone.

Your 'One More Chance' & 'they dont know what's on it' points flopped so now you're rattling on about things that have nothing to do with the subject in this back-and-forth.

No. Sorry. Classic. Cry. Bye.

Probably one of the most overrated rappers of all time. He was excellent, yes, but the GOAT? Nah

What do you value most in an MC? Body of work? Technical ability? Innovation? Influence? Subject matter? Respect among other rappers?

I could go on, but depending on which of those you said yes to, you got a very different answer.

Rakim is considered to be the most influential, innovative and game-changing MC in hip hop history, being the metaphorical bridge between what is now considered old school vs modern rapping. Every MC wanted to be Rakim in his day, and he cemented his greatness and importance in hip hop forever.

Biggie was the crossover rapper. He kinda reminds me of how the beatles were in their day: both the best and the most popular. In his day, he was the king of NY, the birthplace of the genre. Have there been rappers with a skill equal to his since? Sure, probably, but have any been as wildly successful while being the torchbearer? Maybe not, only person I can think of would be Eminem, to be honest...

And then you have the whole body of work/longevity/consistency category that frequently gets overlooked. Now you've eliminated a lot of candidates while shedding light on some of raps most underappreciated talents. Some that come to mind are Dre 3k, Black Thought, Jay-Z, etc. People who have proven their ability time and time again, and not a flash in the pan (see Canibus).

My personal answer would have to be Andre 3k. He's gotten it all: the number 1 singles, the body of work, the respect among his peers, the raw technical prowess, and has been quite influential.

I could see why Biggie would be the GOAT, but I think misses too many of the categories (probably because of his untimely death) to be numba won.

he has all the qualities of one deserving (particularly in a modern context); I may not agree (I don't even give the "absolute best" much thought nowadays), but I wouldn't be mad.

he was one of the more unlikely stars of rap, still imitated, and his life was unfortunately cut short (which tends to cause many to overrate him on one quality or another).

he was very, very good at what he did to the point it was painful to hear him dumbed down, but people liked it anyways.

There are many rappers that displayed more in two albums than Biggie did. His death effects his legacy because I can't say he's the G.O.A.T off of "what if's"

2Pac better.

great great talent,extremely raw could do it all...top 15

If I had been a teenager in the 80s, things might be different.

>Biggie arguably showed on his first album that he had all the
>attributes being one of the best if not the best to ever
>embrace Hip Hop.
>
>A great storyteller with a unique and original voice who could
>make any kind of song (radio or non radio), who could hold his
>own on stage as well. Bruh was talented.

He's in my 5. I'd only consider Pac firmly better.

His range was pretty sick..especially considering his catalog is about 100 songs deep. And his stuff holds up damn near 20 years later as slick, smart, hilarious, and just generally dope as all get out. He has to be top 10 overall unless cats are giving to much credit to cats who had less range or less overall to his work so his 'lyrix!' or his 'flow' or his 'catalog' is the focus. Chopping cats down to their first three albums makes the competition a whole lot different. Problem now though...judging a cat like BIG vs a dude now who has 100 songs every two years is just tough to do.

Jimaveli

And for those who struggle to find 5 good songs on LAD, i feel sorry for your taste in music. I can understand finding 5 absolute garbage songs on there tho (because there are).

you pathetic east coast purist

Yep. There are 5 dope songs on disc 1 alone. ...but anyway..

Biggie is in top 10 to me...no sure where...maybe betweetn #4-#8

How do people feel about the theory that he's only viewed as one of the best because he died?

Biggie was ranked high when he was alive as well.

I would say that MOST people who say he is the GOAT are saying it because he died.

The fact that people name him as the best or their favorite because it's the "cool" thing to do is because he died.

saying Big and Pac are the best is the safest opinion to have if you really don't know how to form an opinion because you don't know much about hip-hop.

I agree completely. As good as Biggie was, I think it's unfair to place him above rappers such as Andre 3000, Black Thought, Scarface or Q-Tip seeing that he only released two albums with no real diversity in subject.

Stop it.

again, this goes back to the greatest/favorite/best differences that I posted about.

Big is definitely the greatest among those dudes because he's just had that big of an impact.

but if you're talking skills, you could definitely make a case for Thought, 3000, and others.

