This guy should have been one of the GREATS. He had it all: chicks thought he was sexy, great performer, soulful singer who also made really good music.

And there are very few artists who had as successful a debut as he did whether commercially or musically. (**14million copies sold!!!**)

I don't understand what it was that went wrong for him. Some said it was his hubris that came back to bite him...others said it was coming out of the gate so fast that there was no way he could continue that type of success...and some have said it was problems w/his label.

Nevertheless, this guy should be talked abt in the same breath as someone like Prince or at least a Lenny Kravitz.

all blk ppl immd changed the channel on his ass

& as we go, so goes american pop culture

& as american pop culture goes so goes global pop culture


do or die

Interview in 1987 - that threw everything off.

didn't know he said anything about Michael.

Bottom line? He's a creative genius
he's constantly put out great albums
he stays grinding
he went indie long before it was cool to do so
I'm glad he said fuck the machine
his second album was a masterpiece
his third album was fantastic
a few albums later he's still making fantastic records
his first album was commercially acessible but I prefer every album after.

He's unsung in the US but really who cares about the US?

effect that he was the Beatles to Michael Jackson's Elvis and that Prince was the little Richard for his generation...

>Interview in 1987 - that threw everything off.
>
>didn't know he said anything about Michael.
>
>Bottom line? He's a creative genius
>he's constantly put out great albums
>he stays grinding
>he went indie long before it was cool to do so
>I'm glad he said fuck the machine
>his second album was a masterpiece
>his third album was fantastic
>a few albums later he's still making fantastic records
>his first album was commercially acessible but I prefer every
>album after.
>
>He's unsung in the US but really who cares about the US?

so no he specifically said this - it was tongue and cheek - but folks took it the wrong way.

saying that as a matter of fact...but ppl took it the wrong way because he was known to be an overly confident dude.


>so no he specifically said this - it was tongue and cheek -
>but folks took it the wrong way.

and that didn't sit well during the Reagan era.. haha.. .

I mean he was odd too... Hiphop was on the rise..
& we had our hero (Prince)

(I love how Prince makes fun of him during the new years even performance of Sign O The Times ... "If you let me stayyyyy" (all off key)... even calls him out for biting his dance style...)

Prince - aka the baddest, meanest motherfucker to ever ... walk...

then along comes this cat who sings like Sam Cooke and has a great album... had a great live show...

but many were comparing him to Prince. America is insulated...

ironically TTD is from Florida... he is American... so the accent, the braids, everything was odd to folks.

He would abandon them for growing dreads by the second album..

but I think the issue was here we have a guy who plays everything, can dance, can sing, and has written music that has changed the very way everyone approaches music. What can you do? haha.. kinda odd timing if ever.

successful album and that was in the late 80s

he's hardly considered one of the greats...

Dave Matthews or Phish is either and they sell millions of records every year... more than the last Kanye or Jay album...

yet somehow they don't count?

that just shows you how segregated listeners are in the states and how slow most folks are to venture out of their comfort zone.


Listen... those who do know about TTD know he's one of the greats.. .not even a question. I would imagine those with a limited music vocabulary don't know who Charles Mingus is as well - does that somehow rob him of his genius? No. That means up yo game.

Not you per se but you get my point.

notwithstanding...

when we talk abt great solo artists just from his era alone, we're talking abt MJ, Prince, Lionel, Luther, El Debarge and a few others. Terence Trent D'Arby just isn't on that level of greatness.

He the makings to be great artists but his discography just doesn't warrant him being considered a great all time artist.

He was an excellent songwriter and performer though.


>Dave Matthews or Phish is either and they sell millions of
>records every year... more than the last Kanye or Jay album...
>
>
>yet somehow they don't count?
>
>Listen... those who do know about TTD know he's one of the
>greats.. .not even a question. I would imagine those with a
>limited music vocabulary don't know who Charles Mingus is as
>well - does that somehow rob him of his genius? No. That
>means up yo game.
>
>Not you per se but you get my point.

and who's defining who's great in music?

Soundscan?

or the ears of the listeners? haha..

He's definitely one of the greats - I mean just cause you may be waiting on that Warner Brothers promotional commercial doesn't mean I am feel me?

