Poll question: Which Gang Starr album is better? Hard To Earn vs. Moment of Truth

Poll result (102 votes) Hard To Earn (48 votes) Vote Moment of Truth (54 votes) Vote

Don't act like that shit ain't bloated. FOH!!!
________
Big PEMFin H & z's
█▆▇▅▇█▇▆▄▁▃
"I ain't no entertainer, and ain't trying to be one. I am one thing, a musician." © Miles Davis

"When the music stops he falls back in the abyss."

For the record:

"Moment of Truth">any Gang Starr album you list.



"Yo, G, I'm SORRY, I apologize." (c) KRS-One


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

And lol at bloated.

Other than that terrible interlude before Rep Grows Bigga, that album rides the whole way thru.

Daily Operation and Hard To Earn are both classics as well, but Primo took all of the ill production he did for outside artists between 94-98 and just loaded MOT with that style of bangers.

Of course you probably think it somehow validates you to say one of their older albums is their best though.

>Primo took all of the ill production he did for outside
>artists between 94-98 and just loaded MOT with that style of
>bangers.



__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

and why it IS bloated lol

it sounds like any old primo beats, not beats for gangstarr, and the fact so many guys outside GS unit are on it just ends up to it sounding a bit anonymous for a GS album

How is Primo NOT going to sound like Gang Starr.

He IS Gang Starr.

And the guest appearances are maybe the best collective guest appearances of all-time

Deck, MOP, Freddie Foxx, Krumb Snatcha, Scarface, K Ci and JoJo.

Great great album from top to bottom.

And the fact that Primo's style at that point was well known for outside production made it even better to me because Guru sounded like he had something to prove and it's without a doubt his best album lyrically.

>How is Primo NOT going to sound like Gang Starr.
>
>He IS Gang Starr.

although i take it with a pinch of salt, i think premier is being honest when he talks about beats that work best for gang starr and beats he would give to other artists. i dont think come clean or 2nd childhood would work for guru. never mind half the beats he gives to MOP - guru trying to out-MOP freddie foxx or MOP is just a mistake, and that is almost what he was trying to do on MOT.

>And the guest appearances are maybe the best collective guest
>appearances of all-time
>
>Deck, MOP, Freddie Foxx, Krumb Snatcha, Scarface, K Ci and
>JoJo.

sure.

>And the fact that Primo's style at that point was well known
>for outside production made it even better to me because Guru
>sounded like he had something to prove and it's without a
>doubt his best album lyrically.

he was trying too hard.

>>How is Primo NOT going to sound like Gang Starr.
>>
>>He IS Gang Starr.
>
>although i take it with a pinch of salt, i think premier is
>being honest when he talks about beats that work best for gang
>starr and beats he would give to other artists. i dont think
>come clean or 2nd childhood would work for guru. never mind
>half the beats he gives to MOP - guru trying to out-MOP
>freddie foxx or MOP is just a mistake, and that is almost what
>he was trying to do on MOT.
>


I think Primo does keep in mind what MC is on what beat which is why I don't think the complaint of MOT sounding like Primo on cruise control is a valid excuse because all of those beats work for Guru.

Obviously the beats which featured MOP worked for them as well but I think the production was laid out perfectly as far as beats for Guru and then beats for guest spots that Guru could also jump on.

when someone has a different opinion than you. Definitely.

well then, that makes Primo, Guru, & ?uest.

>Don't act like that shit ain't bloated. FOH!!!

Sure it is a long LP, but that came out my senior year of high school and I rocked it to death. I only got around to Hard 2 Earn only a few years ago (though knew the singles well). Maybe is the nostalgia or the fact I "grew up" with Moment of Truth, that it feels like a more natural fit to me. I like the jazzy production a lot. Both LPs are great though. The singles from Hard 2 Earn might be a little bit stronger. You really cannot go wrong with Code, DWYCK, and Mass Appeal.

-----------------------------
http://www.shenzhenphotos.com

not that MOT is poo-poo, far from it. It's the textbook "back from a several year layoff" album.

but Hard To Earn came in the middle of a "F.U." period in music. You could argue that Moment of Truth did, as in 1998, hip-hop was in the midst of a pop-chart dominating, "we really don't hate you, radio" period, and a lot of that album seems to stand firmly to the left of it. But it wasn't as "F.U." as Hard To Earn was.

That album actually shocked me when I heard it the first time. Chilling beats, Guru just cussin' and sounding mad... I remember getting this and LETHAL INJECTION the same day. I took the latter back, and kept this one.

HTE was part of a group of albums that I felt were a direct response to the increasingly slick, accessible sounds of the post-Chronic rap world. I think (New York) rappers put their best efforts out artistically when they were slighted in the mainstream. This album is no different.

I mean, the lead single was "Mass Appeal", a song that basically called out that kind of rap. Probably one of their best known songs.

How did you determine your sports allegiances? Haha - they seem maddddd random. Unless I'm missing something in which case just explain it to me and I'll go away. But the combination of teams in your signature just seem to have no rhyme or reason. I'm legitimately interested to know how you landed on all of them.

>Jays | Cavs | (Space for Rent) | Sabres | Tarheels

>How did you determine your sports allegiances? Haha - they
>seem maddddd random. Unless I'm missing something in which
>case just explain it to me and I'll go away. But the
>combination of teams in your signature just seem to have no
>rhyme or reason. I'm legitimately interested to know how you
>landed on all of them.

I was born in WNY (Jays, Sabres). Those teams stuck because I saw a good number of their games/ads when I was a kid.

Didn't get into football until late so the Eagles (there's more to this, but that's the general thrust)

Half of my family is from NC and being a Heels fan was non-negotiable.

The Cavs fandom started in that Daugherty/Price era... and I think it was because at the time I mistook them for the Knicks on TV. Someone told me they were the Cleveland team and at the time I was like... "even better!" -- I have a lot of ties to the area, going back before my birth).