I wouldn't even be mad at anyone for flat out listing Face ahead of him.

Face at this point to me is an underrated legend.

I can't name another MC with a career as consistent as Face.

From the Geto Boys all the way to his last official solo, he's damn near flawless.

The post says the greatest. If we're talking favorites, then you're right, I'm not mad at any of the artists he listed being ahead of Big.

I think I still reserve that greatest slot for The R though.

I won't argue with that at all. there's rap pre rakim and post rakim so we know the impact he had on rap.

Obviously it's completely subjective, but I'd put all four of them ahead of Biggie.

q-tip and black thought. seriously??? ughhh

So you accept Scarface is better than Big but not 3K, Thought and Q-Tip; why's that?

Pac had more albums under his belt which is why any discussion on him in the GOAT, top 10, etc etc makes more sense because even though he left early too, there's still more work to judge from.

I think the strongest case for B.I.G. is that the hype and admiration were just as high in life and after death ( no pun )< no pun again.

I think every fan sits around banging their head against the wall trying to imagine that alternate reality where this man is still alive. I won't say he was inarguably the greatest but as some have said above I'm not going to knock anybody who does.

Top ten dead and alive.

I don't get it... biggie is your #1 mc of all time??? Please explain if he is your #1 or top 3. If so, who is your top 5 ever? Very curious to hear more

so you are surprised by something that has been said since 97, if not 94?

it's pretty custom to list Big that high and whether you believe he is or not, you must live under a rock to be surprised by this post in 2012.

man, back in the day it was nothing but rap music for me. all day, every day. there was no other type of music getting listened to..... now.... as i've gotten older and matured, my tastes in music reflect my growth as a listener as well as artist and as a young man. so this list is more of a reflection of my youth.

before i get into my list, let me give you a little background.

i bought the ready to die cassette tape back when it came out within the first month when it was released. that tape got a bunch of play and i thoroughly enjoyed it. suicidal thoughts was probably my favorite joint on it... def a classic album. i bought the life after death cd the day it came out. another dope joint and i thoroughly enjoyed that one as well.

now.

what goes into to an honest "Top MC of all time list"? and how might that list differ from your Personal Favorite MC of all time list? are they exactly the same..? not necessarily in every instance. so i'm going to list my personal favorites with explanations why.

when judging an artist / mc, i guess this is how i rate them:

-style , how much do i feel that shit, flow , content , originality, prolificness

here might be my top few rhymers to get on the mic during their prime. all nicer then Big. and here's why..


-- nas is not my favorite mc nor is he ranked #1 to me. so this list isn't in order. but i'm going to start with nas tho. back when i was young, NAS first album and 2nd albums were my shit. i quit fucking with nas 100% after he dropped that piece of shit 3rd album. never fucked with him again after that or cared to listen to anything else from him. but back to the point. Biggie had 2 albums. and i'll just put Nas first 2 albums against biggies first 2. Nas has to win. ain't too much of a debate. technical flow, delivery, rhyme style, and overall impact to hiphop music at the time the records were released, and as well as historically speaking and looking back, nas is a better mc then Big in every sense of the word. so anybody having Big #1 on the list, even comparing east coast to east coast mc from the same era-- i can't feel you on this.


-- andre 3000 is my favorite rhymer of all time. i could write a thousand word e$$ay why. style. originality. flow. feeling. flavor. deeper words. a whole nother level of consciousness. big couldn't see 3000 in his prime if he wanted to. what i think is really funny is this: a lot of cat's from the mid 90's generation used to hate on "Gangster Rappers" and shit, and were defining real hiphop as like the east coast sound from like '93 - '98, but when you really listen to everything about notorious big- he was a fucking gangster rapper. blunts and broads, sex and minaj-a-trious. like, tell me what was the most poetic or deepest rhyme biggie ever wrote? what verse was his most lyrical verse? see, andre came from a region of the united states - -against all odds- - during an era of rap where if you wasn't from NY or possibly Cali-- you really wasn't getting any real props like that. and he said fuck you thru style and poetry and flavor, and the rest is history. so big ain't even in the same bracket.