Not saying you - just speaking generally.

and if you're a great artist in the states then you're a great artist worldwide...

in addition, his euro releases weren't really heard by the masses of ppl over there either due to them being released on an independent label...and some of those cds were well received but most of them weren't by fans and critics alike.

and whether you or me or anyone likes it or not, when you talk abt great music/artists, a certain level of commercial success does have to factor in. You can't have limited appeal and be regarded as great.


>and who's defining who's great in music?
>
>Soundscan?
>
>or the ears of the listeners? haha..
>
>He's definitely one of the greats - I mean just cause you may
>be waiting on that Warner Brothers promotional commercial
>doesn't mean I am feel me?
>
>Not saying you - just speaking generally.

that may be you living in a bubble. haha.. I mean it's awfully American to think America is the place folks wanna play.

I could name a ton of Ethiopian jazz musicians who never want to set foot in America.

haha...

most musicians want to play Europe (the love) and japan (the pay).

In both places folks are treated much better.

For details read Miles Davis' autobiography as told to Quincy Troupe.

being successful in the US helps you in that regard than having a hit record than anywhere else. (ask Craig David or Estelle or Adele)


>that may be you living in a bubble. haha.. I mean it's
>awfully American to think America is the place folks wanna
>play.

that's not just something ppl in the US think, that's what I've heard artists from other countries say out of their own mouth. I've seen and heard african rappers, as well as Latin american artists say they want to do collabos w/US rappers, for instance, because they know (or believe) it'll help them gain worldwide exposure.
>
>I could name a ton of Ethiopian jazz musicians who never want
>to set foot in America.

ok
>
>haha...
>
>most musicians want to play Europe (the love) and japan (the
>pay).

but they want success in the US because it'll launch your career more than having success anywhere else.
>
>In both places folks are treated much better.
>
>For details read Miles Davis' autobiography as told to Quincy
>Troupe.

man, you talking over half a century ago lmao when mainly blk artists still had to deal w/segregation and other types of humiliation.

fela had no desire to return to the US after being burned in LA.

TTD has cancelled a few tours in the US cause he didn't like it.

The US does not have a good reputation for pay or treatment.

Again - NO. Speak to jazz musicians... they know Europe and Japan... bread and butter.

No sir, there is no one general rule that states if you want to blow up playing America is where it's at. That sounds like a line from one of those made for TV Beatles Biopics. hahaha.

The man has lived quite well and just fine without any radio support, major label support etc.

He serves as one of the finer examples of independent artists.

successful or having a hit song or cd is more beneficial to an artist than it would be for an artist anywhere else.

>fela had no desire to return to the US after being burned in
>LA.

but your very statement demonstrates it had nothing to do w/him not wanting the US success but for something else other than him not having the desire to be recognized in the US. And besides, Fela is an aberration and not the norm...
>
>TTD has cancelled a few tours in the US cause he didn't like
>it.
>
>The US does not have a good reputation for pay or treatment.

But the notoriety you get is unparalleled anywhere else for an artist.
>
>Again - NO. Speak to jazz musicians... they know Europe and
>Japan... bread and butter.

Jazz artists are not a good example to use for this discussion simply because ppl in the US aren't as receptive to Jazz as they once were which is why most jazz artists like to perform in countries like Europe and Japan which are big jazz lovers...
>
>No sir, there is no one general rule that states if you want
>to blow up playing America is where it's at. That sounds like
>a line from one of those made for TV Beatles Biopics. hahaha.

that is a *general* common sense rule. what other country will get you worldwide notoriety off a hit record moreso than the US?? This is precisely why American artists in *general* are known the world over more than artists from any other country.
>
>The man has lived quite well and just fine without any radio
>support, major label support etc.

that's good for him but don't think for a minute that that wasn't what he was after and he pretty much stated that in his interviews early on...his music started to become more esoteric and he had a hard time finding a large audience for his music after the 1st cd which resulted in label problems which is why he ended up going the independent route.
>
>He serves as one of the finer examples of independent
>artists.

sales don't even matter to you... a real artist.. is concerned about art. This whole record sales thing is a fucking plague.

Could you imagine Picasso worried about sales?

Sigh.

Let me just say I have never listened to one JayZ album cover to cover and i never plan to.

hahaha...