Had I stayed in WNY it would have been:

Jays/Sabres/Bills/Knicks/ ...

for college I might have broken ranks and gone w/the Orange(men) (and I briefly entertained the idea of actually going to Cuse).

But since I moved so much, there's little continuity with the teams.

A well rounded, hardened sports fan haha...you've seen some pain and struggles with a couple of those teams over the years. But that all makes sense. I figured it had something to do with moving and/or family origins.

You explained why you liked it more but none of that had to do with the quality of the music.

I feel Primo and Guru were in more of a zone, a zone that they were working towards, on MOT.

I feel like that's when it all came together.

>You explained why you liked it more but none of that had to
>do with the quality of the music.

Premier, in particular, was in the zone that gained him the reputation that he's held for so long in the business. '94 and '95 were the last years where his beats had a shared theme, but none of the real "sameness" that instantly identified them as Premier beats (and were subsequently easily imitated). There was a diversity in the drum kits he would use then. Which says nothing for the outright dirtiness of the finished product ("ALONGWAYTOGO", "Brainstorm", "Tonz of Gunz" "Speak Ya Clout", and "The ? Remainz" which unfortunately was confined to B-Side hell for years).

By '98, Premier had settled into his familar style (though to his credit, MOT has a number of songs that step outside of that comfort zone, namely "You Know My Steez", "Robbin Hood Theory", "Royalty", "My Advice 2 You", and that set's B-side, "So Wassup")... while the beats are hard, a lot of them have the same feeling and structure as what he was providing to artist such as Jeru (on the 2nd album, which I felt was an exercise in bringing that "new Premier" style to the forefront) or O.C. (ditto). There weren't too many outside the above listed that I could see Premier not saving for Gang Starr, but at the same time, the reason why a lot of those songs work is because they are Gang Starr songs.

Guru's own performance may have lacked some of the polish that he had on the surrounding efforts and his own Jazzmatazz albums released in the period, but it loses none of the power. I think the sense of frustration that Guru exhibits on many of the tracks, is best established on HARD TO EARN'S intro, where he goes off on hangers-on, and general wackness of the industry.

The resultant effort is an album that just says "F.U." arguably louder than some of his contemporaries do in the time. Though, not as loudly as Jeru, whose debut album was very much the more refined, yet more biting cousin. Again, context is key, Guru was coming off the Jazzmatazz, which was a much more refined and restrained affair, largely due to the high-profile guests. Premier's most high-profile project in that time was RETURN OF THE BOOM-BAP, which I felt was a legendary "F.U." type of album... it was cool that after Premier and arguably one of the most famous and revered MCs in the history of rap music could make that kind of connection off several tracks, that Guru and Premier could reunite and deliver an even more intense sort of album together.

That spirit and feeling was gone on MOT, as it could have worked to their detriment in the market. Guru has settled into a mode mirroring his albums prior to HARD TO EARN, but with more contemporary sounding production. I think the overall experience and context of the album tends to tilt me toward HARD TO EARN, even if I concede that the careful crafting and efforts of both Guru and Premier produced music to a higher standard.

>By '98, Premier had settled into his familar style (though to
>his credit, MOT has a number of songs that step outside of
>that comfort zone, namely "You Know My Steez", "Robbin Hood
>Theory", "Royalty", "My Advice 2 You", and that set's B-side,
>"So Wassup")... while the beats are hard, a lot of them have
>the same feeling and structure as what he was providing to
>artist such as Jeru (on the 2nd album, which I felt was an
>exercise in bringing that "new Premier" style to the
>forefront) or O.C. (ditto). There weren't too many outside the
>above listed that I could see Premier not saving for Gang
>Starr, but at the same time, the reason why a lot of those
>songs work is because they are Gang Starr songs.
>

I guess I just don't see that as an issue. At the end of the day, dope is dope. I'm not going to pause to say "this is dope but it has the same structure as...". I feel that is just searching for reasons to discredit something.

>Guru's own performance may have lacked some of the polish that
>he had on the surrounding efforts and his own Jazzmatazz
>albums released in the period, but it loses none of the power.
>I think the sense of frustration that Guru exhibits on many of
>the tracks, is best established on HARD TO EARN'S intro, where
>he goes off on hangers-on, and general wackness of the
>industry.
>

How is Guru going off on the industry any more than Primo at the end of Royalty? Maybe you feel Guru's performance more on Hard To Earn but I would argue that lyrically and conceptually, he was more focused and executed better on MOT.

>The resultant effort is an album that just says "F.U."
>arguably louder than some of his contemporaries do in the
>time. Though, not as loudly as Jeru, whose debut album was
>very much the more refined, yet more biting cousin. Again,
>context is key, Guru was coming off the Jazzmatazz, which was
>a much more refined and restrained affair, largely due to the
>high-profile guests. Premier's most high-profile project in
>that time was RETURN OF THE BOOM-BAP, which I felt was a
>legendary "F.U." type of album... it was cool that after
>Premier and arguably one of the most famous and revered MCs in
>the history of rap music could make that kind of connection
>off several tracks, that Guru and Premier could reunite and
>deliver an even more intense sort of album together.
>

But all this is really stating is that you have a preference to albums that are an "F.U." statement.

>That spirit and feeling was gone on MOT, as it could have
>worked to their detriment in the market. Guru has settled into
>a mode mirroring his albums prior to HARD TO EARN, but with
>more contemporary sounding production. I think the overall
>experience and context of the album tends to tilt me toward
>HARD TO EARN, even if I concede that the careful crafting and
>efforts of both Guru and Premier produced music to a higher
>standard.

I hear you...but like I said, I think at this point your opinion is what it is due to your preference. I actually gave both albums a spin recently and I may even like Hard To Earn better but I just can't say it's due to the quality. It kind of like The Roots. I feel they hit their stride and everything came together on Game Theory but Illadelph is my favorite album of theirs for other reasons.

