I have seen it mentioned on here a few times, but never really saw a debate on it.

I feel that the connotation of the word "dated" can throw some folks off, and many people here seem to take offense when it's used. I feel that a song from 1986 can sound "dated" as in the elements, arrangement, vocals, synths, etc just sound like it was made for that era, and that it probably sounded brand new then....while another song from 86 may still sound modern and translatable throughout eras.

I would also say that most music that is dated has a lesser chance of being enjoyed by younger fans, or even older fans, that weren't into that style of music when it was in it's prime.

How do you feel? Is it wrong to knock a song/artist/album because it sounds dated, whether or not you were into it when it came out?

Give some examples of songs that you feel are dated and not as "timeless"...even if it's newer songs.

As a lover of music from all eras, I like bugging out on those stripped-down samples, the sometimes-simple rhyme schemes, heavy-handed scratches by the DJs, etc. I like the James Brown 2-bar loops.

But the RAWNESS of the music has quite a bit to do with my appreciation. They were doing the best they could with what they had. For some reason, that stays in the back of my mind even though I would pit a LOT of it against rap from all eras. Rakim WAS that good...not just "good for his time." But knowing the context is a really nice bonus.

Meanwhile, my fiancee likes to remind me about how "simple" a lot of that shit sounds to her. She likes a ton of 90's/00's rap, and she said it's because the samples are more melodic. There's just more going on. Considering she's not a hardcore hip-hop head like most of us (on OKP), that rationale sounds perfectly acceptable to me.

In any case, I know that a good portion of the 80's R&B/rap that I bump would seem "dated" to the casual music fan, but that hasn't stopped me from playing it at home AND at parties.

Although the rap itself evolved a LOT every single year, I find myself liking the mid-80's production a LOT more than the late 80's.

Those bare drum beats with hard ass patterns, sometimes with no instruments or samples, were a lot better, and in a way, don't sound as "dated" because you can sample some of those songs or even rap to them as is and it'll sound modern.

Sucka MC's, I ain't no joke, Peter piper, Boyz n da hood, Five minutes of funk....I can get into that a lot more than the Bomb Squad sound, and even more than songs I enjoy like Rampage, Straight outta Compton, and Raw.

and the mainstream young kids think its new.

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

>
>Sucka MC's, I ain't no joke, Peter piper, Boyz n da hood, Five
>minutes of funk....I can get into that a lot more than the
>Bomb Squad sound, and even more than songs I enjoy like
>Rampage, Straight outta Compton, and Raw.
>


I mean it's pretty shocking these days when you see a track with three or four samples, let alone the 7-20 (lol) producers were slapping together from 89-92. If more and more producers had been given a chance to learn that style and challenge themselves with it who knows how used to it we'd be. Instead it's so confined to one or two crews it's hard to think of that sound collage style as anything other than a sign o' the times.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

and I remember thinking to myself "wow - I'll never be able to put this as well as I just did ever again. I should start a thread about it" but I never did. And now I'm pissed cause I'll never remember what thread I wrote my shit in.

I just searched cause I think it was in one of those "top albums of the decade" posts but I can't search for shit on this site so nevermind.

But anyway. IMO, "dated" ain't a bad thing, at all. Music that sounds like the time it came out brings me right back to where I was when I was banging the shit daily. An album like Stillmatic comes to mind. It certainly has a very early 2000s sound to it, but I can still listen to it now and it still fucking bangs. I just don't think "dated" needs to have a negative connotation, necessarily. It can be a good thing too.

Like someone said in the other post, "stale" is a better way to describe music that doesn't sound good anymore because of it's age or specific sound or whatever.

Shit I wish I could find my other post. I'm doing a miserable job explaining it the want I want to and did previously.

one of the best things ever. Like when I hear a new song that sounds EXACTLY like a 94 G-Funk song, or even some random G-Funk songs from that era, I get HYPE from it. Same with some New Jack Swing tracks, like how Phonte did that "I wanna do ya" imitation of Keith Sweat and Aaron Hall...I enjoyed that more than most real songs that were new at the time.

I also feel that every era, well almost every era, had certain elements that were best at that time, or that were great at that time. So Mid 80's Rap - Drums. New Jack Swing - Chord changes, choruses. Crunk era - Energy. G-Funk - Basslines. Timbaland era - Drum patterns. Etc etc. etc....so with that, even most "dated" music has some redeemable quality if it was good/great at the time. But some of it just sounds like "how and why did I like that????" and that's what you probably mean with "Stale."