>sales don't even matter to you... a real artist.. is
>concerned about art. This whole record sales thing is a
>fucking plague.

bull f'ing ish!!!! MJ wanted commercial success, Marvin Did...and so did Donny Hathaway. Most artists do whether they admit or not because if they didn't they wouldn't sign to a recording label, they could just make music in their basement.
>
>Could you imagine Picasso worried about sales?

yeah I guess that's why artists like him and Van Gogh (&even Basquiat), who wanted desperately to sell his artwork to the masses that it almost drove him crazy, *sold* their artwork. smh TERRIBLE EXAMPLE...

and fans consider success - sales.

Other artists and fans judge it purely by the art.

Then there are those who judge it by both.

We can find examples to support all of these.

I feel real artists aren't concerned with that... I don't think Marvin was too much either with What's going on... could be wrong.

Now if great is being defined by art, my Picasso statement stands.

If it's being defined by record sales - then hey...

now personally I would take his debut album over any either of those acts ever put out but let's not pretend your analogy wasn't terrible.

they never tour overseas... in fact out of all the years Dave Matthews has been around - selling out stadiums and state parks - he never toured once overseas. Last year I think marked his first time.

Phish from what I understand never does.

TTD's base is in Europe - not America... he stays in Europe to support that base - so again... when you guys are saying he doesn't connect, he doesn't sell, he isn't relevant - you must consider that you are speaking from an American platform and most of what he's doing you will miss. It's like most people in Europe have no idea who Dave Matthews is.

Perfect analogy actually.

.

Also the size of his base isn't the issue - so let's not move the goal posts. We were speaking on the analogy and why it works. I mean America is a considerably bigger market - but that doesn't mean he isn't doing well by European standards for an indie artist. Especially such a challenging one.

on everyone else...

like I said, dude has a loose standard for greatness...

but if you are baseing it off music - then base it off music.

If you are off sales - okay then I hear you. Even that however is debateable cause of his sales overseas.

I have seen him live, he's a monster. Absolutely amazing singer.

I own several of his albums as well as others in this post - we all like it and consider him great.

Don't know what else to say.

You are right tho no need for arguments. :)

by any tangible measure you want to use outside of your own opinion.

Terence Trent D'Arby's career I have no doubt in my mind most would say he made some good music but wasn't a great artist by any stretch.

the title of "great" is reserved for a select group of artists to which Terence isn't among them...


>by any tangible measure you want to use outside of your own
>opinion.

There are some of us who think he's great and others who don't.

Generally the one's who don't are basing off of other items such as sales and hits.

I personally think he's great - I fail to see the problem. :)

.

not that serious. It's TTD and no one called you out by name my man. hahaha.. easy.

Also, reply 2 still stands.. yeah I said who's questioning that as in who's the musical authority to make such a determination.

OKP? Billboard? Rollingstone? MTV? Who?

Thought I would clear that up for you if it didn't click.

This entire conversation is subjective and opinion - just musical tastes my dude. :)

.

rock fans or r&b fans. If he kept making hits like his first LP/CD he would have kept up with Lenny, but TTD was trying to be artistic.

Only few can be artistic and stay popular.

The press and MTV might have turned against him if I remember correctly.

Pharoh Sanders and Charles Mingus have hits?

Folks have been trained by the machine to think like the machine.

SMH.

Not saying you - but I see why you wrote what you wrote... the mass public...

yay for TTD! making that esoteric non mainstream non hit music! good for him & you, i hope yall enjoy yourselves in artist-ville population 2

meanwhile the rest of the planet likes accesibility


do or die

also just cause you are not up on his work only says something about you...

the man has constantly stayed working, gigging - I'm happy for him.

sorry, folks.

it's not.

why didn't he make it bigger? he didn't make music that connected w/enough ppl. the dude definitely had his shot on the biggest stage. he didn't have what it took. he didn't have the songs.

they had a rule... first album they promoted - once you charted they actually treated your second project on the strength of your first.

So they did very little to promote it. In america... genius seems to only be defined when it's artistic and successful.

Well America is built on bloodshed and capitalism. Capitalism, and corporations basically creating our music habits is what did this.

So this notion that you have to have record sales to make a masterpiec is absurd.

No?