There's a lot of really good songs on Moment of Truth, but I get the urge to skip around often. Sometimes it's not even the content, it's just that the beats have a somber, reflective tone to them. I prefer the swaggerful, surly feel of Hard to Earn. I respect the hell out of Moment of Truth and I think it's a great piece of art, but it doesn't give me the type of energy that I'm usually looking for when I listen to rap.
_________________________________________
The Combat Jack Show is THE best hip-hop related internet radio show
Catch up http://pncradio.tumblr.com/

I love both, I prefer Moment of Truth personally just because I feel it's more polished. But it doesn't win by much.

But, as I said, your breakdown is pretty accurate IMO. Depending on my mood, I'll listen to one or the other. If I'm in the mood for more upbeat, boastful, "swag" (hate that word) type listening, HTE gets the nod. If I'm reflective or just want easy listening, MOT will be popped in.

I thought "Moment of truth" was amazing when it came out but it is lacking some of the energy with dull tracks like the Mall and a general sense of malaise in the second half.

Hard to earn I didn't like initially because I felt Gang Starr were trying too hard to sound hardcore-"Daily Operation" was hardcore too but "laidback" hardcore. Then it dawned on me that the sound of those records aren't really that much different, "HTE" just KNOCKS much harder in the drums and stuff whereas "DO" sounds a bit lo-fi in comparison. Basically, "HTE" sounds more muscular and in your face based on what I guess is engineering and equipment and I wasn't used to that sound with Gang Starr but that was what Primo was going for with his outside productions so I have warmed up to it over the years.

the planet alone makes that album classic

FALA and suckas need bodyguards are weak-ish moments but MOT is a pretty bloated album, with too many guests, guru and premier not really that in sync, premier talking too much, and theres nothing on there to match daily operation or hard to earn. its gangstarr basically collecting their praise, a victory lap, after so many years of keeping it underground, but its nothing to write home about on its own strength. i actually prefer the ownerz.

>FALA and suckas need bodyguards are weak-ish moments

That's NOT the type of choruses I want to hear on a Gang Starr album but it was cool in NYC at the time so... Additionally, "Aaight, chill" is an excersise in tedium, "Dwyck" and "Now your'e Mine" don't fit stylistically even if they are dope and Primo wasted a really cool beat on a Melachi the Nutcracker interlude (not a big deal but still).EDIT:Then again, I can't really hear Guru flowing over that beat so maybe it was a good way to get a cool idea out but i would have prefered it as an instrumental along the lines of the interludes on "Daily Operation" and "Step"

Basically, not the most consistent Gang Starr album but I still like it more than "Moment of truth".

Actually, I think both records are awesome-flaws and all-but the last times I've played "MOT", I start to lose interest in the second half and I don't think it measure up to the preceding three; it's just too long and inconsistent and even a bit boring at points. Also, primo was Primo(tm); it's a great formula but there are many great songs on the preceding albums that sounds totally unlike what he would do later.

MOT felt very important at the time because the Rawkus/underground-movement was in full swing and gang Starr were the heroes to all the true heads but at the same time, mainstream Hip-Hop was going down the shitter so the album was like "Yes! the legends are keeping it real! Boom Bap forever!" which of course is also what everyone expected after the long break. But yeah, I think it felt better then than it does now...

LOL those are 2 of my favorite joints on the album, you're buggin!



F.A.L.A. is a prime example of how Primo turns shit into sugar. He just repeats basically the same piano key over and over again, throws it over some drums that slap, and sprinkles in a whistle. And turns it into a dope vintage 90's east coast classic beat. (not to mention the scratching at the end which was dope)


& I loved hearing angry Guru on Suckas need bodyguards. It was almost like "see, this guy isn't a robot that was engineered to spit concise 16's and drop knowledge. He has emotions too." I didn't think it was forced or corny though, he just seemed like he was getting a lot of shit off his chest.

>Hard to earn I didn't like initially because I felt Gang Starr
>were trying too hard to sound hardcore

this is what I was touching on with my earlier reply; that I was just "shocked" at the harder edge that a lot of these songs had. Later, I came to the conclusion that this was no harder than earlier efforts, save the extra cussing from Guru's part.

Guru was more of a "refined" rapper to me; he might curse but not too often. I mean, "Take It Personal" was a good example of being restrained lyrically, but hardcore. it was one of the core appeals of Gang Starr (why they were never vilified in the press for example). It'd blow up your speakers, but you could get away with listening to a song like that if you were younger. (IMO, a lot of Public Enemy was like this, too. Lines like "FUCKIN UP THE GOVERNMENT" from Chuck D were rarer than was printed).

More than this, I felt this (strangely enough) about Tribe's BEATS, RHYMES & LIFE. I didn't really see ATCQ as a real "cussing" or "hardcore" group, at least not lyrically; so to hear Q-Tip going off like he did and hearing gunshots in the coda of one of the first tracks off the album I was like WTF?!

That song really threw me off because I was used to hearing him cool and in control and here both the words and the sound of his actual voice was like a guy really pissed off!!!

younger when it came out than when hard to earn was released.

.........................................................................................................what?

Hard to Earn - released 1994
Moment of Truth - released 1998

>younger when it came out than when hard to earn was
>released.

.....................................what.

MOT was the first gangstarr album that they bought

hence they were younger

but really the best gang starr albums were step in the arena, hard to earn and daily operation

>MOT was the first gangstarr album that they bought
>
>hence they were younger

Ok. You didn't word it that way so I was confused. I see what you're saying now.


>but really the best gang starr albums were step in the arena,
>hard to earn and daily operation

Well, sure. In your opinion. I bought HTE before I bought MOT and, therefore, was younger when I first heard HTE...and I like MOT better.

I had "Hard to Earn" first, then MOT, then "Full Clip", and then their first 3 albums.

