Prince is a legend for what he dropped in the 80s. He had the midas touch that decade and dropped an enormous amount of material with few weak spots.

Since than he has continued to put out an enormous amount of material but the brilliant moments are few and far between with a lot of weak shit, some decent stuff but nothing on the calibre of his 80's tracks.
But why whenever he is brought up, there are those that will still say he ain't counted since 88.

Notice nobody says shit about Stevie, McCartney, Bowie, etc who also haven't done shit since their prime years. Just wonder why Prince gets the backlash he does on this site and others.

With McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Stevie and maybe not so much with Bowie, people perceive those artists as old so their new stuff is really isn't thought of as serious art.

With Prince, since Prince comes off kind of youthful, people are like: "Why isn't Prince's new stuff as impressive as his 80's stuff?". So Prince seeming youthful makes people who buy and listen to his music more demanding that it be up to par.

>Prince is a legend for what he dropped in the 80s. He had
>the midas touch that decade and dropped an enormous amount of
>material with few weak spots.
>
>Since than he has continued to put out an enormous amount of
>material but the brilliant moments are few and far between
>with a lot of weak shit, some decent stuff but nothing on the
>calibre of his 80's tracks.
>But why whenever he is brought up, there are those that will
>still say he ain't counted since 88.
>
>Notice nobody says shit about Stevie, McCartney, Bowie, etc
>who also haven't done shit since their prime years. Just
>wonder why Prince gets the backlash he does on this site and
>others.


Well, why dont you ask yourself that question since you did it in your very own post.



But I'll bite anyways..one part of it is because he was so left field above all else in his prime it seems like he doesnt even try in these times, so folks see him wasting talent..another reason for the biting criticism is because he sued fansites and such, coupled with his sometimes arrogant attitude in doing things that make it easier to criticize as he presents himself as a not so likeable guy "to some"

that line in High Fidelity was the only thing that marred that movie to me

>that line in High Fidelity was the only thing that marred
>that movie to me


I mean, those if us who go ( went ) to record stores already knew that record store clerks were assholes. But once Jack Black made it 'official', it was like everybody who was "into" music thought that you had to be an asshole about it.


That whole spiel about "I just called to say I love you" was kinda over the top. Sure, in the real world, we'd laugh at that guy too, but not to the point of clowning anybody who wanted to buy a Stevie Wonder record.


And the irony of ironies, is that the bullshit ass version of "Let's Get it On" that he performs at the end of the movie is some that REALLY should've been clowned. But of course not. Hipsters think everything sucks but the shit THEY like. Which pretty much makes them UN-hip.

would react that way.

but I always thought it was rooted in some PB&J...

but when people talk about Stevie criticism that is the first thing that came to mind. it was more or less a consensus I've read about his career in nearly every critical write-up ("after SITKOL, Stevie fell off").

Prince got a good deal of the same in the 1990s, despite the success of Diamonds and Pearls, especially in the "Symbol" era. though I think people were more about the changes in his on-stage persona (like the name change) more than anything else.

I don't think it's that much different, really. For every maxx in the crowd there about 10 others who continue to worship the ground he walks on.

The ones who say I love the old prince but I don't like his new stuff
I've done many a tricks on those kind
Like putting sexual suicide or movie star on a mix to get the same response.

But they're in a different phase right now. Prince also doesn't have the most likeable public persona.

>Prince also doesn't have the most likeable public persona.

I mean with ppl like McCartney, Jagger and Bowie, they all try to be likeable ppl (Even if it's not anywhere close to the type of person they actually are). Prince is just Prince, the whole going by a symbol rubbed a lot of ppl the wrong way (Despite knowing why he did it, it's still a highly pretentious thing to do). He hasn't really broken character or tried to cop pleas for anything he's done, if anything he probably resents his audience for not understanding his great vision.