Ask Picasso.

that 2nd album didn't have hits on it.

neither did the 3rd, really.

and definitely not the 4th.

so, CBS conspiracies aside...he didn't/doesn't make hit music.

Did he?

Cannonball Aderly?
James Moody?
Arthur Verocai?
Multato Astatke?

I mean is this American Idol or a music discussion? hahaha... hits..?

Really?

the question i answered was - why wasn't TTD more successful?

he wasn't successful b/c he didn't make music that could connect w/the masses. it wasn't about any conspiracy against him brought on by his ego or whatever.

first off why are you calling me guy? hahaha..

second.. I explained the promotions problem at CBS...

the second album was considered a masterpiece by his fans - so he definitely connected.

without question he connected.

the mere fact he's still travelling, touring, putting out albums thru his own label - is a sign he's ALWAYS connected.

hahaha.. stop selling me these major label marketing scams like the music somehow morphs if it doesn't sell a million units.

Again, as a fan of the man - I can assure you he's still on his game as always.

if you don't like his music - that's fair - that's your choice - but at least respect the fact others do.

He's not El Debarge son.

He stays grinding.

and great for him. i'm glad he does and i'm glad some ppl like his stuff.

he's not a bigger act b/c he doesn't make music more ppl would like. i'm saying - even if there was no problem between him and CBS, even if CBS had promoted his stuff on a MJ level, it wasn't gonna hit. he doesn't make hit music. he doesn't make music that the _masses_ will like.

stop acting like it does. There are billions of people beyond US borders and guess what - they and their opinion count.

again, i'm glad TTD has fans and he makes music they like. that's a win for all involved.

but he ain't more successful b/c he doesn't make hit music. which is perfectly fine. an act doesn't need to make hits to be good or even great.

TTD's greatness is a separate question. and i've said below i don't think he's 1 of the greats.

if we're talking tiers again, i'd say he's near the top of the 3rd tier. or the bottom of the 2nd tier.

Must make dollars
to must make sense. beep beep.

hahaha..

no sir..

try just enjoying the music, the art.

Stop acting like a sales rep. haha.

by that definition any act w/even 1 fan is a success. right on.

some folks choose it by sales
some choose it purely by the art itself
some choose the combination of the two...

all Im saying.

than his music not being that good because I thought he was a very good songwriter and that 1st cd of his was insanely good w/several hit songs on it.


>sorry, folks.
>
>it's not.
>
>why didn't he make it bigger? he didn't make music that
>connected w/enough ppl. the dude definitely had his shot on
>the biggest stage. he didn't have what it took. he didn't
>have the songs.
>
>

sigh...

have you two even heard the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth album?

they aren't great albums. the 3rd one is good. the rest are just okay. if that.

Been drinking that Maxx Soda...
hits? hahaha... most of my favorite artists never had a hit...

wow. Hits.

so this isn't a music discussion

it's a marketing and sales discussion. Oh ok.

but now i'll join yours:

TTD ain't 1 of the greats b/c he doesn't make great music.

regardless of the hit stuff, his music ain't on the level of that made by the greats. it's not good enough. period.

slow ass Americans don't follow cause they are like trained monkeys when it comes to liking music.

Americans are by far the slowest mass group of people when it comes to anything outside of their culture. this is no different.

If it's not on MTV or BET it doesn't exist. Sad excuse for music listners - they base their listening on sales? That's horrible.

What next - Kmart... the album?

He's been living in Europe since defecting from the army and never planned to come back - why should he - he's adored in Europe and japan. America is promoting Lil B. hahaha...

i'm glad you and his other fans dig his work though. i like a few of his songs too. and i was into that Symphony or Damn album when it came out. it hasn't aged well, IMO.

he's got some talent, obviously. but he ain't 1 of the greats.

bottom line - Americans are robots.

Period.

anyway, TTD ain't 1 of the greats. he don't make great music.

No offense.. but my opinion is he is great.

Your argument about sales.. then songwriting is pretty lame.

he ain't 1 of the greats.

having any hit records???

for better or worse, hit records are a barometer for measuring an artist's greatness, bottom line...and that applies to all genres.

GZA can hang with or outrap many of the great MCs that are usually mentioned in the top 10 but his lack of commercial success is why he's not considered one of the GOATs.

