"How will __________________ be viewed in history"
"Who had a better career?"
"Did this rapper influence this rapper?"

wtf

why does that kinda stuff completely overshadow valuing an artists full discography and body of work, only when we are talking about hip hop, but not other genres

this combination of looking at some artists as "underground bums", as well as 'no one who came out after 1999 can be in a GOAT discussion' mentality

as if 12+ years isn't enough to build a discography that people can prefer to say, Biggie's 3 albums of material, without being looked at as backpackers/nerds/idiots

Not to single out the one post in the Kanye post, but "Kanye as GOAT over LL, 2pac, and Jay?" as the options of what mainstream hip hop media will say

Who cares what they say

Why CAN'T people like Masta Ace, El-P, Count Bass D, Killer Mike, Aesop Rock, Devin The Dude, DOOM, Lupe, Mos Def, Brother Ali, Moka Only, Blueprint, Black Milk, etc., basically anyone with 5+ albums of material who has a dedicated following of fans who think their material is great be talked about on that level or higher (I'm not a fan of all of those artists, just naming a few I don't see any reason not to think of as all-time artist...some for both production + rhymes combined)



Who do you think SHOULD be in all-time great discussions based strictly off their body of work, but would be scoffed at by people with the 'underground bum'/cant be great after '97 mentality? For me, El-P, Brother Ali, CunninLynguists, and P.O.S. are a few...someone like Thavius Beck is so obscure that most would probably scoff at it but most of his stuff is pretty great to me and there's a lot of it...

You have to have some sort of impact to be discussed as one of the greats. Bottom line. There's no way around it. El-P impacted the sound of the "underground" during the bad boy takeover. His catalog and impact speaks for itself.

on the sound of music than Mos Def, should he be higher on the GOAT list???

Modern day grand puba. No way him or drake would be on my list of greats but drake does have more influence in hip hop for better or worse. Who has mos def influenced? Honest question.

modern day grand puba? lol

puba made classics with two different groups and by himself...

as well as produced classics for others

this puba talk is nonsense

and to take it a step further...your equating with mos with puba and placing him less than el-p would also mean

el-p >>> puba

which is utterly fucking ridiculous and el-p would tell u as much

>modern day grand puba? lol

yep. Legendary talent but half assed most of his career

>
>puba made classics with two different groups and by
>himself...

he has no classic album with or without Brand Nubian. In God We Trust
is the only classic out of that group IMO.

>
>as well as produced classics for others

name these classics because I'm not aware of his classic productions. I'm sure I've heard the songs though.

>
>this puba talk is nonsense

no it's not. he's overrated. none of his albums are classics and even the people he's worked with said he was lazy.

>
>and to take it a step further...your equating with mos with
>puba and placing him less than el-p would also mean
>el-p >>> puba
>
>which is utterly fucking ridiculous and el-p would tell u as
>much

no. i'm saying that Mos is a dude who had legendary talent but didn't live up to it. You can see Puba's influence on east coast hip hop during the early 90's. He had impact. Mos, not so much. I can't point out the people he influenced. No way am I putting El-P over Puba even though I dig El's music more.

>he has no classic album with or without Brand Nubian. In God
>We Trust
>is the only classic out of that group IMO.

All for One is the DEFINITIVE Brand Nubian album. you are SMOKING.

Masters of Cermony 'Sexy" is a classic

Positive K "Step up Front" is a classic

"2000" is a classic album...

classic MC Lyte joints

smfh


>>as well as produced classics for others
>
>name these classics because I'm not aware of his classic
>productions.

>>he has no classic album with or without Brand Nubian. In
>God
>>We Trust
>>is the only classic out of that group IMO.
>
>All for One is the DEFINITIVE Brand Nubian album. you are
>SMOKING.

depends on who you ask. I know plenty of people who say In God We Trust > One For All

>
>Masters of Cermony 'Sexy" is a classic
>
>Positive K "Step up Front" is a classic

so he produced some dope tracks

>
>"2000" is a classic album...

since when is 2000 a classic? it wasn't even a top 10 album of 95

>
>classic MC Lyte joints

so he did 2 cuts for Lyte. Am I missing something?