And naturally I agree with you about g-funk. My favorite era in hip-hop, we've been over this.

doesn't take away from the enjoyment for me.

If anything for Hip-Hop when I'm in the right mood it's more of a positive. Most other times it's just another aspect of the music, w/o adding or taking away from the enjoyment.

I've never understood the whole /this sounds old why are you listening to it/ hang up that a lot of young people have.

What does age have to do with enjoying music?
And I think that's what separates people who are serious listeners from the casual everyday people.

If the music is good, it's good, and will continue to be good.

Music can become stale to me though, as College Dropout has. I really don't know how to articulate it. Maybe College Dropout just wasn't that good in the first place, I don't think that's true though because I really enjoyed it when I was younger. Maybe I outgrew it. Idk.

But when I play Through The Wire, Family Business, Breathe In Breathe Out; basically anything on College Dropout outside of Two Words, Spaceship, and Last Call.

I just go BLAH!

I listen to Run-DMC/Audio-Two/EPMD/Beastie Boys/PE wishing I was there + loving the music, age doesn't take away from those classic golden-era albums. It adds Mythos.

There is/was stuff outside of Hip-Hop that really is/was difficult for me to get into whether or not it's because it "sounds old" I don't know. The easiest cop out for not "getting it" at first would probably be because it sounds old I just think that some stuff is difficult to digest. Like the first time I heard some Thelonius Monk/Bob Dylan.

from before their time unless it's MJ or a few Prince songs. And even with some music that they enjoyed at one point, some of them only want to hear it in certain atmospheres. It does seem to separate the serious listeners, for sure.

>Music can become stale to me though, as College Dropout has. I
>really don't know how to articulate it. Maybe College Dropout
>just wasn't that good in the first place, I don't think that's
>true though because I really enjoyed it when I was younger.
>Maybe I outgrew it. Idk.
>
>But when I play Through The Wire, Family Business, Breathe In
>Breathe Out; basically anything on College Dropout outside of
>Two Words, Spaceship, and Last Call.
>
>I just go BLAH!
>
>I listen to Run-DMC/Audio-Two/EPMD/Beastie Boys/PE wishing I
>was there + loving the music, age doesn't take away from those
>classic golden-era albums. It adds Mythos.

For me, the album that went from "Instant classic!" to "this sounds dated and blah to me now" the most has to be "It's dark and hell is hot"...and then maybe "Ghetto D." And both of these are from 1998, when I think a lot of Rap and especially R&B ONLY sounded good when it was new...unlike 93-94, where damn near all of it sounds just as good now.

>There is/was stuff outside of Hip-Hop that really is/was
>difficult for me to get into whether or not it's because it
>"sounds old" I don't know. The easiest cop out for not
>"getting it" at first would probably be because it sounds old
>I just think that some stuff is difficult to digest. Like the
>first time I heard some Thelonius Monk/Bob Dylan.

Even with a lot of the 60's Coltrane and Miles that my dad loves, it just doesn't hit me like I wish it did. I can get into some of it, but not like it does to him...while there is some 70's and early 80's Jazz that has a completely different effect to me.

>
>For me, the album that went from "Instant classic!" to "this
>sounds dated and blah to me now" the most has to be "It's dark
>and hell is hot"...and then maybe "Ghetto D." And both of
>these are from 1998, when I think a lot of Rap and especially
>R&B ONLY sounded good when it was new...unlike 93-94, where
>damn near all of it sounds just as good now.
>

but, it sounded awful then. I wasn't very in tune to southern rap at the time so I just fucking tuned out besides singles on the radio, I was so done with rap before The Blueprint came out. And I was like 10 LOL. I thought the game was over.



~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

I think people have varying definitions of the term "dated", though.

To the above posters, "dated" just seems to mean "representative of the times and/or current when it came out." This definition has a neutral to positive connotation.

To others, "dated" is like some old, rotten-ass milk.. 3 or 4 weeks after the printed expiration date on the carton. It is old, spoiled, AND no longer of any good use. An often used antonym to this version of the term "dated" would be "timeless" or "classic."

To me, "Illmatic" is timeless and classic but never "dated."

To me, "dated" is Bobby Brown ruining a perfectly dope soundtrack song by referencing "The Ghostbusters" and "Vigo." It's still a good and fun song, but the timelessness and universality of it gets overshadowed by the specificity of the movie title and the plot of said film.

Somebody mentioned Rakim. His classic cuts are timeless, but those Eric B scratch songs definitely have a "dated" sound to them. They just do.

be.