Its why Shuggie Otis who made some really good music is viewed more as someone who had unfulfilled expectations and not as a great artist. The same can be said abt Terence Trent D'Arby.

I think you have a very loose definition of greatness...


>sigh...
>
>have you two even heard the second, third, fourth, fifth,
>sixth album?
>
>

TTD ain't 1 of those acts though.

different than having a or several hit records...

you can be a rapper/rap group, for instance, like NWA or PE back in the day who didn't have hit records because the majority of their material couldn't be played on mainstream radio but they still moved a lot of units...this applies to Prince early on. He did have a few hit records but most of his early material couldn't be played on the radio.

but

both NWA and PE sold boatloads of records nonetheless w/o having hit records

as long as you're commercially viable then yes you can still be considered a great artist but you have to have one or the other to be great...either you sell enough units or you've had hit records.

but

I don't know of any artist who ppl think is great that didn't sell many records or had hit records.

Nick Drake
Joni Mitchell
Funkadlic
Jeff Beck
Jaco Pasotrius


Same with most jazz musicians. Deads this argument.


If that's what your basing your ratings on - then to me you are not listening or feeling music.

it could sell one record - but if it moves you deeply then it's a success.

Save that VP of marketing bullshit for selling clothes or something.

myself from Nick Drake, don't really listen to him enough to comment).

But he ain't on Joni Mitchell's level in terms of songs or albums. Actually he's not even remotely on the same level.

The Maggot Brain album alone outshines his entire career so 'hell no' on Funkadelic as well.

And the other two in Jaco & Beck are noted legends on the instrument they each played professionally with a long legacy of influence.

TTD ain't that either.

this entire conversation is subjective...

so I take it all with a grain of salt..

but I'm sure while you say no, there is someone who will say yes.

*shrugs*

have you seen him live? As in, in person?

Cause if not isn't that apart of this package?

artists to prove your point that artists don't need record sales or hit records in order to be considered great? ok gotcha

how about there's 100x more artists that says that's bullshit. Any list of the greatest artists of 20th century are artists who had many hit records as well as lots of units sold.



>Nick Drake
>Joni Mitchell
>Funkadlic
>Jeff Beck
>Jaco Pasotrius

>Same with most jazz musicians. Deads this argument.

cmon you're making this too easy. 1st of all, during the era of when jazz was its most popular, ppl simply didn't buy records in large volume as they do now or would begin doing until the 80s...which is why the music industry was all but dead until 'Thriller' came along and rejuvenated the industry. This is why record labels were so quick to abandon jazz music, which was America's pop music at that time, in favor of "British Invasion.' And the fact that jazz musicians of today lack commercial viability is the main reason the music is no longer widely listened to in the US.
>
>
>If that's what your basing your ratings on - then to me you
>are not listening or feeling music.

no that's not all lol. Let me explain it to you again: hit records/album sales is a barometer for measuring an artist's greatness. If it weren't then everyone would simply base a particular artist's greatness on their own subjective opinion.
>
>it could sell one record - but if it moves you deeply then
>it's a success.

success maybe but that doesn't mean they're great, plain and simple.
>
>Save that VP of marketing bullshit for selling clothes or
>something.

smh

According to my personal taste, I like
1. Wildcard
2. Symphony or Damn
3. Vibrator
4. Introducing the Hardline
5. Neither Fish Nor Flesh

1: Neither Fish Nor Flesh
2: Wildcard
3: Angels&Vampires
4: Symphony or Damned
5: Vibrator

fary interstunk

.

His voice was the shit. Very soulful. I miss that. Anthony Hamilton has it, but that grittiness is missing in soul music these days.

hell even Vibrator.

The man is dope

just cause three okayplayers don't know about that dude - they just up and write him off?

I swear OKP is truly it's own world.

where you're gonna find a 50+ reply thread on the career of Terrance Trent D'arby on today, March 22nd, 2012.

And if you think that El Debarge is a "great" and TTD ain't, I have nothing to say to you, because you are truely fucked in the head.

*waits for Maxxx to say some bullshit*

What the blood claaat ???

and he's been bringing it for many years.

and yeah of course I'd take El Debarge over TTD.

TTD couldn't carry El Debarge's Soul Glo Bottle. and i do like TTD however he didn't get it right all the way.

well I mean you also said Babyface is a better live performer than the Boss... and other items.