>
>smfh
>
>
>>>as well as produced classics for others
>>
>>name these classics because I'm not aware of his classic
>>productions.

>depends on who you ask. I know plenty of people who say In God
>We Trust > One For All

lol...really

one for all
slow down
everybody loves the sunshine
feels so good

those are the classics people associate with brand nubian...punks jump up is the only joint from the 2nd album that would played like those 4

i dont think you were there...

>>Masters of Cermony 'Sexy" is a classic
>>
>>Positive K "Step up Front" is a classic
>
>so he produced some dope tracks

so he produced some dope tracks? go listen to the masters of cermony album...puba was one of the first cats sampling breaks like that...and again thats like 1985!!! no one besides LL lasted from that era into the mid 90s and still putting out hits. thats pre KRS...pre Rakim

*i didnt even mention reel to reel that has a couple classic joints on it


>>"2000" is a classic album...
>
>since when is 2000 a classic? it wasn't even a top 10 album of
>95

this is my opinion...but i believe you'd be hard pressed to find 10 albums better. classic songs on there which is NOT arguable

>>classic MC Lyte joints
>
>so he did 2 cuts for Lyte. Am I missing something?

again...the johnny come lateness is showing. this was at a time when mostly everybody's production was in house... audio two/king of chill was handling production at first priority... so just the fact Puba and PMD got called in...kinda shows you they were sweated for beats... it wasnt like todays climate where everyone went and got hot joints from each other

** my main point is...the man is associated with so many classic joints over such a duration that its utterly ridiculous to try to dis him...cuz u only making yourself look uninformed

It's all opinion based at the end of the day. I'm not a Johnny come lately. My taste in hip hop was shaped by my uncles. Puba just wasn't in the mix. A classic is something you can take to any region and ask fans and the majority will say yes, that's a classic. I don't think you can do that with Puba's shit. Maybe you're an east coast dude and I know how y'all are about your artists. We can agree to disagree fam. It ain't that serious.

It's a little misguided to suggest an album isn't a classic because it wasn't big in ATL, Houston or Cali...

Rap was pretty regional until the mid 90's... I don't think it's fair to say this album or that album wasn't a classic because it didn't get spins in ATL or Houston.

That's like an NYC dude saying UGK or "insert hot southern rapper" didn't have classic material because it wasn't getting played at the LQ.

>It's a little misguided to suggest an album isn't a classic
>because it wasn't big in ATL, Houston or Cali...
>
If someone calls BG's Chopper City in the Ghetto a classic plenty people here will call foul

>Rap was pretty regional until the mid 90's... I don't think
>it's fair to say this album or that album wasn't a classic
>because it didn't get spins in ATL or Houston.
>
True. Rap has always been regional but there's the select few albums that got play everywhere. that's what makes it a classic. classic gets thrown around way too loosely here.

>That's like an NYC dude saying UGK or "insert hot southern
>rapper" didn't have classic material because it wasn't getting
>played at the LQ.

They say it all the time here. Check the archives

hes made almost 5 albums, if thats all he wants to make rather than one a year, then thats up to him. wheres the rule that says you have to constantly be in peoples faces to be a contender?

it bothers me because he didn't live up to his potential. I don't care if he made two albums just make 'em dope and he didn't do that IMO. I know people here champion Ecstatic but that shit wasn't classic. It wasn't on par with BOBS. Sorry. All of his albums have Mount Everest peaks but they hit tremendous lows with the exception of BOBS.

Ecstatic > BOBS

and even if YOU feel BOBS is his classic, all it takes is one. Kane anybody?

i won't even speak on Kane here. I'll just get buried

but mos is one of the greatest writers in hip hop history and drake is an OK/maybe above average technical rapper/writer. you don't even believe drake a better writer/lyricist than mos, stop it.

he's not a believable tough guy, but his raps about ennui are much better than Mos Def's entire range.