Everyone else is offering well-reasoned explanations for why they may prefer "Hard to Earn" and you're playing the age card on albums that have been out more than long enough for people to have made up their minds on which album they like more based on the merits of the music.



__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

when i first joined the lesson at how many people thought MOT was their best album. i put it down to their age lol. i cant think of another reason. most people that like life after death seem to have missed ready to die too. i think age has a lot to do with the albums you really love.

then of course theres just opinions that come down to bad taste lol

>then of course theres just opinions that come down to bad
>taste lol

Moment of Truth is just simply the better album.

Cause I would have voted Moment of Truth a few years ago for that exact reason, cause I was only 10 when Hard To Earn came out. But now I realize it's better. In fact everything from like '89-'96 is the best.

And the aforementioned obnoxious "Rep Grows Bigga" interlude. Love "MOT" in general, but "Hard to Earn" is just better.

I agree there for sure.

lol

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

For a materialistic brag-fest, the verses are solid and I eff with the beat.

I'll admit that MoT wouldn't suffer any if "The Mall" wasn't on the album, but as far as songs that always come up in "worst song on otherwise great albums" discussions, it's a solid track.

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

______________________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/Gedi

"This is your world. Shape it or someone else will." - Gary Lew

I felt like "Next Time" was probably a better example, even though it's not a bad song... Premier could have dropped that beat with someone other than Guru and it'd still work... not as well, but it would work.

a beat that could've been used for a lot of people. Love that track regardless tho.

with Primo doing the drums on it

I'm embarrassed that I didn't know that. I'm gonna need to look for myself (not that I have any reason to not believe you, I just want to read the credits myself for visual proof). That's wild. I always assumed it was Primo, for a million obvious reasons.

he also did She Knows What She Wants

I think that's the joint that Guru picked the sample and Primo did drums.

.

________________________________

(屮ﾟДﾟ )屮

I'm surprised it's getting hated on like that.

Yet every time this topic comes up, folks give this bullshit a pass cause they don't like shopping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9koEWoHu4c

Really, this song ain't worse than the Mall?

There's nothing redeeming about this song.
At least the Mall sounds like Primo.

one
k. orr

and it's a great song in my opinion

...or even Speak Ya Clout for that matter ...That said, MOT is an incredible album and along with Petes Soul Survivor, the best album from 1998

don't forget DWYCK as well

And yes I'm old enough to have bought them as they were released.

Even now I'll listen to MOT and DO more than SITA and HTE, but that's just my preference.

while Hard To Earn's brightest spots outshine the brightest on Moment of truth

there is a common theme that they do a pretty good job of sticking to on M.O.T, maybe its like that on Hard to Earn, I'll have to go back and re-listen

sonically/thematically Moment Of Truth outshines Hard To Earn IMO.

______________________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/Gedi

"This is your world. Shape it or someone else will." - Gary Lew

Both "Dwyck" and "Now your'e mine" were old songs that don't really fit IMO-they don't even have the same type of sound, you can hear it in the drums. And there's some *blatant* filler whereas MOT is just song after song of solid Gang Starr with some annoying talking thrown in every now and then but still. Doesn't make it better though IMO...

>feels like MOT is more cohesive while Hard To Earn's brightest spots >outshine the brightest
>on Moment of truth

i might have to go re-listen my damn self, despite my vote for MOT

This is a question where I would vote Moment of Truth to the OP, but I think Hard to Earn would be the answer this question.

~Austin

I think Moment of Truth just flowed better from start to finish as an album. My vote goes to Moment of Truth.

______________________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/Gedi

"This is your world. Shape it or someone else will." - Gary Lew

To me the highs on Hard to Earn are higher than Moment of Truth.
A few of the other posters have already given good reasons why.

But to me, Hard To Earn is the last of a trio of great Gang Starr albums starting with Step In the Arena and ending with Hard To Earn.

.

...i love HTE too, so it's close, but i start thinking bout "Royalty", "Above the clouds", "Work", "Betrayal", "Rep Grows Bigger", "Robin Hood Theory", "you know my steeze", militia", "ny straight talk", "next time", etc.....i really played the fuck outta that album...

;)

I feel like there's lots of groups that you need to have knowledge of fully to really understand the headspace that The Lesson is at.

Dilla is one, obviously the Roots, Tribe, etc...

I've heard tons of Gang Starr tracks, and have strong feelings, memories about them, but only "singles", specific songs. And I've never gotten a chance to dig deep. Since this post I've listened to MOT like 3 times through. Going to go backwards, and then listen to Ownerz.

Thanks for indirectly motivating. I'm in hip hop heaven right now.

Both Hard To Earn and Moment of Truth are classic albums but Moment of Truth just flows better as an album in my opinion. Gang Starr has some incredible albums.

it's one of the best albums Hip Hop has ever produced
'Ru covered more ground on this record than people realize
a lot of the songs even when it seems like he's just saying some fly shit, he's actually talking to/about himself in an earnest way
it was full of knowledge but not preachy, artful and authoritative but not self-important, and stayed true to the past but looked to the future
and Primo took the new techniques he created, as Nonny said up top, in the previous 5 years and put them in the Gang Starr mold and created a 2o song album with no filler
cmon now, this nigga was taking samps and slowing them down with the chops to speed them up-listen to Royalty then listen to the source record
you HAVE to give it up, duke did really did some amazing shit on that album

I really think this is one of those times where people just refuse to say anything is better than the classic from back in the day.

People really feel good about themselves when they feel like they were up on the old school albums and it's almost as if they think that validates their credibility as a hip-hop fan.

They like to be able to tell the newer hip-hop fans that they need to get up on the older classics. Is like that separates them as a hip-hop listener.

And to be honest, in most cases it works, but MOT is one of those albums that is simply better than the ones before it and again I will use Game Theory as another example.

MOT is Guru's finest moment and I really don't understand thinking the production on the previous albums is better and that is kind of a slap in the face to Primo. Because no matter how classic those older records are, Primo put his foot into MOT and like you said, laced 20 joints with the style he was perfecting and known for. MOT is where is all came together.