The fact that P puts out so much material provides constant new music to compare to his peak years. His one album a year pace of releasing albums is an annual reminder that his new stuff isn't as strong as Purple Rain or Sign. Bowie, the Stones and Stevie disappeared for long stretches after their respective golden periods giving the critics (and there were many) a lot less to beat up on.

Also, his pace of releasing new music killed any quality control. I know that the "album consolidation/editing" exercise has been done before but imagine combining all of Prince's stuff from 1990 until now (almost 20 albums) into five to seven really strong records. That would give his current reputation a very different feel.

Instead, we've gotten the uneven output of the last two decades.

Which make up 1/4 of the audience who go see him live. And even still, they won't spare no expense at seeing him live with the other 3/4 who go to his concerts for 1) The musicianship, 2) the showmanship and 3) the nostalgia factor. All of that "I hate how his religion censored his music and made him a separatist" talk and all of his other absurd antics(e.g. treating his fans like back alley whores) get thrown out the window when it comes to folks spending their pockets on him, and they'll do, over & over. Actions speak volumes high, and I don't see any criticism from these actions.

Fact is, I *wish* he openly gets criticized more often lol everytime he feels like his Napoleonistic sensibilities get offended, he'll retaliate by putting out kick ass music instead of yapping in interviews(or like artists today, via NITWITter or FB). When folks see no wrong from his post-prime output and will continue to brownnose him, he'll see no reason to get challenged.

^^^quality posting......Amen....

I also think it's the fact that some still care about his music


While some might say
"Prince ain't counted since 88"
The fact is
he was releasing platinum albums in the 90s

So there's actually an *argument* to be had there

and even after he wasn't
he still released a lot of music that many consider good to great

So it's like
even if you say Prince hasn't counted since the 80s
Someone else can say
"Diamonds & Pearls" , "Gold", "Damn U", "Dolphin", etc are all great songs
and not many will say that's untrue

>While some might say
>"Prince ain't counted since 88"
>The fact is
>he was releasing platinum albums in the 90s
>
>So there's actually an *argument* to be had there
>

yep.


>and even after he wasn't
>he still released a lot of music that many consider good to
>great
>

Not Great, but I just said the same thing in another reply.


>So it's like
>even if you say Prince hasn't counted since the 80s
>Someone else can say
>"Diamonds & Pearls" , "Gold", "Damn U", "Dolphin", etc are all
>great songs
>and not many will say that's untrue

Yep. Said that too.

maxxx is obviously the most prominent. some of the others may be his alias(es)?

most of us don't expect his new stuff to be hot.

meaning, all of sudden ( as somebody pointed out "on this site"), there's a lot of revisionism, and people acting like P***** ain't made a good record since "1999", and that's a lot of bullshit.


I'm not a die-hard, but I'll go on record as saying just about every release has SOMETHING on it that I like, and if nothing else, it doesn't hurt my brain to listen to it, no matter how "bad" it is. Unlike MOST shit that drops these days.

I realized that you fuckers were nuts when I caught hell for liking "Diamonds and Pearls". Everybody acted like that was the worst album in music history, and the two or three people who agreed with me were accused of being Stans who were just blinded by The Midget.


I guess my point is this. You guys just don't accept new music from people who are, as you assholes like to phrase it, "old" or "irrelevant". ( how a person who changed the musical landscape can EVER be considered 'irrelevant' is beyond me, but whatever...I'm old, right?). Now don't get me wrong. P***** hasn't really made anything recently that I'll run out and get, but I'm not gonna sit on my ass and downplay the fact that the man is STILL making music.

Stop annointing every up and coming act as the GOAT, and appreciate what you guys have.

I appreciated reading that!!

>I'm not a die-hard, but I'll go on record as saying just about
>every release has SOMETHING on it that I like, and if nothing
>else, it doesn't hurt my brain to listen to it, no matter how
>"bad" it is. Unlike MOST shit that drops these days.

20ten is a great example. I joked about how one of those songs sounded like "Big Blue" from the F-Zero video game, but there were things I liked on it. It's pretty much been the case since his documented "fall off".

