Plenty of skilled mc's can't make a song to save their lives.
Others just don't have a good ear for beats.
A handful of mc's get better with age.

Most however, stay @ their same lyrical level.

Can you think of a rapper that was nice and then his lyrics went to garbation?

one
k. orr

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

whoa.

yep. not HIS production but his choice in prod imo

today he's just better than your average. His best verses still coming from his first two releases.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

Madness....check the track "Evolve" off his newest ish...slickness...

Yeah, he came off real nice on that track.

'nice'

I rest my case.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

Whatever you're smokin', please get off of it when listening to Pharoahe Monch aight .

but they ain't on OK levels. I mean it's that simple. And why you ask? Because he hasn't had an MC like Po to push him that hard lyrically sense. He got all lovey dovey on the mic (not just talking singing here) that his beast mode by comparison is just so light its laughable. Of course it's still better than your average but it's not better than his best or even on par.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

>Because he hasn't had an MC like Prince Po
>to push him that hard lyrically sense.

At first I thought it wouldn't effect him at all especially after he recorded "Internal Affairs" it seemed like he was doing fine but a few years later it started to show.

>Of course it's still better than your average but
>it's not better than his best or even on par.

Yeah I've noticed that after he dropped from the scene when he left Rawkus and a lot of rappers who aren't even lyrical started to get attention while the "rapper's rapper" went back underground, so I guess he felt no reason to try to be so wordy and amazing just nice.

go listen to that desire album again....

smh...


>
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>Mo'Nium - http://monium.tumblr.com/
>
>"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

Let's be real, there was a "show-off" aspect to the first two OK albums and modern rap listeners in general don't really care too much about that stuff. I think he purposedly toned down the "virtuosity" aspect a little which IMO is a shame but I don't think it's regressing really. It's a bit similar to a rock-guitarist like Ritchie Blackmore who was shredding his ass off on "Deep Purple In rock" but started to go more "soulful" or minimal in his solos after that which also was a shame because SOME guys are at their best/most exciting when they are wanky.

In other words at this point I don't think he can go back. Yeah he can play it off as still trying to appeal... but can he go back. I'm doubtful. He hasn't done so in 10+ years.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

the best song rappin' wise is "6 Foot, 7 Foot" and wasn't that older than the rest of the material on that album?

it's like he's content to rap like Young Money Drake

but this is TRUTH

People were telling these guys that they were too advanced, and unfortunately they believed it.

.

i'd like to see somebody flesh that out.

He's not *bad*, just doesn't ever wow me anymore. Used to quite often.

...definitly...

after then, he was comfortable

lyrical performance since his debut. you could tell he was really in the zone. No Hook? American Dreamin?


i'd say most of his guest spots and Bp3 were pretty average, but i think he did have a few moments (esp New Day) on WTT taht makes me believe he's still got something left in the tank.

since that's his best album ever since that one...

going from that to BP3 was such a disappointment. I'll review, cause Jay had some real shit on that record. Production and lyrics were on point. Wish he hadn't added that "Imus" shit to the end of "Ignorant Shit" though.

>Wish he hadn't added that "Imus" shit to
>the end of "Ignorant Shit" though.

Blacken my heart by puttin' light liquor in the liver...

Did he ever end up using that "They say they love it when I'm hard on hoes, said a G don't give a bitch no keys or security codes" on anything else instead?

I've never heard it...

check this version of AG... it's a compilation of the 'best of' remix albums that people did. mostly veterano. but the production is WAAAY better, imo. i actually never listen to the OG album.


http://www.filesonic.com/file/Xz1Skk8/American_Gangster.rar

compared to now, the problem is, his high points (as a rapper) aren't often highlighted. He figured out how to be a "personality rapper".

college drop-in sounded like a producer that had good things to say but the delivery wasn't there yet.

now he's got both.

smh

Dude was spitting fire on Dogg Food. Then in the 2000's, dude got really wack lyrically.

Not only on Dogg Food but he spit FLAMES up until, like, 1999, then like you said for some reason just started spitting complete, rambling garbage. He was basically rhyming the same 3 words over and over for like a solid 5 or 6 years.

He's had a little bit of a late career resurgence though, to be fair. His work on the DJ Quik collab album, Murs/9th's last album, and some of the random stuff I've heard him on in the last 2 or 3 years (that Pete Rock produced track comes to mind) have been pretty damn good and somewhat back to form. Still not as lethal and dominating as he once was, though.