If you evere saw him live you'd eat those words.

But I've never been as geeked over his later works as some. To me he was never really a great songwriter.... And I felt like that along with his choice to be a self contained do it by hiself artist always held him from reaching his potential. I just think dude was limited in most ways besides his vocals, which would have been fine if he hadn't tried to be like prince and do it all himself. He wasn't a musician, producer or songwriter like that to me. I've always thought he should have worked with other producers. There have been various music movements in europe that he could have been a part of. He should fukk with jazzanova or joey negro or reel people.... His voice would fit perfect in that format.

I'm not a big fan of the writing or production on Neither Fish
but the three after that (apparently he has a 6th album I'm unaware of) show great songwriting and especially production.
But here is what I've noticed:
Even as a fan I can never figure out how to work him into my DJ sets. At best I've gotten a track or two from Wildcard into a set, but nothing besides Introducing other than that.
He might actually be too unique.

Wanting to be an artist that did it his way. But I just think he could have kept his uniqueness and still been open to working with other producers.

I mean music isn't all about dj sets, hits, etc... I appreciate his uniqueness. One of the reasons I like him, you really never know what you are going to get.

ah the good old days when i could just RWQ,
and the even gooder days when I just posted links to 500 songs.

Problem for TTD was

he couldn't evole and his influences wore his sleeve down.

the cat is a Great Singer

Very Good Songwriter

and a good Live Performer.

however he came out at a time when the stakes was high and pulling that Tina Turner I'm Bloody British backfired on him and also he just didn't have no hits to follow up with.

the cat had what I call good songs to drive by the Ocean to, however when his first album dropped this cat had songs to Live by the Ocean in full view big difference.

had all his money cuts off one jump off and the Problem is when R&B Music went to New jack Swing and more harder edge suddenly this cat

didn't have anything to sustain and come back to.

cats like Maxwell, Lenny Kravitz and D'angelo owe this cat a huge debt musically especially on the debut hype.

sad to say his solo career in certain circles ain't even remembered nearly as much as Al B Sure's and that is a travesty IMO


i use to dig some ttd.

On the dock of that bay serving a life sentence,even if I’m going to hell I’m gonna make an entrance

daps..
I hear you, there were moments for me during his first tour that i felt that way.

He's had some really great stuff, but also a good amount that was just plain bad, and some of that bad was the worst kind: big, overblown, concept-heavy stuff that comes off as off-Broadway cheese rather than effective music. (This coming from a person who really loves the big and the overblown when it's done right and doesn't collapse under its own weight and pretension...)

Symphony or Damn is the classic example - it's a 50/50 album in terms of its quality, *maybe* 60/40.

Vibrator was probably 40/60. Wild Card had some really great cuts but a good amount of filler, too.

I think dude is really talented but - like many folks who talk themselves up as a one-man-band - he needs an editor...

I never did check out that last album though (Angels..), I should do that soon...


-thebigfunk

~ i could still snort you under the table ~

Kid was feelin himself way too much at that point. His third album was great but he took too long to release it, people forgot about dude or moved on. If Symphony or Damn was his second album he might be relevant today. Shame really.

his third - although I like it alot - had a few missteps for my take.

I think what happened is when he started to move away from major labels - he really started wearing his British influences which somewhat threw his American listeners. I mean one song sounded like he was listening to SLADE of all groups. haha..

I bought that album for two bucks. When I listened to it I heard why. But if his fans think of it as a masterpiece so be it. I felt let down, to each is own. Around the World in A Day was a fuck you album but he still had jams on it. You can tell TTD's third album he was trying to make up for that commercial failure. I would love to hear an interview on what he thinks about his career overall. I dig TTD fyi.

>I bought that album for two bucks. When I listened to it I
>heard why. But if his fans think of it as a masterpiece so be
>it. I felt let down, to each is own. Around the World in A Day
>was a fuck you album but he still had jams on it. You can tell
> TTD's third album he was trying to make up for that
>commercial failure. I would love to hear an interview on what
>he thinks about his career overall. I dig TTD fyi.

around here - get these boards jumping.

great conversation

vee-lover - daps for the topic, great choice.

great that everyone chimed in.

have a great weekend OKP.