For every Jughead, there's a money don't matter tonight
Hell even c&d has a few great songs on it like Dinner w/Delores or into the light
NPS has wasted kisses
Rave has tangerine and I love u but I don't trust u
He still makes some damn good songs that gives me the goosebumps
And as long as I get one, I'm cool!

We rapped about 20ten and I really liked that album sans a few cuts
But damn even his great 80's run has tracks thats forever skipped like the cross or jack u off.

Now do I have issues as a fan? Hell yes!!
But it has more to do with how he's handling his recording legacy over what new product he releases.
Meaning I wish he treated his loyal fans the way that Bruce Springsteen does.

>But damn even his great 80's run has tracks thats forever
>skipped like the cross or jack u off.

"Jack U Off" is probably one of the funniest Prince songs ever.
I don't skip all the way through Controversy to hear it, but it's the most hilarious bookend to that album.

first with the "Sexuality" synth-percussion
then with the rockabilly music
then with the lyrics
then with the damn TITLE

I remember seeing that song title on the back of the Controversy album in a Camelot Music YEARS ago and falling out laughing with the same sort of pedantic glee when I spotted an album (in the same store) by a band calling themselves The Queers, entitled BEAT OFF

(later I found out that The Queers were basically a "shock" group who purposely made music with awful lyrics)


>Now do I have issues as a fan? Hell yes!!
>But it has more to do with how he's handling his recording
>legacy over what new product he releases.
>Meaning I wish he treated his loyal fans the way that Bruce
>Springsteen does.

yeah. that's basically the crux of my Prince "criticism" as well.
I mean his music @ this point is whatever. he keeps his name alive, people continue to pack the house to see him/wonder what the hell it's all about.

>But damn even his great 80's run has tracks thats forever
>skipped like the cross or jack u off.


The Cross. I ALWAYS skip that one.


>
>Now do I have issues as a fan? Hell yes!!
>But it has more to do with how he's handling his recording
>legacy over what new product he releases.
>Meaning I wish he treated his loyal fans the way that Bruce
>Springsteen does.
>


Yeah, I think he's so soured by the industry, that he's pretty much cutting off his nose to spite his face these days.

For many of the age of 30 to 45, Prince represents the last great artist with musical/influential ties to the musical giants that are revered Gods...

The James Brown/Sly Stone/George Clinton/Stevie Wonder contingent...He is connected to acts that represented an era where the talent was all there (think Chaka and the like)...The acts whose work have now become historical folklore....

So Prince is placed under the microscope much in the same way that say Paul Mac (Mr. Beatles) was during the '80s...It happens..

But here's the rub....Even during Stevie's, Paul's, ect's up and down period of albums no one ever said they didn't matter...No one ever said they were a joke...They just said that Stevie's In Square Circle work was not as creative as say Music of My Mind...Which is a "no shit" conclusion....

Yes, as others have said in this post, the fact that Prince has released music at a relentless pace and the fact that he has been an asshole has contributed to much of the two-fisted criticism...So I get that...

My issue is with the more excessive critique of Prince's later work has been the laziness of it all...

When I hear people say that Diamonds & Pearls was Prince's worst album I laugh...Shit ain't no much different than say MJ's Dangerous...Both artists' attempt to stay "current'...And both becoming successful commercially on their current musical takes...

To me, when it all comes down to it Prince's issue has been Prince...

He dominated his '80s era so brilliantly, so fearlessly, so cutting edge, and with so much controversy that he had nowhere else to go but down....

i especially SMH @ the OKP contingent who spout off about him having fallen off as of 1982. everything they say about Prince gets ignored.

i think the fall was just so quick and large in scope that its hard to understand. i mean compare sign of the times to diamonds and pearls. i dont care if you like that album or not there is no defense for the rapping on there. no one would voluntarily listen to a tony m. verse. and right there you see how he went from being an inspirational, transformation, highly influential artist to a follower of trends and started watering down his sound with what was hot at the time, but sounds dated as fuck now.
i mean prince WAS the 80s. but almost all his 80s shit does not sound dated at all whereas his 90s shit is just cringe inducing.

