and for the record,
i don't think that everybody has to "sing from the gut" to have soul.

diana ross sings with soul.
el debarge sings with soul.

neither of these artists have an ounce of grit to them,
but still, it's soulfull.



but whitney, she doesn't have soul to me.

i love whitney houston,
but she doesn't have soul.


i never believe a word that's coming out her mouth lol.





*notable execption*

"saving all my love for you," where she really does sound
like a teenage girl, hoping against all hope that the
married man will leave his wife, but knowing deep down
that it will never be.


i believe that one.





SIDENOTE: why do most whitney houston songs
sound as if they were written by a gay man?

i don't know if a guy could cover a whitney houston song
without having it sound like he was singing to another dude
(not that there's anything wrong with that).


my theory is that all of her songs are about
pining for the object of your affection,
and that's not an emotion that guys typically expresss.

so if a man came out and sang "saving all my love for you,"
he'd sound very, very gay.






anyway, thoughts?


do you think whitney houston has soul?

listen to the preacher's wife soundtrack

she killed it....soulfully

the problem was that she would get easily into oversinging and the selection of songs of the "diane warren anthem" ilk which didn't require soul as much as technical skill (which she had in abundance)

i used to have that album
but i don't dig gospel too much so i never kept it.

but she DID sound soulful on that album.




>the problem was that she would get easily into oversinging and
>the selection of songs of the "diane warren anthem" ilk which
>didn't require soul as much as technical skill (which she had
>in abundance)



i agree.

i'd never heard the song outside of my family's church in rural Alabama. i was incredibly moved by Whitney's performance and the choir's and i was pleasantly surprised to learn ppl other than the members of that church know the song. LOL

but yeah...real tears on that 1. music rarely does that to me.

-

Whitney Houston sings with alot of soul.

>SIDENOTE: why do most whitney houston songs sound as if they were written by a gay man? i don't know if a guy could cover a whitney houston song without having it sound like he was singing to another dude (not that there's anything wrong with that). my theory is that all of her songs are about pining for the object of your affection, and that's not an emotion that guys typically expresss. so if a man came out and sang "saving all my love for you," he'd sound very, very gay.




"Saving All My Love For You" was actually recorded/released first by Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis, around 1978: http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2120707

it aint soul if theres 0% grit in it

http://youtu.be/pX6QlnlMqjE

...and was like, damn.

--------
Guante: www.guante.info

Was the ONLY thing I really felt from her, and not because she was wailing at the end, but this was one of the few times where she evoked real emotions, same with "Why Does It Hurt So Bad".

The thing is with Nippy, she's real distant when it comes to her own material, at least to me. She could've devoted her career to singing jingles, it would still feel the same to me. Its a shame because in her prime she was a helluva singer.

you're singing or playing. That implies soul music is either universal, or that only soul musicians believe what they're expressing.

To me, true soul is the ability to use the pentatonic scale(s), blues scale, blue notes, and other Black American musical phraseology in a really good, pleasing way. Of course that involves a good knowledge of the rhythms of Black melodies and vocal riffing. I think Whitney has all of that down.

That was a very Damaja-thing to say. I generally agree though even if I'm not sure about the specifics you mentioned (bluenotes, pentatonic etc.). Basically, I would say that is the ability to pull off a set of established and generally agreed upon cliches in a convincing way; people who say stuff like "Bob Dylan is a soul-singer" are really silly IMO...

While he's right about the mastery of a few general musical concepts, he is ignoring the overall most important aspect of soul music: theatrical performance style.

And that performance style is (as I have argued here for a decade)(damn) not based on wild, raw outpourings of emotion as is often stated when talking about soul... it's about the *restraint* of which a wild, raw outpouring. It's about repressing (or rather containing) emotions more than it is about expressing them.

EDIT: Whitney does not perform in that theatrical tradition. Which is not to say she is not theatrical, but that hers is a different lane. We have to remember that Clive groomed her to be a new Olivia Newton-John.

But sometimes she shows herself as being reasonable fluent in the soul lexicon. See: http://youtu.be/Fpd1g9zQ658

or: http://youtu.be/KGL099t8i2s

I read somewhere (I think Charles Shaar Murray's book about Hendrix but I don't remember) about when Janis Joplin performed in a soul-context (she was opening for a soul-act or playing in a "black" club or something) and showed up showing no restraint and generally losing herself in the music in her typical way and people booed her and she couldn't understand why because she felt she was a soul-artist. I think a pretty high degree of professionalism and self-control was expected of the soul artists by the audience who I guess defined them which BTW is why the "wild" and "free" hippies were quoted as saying stuff like "spade music (note:not my words) is square and republican" in the late 60's...