--- GURU. i really liked gang starr a lot. i had the cassette tape of Hard to Earn when it came out. that shit got a bunch of play too. so during the Daily Operation / Hard to Earn / Moment of Truth span, on a personal level-- what spoke to me more or what did i personally enjoy more? the 2 Biggie albums, or those 3 gang starr albums? i liked the 3 gang starr albums.... classics. i've always been a laid back beats type of motherfucker, and you know, in the 90's all the beats were hitting on those bpms.. and the way guru was rapping, you know, he was dropping all kinds of knowledge and rhymes and fly shit in his verses; giving you game. biggie was rhyming, but I'm voting Guru over Big here too. i liked guru's style, how he was coming with his flavor, and what he was talking about.

-- Cee-lo specifically and the goodie mob collectively on the first 2 albums. I mean there is no debating, in terms of an Artist, that cee lo is far superior to Big as an artist. rhyming, songwriting, singing... there is no debating that cee-lo is much more poetic, and was busting the deeper content either. cee-lo, i fucked with his whole style way more then big's. 'Lo is the ultimate poet, ultimate writer, and ultimate artist.

-- now we gotta go here: PAC. how i grew up, you had to pic one or the other in about '96... but before '96, you had: Ready to Die. Me Against the World. You had the Poetic Justice movie. You had the JUICE movie. and you had the Above the Rim movie. and on that soundtrack you had the Tupac song "PAIN". So even before you had to pick, I had the Ready to Die cassette tape, the Me Against the World cassette tape, and the Above the Rim cassette tape with the PAIN song on it. Biggie never made one song that I felt as hard as i felt Tupac's PAIN. that beat, the way he spit on that joint, and what i was going thru as a teenager riding around in my car getting high as fuck and drunk as fuck just rolling.... big wasn't the artist that Pac was. Pac was 100% feeling. and nobody in rap music history made more motherfuckers 'feel' him that Pac did. Back to Me Against the World. Classic. Felt the whole shit. Then, did we mention the HIGH TIL I DIE track from (what soundtrack was that shit off of? poetic justice?) plus the shit Pac did with Digital Underground like "I get Around"... And what about that fuckin THUG LIFE album? Straight Ballin, for a long time in my life, was my favorite song ever. Did we mention the MC BREED song "I Gotta Get Mine" featuring Pac? And all the movies Pac was in? the cultural impact he had before he ever released the All Eyez on Me double album? his prolificness as the most prolific rapper ever in the shorest period of time? pac always was an introspective "conscious" rapper too--- just as much as a Common or Chuck D, albeit in an entirely different way. Big was never and will never ever every fuck with PAC and they should never be mentioned in the same sentence as artists even tho they will be. there really is no comparison.

-- black thought. in terms of technical ability, prolificness, style or content... ain't no competition here either. black thought probably deserves to be, historically, possibly the #1 MC of all time as a pure MC. He has the catalog to prove it. like, bar-for-bar, Big ain't ever seeing Black Thought as an MC. 75 Bars. give me one notorious big song that is seeing this song from a raw MC'ing point of view. do you want more?!?! i can keep going...

--- now we all know Ice Cube done fell off a LONG time ago (but folks won't give the man his due respect for Lethal Injection... they want to stop giving him props after his 2nd album, but they should stop after the 3rd one....)... but let's put this in perspective. Big had 2 albums. Now take the first 2 Ice Cube albums. Not too many people are fucking with those 2 records. Cube was young and hungry as fuck, and he was the shit. his voice, style, flow, lyrics, content, topics, cultural impact then, and historic impact now. those beats..... that era. so i'll ask you: whose first 2 albums are better? the first 2 ice cube albums or the 2 Biggie albums? Ice Cube was a LITTLE before my time when those 2 albums came out.... and I bought the 2 biggie albums When they came out. but I got the Lethal Injection album when it came out--- and eventually got those first 2 Cube albums a few years later.... who would i vote had the better 2 albums? are we really not going to give this to Ice Cube? (how is Big in your top 5 all time again? lol)

-- technically , as an mc.... are you saying notorious big is a better rapper then Gift of Gab from Blackalicious? was Big a more poetic rapper? no? was Big deeper then Gab? no? did Big have more style than Gab? no? was Big flowing nicer then Gab? i don't think so man... then how could you put Big over Gab as a rapper? that's like putting Big over Black Thought. you just can't be honest with yourself or know what the fuck you're talking about and do that... now Big's mainstream recognition and cultural impact is definitely superior to Gift of Gab. there is no question about that. but as a rhymer, as a poet, as an artist, or as an mc, gift of gab is the pic.