He was literally the best doing it in the mid to late 90s IMO.

He came quite terrible on that shit.

on Streetz Iz A Mutha TOO

That was the last time for a while tho, up until like 2006 or 2007.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_t6cHrPNDI

i feel like he still has good verses here and there though.

His drop off is legendary to me. How he's still gettin on shit baffles me. He fuckin ruined the album he did with Quik a few years back called Blaqkout. Shit was fuckin BANGIN too and Quik came w it on the mic but Kurupt sounded like he was fuckin runnin on E like a mfkr on this shit. I jsut felt bad for the dude.

...no doubt...cat been WACK for years now...

feels bad for actually saying it. like we know and due but to that 87-95 run, we pretend the last 15-17 years havent been damn near horrid... it makes no logical sense

waits for the ____ album wasn't that bad response

>feels bad for actually saying it. like we know and due but to
>that 87-95 run, we pretend the last 15-17 years havent been
>damn near horrid... it makes no logical sense
>
>waits for the ____ album wasn't that bad response

Cube should really be getting the Nas treatment, but doesn't

Cube in the late '90s/early '00s was PAINFUL.

"You can do it, put your ASS INTO IT"?! Naw.

but than again the Nas treatment is WAY over-stated

I think the last record of his I listen to is War and Peace. If the beats knocking and the subject is cool, it's a decent song.

If either one is off, it's unlistenable.

I didn't enjoy it very much. but I also think this perspective/experience is what influences our ideas/opinion of who has and hasn't fallen off. it goes back to your post about Souls, Del and the Pharcyde where you asked folks about the post-classic releases... we as listeners/fans tend to abandon artist after one "flop" (flop no in terms of money, but our own critical admiration or what not. how can we really say so and so fell off when they've released material and we choose to ignore it.

interestingly enough with NAS not matter what he does, we ALWAYS check for it because of his ability to pull a "Nasty" out his ass EVERY record, and it proves he's still great lyrically.

>I didn't enjoy it very much. but I also think this
>perspective/experience is what influences our ideas/opinion of
>who has and hasn't fallen off. it goes back to your post about
>Souls, Del and the Pharcyde where you asked folks about the
>post-classic releases... we as listeners/fans tend to abandon
>artist after one "flop"

(flop no in terms of money, but our
>own critical admiration or what not. how can we really say so
>and so fell off when they've released material and we choose
>to ignore it.

^^This is a great point. Probably deserving a post of its own.
I feel guilty about this in terms of a lot of artists, Krs-1 comes to mind immediately.

>interestingly enough with NAS not matter what he does, we
>ALWAYS check for it because of his ability to pull a "Nasty"
>out his ass EVERY record, and it proves he's still great
>lyrically.

I don't want to go down this road, but I agree, he always has the potential to do some epic shit, much like Ras and Eminem. In my opinion, he often does not, either by poor topic selection, but more often from poor beat selection.

one
k. orr

And just cried. No.....seriously. This dude had the world in his HANDS. Rap bowed to this muthafucka and messed their pants when he got with bombsquad and this dude went APESHIT after Death Certificate. I was like....."the fuck is you doing?"


My cousin is the type to bang anything if others are brainwashed to believe they dope but I knew then we had seen the last of Cube.

Even with Wayne, he might have regressed since 08, but 08 vs. him in 99????? No comparison at all.

But yeah, only a few have actually gotten better. I won't say Busta has got better, but he damn sure adjusted and adapted through the times and is still a force, even though his solo music isn't as good.

Saukrates in that he went from a fairly dope rapper to a guy who sings bad auto-tuned choruses for Redman.

but the last album i heard he was still rapping good even if their songs weren't that great.

.....

Common wins this post...and yes to Canibus as well...

~Austin

I think he's kind of found out how to live with it, but every now and then, he'll do something like he does on "Raw (How You Like It)", where the overexaggerations don't match the music underneath... like he's a dude marching forward with no one following him.

I'm just glad he hasn't done shit where he tries to rap like rappers that are out now.

>I'm just glad he hasn't done shit where he tries to rap like
>rappers that are out now.

I also think he still has it to a certain degree, like "Gold" he kilt, but he's just not as consistently prolific as he once was.

hunger diminishes.

human nature.

Broke underground heads usually have a longer shelf life. They usually fall off due to discouragement though.