99% of Prince's late 70's to late 80's unreleased (studio & live) material is so loved by his fans but the fact that he never plans on releasing any of it officially is what they dislike about him and criticize him about so often but he keeps on releasing music with his newer sound which most people don't care for.

the artist hasn't released it for a reason.


Maybe it isn't up to HIS standards, or whatever. If an artist decides NOT to release something, we as fans need to respect that, and take it at face value. Regardless of what we want to hear.




( and after listening to some outtakes and unreleased material from some of my other favorite acts, I can TOTALLY see why some of it should stay in the vault...)

I kind of knew the answer as well but thought it would be a good post and do get tired of some of the bashing that goes on, mostly don't even believe some that do and some of it seems to read as jealousy because some of their favorite artists don't get as much attention.

I can't help but think that Prince has a lot of good relevant music in him but he is soo unyielding to the fact that music has changed alot since his prime that he is unwilling to incorporate new things into his sound.

I mean, why hasn't Prince ever been used effectively in a Hip-Hop or Hip-Hop-centric track***? Even Stevie has that dope Busta track. It's because dude really isn't that interested in hip-hop and certainly wouldn't be willing to put himself in the hands of another producer to try and create a cool hip-hop track.

In general I think Prince has an unwillingness to not be in total control of everything which means he wouldn't work with folks who could update his sound and come up with modern relevant music. Just imagine what could possibly happen if Prince opened himself to work with Saadiq, Neptunes or even our own 15. Something interesting could come out of it.


***I think the best thing Prince track that is hip-hop oriented is The Greatest Romance (Remix) but I feel like the Neptunes probably did that after the fact and didn't have much involvement by Prince.



**********
Peace to the Gods.

Actually it's not bait, it's true. Just that his classic, good, and great music is classic, good, and great as hell, so we can easily ignore his bullshit.

But yeah, since the 90's hit, he's been putting out a million albums, and most just has skippable filler. I'll put it this way...if all the music he made since the Symbol era was from a completely new artist, nobody would have cared about much of it. He has made a few great album cuts and some dope singles like Black Sweat and Musicology, but as a whole, a lot of that shit was completely disposable to his old AND young fans, period.

Why else is it that when you went to his concert series in Inglewood, 90% of the tracks were from the 80's??? Thing is, people didn't lose interest in him because of all the shit he put out...they still enjoyed his 80's shit as if it was new, so it never affected his legacy much.

>Why else is it that when you went to his concert series in
>Inglewood, 90% of the tracks were from the 80's??? Thing is,
>people didn't lose interest in him because of all the shit he
>put out...they still enjoyed his 80's shit as if it was new,
>so it never affected his legacy much.


I mean, for a long time there's been jokes about how when the Rolling Stones do their new material, it's the cue for the bathroom break.

I'm sure on Stevie Wonder's last tour, he wasn't doing much of A Time to Love, either.

those artists.

I would say it is true, but as I said, he put out a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of material after the 80's, and by number, he's put out way more average albums than great ones...so somebody who knows nothing of Prince would look at his discography and be lost if they had no idea what his important albums were.

Compare it with Mike...well nah, he's Mike, I won't do that. But most artists from this era weren't putting shit out nearly as much as Prince in the 80's, yet many of them STILL came out with the occasional hit since then, if that makes sense. Prince does have Diamonds and pearls, The most beautiful girl, the two singles I mentioned above, and..........after that? Maybe 1-2 other songs, but really nothing else that casual fans know or remember.

So yea, what you say is correct, these artists are always gonna be remembered for their old classic material, but I still feel like they had more important and remembered albums than forgotten about ones. I think Prince just oversaturated the game with his.

and I worshipped Prince from Purple Rain to the Symbol.


**********
Peace to the Gods.

I only knew Musicology n Black sweat because they showed them on BET.