The "Rotten ass milk" to me is more outdated. So if somebody came out with a R&B song today that sounded just like "Sittin on top of the world" that would sound outdated. But hearing a song from that year would be "dated" because it has all the same elements that were typical of that time period.

>To me, "Illmatic" is timeless and classic but never "dated."
>
>
>To me, "dated" is Bobby Brown ruining a perfectly dope
>soundtrack song by referencing "The Ghostbusters" and "Vigo."
>It's still a good and fun song, but the timelessness and
>universality of it gets overshadowed by the specificity of the
>movie title and the plot of said film.

I always say that Doggystyle doesn't sound dated, but the album fillers on the 2nd half of Chronic like "High Powered" sound dated to me. And it is probably because I started listening RIGHT before Doggystyle, and never even heard those Chronic songs til like 4-5 years later. But even on Doggystyle, if somebody said "To all my" sounded dated, I wouldn't be mad.

>Somebody mentioned Rakim. His classic cuts are timeless, but
>those Eric B scratch songs definitely have a "dated" sound to
>them. They just do.

Man, those Eric B songs SUCK, LOL.

In fact, I almost don't like it being used as either a compliment or negative critique. Because something can sound dated and still be really good. Vice versa, it can not sound dated and be terrible.

In my opinion, the production techniques of the day should not define the quality of the performance.

~Austin

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too dated for me to personally get into...or either I'll understand some other music being too dated for someone younger or who's not a music head to get into.

Except, why don't people say the Beatles are dated?

Even though some of their recordings are so mid-60's sounding, it's almost laughable.

But you know why people don't say that about them?

Because the performances and the material are memorable.

But even I'm guilty of accusing stuff of being "too 90's" for me to get into.

~Austin

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With MJ...I feel that one of 100 reasons he's a SUPER major legend is that even with the dancing, him starting as a kid, him having great presence, etc....is that a LOT of his music was really that great. So for the Disco era...people who were born after it ended (like me) can still enjoy his songs more than a lot of other artists' music because it was just that good.

So for the Beatles, it's the same. I don't like much Rock from any era, but they have some songs that I just can't deny, possibly because the elements of what made it good crossed the boundaries of what usually only appealed to Rock fans. And that's part of it too...having a sound that isn't confined within the Genre's limitations, or even within that era's limitations. This is a gamble, but when it pays off, it pays off WELL.

Same with a song like "Doin da butt"...most regular people don't even know that it's a Go-Go song, and you can even argue that they got lucky enough to make a song that was just THAT dope. But melody wise and "funk" wise, it's stronger than most Go-Go, even from that era...the hook was stronger than all other Go-Go...the chants and everything else on it just made it that great. So yea, I feel that the standout songs from each Genre + era were able to appeal to everyone because of those types of things.

Late 70s roots reggae, early 90s west coast hip hop, 50s and 60s jazz, 70s punk, 80s metal, and lots more besides. It transports me to a particular time and/or place. Often the production techniques and instruments they use are specifically pleasing to the ear in a way that more modern music seldom is.

When someone uses "dated" as a critique without any kind of nuance or explanations involved, I usually tend to dismiss most of the rest of what they have to say as probably not all that worth my time. Or to put it more kindly: listening to only the newest shit is a young man's game, and I'm fine with not being that young any more.

I also don't buy the false distinctions made so often between "timeless" and "dated" music. That separation is very much in the ear of the specific listener, and it's so era-dependent. Something that sounds dated now may come across as "timeless" in another ten years if music trends swing a different way, and something that seems timeless today might suddenly sound extremely dated down the road. People have such a hard time seeing things from a perspective other than their own, current, limited one - or even understanding that other perspectives can or will exist, now or in the future.

>I also don't buy the false distinctions made so often between
>"timeless" and "dated" music. That separation is very much in
>the ear of the specific listener, and it's so era-dependent.
>Something that sounds dated now may come across as "timeless"
>in another ten years if music trends swing a different way,
>and something that seems timeless today might suddenly sound
>extremely dated down the road. People have such a hard time
>seeing things from a perspective other than their own,
>current, limited one - or even understanding that other
>perspectives can or will exist, now or in the future.

Timeless is such a nonsense term to me and I don't even like when people say that they aspire to sound "timeless". I've said this many times but the best way to become objectively "timeless" is probably to sound as much of the times as possible. Why would anyone want to check out a rockabilly-band from the 80's? I think people are more likely to go to the source for that stuff and instead dig the 80's stuff that sounds "80's". Of course, people will miss out on some good music but I still believe your'e better off checking for the music that was done when the style was "fresh"; retro-acts rarely improve the blueprint...