You Know My Steez, Robbin Hoodz Theory, Work, Royalty, Above The Clouds, JFK to LAX, The Set-Up, Moment of Truth, BI vs Friendship, Militia, Rep Grows Bigga, What I'm Here For, She Knows, NY Straight Talk, My Advice To You, Make Them Pay, The Mall, Scandolous, Next Time, In Memory Of...

Look at those tracks...where are the weak songs? The Mall may be corny because of the hook, but that beat is dope as hell and Dep's verse is hot. Rep Grows is weaker and the interlude before hand helps in giving it the skip button but the track itself is still a dope album cut and a different style to break up the album. The Set-Up isn't a stand out but that beat is grimy as hell and it's a cool 3 minute joint.

What other complaints can you have about the album?

And I can even see people saying HTE has higher highs because they may be more connected to Mass Appeal or Code of The Streets or DWYCK but as a whole...nah.

And I LOVE HTE. Both albums are in my top whatever.

>I really think this is one of those times where people just
>refuse to say anything is better than the classic from back in
>the day.
>
>People really feel good about themselves when they feel like
>they were up on the old school albums and it's almost as if
>they think that validates their credibility as a hip-hop fan.
>
>They like to be able to tell the newer hip-hop fans that they
>need to get up on the older classics. Is like that separates
>them as a hip-hop listener.


First of all, hard to earn came out in 94-that's not old school. I was 19 when that album dropped and 23 when MOT dropped-not a big deal. I could just as well say that the reason you dig MOT more is because you were too young to truly appreciate HTE when it came out whereas MOT hit you at just the right moment-that's the type of nonsense you push.

you always act very insecure in these threads; why not just let people have their opinions without you projecting or assuming there is some agenda or underlying motive (quote:"They like to be able to tell the newer hip-hop fans that they need to get up on the older classics. Is like that separates them as a hip-hop listener.")

It's actually insulting...

>First of all, hard to earn came out in 94-that's not old
>school. I was 19 when that album dropped and 23 when MOT
>dropped-not a big deal. I could just as well say that the
>reason you dig MOT more is because you were too young to truly
>appreciate HTE when it came out whereas MOT hit you at just
>the right moment-that's the type of nonsense you push.
>

You could say this but it would be wrong. I copped HTE when it dropped as well. 94-96 are my favorite years in Hip-Hop and in most cases, I prefer the albums from that time frame than the ones from 98 because 97 really was a shifting year. So you can say there isn't that much time difference but to me there is because of the state of the game.

>you always act very insecure in these threads; why not just
>let people have their opinions without you projecting or
>assuming there is some agenda or underlying motive
>(quote:"They like to be able to tell the newer hip-hop fans
>that they need to get up on the older classics. Is like that
>separates them as a hip-hop listener.")
>

Insecure? What the entire fuck are you talking about? The very word you just typed "opinions" is exactly what I'm talking about. People never can separate their opinion from the actual music. Just like I said, Illadelph is my favorite Roots album, I can still objectively say that Game Theory is their best album. People love skipping over points of peoples reply just because they catch feeling about another. and my reply was more of a response to people who are attempting to "project their opinion" that HTE is without a doubt better than MOT.

>It's actually insulting...

Something is only insulting if you take it that way so I don't really give a fuck my man.

Now reply if you want to talk about the quality of the music instead of your bitch ass feeling.

.

I thought this was about music?

That's all I ever do. You on the other hand are more interested in attacking the messenger than the message which put you in the Cold Truth/Philpot/(unfortunately sometime Howisya)-category. I have lost enough braincells dealing with guys of your sort...

You came on here catching feelings about something I posted and didn't mention with album in the entire body of your reply?

Is that not true?

~Austin

Please donate.
For Anthony: http://bit.ly/xIIjaE
For Cris: http://bit.ly/whuzky

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

Why don't you go ahead and shut the fuck up because no one was even talking to you.

Again, you can join in with this other guy and let me know when you want to discuss the albums.

Or you two can continue to prove my point.

~Austin

Please donate.
For Anthony: http://bit.ly/xIIjaE
For Cris: http://bit.ly/whuzky

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

At least I can admit when I'm wrong.

~Austin

Please donate.
For Anthony: http://bit.ly/xIIjaE
For Cris: http://bit.ly/whuzky

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

I revised it before you even replied the first time.

And yes I was wrong.

I posted.

Read the post and hit edit.

So who's the jackass?

>I revised it before you even replied the first time.
>

That's why I was able to see it, right?

Keep trying, champ.

~Austin

Please donate.
For Anthony: http://bit.ly/xIIjaE
For Cris: http://bit.ly/whuzky

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

Either way, if fixing someone's misspelled word because you have nothing of relevancy to add to the topic at hand makes you feel better then...by all means.

The psychoanalysis has begun, so I'll be leaving now.

~Austin

Please donate.
For Anthony: http://bit.ly/xIIjaE
For Cris: http://bit.ly/whuzky

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

Because I'm still waiting for either of you to talk about Hard to Earn or Moment of Truth.

All before your psychoanalysis BTW...

It is what it is. And you'd be ignorant to think my statements don't hold weight.

And I spoke about the album with other posters as well.

You came at me about nothing in regards to the album.

Either way, I know you're cool peoples on here, quite different from Austin, so I'll continue the convo.

Hard to Earn is just not as polished as MoT in my opinion. And I don't mean polished by the sound because I know some would say that is a negative. I just mean more polished in the sense that the album was more carefully crafted. I feel the scratching is better throughout. I feel the beats on a whole are better throughout. And I definitely feel like Guru was at his peak as far as his lyrics, delivery, and content.

Hard to Earn is a 1994 classic to me and there aren't many albums better than those that came out in that era. But I feel MoT is the exception. I can tell how much work went into that record. I can see why Guru and Primo say it's their best.