And this ain't about commercial success or relevance

Lyrically? He's never fallen off with the lyrics.

He's never gotten better, but in terms of how he constructs his rhymes, he's never fallen lyrically. And this isn't to say that he can't make a bad song, choose a bad beat, or talk about some bullshit.

One of the keys to understanding an mc is realizing that he has a bunch of different jobs
- he has to come up with good song concepts and subjects
- he has to pick good beats - 1) that the crowd likes, 2) that he sounds good on
- has to come up with good hooks
- has to flow well
- and a lot of the good is based on context

And on top of that, the rhymes have to be tight. The syllables per line have to be right, the rhyme schemes themselves have to be interesting, the stresses on different parts of the lines have to be done well and sometimes have to emphasized and not emphasized...

There's a whole lot to being a good mc, just like there's a whole lot to making a good song.

And although this maybe a little tough to think about, as few folks here really want to think about hip hop, no one wants to break a sweat at all even, you can have good lyrical skills/good rhymes be a constant even in bad songs.

I get it that this concept of having well constructed lyrics might be some multi-variable calculus for y'all, but if you step away from the idea that skills in anyway equates to success or relevance, you can really start to appreciate hip hop on a higher level.

>but if you
>step away from the idea that skills in anyway equates to
>success or relevance, you can really start to appreciate hip
>hop on a higher level.

Never. Lord knows I've tried but success is now the default in hip-hop, because it has become (apparently *eyeroll*) so accessible. When you listen to hip-hop for vicarious fantasies, in depth analysis gets in the way.

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

under-value or outright detest girl/woman/sex songs by rappers, which IMO, is a great marker of how vesitle and skilled a rapper is

and i'll show you a rapper who isn't dope.
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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

?

.

but I fail to see how all that changes my original point.

Motivation is what drives alladat. It's what causes them to experiment with new rhymes schemes, topics, wordplay, copy/study successful songwriting, etc. Money curbs motivation. I am not necessarily talking about pandering to the lowest dom for sales, although that is apart of it. I am saying that, for the most part, rappers rap because either they don't want a 9-5, they want the lifestyle, families to provide for, or they want women. Very rarely for the art (these days). Those are the core motivational factors that drive rappers.

It is my belief underground rappers (Pigeon John, Murs, KRS,CunninLynguists, etc.) rap for art. In turn, they tend not to be as monetarily successful. They usually stay on point for longer because that cup cannot runnth over...they are driven by divine purpose. They do, however, fall off eventually because they are human. It is often because they grow out of that particular method of creative expression or they become frustrated by shit rappers farting in their cornflakes © O_E

Like I said a while back. NO rappers is the same rapper he was 15 years ago. Just as NO athlete is the same athlete he/she was 15 years ago. Business or Science are about the only fields that stimulate the human brain for 20+ years.

>but I fail to see how all that changes my original point.

You said money makes people fall off.

Pretty much spelt it out for you with the Nas example.

Nas of 2008 had much more money than Nas of 94

Despite the god awful albums, there was not a drop off in LYRICAL skills.

If you can't draw the obvious conclusions, I don't know what to tell you. There's literally nothing I can say to make you understand how bullshit your argument is.

Skillz != good songs/albums =! commercial success

Skillz = Skillz, period. You can fall off skill wize and still make good albums, or still have commercial success...or not.

The fact that most lessonites can't even begin to contemplate some very *basic* shit like this, is why we can't ever have any good conversations about hip hop anymore.

one
k. orr

.

When the 2nd lp dropped, i was like...yo this dude was tight and is now garbage....only to hear his later works.

We should do an indepth post on Jeru.

It's like the *how* didn't matter compared to the *what*; very awkward with lines/words that didn't fit the beat or flow or rhyme... The beats save the album. His best flow IMO was on the Gang Starr-songs that preceded his own career and the funny thing is that those verses lacked a message...

...was just listening to his jump off recently, duke was beastin...also "Dare Is a Darkside" Redman was nasty with it...nowadays, can't call it..

its the production. he's still spitting his ass off

he and meth were rapping their asses off, unfortunately the production was so-so

i would say the Sheek Louch-isms started on Pretty Tony album

he was still beasting on Bulletproof Wallets

"supreme clientele"'s lyrics made him switch it up.