EDIT:I like a lot of current retro-music though but ten years down the line, I'm fairly sure I'll stick to the originals. I don't listen to much retro-music after the fact...

can aim to sound "timeless" but it's still a complete crap shoot.

Every decade and era has a different definition of what the "timeless" music sounds like, and what the completely dated "you had to be there" music sounds like. Problem is, when you're in an era, you can't really tell.

I feel that the super trendy sounding music that comes out will NEVER be seen as timeless, at least in this era, but I really can't tell you what will be. For R&B, I've always felt that live instruments help a lot of songs sound timeless, verses anything that's too synthy...although much of the Minnesota sound (Prince, Mint) was synthy as hell. But like a Beyonce "Video phone" type of song just screamed "trendy, only gonna be hot for today" while the vocal arrangement and changes on "Love on top" feel like that might be our favorite song from her in ten years.

...is that the sounds change(d) so fast whereas a guitar or a piano still sound like a guitar or piano (well, there's a lot of effects and stuff you can put on it but that's technology too). However4, I think many supertrendy sounds can date pretty well. For example, Prince's "1999" album was very trendy soundwise and it sounds good today I think (it sounded pretty lame in the early 90's though IMO but that's because the 80's just went overboard with it after a while so you needed a break from that type of technology IMO in order to appreciate it again)-I don't think there's any rule for how you can tell if it will come back or not. Maybe the Shekspere sound you hate will come back too you know?

A lot of people say that good songwriting survives but I don't really buy that because songwriting actually change a lot too. I remember that the damaja used to say that songwriter Burt Bacharach's many hits in the 60's (think Dionne Warwick) could become hits today again in more modern arrangements but I don't think so; many old melodies-regardless of how good and catchy they are-just sound old fashioned in their rhythm, intervals etc.. Hits in major scales for examples are much rarer today than in the 80's...

>For example, Prince's "1999" album was very
>trendy soundwise and it sounds good today I think (it sounded
>pretty lame in the early 90's though IMO but that's because
>the 80's just went overboard with it after a while so you
>needed a break from that type of technology IMO in order to
>appreciate it again)-I don't think there's any rule for how
>you can tell if it will come back or not. Maybe the Shekspere
>sound you hate will come back too you know?
>

What sounds "good" or "cool" is so partial to what current trends define.

So, who knows, maybe in another five years, 1999's era-defining sound will be deemed the antithesis of hip.

But does that album's sound date it to the early 80's? Absolutely —and whether or not it's a "cool" sound to have.

~Austin

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Does 1999 sound "trendy" as in "it sounded like everything else out at the time" or more groundbreaking and "damn, I've never heard anything like this?"

I think those can both describe "trendy." So the first Guy album was trendy in that 2nd way, because it was fresh and groundbreaking. Same with Illmatic, Dre 2001, 400 Degreez, Thriller (Billie Jean, Wanna be starting something), Chronic (even more than Doggystyle)...even So far gone. While I'd say that the "sounds like everything else out" title would go to music that was made to imitate those albums.

So from there, it's hard to predict what music will end up being seen as "timeless" or still good in the future. And this also leads to another thing. One album may introduce a certain style, but then another album may come out and improve on it and end up becoming the staple or landmark album that folks enjoy in later decades.

With songwriting, I do think it's a lot different. I have noted a few times that Ballads are a thing of the 80's and 90's, and radio won't even play a Ballad nowadays. And I do think some things come in circles...when a throwback sound first appears, you say "this sounds like it's from the 80's" but six months later, you say "this is what 2012 music sounds like!"

And BTW, I hope the She'kspear shit NEEEEEEEEEEEEEVER comes back!! Ever ever!!! LOL

...is IMO that the copycats don't necessarily get it. It may work at the time because that's the sound people want to hear but ten years later or so, it sounds fake or contrived many times. When someone "creates" a sound, he does it with *his* (or his protege or whatever if it's a producer) strengths, weaknesses etc. in mind and to maximize the potential. However, that may not work as well for another artist because he have other strengths, weaknesses etc. that aren't necessarily compatible with this sound... Of course, this is hard to prove, it may be subconscious so you think it sounds better just because you know it comes from the originator. However, I often think you can hear it as well even if it's hard to explain in words. Especially when older artists who were already established in another style tries something, it can even get embarassing at times...