I really feel like its on the short list of greatest produced albums of all- time and the fact Guru was at his peak only is a plus.

I feel like Primo was in his zone at that point and Guru felt like he had something to prove because everyone was lacing Primo's beats. He had to step it up for people not to say, "damn I wish Primo gave this beat to Nas"

And they executed perfectly. And I don't like albums to be any longer than 16 tracks...and they went for the gusto with the 20 and made a complete banger.

To me, there is just something special about MoT. Hard to Earn and Daily Operation are classics but MoT was a premeditated opus that hit the mark.

and neither one of them sound out of place
I'd have thought that shit would be pretty close to impossible to pull off, and I doubt anyone else could've done it
also both Primo and pre-Solar 'Ru said MOT was the best record either worked on by leaps and bounds

I hope everyone understands I mean no offense in any way.

but I'm just curious.

The way he let himself get manipulated, etc.

Can you listen to him "dropping knowledge" etc and still feel it the same way?

personally I never really thought about it like that, when going back and listening to old GS albums. I just chalk it up to everyone's got moments of weakness and anyone can be duped given the right/perfect circumstances. So I can't let what ultimately did him in change the way I feel about all the things he said and all the important knowledge he dropped on his old works at all.

But again, I do definitely see your point.

Or my enjoyment of the music.
__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

didn't exist on wax, and certainly not in the age of Gang Starr.

I was never a Gangstarr fan **like that** so Im not/wasn't as emotionally connected to the situation.

I was curious if any of his diehards felt a certain way about it.

Somehow I knew Brew and Doc would reply to me too...guess that's not rocket science though.


I actually gave MOT a spin the other day...as far the as the topic I'd have to give MOT the nod but will give HTE a spin this weekend. Been a while...

>Somehow I knew Brew and Doc would reply to me too...guess
>that's not rocket science though.

What's that supposed to mean?

know that I'm not trying to be an a$$hole, or disrespectful....just asking a question

I don't think that question is disrespectful at all. It makes sense. And with people like Guru who get pretty personal in their music, it's a reasonable question to ask.

only explanation for the results here.

>only explanation for the results here.

__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

how fucking stupid are we really going to get on these boards.

I HAD HARD TO EARN IN 1994.

Hard To Earn for the EXACT reasons Dr Claw specified.


MOT saw the post Rawkus boom trustafarian crowd play johnny come lately IMO. And it's bloated.

The other did not.

Primo's outside work has a lot to do with it. I feel MOT is Gang Starr's attempt to overcome the mistake made with Group Home's debut. Everybody knows those beats shouldn't have been given to Group Home, that was the consensus then, still is. Primo's beats are as good as that album, but to make sure the lyrics weren't going to be an issue, they recruited heavily. Props to dude with the layover point, because that's clearly an issue despite their attempts, but on a technical level, they needed just above average lyrics for the downright bangers of tracks on this album. Primo MOT> Primo HTE.

your team could never dream of competing with Gang Starr (c) one of the best yet

which puts it in 4th place

1 - Hard To Earn
2 - Step In The Arena
3 - Daily Operation
4 - Moment Of Truth

this is one of those only on the Lesson posts right?

I think the context is lost

There wasn't much anticipation for MOT

Guru and Premo had all but gone their separate ways, at least that was the impression

Guru had moved onto his Jazzmatazz series, which suprisingly didn't include Premo

Premo had all but flooded the market with his production 94-98

I got the feeling that both of these guys were getting bigger as individuals

outside of the Group

and the Gangstarr routine felt forced on MOT

The albums I ranked above MOT had far more impact on Hip-Hop

they defined the Gangstarr formula

and it was fresh

by the time MOT got released it sounded like everything else

"...then you was not there" - JUSTICE

>this is one of those only on the Lesson posts right?
>

No, it really isn't. An only in the Lesson post would be "Doom is the GOAT"


>I think the context is lost
>
>There wasn't much anticipation for MOT
>

Really? I would say the 4 year hiatus coupled with how dope Primo's outside production was would equal the exact opposite. The cards were stacked against them at that point. You had newer fans to hip-hop that knew Primo from outside production first copping their first Gang Starr album, and you had older fans who wondered what a Gang Starr album in 1998 would sound like and I don't think either group was disappointed regardless of where you place MOT in their catalogue. That right there is a testament to how dope the album is.


>Guru and Premo had all but gone their separate ways, at least
>that was the impression
>

That was never my impression at all. I felt like they were just doing outside work but I never thought of them as breaking up.


>Guru had moved onto his Jazzmatazz series, which suprisingly
>didn't include Premo
>

Yea but that Primo remix of Lifesaver was the shit!


>Premo had all but flooded the market with his production
>94-98
>

He did but he was at his peak at that point. EVERYTHING was insane. People were still copping albums if they saw Primo was involved at that time and All City is proof of that. Primo was lacing everyone and when the word of a long-overdue Gang Starr album broke, people were highly anticipating it.


>I got the feeling that both of these guys were getting bigger
>as individuals
>
>outside of the Group
>

I don't see how that factors in at all, one way or the other.


>and the Gangstarr routine felt forced on MOT
>

I really don't think that at all either. MOT IS Gang Starr. I love how people on here will say things like this merely from an outsiders perspective when both Primo and Guru said it was their best album. How do you know that every album before wasn't forced and they finally got it right IN THEIR MINDS with MOT?


>The albums I ranked above MOT had far more impact on Hip-Hop
>

Impact is one of the most overrated ideas of how to rank albums. an album's impact has little to nothing to do with it's quality.


>they defined the Gangstarr formula
>

see the MOT Intro.


>and it was fresh
>

You Know My Steez wasn't fresh?
Royalty wasn't fresh?
Above The Clouds wasn't fresh?
the fact they worked with artists outside the camp and made it work wasn't fresh?

come on man, people are reaching at this point.