And that's another thing, he hasn't even had anything to get much play on radio or TV, and it's not even on some "ohhhh it's too funky for radio!" Nah, it just wasn't knockin.

BUT he did have a single in 1994 that had rap on it and I can not remember the name of it for shiiiiiiiiiiiiit....it was probably like 88-90 BPM or so, I really haven't heard it since then.

.

all of the Prince albums i've heard since O(+> have had at least 1 track that i'd place among his best work. all of the rough albums have at least 1 gem.

Come - 'Space'
TGE - 'Shy' & 'Shhh'
C&D - 'Dig U Better Dead'
Emancipation - 'In This Bed I Scream' et. al.
New Power Soul - 'Wasted Kisses'
Rave - 'Man o' War'
Rainbow Children - 'Everywhere' & 'Family Name'
Musicology - 'Call My Name'
3121 - 'Black Sweat'
Planet Earth - 'Future Baby Mama'
Lotusflower/Mplsound - 'Dance 4 Me'

...i never heard 20Ten or any of the others i didn't list here.

that's too many tracks to sift through to get the goodies though. so i understand why a fan wouldn't have heard these songs.

Also, Prince is good for songs that don't grab you right away, along with some that hit you the first second you hear it. Some of them are so unorthodox, you gotta listen a few times to absorb it all.

**********
Peace to the Gods.

That you and others can't name a song past Most beautiful girl or Musicology says more about you and the music industry then anything about the quality of Prince's music.

What people tend to forget is that Prince is an Artist. He is just not some entertainer trying to score hits and make a buck. Music is his life's work the same way painting was Picasso's life's work. Prince is more interested in the creation of his art then satisfying some general listener's desire for a "banger".

The general public only is interested in what the "machine" feeds them. I wouldn't even consider Most beautiful girl or Musicology or Black sweat as the best music he produced in that period. They were merely the songs feed to the public by the "machine".

The other thing to keep in mind is that Prince can't be cateogized musically. And if you go to his music expecting a certain sound you are bound to be disappointed.

Prince musically is like the difference between people who are into movies like Citizen Kane versus folks who are satisfied with a Tyler Perry flick. They are both films but that is where the similarity of content and ambition ends.

Prince's musical ambitions operate outside of the scope of the normal musician and generally outside of the average listeners music pallete. Basically folks are complaining about Prince being to creative and to obtuse. When in actuality those very things are what seperates him from the Snoop dogs and Beyonces of the world.

the "Artist" that is Prince.

I never listen to the radio. I have eclectic taste in music and I can appreciate the artistry of a lot of different types of musicians.

I have tried to listen to Prince's latter works and just found that they suck. Alot of people with good taste in music would also agree.

It's okay we can have different taste and appreciation of his work without either of us being criticized for our taste in music.

But this response kind of shows the problem with Prince and his die hard fans. I don't think Prince knows his music isn't as hittin as it once was and it's easier to blame the fans and the music industry then it is to grow as a musician.



**********
Peace to the Gods.

I responded directly to the statement you made. Its no crime to be ignorant of any particular musicians work, but you implied that that ignorance proved some point about Prince's musical output.

When in actuality it only proved your own ignorance about the music he has created. I could care less whether you like the music or not but speaking out on something you really don't know is an "L" on your part.

meaning, it's impossible to follow-up a classic. You can never do it.

Which is why everybody constantly critiques every Nas album with a microscope, or why every Mike Jax album got compared to "Thriller".


>
>I would say it is true, but as I said, he put out a
>LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT of material after the 80's, and by
>number, he's put out way more average albums than great
>ones...so somebody who knows nothing of Prince would look at
>his discography and be lost if they had no idea what his
>important albums were.


Well, let's do it like this. A few years back, imcvspl had a post titled "If The Aliens came down...." or something like that. The premise of the post was to name works by artists that could put aliens ( a metaphor for a listener who had never heard of said artist) on to that person.