I'm not a big fan of either, but it's real clear that Drake connects way better with avg folks than Mos Def ever did.

one
k. orr

about in this thread...what does that have to do with their *musical* body of work?!?!

I could actually see the argument that "Take Care" and "So Far Gone" are more cohesive projects that connect emotionally with listeners than Mos's albums, and that make him the better overall musical artist...AND he carved out his own sound possibly more than Mos ever did...OK...i'll give you that.

But Mos at his best reaches highs Drake has never and will never reach as a writer or a rapper. And at this point overall has more great music IMO if you look at all of his work.

That's arguably Mos Def's best solo song.

I think we both know how that one would turn out,

one
k. orr

>That's arguably Mos Def's best solo song.
>
>I think we both know how that one would turn out,
>
>one
>k. orr

_______________________________

Slum Village & Mick Boogie – The Dirty Slums Mixtape
Planet Asia- Black Belt Theatre
Trouble - 431 Days

you cant be serious.

he maybe the only mainstream rapper willing to go there now but he's woeful at it.

this guy called Drake a better actor and singer, LOFL

Bamboozled, Monster's Ball, Cadillac Records, Hitchhikers Guide, and the Italian Job sons Drake's whole existence

so take your one measly little pick

not too mention MOS acting on broadway...

in topdog/underdog

lol...

wheelchair jimmy

.

man word to my stepmother nigga i swear thats gonna be my sig if i remember this shit (cut me some slack it's 5:50am and i been drinkin). somebody remind me :/

one of these is the epitome of hip-hop…and the other is an indiction of everything wrong with hip-hop…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BITmSJlhid4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uKSeyYFGRo

you tell me

that niggas love and they don't have a leg to stand on in their arguments
that's probably the #1 reason an artist's entire career doesn't get looked at

I mean it sucks that he died, and he could have really been another level of MC given more time. But his discog is just too light and too thin.

"Catalog" comes up in every goddamn argument in this forum. There is no shortage of posters here who go to the mat for artists based largely on how many good albums they released.

I think Lateef the Truth Speaker laid down one of my favorite twelves of all time with "The Wreckoning/The Quickening". This is the quickening. The immediacy of the now. It's a direct relationship to the imminence of the future (Google Project Glasses). A discography is to laborious to be muddled over whenthe now is so immediate. It's like the way libraries are being treated today. People don't realize it but over the next ten years, a lot of books will be burned. Not political burnings mind you, just, 'what do we do with these books now that the library is gone (or gone digital)? Burn em!"

I think I've said this elsewhere, but we are in the process of a minor evoloution as a species (or major depending on your perspective) as we shift our dependance on mental facilities to accomadate our digital existence. History is a search way with top results providing the details. You can known anything you want to but only the now is relevant. Only the now.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

A discography is not something that needs to be researched and studied anymore; it's just as immediate and "right here" as the present. If anything, modern technology has evened the playing field between the presence and history more than ever. And since *new* technology-historically the thing that has pushed music forward in the past century-has become something that is in the hands of everyone (the computer is today more of a folk-instrument than the acoustic guitar or the piano ever was), it's importance on pushing music forward will decrease. People discovering old things they were previously not familiar with-easier now than ever before thanks to technology-and basing the NOW on that is most likely what the general trends in music will look like for a long time to come...

History is absorbed into the now without being fully taken in its own context., The ease with whcih one can access this information is directly proportional to how much one feels they have to invest in it to 'own' it. You do a search get the quick bits, download, etc.... under the impression that anyone could do the exact same. You just have to know enough so that the person that knows enough knows that you know enough to validate each othere's existence in the present and move on.

But don't mind me, I completely tangented this thread.
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

I know why those guys don't get mentioned, and it's that there's a spoken/unspoken component that to be the GOAT convo, is the crowd element

- have you made a club banger
- can people dance to your stuff
- do people even know your name

Not so much sales and chart positions, but there's some base line of popularity with people that listen to rap, as well as R&B and Reggae, that you have to meet in order to be considered.