>by the time MOT got released it sounded like everything else
>

If I was Primo and Guru I would either laugh that off or tell you to shut the fuck up. Because as an artist, it's disrespectful to say an opus like MOT with Primo lacing the beats and Guru lacing the lyrics sounded just like all of Primo's outside production. Because that is what you're hinting at right?

People don't appreciate the subtle ways that Primo gears his beats for the MC he is working with all while keeping his signature sound.

and Guru sounds nothing like Nas, Jay, Biggie, OC, Jeru, MOP, Group Home, Fat Joe, or whoever else Primo was lacing so it's disrespectful to him to pass of MOT as "sounding like everything else" because that is far from the truth.

and you could have left it at that

but since you didn't

I'll explain it like this

I have all of their albums, including the compilations

and I was collecting music when they were released

HTE is THE GANGSTARR album

when I want to hear GANGSTARR, I put HTE on

and MOT would be the 4th album I would consider listening to when I'm in a GANGSTARR mood

HTE resonates track for track

the 2nd half of MOT, specifically after MOT...not so much

"You Know My Steez wasn't fresh?
Royalty wasn't fresh?
Above The Clouds wasn't fresh?
the fact they worked with artists outside the camp and made it work wasn't fresh?"

was cuttin up a Method Man line for the chorus fresh in 98', No it wasn't

was gettin Jodeci to sing your hook fresh in 98', No it wasn't

was gettin a Wu MC to cameo on your track fresh in 98', No it wasn't

the work they were doin outside of Gangstarr was fresh to me and that's why I felt like coming back together to put out MOT felt forced

>and you could have left it at that
>

I could have but this is a music discussion board so I didn't.

>but since you didn't
>
>I'll explain it like this
>
>I have all of their albums, including the compilations
>
>and I was collecting music when they were released
>

Inbox me your address and I'll send you a cookie.

>HTE is THE GANGSTARR album
>

TO YOU.

>when I want to hear GANGSTARR, I put HTE on
>

Read that sentence again and imagine someone else saying that but switching MOT for HTE. very possible huh?


>and MOT would be the 4th album I would consider listening to
>when I'm in a GANGSTARR mood
>

Like I told my boy Claw, that has a lot to do with preference. We are usually more tied to albums we grew up with which is why people on here are saying things like "you must not have been old enough to remember HTE" which is fine in theory but all that proves is that if you were a certain age when an album dropped then it is most likely closer to you sentimentally. People still aren't breaking down the actually quality of the music and are basing their opinions off of sentimental reasons.


>HTE resonates track for track
>

AGAIN, WITH YOU. I LOVE Hard To Earn but to me, from track to track, the production, the mixing, the scratching, the lyrics are not as good as Moment of Truth.


>the 2nd half of MOT, specifically after MOT...not so much
>

Some of the best joints are on the second half. NY Strait Talk, My Advice to You, Make Them Pay, Scandalous, In Memory Of… and since you stopped at the title track, throw in The Militia as well.



>was cuttin up a Method Man line for the chorus fresh in 98',
>No it wasn't
>

It was on that track because is sounded dope and that specific cut wasn't used yet.


>was gettin Jodeci to sing your hook fresh in 98', No it
>wasn't
>

It was for Gang Starr because they never went that route before and it also was for K-Ci and JoJo because they were always featured on more R&B sounding Hip-Hop production where as Royalty was still grimy Gang Starr.


>was gettin a Wu MC to cameo on your track fresh in 98', No it
>wasn't
>

It was for Gang Starr because they went outside of their camp and correct me if I'm wrong, this was Deck's first outside appearance which would then be followed by Tres Leches and Tru Master. People usually wanted Meth for the guest spots and then ODB or Raekwon. This came right after that Triumph verse and fit perfectly and it was nice to see them grab Deck as opposed to a different member.

So you see how these things can be looked at very differently? At the end of the day, the albums' quality shouldn't be based on if you feel something is fresh because of A, B, or C. Upon listening is the album dope as fuck? Or are you really telling me you listened to Above The Clouds and say "this would be dope if Deck wasn't on it? Because that's what you just faulted that track for which is bat shit insane if you ask me.

>the work they were doin outside of Gangstarr was fresh to me
>and that's why I felt like coming back together to put out MOT
>felt forced

*smh*

what's your point?

I'll go ahead and say it, but Royalty was not really that great to me. And as played out and juvenile as it sounds now, back then I might have copped to saying Gang Starr sold out using them cats to lace their hook.

Royalty eventually grew on me, but I felt like the song tried to pander to both sides of the fence (commercial/underground) without really hitting the mark.

When I think about the MoT album and the songs that stand out, songs like Work, You Know My Steez, and The Militia come to mind. Royalty just doesn't rank high in my book.

ESPECIALLY in New York. I mean there were so many rules and regulations I feel like it would have been stressful being a hip-hop listener. Was it this post someone said they bought Hard to Earn and Lethal Injection the same day and ended up taking Lethal Injection back to the store?! Why not keep it, that album is very, very good?


Just as a random example, if I were listening to We Got It 4 Cheap Vol. 2 complaining to myself about rapping over old RZA, Premier, Havoc and Timbaland beats saying "is that what's really hot in 2005?" man I would just quit. It's WAY more important to me how much fun I'm having listening to something than whether it's "hot" or "fresh" or whatever. I couldn't give ANY fucks if Method Man was cut up as a chorus at ANY point in hip-hop history; he's got a lot of dope one liners and a legendary delivery. In fact, maybe every hook should be a Method Man scratch. A lot of rappers could use 'em.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

as it was the formula for success becoming defined

in that time period 94-98' there were classic hip-hop albums

and they sold records

there was definitely some similarities in the songs that crossed over

and some of the older heads took notice and started to incorporate that into their sound

I'm not saying those songs weren't hot, I'm a fan

I'm saying it didn't stand out as much from everything else on the market at that time

I mean Deck's verse on MOT might be the hottest verse on the album

and Royalty is a good example

the other post about DWYCK being a club banger

yes, of course it was

but I don't think that was the intention of the record

after the success of DWYCK

it felt like Royalty was made with the intention of playing in the club, i.e. forced

>I mean Deck's verse on MOT might be the hottest verse on the
>album
>
>
>
>
>
>

That's pretty much my order too but I'd give daily operation a slight edge over step in the arena for personal reasons.