So if the aliens came down and asked about P*****, can't we just hand them a stack of his albums and let THEM decide what they like, without putting disclaimers on it?

I'd be willing to bet that most people who haven't been corrupted by popular opinion would find something enjoyable on all of his material.




>So yea, what you say is correct, these artists are always
>gonna be remembered for their old classic material, but I
>still feel like they had more important and remembered albums
>than forgotten about ones. I think Prince just oversaturated
>the game with his.


Fuck that. I think that anybody who is still capable of writing/playing/arranging/performing music deserves to put out whatever he wants. Regardless of what *we* think. As long as somebody out there is listening, go for it...

bangers...even if it wasn't A+ material, they had some A-, and then a lot of B and B+ material out. Can't quite say the same for Prince, and there's absolutely no reason for me to have a bias against him since he's one of my fav's without question. And the issue is, I'll even admit that I'm young so I wouldn't be able to get into some of his Post 80's music...hell, it's some of his 80's music I couldn't quite get into. But when most people see it the same way as me, including folks who were there when he was primin, it should make sense.

I'll even say that Prince was somewhat of a victim of that MAJOR transition that happened from NJS that we talked about in my other post...so his sound was hard to evolve into what was modern, and what worked for him before wasn't gonna catch new ears or even maintain old ears.

At the same time? I feel Prince has it more like Snoop does, vs. how Jay-Z and MJ had it...with Snoop, we've said that he can put out a million records and it won't hurt his legacy, even if it doesn't attract new fans or even sell to his main fans. So nobody expects him to make anything classic, however, if he did make some new bangers, people will love them. So he has that privilege, which isn't too common. Nas, Jay, MJ, etc etc...people are critical against them, and if they make something that's not great, it's like "ohh they lost it."

Prince is a cult artist who hit it big w/1 album and movie. he held on to some of the mainstream fans he picked up from that hit for a few yrs, but then his fanbase shrunk back to that cult level. and that's where it's remained since the early 90s (after the little blip on the mainstream radar that was D&P).

it's not a diss to him at all that his music hasn't attracted a mass following. it's not the type that would. i think he's aware (this issue even popped up in Purple Rain the movie). every now and then he's shot for mainstream success w/stuff like 'Beautiful Girl' and the Rave album and the Musicology album. then again w/'Black Sweat'. but most of his output is that stuff that only his cult following would dig.

Stevie has released his share of stinkers or at least 'blah' records.

MJ too. my God. i mean, the man was signed to Motown in the 70s. come on. LOL. and does anyone really think Blood on the Dancefloor is packed w/classics? Invincible?

>Stevie has released his share of stinkers or at least 'blah'
>records.
>


You guys don't like "Don't Drive Drunk"?!?!?! Heathens!!!!!!

>MJ too. my God. i mean, the man was signed to Motown in the
>70s. come on. LOL. and does anyone really think Blood on
>the Dancefloor is packed w/classics? Invincible?


Ya boy found "Invicible" right there next to MC Brains. In that box o' shit on the floor at Second Hand Choons.






>
>

LOL

and that Invincible album hurt my feelings.

and I believe the name change, slave cheek, attitude then didn't help with industry at all, might have been a little black balled for radio play.

but emancipation could have had hits imo. but he chose to release the bland cover la la la that nobody was feeling and holy river while isnt bad wasn't screaming to be played in a club lol don't get me started on Te Amo Corazon and other bullshit he's used for singles

last song I remember playing on top 40 radio was Gold in 94-95. I did really like Emancipation album quite a bit and thought he was gonna come back full force and was just biding his label woes but yeah, never happened

So if you guys were going to make a best-of for Prince's 90's and 2000's, what would you put on it? There don't seem to be any good compilations covering that period and I don't really feel like wading through the twenty-ish albums he's put out to find the good stuff.

Woops, missed SoWhat's post.

and entering this thread resulted in being assaulted with annoying Javascript

the Rainbow children album was a fine example that Prince still has it and even alan leeds said that the rainbow children was a complete masterpiece.