Rock was all about freaking out and letting it all hang loose.

Soul was about being passionate, but under control.

(I could link that to the Civil Rights movement, and how protesters had to remain calm and controlled when defying segregation laws, but I have neither the time nor the inclination right now)

It's also the difference between funk (as played by James Brown) and the Funk genre of the 1970s, which was largely about Black guys wanting to have their own answer to Rock.

>It's also the difference between funk (as played by James
>Brown) and the Funk genre of the 1970s, which was largely
>about Black guys wanting to have their own answer to Rock.

Cause i've always wondered how we went from Cold Sweat to Atomic Dog.

>Cause i've always wondered how we went from Cold Sweat to
>Atomic Dog.

>which BTW is why the "wild" and "free" hippies were quoted as
>saying stuff like "spade music (note:not my words) is square
>and republican" in the late 60's...

They said that? Its funny, most of that crowd loved rock & roll which was "spade music" at its core.

Then again, the contempt against musical expressions created by black people is nothing new.

It was disappointment in Black professionalism.

Look at it this way: the Rock generation was largely a bunch of white kids who wanted to rebel against their bland, suburban background by adopted (what they viewed as) the wild, sexual, outlaw mannerisms of negroes.

But most negro groups of the era were dressing like teams of waitstaff and dancing in carefully controlled, choreographed moves.

When the Grammys were considered some square, industry circle jerk bullshit, no self-respecting Rock act would ever attend the ceremony (do you realize there was not a Rock category at the Grammys until 1979!) but all the R&B/soul artists were there cheesing it up, thankful to be invited.

They were disappointed that the Black artists were not more rebellious, why they seemed to want to be part of the system.

What they didn't understand was that Black people were *already* excluded from the system from birth... and so yes, they were trying to be upwardly mobile, to "make it."

I have a Quincy Jones record from his R&B era ("I heard that!"; the second disc is a comp of his jazz-stuff though) and in the gatefold he show all his prizes and grammies; I can not even imagine a rock-artist doing something like that, it's unthinkable. Not even Elton John or Billy Joel would do something like that...

EDIT:Of course, Quincy Jones came from a different generation and scene and was part of the establishment but still, I could imagine Stevie doing that too...

> Not even Elton John or Billy Joel would do
>something like that...

I was gonna say Elton John might have done it, but you're right... not in the 1970s. He would have done it in the 1980s, though!

i knew there was a reason i appreciated ur presence in here

>i knew there was a reason i appreciated ur presence in here


Anyway, if you look in the Archives, I'm pretty sure I've talked about this kind of thing before....

Hold on, I'll look myself...


Ah, here we are: http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=17&topic_id=1&mesg_id=1&listing_type=search

and for bonus:

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=17&topic_id=1745&mesg_id=1745&listing_type=search

there's a few other interesting discussions we've had on these issues in the past but I gotta try to remember which posts they were in...

>It was disappointment in Black professionalism.
>
>Look at it this way: the Rock generation was largely a bunch
>of white kids who wanted to rebel against their bland,
>suburban background by adopted (what they viewed as) the wild,
>sexual, outlaw mannerisms of negroes.
>
>But most negro groups of the era were dressing like teams of
>waitstaff and dancing in carefully controlled, choreographed
>moves.
>
>When the Grammys were considered some square, industry circle
>jerk bullshit, no self-respecting Rock act would ever attend
>the ceremony (do you realize there was not a Rock category at
>the Grammys until 1979!) but all the R&B/soul artists were
>there cheesing it up, thankful to be invited.
>
>They were disappointed that the Black artists were not more
>rebellious, why they seemed to want to be part of the system.
>
>What they didn't understand was that Black people were
>*already* excluded from the system from birth... and so yes,
>they were trying to be upwardly mobile, to "make it."
>
>
I can't find the story in a Google search right now but I know I have it in some music anthology I have somewhere. I'll dig for it sometime.

...has been tainted by all the shows like the worldwide Idol-franchise and talent-shows and shit where people show up wailing through "the Greatest love of all", trying to sound like her and stuff.

I don't know what the reception was at the time since I really had no clue about soul music then (I guess rock-critics complained about her not being "gritty" like Aretha or Otis but I'm talking more about actual soul-critics and the genre-fans), I know people felt her music was too poppy of course but her voice?

Anyway, for me, it's *nowadays* (and for the past 20 years I guess) almost impossible to divorce the Whitney style from talent shows contestants (not that they sing as good as her but still) and those don't exactly radiate "soul"

because her talent (and pedigree) was undeniable, but it was clear that the label was deliberately doing everything in their power to keep her from being "a Black artist."