>Plenty of skilled mc's can't make a song to save their
>lives.
>Others just don't have a good ear for beats.
>A handful of mc's get better with age.
>
>Most however, stay @ their same lyrical level.
>
>Can you think of a rapper that was nice and then his lyrics
>went to garbation?
>
>one
>k. orr

you would think that with all these "Flow-Riders" in here, people would realize how dope he really is.

he went from

the kid aint got no priors
so when i put the heat to your head I aint talkin bout blow dryers

to

Im you idol, the highest title, numero uno
Im not that little pregnant white girl, but juno

and "somebody better tell em that we in this bitch like an unborn baby"

>Im you idol, the highest title, numero uno
>Im not that little pregnant white girl, but juno
>
>and "somebody better tell em that we in this bitch like an
>unborn baby"

common
jay
snoop
luda

lurkin since 1999. werd.

Both declined on BR&L & TLM (Phife was especially cringeworthy.) Q-Tip's flow was choppy & sloppy for years until he improved on his comeback album.

Posdnuos - stiff & sounds like he's reading off paper.

Cosign on OC, Ras Kass, etc. (OC is the worst live performer ever, btw.)

Method Man, but I think it's mostly because he's somewhat incapable of sounding good on a non-RZA beat.

I'd say Kweli, but he's always had cringeworthy moments.

I hurts my heart to watch the man who made two of my favorite hip hop records murder the memory of so many songs live. After all this time somebody ANYBODY should tell him that he should learn how to do a proper show.

He more emotion I

*holds mic to crowd*

The harder

*holds mic to crowd*

>Both declined on BR&L & TLM (Phife was especially
>cringeworthy.) Q-Tip's flow was choppy & sloppy for years
>until he improved on his comeback album.
>

Phife was disinterested and it showed, but Tip put in an all-world performance on that album


>Posdnuos - stiff & sounds like he's reading off paper.
>

NIGGA


>Cosign on OC, Ras Kass, etc. (OC is the worst live performer
>ever, btw.)
>

never seen him live but I haven't heard much good about him


>Method Man, but I think it's mostly because he's somewhat
>incapable of sounding good on a non-RZA beat.
>

he goes in on grimy shit, the pretty beats no so much


>I'd say Kweli, but he's always had cringeworthy moments.

its been amped now that he's doing the little whiny emphasis thing with his words

>>Posdnuos - stiff & sounds like he's reading off paper.
>>
>
>NIGGA

Co-sign. I don't think he ever fell off at all. Honestly I think I'm MORE interested in his later verses, which is saying a lot.


>>I'd say Kweli, but he's always had cringeworthy moments.
>
>its been amped now that he's doing the little whiny emphasis
>thing with his words

I agree, I still think he has his shining moments tho.

>
>Method Man, but I think it's mostly because he's somewhat
>incapable of sounding good on a non-RZA beat.
>
>

I wouldn't say that he fell off as an MC because he absolutely destroys those features on Cuban Linx 2.

If someone can listen to New Wu and say Meth doesn't kill that then they just don't know what raw MCing is.

He also never really consistently made great songs on his own so not much has changed.

The part about only sound good on RZA beats may have some truth to it...but I think he just sounds better on harder/darker production.

He sounds dope on a lot of those Erick Sermon beats on Blackout.

He sounds dope on the Daz beat on Got MY Mind Made Up.

He sounds dope on The What.

He's dope on Hell On Earth

So I mean, RZAs style matches him the bes and allows him to be the most consistent but he has been great on other production as well.

>Both declined on BR&L & TLM (Phife was especially
>cringeworthy.) Q-Tip's flow was choppy & sloppy for years
>until he improved on his comeback album.
>
they did have a low point there, even tho i'll argue both albums had their moments, HOWEVER Tip's Renaissance is FIRE....

>Posdnuos - stiff & sounds like he's reading off paper.
>
i wholeheartedlty disagree, homie has gotten better IMHO... i wish we had some new DeLa....


>I'd say Kweli, but he's always had cringeworthy moments.

again i disagree

...no doubt, cat use to be a monster on the MIC...I think what got him was that you can only be a hard rock MC for so long, then it gets played and people just don't believe you anymore...all that catchin bodies ish gets old...one can only be creative so long in that style...

Dude used to actually have good lines back in the days

...cause he proved he could still bring it on BCT....he doesn't give a fuck tho, and i can't say i blame him...the guy's a legend and makes albums just to make a lil mo money these days....almost the same as Cube or Will.......

Canibus wins...lol

...pains me to say it, but yeah...