And when you think about it, 15 years ago, Kool Moe Dee would still be in the conversation, same with Melle Mel. ICE CUBE would be in the conversation. They all had a catalog of hits and bangers, and people knew their albums back to front.

But the game has changed.
What people listen for and look for have changed.

Personally, I think Bun B raps circles around most of the ppl listed in the top 10. But he ain't really got the solo joints to put him on the same level as a Rakim, Jay Z, Nas.

Wise, Boots, Godfather Don, Lil Sci from Scienz of Life, Aceyalone..I could go down the list and come up with cats that can flip nouns and verbs, as well as cats that can write songs...that if you heard them, they might become your personal anthem.

But a cat like the Grouch, who i've always thought was a real dope mc, writes himself into a corner by making shit for hip hop heads.

Black Thought is better than most mc's that make it to GOAT conversations, and 10 albums deep he ain't even mentioned on his own damn site.

That's just me though.

I wish hip hop on this message board was broader, the whole world really.

Hip Hop, as an album format, as something that you listened to for months on end - I think that's pretty much dead.

Some of it is how things are promoted, some of it is the internet, filesharing, our new attitude to dispose of music, the old attitude that hip hop eats it's dead...

But yeah.

one
k. orr

even I forget about Grouch sometimes even though I used to be a big fan of his, just cuz literally no one talks about him on any website I look at and I just kinda forget he exists

Not really, it's the peaks and records that matters. I find stuff like consistency, diversity etc. really overrated in terms of evaluating an artist. Then again, I'm not really into the whole hero-worship/evaluation-thing too much either; it's a strictly intellectual discussion to me, one that is useful when talking about impact, influence etc. but one that has very little to do with (subjective) greatness/quality.

Generally speaking, "objective" discussions about quality/greatness are pointless IMO-"Artist A is better than artist B because he can do this and that and made album X" blah-blah...

n/m

last year. I mean on a lot of sites that did reader poll year-end lists, you couldn't even pick their album from lists that had to have at least 100 releases on them. they were considered write-in vote material...

then again, I suppose the album did only sell about 6,000 copies or so. sad shit.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

or at least didn't for the last album, based off comments made on QN5 forums. I could be wrong though.

as in fans who are dedicated to one artist and everything they make.

id say theres a lot of people here who can talk about jay-z or nas discographies, all their albums back to back, but theres not many rappers who can generate those convos - less people are likely to have every dmx album, or on the underground, have every coup album. and then if they do, its a smaller convo - and you can still have convos on here about guys like rakim, or krs, or masta ace, with people who have followed them through all their albums, its just a smaller convo with core fans.

but hip hop isnt really the kind of genre to inspire that kind of fandom i dont think, def not anymore, not unless its drake or maybe kanye were talking about. albums dont cut it that much these days, and hip hop has always been cut throat when it comes to fans dropping you after youve lost your edge.

"Who do you think SHOULD be in all-time great discussions based strictly off their body of work"

I love all of his albums

and I'm looking forward to Black on Blonde

I wish more people were into his stuff

a few songs here and there aren't my favorites but I never skip a track, i listen to each album all the way through. I do the same for P.O.S. who was appropriately mentioned in the subject.

i mean, i like me some gucci mane, but im not one of these guys who can remember and compare every single mixtape of his.

el-p has made, what, three albums? does it really matter? theyre all good regardless. ill take that over a madlib who releases a new album every month. while im on el-p btw, its funny how no one shits on him for a slow album release rate while mos def gets it routinely (granted, mos spends 5 years on an album that sounds like something that doesnt really warrant that time, but ecstatic was still a great album... or EP lol)

i've been saying that Cunninlynguists are 3 classics deep (APOS, DA, Oneirology) and 2 goofy but pretty great albums (WRFF,SU) as well as 3 great mixtapes (SS2, SJ1 and SJ2).

To me that's enough to put them in convos with some of the greatest.

They're 2-3 albums away from being one of the best.

But people will disagree strongly because they're too recent (2001-now) and too obscure to count.