(The commercially released version of "Saving All My Love" was not Whitney's original recording of it... Clive rejected the first take because he thought it sounded "too Black")

Even when Whitney went on her first media tour, Clive kept her away from all the Black radio stations.

All of these reasons are why people don't think of Whitney as a "soul artist" in that way.

(That, and the videos for "How Will I Know" and "I Wanna Dance With Somebody")


(and her dancing)

Whitney didn't get much love from the Blacks in her heyday b/c her image was so whitewashed. as seen in the music videos you mentioned.

>
>(and her dancing)

I forgot about this. Not the strongest dancer in the bunch.

>I forgot about this. Not the strongest dancer in the bunch.

http://youtu.be/naSAQ-xuTvo

and it's funny every time.

>EDIT: Whitney does not perform in that theatrical tradition.
>Which is not to say she is not theatrical, but that hers is a
>different lane.



i mentioned this post to my buddy last night,
and that's what he said.

it's not that she's not theatrical.
but she's coming from a different tradition.

i was vindicated when she won that Oscar.

Whitney...i didn't hear Broadway directly, but i heard Streisand as filtered through Diana Ross. if that makes sense.

>Whitney...i didn't hear Broadway directly, but i heard
>Streisand as filtered through Diana Ross. if that makes
>sense.

And while I never thought that about JHud, now that you mention it, I totally get you... I'm hearing her rendition of "I Have Nothing" in my head as I type this and it's just like you said (of course, it could also be because she was singing a Whitney song....)

that's why she had those TV specials (like Color Me Barbra) and the supper club dates (like Barbra @ the Vanguard) and the Oscar-bait movies (like Funny Girl).

i think Clive would've wanted that for Whitney if he'd introduced her to the public in the early 70s.

that's why you got LPs like this one: http://www.avidvinyl.com/pic/NSLP_0188.JPG

>that's why she had those TV specials (like Color Me Barbra)
>and the supper club dates (like Barbra @ the Vanguard) and the
>Oscar-bait movies (like Funny Girl).
>
>i think Clive would've wanted that for Whitney if he'd
>introduced her to the public in the early 70s.

I see your point,
but there are too many rock artists that
fit the description you laud out that definitely
don't fit into the definition of "soul."

>you're singing or playing. That implies soul music is either
>universal, or that only soul musicians believe what they're
>expressing.
>


no soul is about making the audience believe that you believe what you are singing or playing,

and yes soul is universal all great music has soul (don't confuse soul music a genre with music that has some soul).

you can play soul music and not have soul and there are plenty of non soul musicians with soul.


>To me, true soul is the ability to use the pentatonic
>scale(s), blues scale, blue notes, and other Black American
>musical phraseology in a really good, pleasing way. Of course
>that involves a good knowledge of the rhythms of Black
>melodies and vocal riffing. I think Whitney has all of that
>down.

again thats soul music you can do all that perfectly and not have soul, soul is an intangible so i can't describe it but i know soul when i feel it and whitney had plenty of soul, thats what set her apart

Her voice was so pure. Her control was ridiculous.

It literally hurts my heart to hear her today.

************************

and that's why I think this thread was made. If you watched Whitney when she was on top she could barely tap her feet while singing.

he's my second favorite singer,
and he most definitely has soul
but his "dancing" leaves much to be desired...

skip to 1:07


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SRD6ZrZ8I&feature=related


anyway, that's not why i made this post lol

and while he wasn't James Brown the little shoulder rock and hip thing he did was enough to get the party started. Those kids were stiff as hell too..LOL

Whitney was big during the dancing phase on BET and MTV and I think her lack of dancing helped contribute to the myth.

Funny thing is Beyonce can dance but I think her music lacks soul. Maybe having so many writers or this new era has something to do with it.

you know those dances
that make the kids just sort of slump down in their chairs in embarrasment?

that's what marvin is doing, right there lol



>Funny thing is Beyonce can dance but I think her music lacks
>soul.


beyonce, i think... sings more in the soul tradition
that AFKAP is talking about above
moreso than whitney does on her biggest hits.


not to say beyonce is the most soulful motherfucker on the planet.
but she sounds like somebody that "grew up in the church."
well, more that whintney does.



Maybe having so many writers or this new era has
>something to do with it.
>
>

she sings in the Star Search tradition.

I don't believe she sounds like she grew up in the church... she sounds like she grew up singing along to Mariah Carey records.

That's the case with many of today's "sangers" we have today (Aguilera, Yonce, Kelly Clarkson) etc... their idea of soul singing is kinda like a copy of a copy of an echo.

>she sings in the Star Search tradition.
>
>I don't believe she sounds like she grew up in the church...
>she sounds like she grew up singing along to Mariah Carey
>records.
>

>That's the case with many of today's "sangers" we have today
>(Aguilera, Yonce, Kelly Clarkson) etc... their idea of soul
>singing is kinda like a copy of a copy of an echo.

>she sings in the Star Search tradition.
>
>I don't believe she sounds like she grew up in the church...
>she sounds like she grew up singing along to Mariah Carey
>records.
>
>That's the case with many of today's "sangers" we have today
>(Aguilera, Yonce, Kelly Clarkson) etc... their idea of soul
>singing is kinda like a copy of a copy of an echo.

At least, I could hear some conviction from Mariah when she says she has been alienated, Beyonce(a good singer too) sounds like a mannequin if it had a voice.

they were talking about Mariah's rendition of 'Jesus Oh What a Wonderful Child'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmS4K37dh_o

Like Faye, SWV, Shirley Murdock, Kelly Price and damn near 3/4 of the R&B population of the 90s, The Clarke Sisters had the influence on lock & key, Mariah was a loyal student of the Clarke Sisters school, but unlike the aforementioned disciples, she was smart enough to conceal the CS influence and mix it with a lil' Niecy, Syreeta and Minnie.

Speaking of which, I still roll my eyes @ the Mariah/Whitney comparison, and I can't believe people are feeding into it to this day.

for sure.

i've seen videos of her singing in church. and i heard that Preacher's Wife soundtrack. and i've seen too many clips of her singing Gospel songs, credibly and w/soul, during her concerts back in her heyday.

How in the hell that didn't happen to Beyonce/Rihanna/Gaga/Nicki yet? lol

But I remember her saying in Ebony that some black folks felt that she abandoned them when she went mainstream.

The story of every black artist who crossed over.

Sure, today the Soul Train Awards is just another meaningless celebrity soiree but it kinda meant something back in those days... It was only place that recognized "real" Black artists. And it usually seemed fishy when they would slip in more mainstream darlings.

If you want to get an idea of what the STA was like back then, see if you can find the footage from 1990 when Heavy D & the Boyz won (I just searched and couldn't find it on the 'Tube). Check out how the crowd cheered when Hev said "I'm glad to be Black... even though I'm a yellow Black!" and when he proclaimed "I got SOUL!!"

That was one of the most unapologetically Black things I remembered seeing on American broadcast television at that point.

And I do mean "some" lol,,,,,

Do you think Nippy's cousin - Dionne - has "soul"?

I'm asking this, because she too has been through "your negro card should be permanently revoked" ordeal before her.

she definitely has the "restraint" that AFKAP was
talking about earlier in the post.

she's kind of like gladys knight...
in the sense that all of the emotional power
from her vocal performances is rooted in all of the things
that she ISN'T doing with her voice.


like i said, i don't think you have to sing
rough to have "soul."


el debarge is as smooth as they come,
and he has soul for sure.

so does curtis mayfield, and he
sang super smooth when he was with the impressions.



so yeah, she qualifies.

And I'm mystified that there are people who STILL think they she doesn't sing "black" - whatever the hell that means.

Whats funnier, most of the folks who said this to me are not black.

i think that's a requirement w/soul as y'all are speaking of it. and i'm not sure how much i agree w/that definition, btw.

regardless of my agreement w/the definition, i know what y'all are saying. and i think the singers y'all reference give us a hint at what lurks beneath the sheen. they don't sing rough, but they let us know they've got that in them. there's that necessary tension. Dionne's 60s Bacharach hits don't have it. not coming from her, i mean. too much softness and sheen and polish.

then again, i'm only casually familiar w/her 60s work. i'm willing to accept i may be missing something.

and that's the material she's best known for (and my favorite from her too)

but her vocal approach changes a bit in the 1970s.

"I'll Never Love this Way Again": http://youtu.be/A4rHHNvS8LA

"I Just Don't Know What To Do with Myself"/ Walk On By" (w/ Isaac Hayes): http://youtu.be/C3gl5BHe5Pg

yeah. i'm w/you.

>i think that's a requirement w/soul as y'all are speaking of
>it. and i'm not sure how much i agree w/that definition,
>btw.
>
>regardless of my agreement w/the definition, i know what y'all
>are saying. and i think the singers y'all reference give us a
>hint at what lurks beneath the sheen. they don't sing rough,
>but they let us know they've got that in them. there's that
>necessary tension. Dionne's 60s Bacharach hits don't have it.
> not coming from her, i mean. too much softness and sheen and
>polish.
>
>then again, i'm only casually familiar w/her 60s work. i'm
>willing to accept i may be missing something.

"Who Can I Turn To" is an example of whats lurking under the shadow so to speak, there're many "soulful" Bacharach songs, but they didn't make their way to pop radio.

For the record, I don't fully agree with AFKAP's definition of soul. I think its much more complex to contain and boil down into a mere sentence.

Yes, restraint and subtlety is soulful, Little Jimmy Scott is one of the most soulful singers that ever graced a record, but I also think that sincere uninhibition(sp?) is also soulful. Chaka Khan TO ME hits a core when she wails through "Egyptian Song", and lemme tell you, there's NO restraint in there - even though she was capable of such in so many songs in her catalog.

My point is, its way too complex a term to simplify.

By no means do I suggest that my idea of restraining emotion embodies the totality of soul performance... I always bring that point up mostly in regards to the popular notion that Soul is all about raw, unrestrained emotion.

I think that one of the techniques of soul performer is to arouse that kind of emotion in the listener by restraining his/her own emotions. It's like how wearing a brassiere a size too small can make one's tits look bigger and overflowing... by making a show of holding back the emotions, the actual effect is to make the emotions appear magnified and larger than life.

>and i'm not sure how much i agree w/that definition,
>btw.


defining soul is sort of like defining funk. or any other genre for that matter.
it's like they say about porn... you know it when you see it.



actually, i made the post b/c i sort of wanted to go back and forth
about "what is soul vs. what isn't."

and why are we quicker to label some things as soul more than others,
even though it's not an easy line to draw.




folks tried to say it's about being rugged,
but el debarge has soul.


you mentioned her work on the preacher's wife soundtrack,
and you're right... that was soulful.



yet, for the life of me, i can't put my finger on exactly what was different.


dammit, i'm rambling, as i'm wont to do
when i've had one too many.


anyway... AFKAP didn't sum up what soul was in the definition he gave,
but it worked for the post.

i don't even think AFKAP intended for that to be the be all, end all definition of soul.

but it sort of works for the post.







>
>regardless of my agreement w/the definition, i know what y'all
>are saying. and i think the singers y'all reference give us a
>hint at what lurks beneath the sheen. they don't sing rough,
>but they let us know they've got that in them. there's that
>necessary tension. Dionne's 60s Bacharach hits don't have it.
> not coming from her, i mean. too much softness and sheen and
>polish.
>
>then again, i'm only casually familiar w/her 60s work. i'm
>willing to accept i may be missing something.

and i'm talking the stuff that didn't chart or was commerical Whitney was sanging.

yeah she got soul and feeling, she could work her instrument, like a Pimp at a Players Ball at a table.

whitney was so soulful that the corny stuff worked because her range was the truth.

if Whitney didn't have the soul then some of those songs would have been 5 star worthy or been stuck as Kim Fields outtakes. yeah Whitney had Soul yes lawd!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes! Case closed.

Check out NEW Soul music at: www.myspace.com/starbeing

Bumpin in the STEREO:
Gladys Knight&The Pips
Whitney Houston-self titled
Randy And The Gypsys
Jean Beauvoir-DATM
Atlantic Starr-Brilliance
Terri Lyne Carrington-TMP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tymN9T6EfBA

people were talking about Whitney's voice was shot....you know she couldn't hit those super high notes again..but one of her last performances here with Kim Burrell... she's able to get by strictly on the Soul in her voice...


see the thing about Whitney's career...

she kind of came out the box making a brand of R&B that was really pop sounding.. so that didn't really highlight the soul she had in her voice...

If you listen to her voice on the clip of her singing in church when she was 16 years old.....

I mean honestly Whitney Houston's was like the female version of Donny Hathaway.... there was really no limit to what she could do with it.. Had she sang music that was more soul or a less pop R&B style..or even funk...she would have been the best in that too..

you put her in the context that say Chaka was in when she came out...her voice would have hit with that too..

I think of Luther...one thing about his career was that his early releases had a much more R&B feel..so later when his sound went more pop, people still had a connection of him making more soulful R&B type of music.... Whitney didn't really have that...You give good love to me was a cool R&B track and the album has some stuff in that way...but soon after coming out...Whitney sound was crafted to be more pop sounding R&B...I'm not dissing it...but that's just what it was..she made some great historic songs doing that....

but she had soul....that's what distinguishes her voice from others.... people act like because she made pop r&b she had as much soul as Karen Carpenter or something....(again..not a diss to Carpenter either who really had a beautiful voice) .... but Whitney's voice wasn't milk toast... She had power...range....she didnt' have the depth say of Aretha Franklin but she could sing in that same style..and if you had put her in the formats to be a straight soul R&B singer she would have still hit the ball out of the park..