-- Ghostface Killah is an interesting comparison. style points / flavor points? i mean ghost is one of the most flavorlicious original mc's ever the way he puts the words and stories together. original unique style right there. enjoyability factor is up for debate. mc-wise? this one is a matter of personal preference because you really can't deny either artist's merits here... but would you put Big over Ghostface? i'll let you decide

-- Common from One Day It'll All Make Sense and Like Water For Chocolate . vs. Biggie first 2 albums. I think I'm taking Common here....

this post is about where you rank BIG among the greats. if we're doing favorites i'll have niggas like Sadat X, Casual and Masta Ace on my list. none of them would be on my top 10 nor 20 greatest rappers of all time list.

How are you defining 'greatest' exactly? You say you wouldn't have Big on your list but would still put him up with the greats, I don't get it.

I got big in the top 50. My personal favorites are a lot of cats who make beats and rhyme too. I like style guys

>How are you defining 'greatest' exactly? You say you wouldn't
>have Big on your list but would still put him up with the
>greats, I don't get it.

BIG would be on both lists. I think the dude is nice. that's just me.
Take Rakim for instance. On my list of favorites he wouldn't be at the
top but he would on my list of greats because i'm aware of the impact
he had on the game when he came. you can clearly see the difference
before and after Rakim. when you talk about the greats you gotta look
at the accolades. sales, impact, critical and fan praise, etc. cats
like BIG, Pac, Jay, Nas, Rakim, Slick Rick, Ice Cube, KRS, LL, etc. got
that. you can't talk the greats and throw cats like Pharoahe Monch, Ras
Kass, etc. in the mix though they are dope emcees. that's just my
opinion though.

another thing, it's hard for me to put emcee's from groups in the top
10 because they didn't have to carry whole LP's by themselves. Pos,
Andre 3000, Q-Tip, Bun B, etc. are great but i can't place them over
solo acts who held down entire projects for dolo. me personally, the
top 15 slots are reserved for solo emcees then i start placing heavy
hitters from groups.

Every one of them. I gave explanations why for all of em

...the top 20 MCs are obviously all legendary all time great MCs ...shit, top 50 to 100 are all GREAT mc's ...most these cats have Biggie as their top MC because they've been TOLD that he's the best by someone else ..or the even more silly reason "some other great rapper even said it" LMAO

Not no. 1...But easily in my top 10...

Every rapper that's worth a damn will say he's an all time great. Top 3 storyteller, an innovator in punchline rap and a show stealer on every track he's featured on. A legend in his own time and at once the best MC in the business.

Liquid Swords GZA and 36 Chambers GZA & Wu Tang Foreva GZA. or Notorious BIG? better mc / lyricist / spitter?

5..
4..
3..
2..
1..

lol. B.I.G. ain't top money!

BIG is the better MC. GZA is the better lyricist.

see, and i bought both the biggie joints when they came out, and i never bought one single eminem record. but as far as a straight mc / spitter / lyricist / mc?

gotta give it up to emimen. big ain't spit like em.

we can keep going.

could someone who voted big as the best mc of all time please explain why you feel this way?

for one

sure, you can name a bunch of dudes that were better lyricists

or so and so did this that and the other better

but when you think about all of the attributes that go into mcing

BIG did it all

and usually better than everybody else

from 94'-97'

there was no other lyricist

it was BIG

and then everybody else

some cats like Nas or Pac would take that spot

and then BIG would drop some shit and take his spot back

from the street, to the club, to the storytelling, to the radio, to the ladies, etc...

NOBODY did all of that like BIG

then you factor in his voice, personality, image, etc...

= GOAT

id have put him in my top 5. life after death brought him down a few notches for me.

clipse
big daddy kane/kool g rap (tie)
saafir
kool keith
nas
wu-tang
ice cube
chuck d
DOOM

im missing out eminem, mobb deep, krs, geto boys and a ton of others...