EDIT:Or replace his with her, girls can of course come up with things too; sorry for the sexism, LOL

on what somebody else brings in, and then it also goes in circles...Producer A makes something new and fresh, B comes and imitates and puts a twist but it's not as good, then producer C comes and modifies that and makes it just as good or even better than producer A did.

Of course, this is
>hard to prove, it may be subconscious so you think it sounds
>better just because you know it comes from the originator.
>However, I often think you can hear it as well even if it's
>hard to explain in words. Especially when older artists who
>were already established in another style tries something, it
>can even get embarassing at times...

That's when a LOT of producers end up falling off, and falling off hard. Such as how Jermaine Dupri borrowed Scott Storch's style during that Mariah Carey "It's like that" era. It wasn't bad, but it was blatant that he was using his style. I feel that JD was dope at modifying the G-Funk in the 90's though...might even say he's an example of "Producer C" in my paragraph above.

timeless in a lot of cases.

>I also don't buy the false distinctions made so often between
>"timeless" and "dated" music. That separation is very much in
>the ear of the specific listener, and it's so era-dependent.
>Something that sounds dated now may come across as "timeless"
>in another ten years if music trends swing a different way,
>and something that seems timeless today might suddenly sound
>extremely dated down the road. People have such a hard time
>seeing things from a perspective other than their own,
>current, limited one - or even understanding that other
>perspectives can or will exist, now or in the future.

One major thing I feel is that for 80's Rap and R&B, the music that's been sampled the most is the most timeless, because it had something in the drum sounds, melody, drum pattern, or whatever else, that has appealed to folks who weren't there to enjoy it. So all the 80's Rap songs I mentioned above, plus those like Top billin, Paul revere, etc...and for R&B, Make it last forever, Computer love, Between the sheets, Sexual healing....I feel those are timeless, not because they show them on Time Life compilations or Best of lists, but because those songs just had something (or everything) that still sound just as good today, and always have.

With NJS, I feel that most of that sounds dated, and proof is that Poison, then maybe MotownPhilly, Remember the time, Night and day, and a few others are really enjoyed by people who weren't part of that era.

In a way, most of the classic songs that come from each era are timeless, but you can't really judge it until years and years down the road. Many of the biggest hits at the time end up sounding dated even 2-3 years later, although some will come back and end up having a sound that's recycled later on.

and you want to be able to respect and appreciate a particular song or record and not think its sounding like a product of its time and the song lacks something

if the songs weren't really much then it only makes them sound even more corny after you go back and that is why certain things i hear now after use to listening ain't held up because the songwriting and depth wasn't there.

as for Hip Hop well a classic song is going to sound good because there will always be somebody to acknowledge it, but alot of things are for the moment and it shows.

When someone says a song sounds dated, to me that just means it sounds like it was made or recorded during an older era of it's genre.

Some people don't care for music from certain eras of rap or rock but that's how it is, what gets me is when some artists make new music and it sounds like they pulled a song that wasn't that good out their vaults instead of imitating an old style.

Just b/c an LP or song sounds "dated" doesnt mean its not still good. It might have just failed at transitioning to a new era. The music could still be very good to listen to but lacking a modern feel. Example: James Brown song "Try Me" sounds like it was released back when it was but its a GREAT song.

peace

I understand what people mean when they use them, I just don't agree or personally use the terms differently.

As far as dated is concerned and when it's used as negative descriptor, I don't have a problem with something sounding like the time it's from OR something new sounding like a past era. If it's good, it's good.

And as far as timeless, someone like MJ is timeless in the sense that his music was just THAT GOOD that people will always like it, but it still sounds like a past era to me. Nothing from "Thriller" sounds like it could have dropped last year or even last decade.

Same w/ Stevie or The Beatles or whoever, it all sounds like music that came out 30-40 year ago.......because it is lol.


__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

but if it just sounds like some old shit, no.

I mean if a rapper came out with an album that sounded like Walking Like a Panther or King of Rock I think we'd have a real problem, lol. But I don't think it's exactly fair to blame the shit for sounding off if it came from that era. I mean, personally I hate those two albums but I think their subject matter was stale. I really enjoy both artists' albums that came before and after those two.

The fad thing is harder to pinpoint because it's hard to know what trends are just meant for their time and which are open for recycling down the road. I think I'd say though that if a New Jack group came out in 2012 it wouldn't feel right. A band that wanted to do the grunge thing would probably have to expand their portfolio a little, too (Dinosaur Jr./Malkmus style).

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook