>a lot of hip hop artists
>take the samples and create something new.
>
>brand new.
>
>this isn't a perfect example, but it's
>the easiest one to explain...
>
>
>
>kanye west took THIS classic bill withers song...
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ROGOHNSEBs
>
>
>THIS classic diana ross song...
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQtrMHuejY
>
>
>
>and created THIS brand new record, that is pretty damn good.
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyhHV8G0vpU
>
>
>
>
>that is an entirely new drum patter that he created.
>it sounds nothing like "use me."
>
>the vocal sample doesn't sound like "the interm"
>
>
>
>
>no, kanye can't play any instruments.
>if you gave him a snare drum, he couldn't play that rim shot.
>
>but he DID create a new song.
>it's original.
>
>
>everybody doesn't do what puffy did
>to "i'm coming out."
>
>
>kanye wrote a new song.
>
>
>
>
>now you may say he loses points b/c
>he couldn't play all that stuff if you gave him some
>instruments.
>
>i call bullshit...
>punk rockers could barely play.

right here.... nobody is saying that ye himself has to be able to play everything...he could have composed some music and had musicians play the original compostion....ok, but he didn't do that. You're narrowing this down to me believing that the issue is whether Kanye can play something or not. Not the point. He got to the end result by sampling...ok...the song is cool, that's fine. But what he did to get there doesn't require the skills that it took the make the records he sampled. That's all I'm really saying..

whether Punk rockers can play well or not....whatever they were playing was them using instruments to make original compositions.




>
>and songwriters like michael jackson
>can't play any instruments at all... they tell other people
>what to play, and they make it happen.

absolutely.... Same with James Brown.....

doing that is distinctly different from sampling. Because it took Quincy Jones, Rod Temperton and the musicians to make what Mike wanted a reality..... and all those people together...all those skills of all thos people together is greater than a person sampling the end result.....


>
>
>
>i don't know why you are being so stubborn about this.
>hip hop producers can create a new thing.

Not every new thing is the same thing.


>they morph existing sounds
>into something different.

right..but see..I think it's super over generalizing to put what a sample based producers does on the same level as what the producer of the original and the associated musicians did.


>
>again... do you REALLY think that the songs
>on "it takes a nations of millinos to hold us back"
>sound anything like the songs they samppled from?

No....but just because it doesn't sound the same means that we should dismiss the efforts and talents that went into making the original records that made the sounds and music that was sampled.

>
>dilla made shit unrecognizable.

whether it's recogniable or not...which again I do make a distinction between that type of sampling and some of the other stuff I'm talking about.....

>
>
>
>it's not a pefect metaphore,
>but punk rock and hip hop (used to) have so much in common.
>i don't know why the analogy isn't made more often.
>

punk rockers didn't utilize other people's records to make their music though. Yes the comparison between punk and hip hop is strong and can recall times even here on west coast in the 80's when the coexisted together.


>
>
>obviously... i obviously don't value the ability
>to play instruments as much as you do.
>
>all i care about is a good song.
>
>
>
>i don't care that MJ couldn't play piano.
>he was able to tell the piano player what to play,
>and the end result was dope.
>
>

that's fine....but again with no offense to anyone, I feel like that attitude is the outcome of a lowering of standards related to music. Poeple had to have certain skills just to get a chance back in the day. and it kept the quality at a very high level. Not so much now in my opinion.



>
>
>i don't care who's a better "technical" player.
>jeff beck can play his ass off, but he has like maybe
>one song that i kinda like.
>
>
>
>
>so while i respect musicians, of course...
>i don't care how hard it was
>to get the effect that you got.
>
>
>i want a song.


you'd have better songs to listen to if you have more people striving towards the traditional standards and skillsets..even more no because of all the innovations...it would be great thing.

>
>
>punk rockers took rudimentary musical ability
>and turned it into something new.
>
something that they created with their own hands.


>hip hop producers (sometimes/ often times)
>take even less musical ability to create something new.
>

not always.....


>
>
>i don't know how much clearer i can say it.
>
>
>
>
>
>>punk rockers not playing well and other genre's players
>>looking down on them is not the same as sampling....using
>the
>>actual recording of other people's work..
>>
>>just don't see the connection.
>
H