Daily Op
H2E
Ownerz/MOT

I usually don't include the 1st 2 cause they're so sonically different. (imo).

Like nobody talks about Juvenile Hell when folks talk Mobb Deep.

although 'Words That I Manifest' was more of an iconic single than anything on Juvenille Hell.

However Step Into The Arena was the foundation they'd end up building off, sonically different from Premier's 'trademark' sound of the mid-to-late 90s but still setting the tone for what was to come.

>Daily Op
>H2E
>Ownerz/MOT
>
>I usually don't include the 1st 2 cause they're so sonically
>different. (imo).
>
>Like nobody talks about Juvenile Hell when folks talk Mobb
>Deep.

>
>There wasn't much anticipation for MOT
>

I mean, that's just not true.

~Austin

Please donate.
For Anthony: http://bit.ly/xIIjaE
For Cris: http://bit.ly/whuzky

http://austintayeshus.blogspot.com

http://www.last.fm/user/Austintayeshus

http://twitter.com/Austintayeshus

from both guys

all the production work Premo was doing in that time

and all of the work, albums and features that Guru was doing

there was more than enough music on the market with a Gang Starr ingredient in it

that same time frame had some of the best albums Hip-Hop has seen

No matter what, when a legendary group goes on a hiatus and announces an album after a 4 year break...there is going to be anticipation.

and that's what I'm saying

they didn't go anywhere

if anything, they were more prevelant

look up the albums in that time period

Premo has production credits on ALOT of them

and Guru was putting out his own albums

Gang Starr fans had more than enough material

the way I remember it, it was more of a surprise

based off the assumption that both cats had become bigger outside of the group

Come on my man.

Puba went on a hiatus from BN and they both put out music but it was still anticipated to see Puba back in the group.

Outkast is on a hiatus and Big Boi released an album and mix tapes and Dre hops on remixes yet it is still anticipated to see another Kast album.

Edit...mix tapes...damn this iPad!

If you were a fan of them, then yes, there was quite a bit of related works to hold you over, but that was their longest ever gap between proper albums.

I mean, are we just counting everything Premier produced as a Gang Starr record now?

~Austin

i understand the argument for any album being better than the other, just cause honestly, when i dropped you felt everything that was done/said on the album and that hasn't been downgraded today...

i was listening to HTE yesterday as i went for a lil jog and i could see why people would pick it as GS' best...even though i'd still pick MOT.....i don't need to diss your opinion to validate mine.... in retrospect GS has a fantastic body of work....

Gang Starr has 3 great great albums to me and 2 very good albums and then 1 that is like demo material.

I can understand people listing either Daily Operation, Hard To Earn, or Moment of Truth as their favorite.

but for the sake of discussion I am will to say Moment of Truth is their best quality from start to finish.

possibly followed by step into the arena

then hard to earn

>.i don't need to diss your opinion to
>validate mine.... in retrospect GS has a fantastic body of
>work.

I like the thing they did with Jadakiss the best. That was the first one I heard so I played it a lot. I think I'll go and listen to the other things now because of this post. Thanks to you.

even. I just get a slightly more ME vibe off Hard to Earn.

1. Moment of Truth: 8.78
2. Hard to Earn: 8.73
3. Step in the Arena: 8.23
4. Daily Operation: 8.11

All three records are pretty damn equal on the songs alone, I just connected more strongly with one. I think Moment of Truth is a slighty more polished album and that does carry weight with me but, if I had to pick one, I'd recommend Hard to Earn to someone first.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

To be fair, Moment of Truth was my first Gang Starr albums and one of the first albums I copped period. I also got it when it came out, which makes a difference I think.

I was 10 when Hard to Earn came out and didn't hear it in its entirety until 2008.

even though "Dwyck" was officially stamped onto HARD TO EARN, I consider it part of DAILY OPERATION's collection of songs (the cassette copy I have actually has it included).

Besides that, "Take It Personal", "Soliloquy Of Chaos", "The Illest Brother", "The Place Where We Dwell"... I mean, that record had way too many ill cuts.

Both are great records.

those are my top two Gang Starr albums

Take it Personal is my favorite Gangstarr track

followed by "alongwaytogo" is some of the coldest hip hop ever recorded...i've been listening to gangstarr for over 20 years, and i can safely say this is my favorite gangstarr track EVER....MOT was a beast, but it had too many tracks...hard to earn all day!!

Aged wayyyy better. Hard to Earn sounds dated. Moment of Truth is a clinic on making a rap album. Primo's finest hour.

I got Hard to Earn and The Sun Rises in The East on CD and Illmatic on tape, all on the same day at a music shop's closing down sale, everything was half price. I was late to the sale and most of the hip hop section was already cleared out. Thankfully they'd left a couple good ones for me. And from that point onward I've been a hip hop freak

I’d rather sojourn into self till I reached the epitome of spiritual splendor
Haters fender bender beat down and ostracize the dreamer
But its more than dreams when the inner light is revealed through the cracks of façade-strum the emotions on guitars~ste

Thats what he said. i mean she said.

Mainly because Betrayal. Face and Guru put it down on that track. Above the Clouds is also a favorite.

Peace

Wendell

in fact Deck said he followed Guru's lead on that song and that his verse was written before he got to the studio

Maybe it's because the "formula" is used on EVERY track.

The beats are good, the rhymes are good, but it's just not the album I go to when I want to lsiten to Gangstarr.

I was playing HTE last night in the car.