Note...I'm one of those who rarely talks about folks "falling off" because I realize that times change n all...but this is really a talk on how the entire tag and prestige of "Superproducer" has changed.

Felt like from 98 or 99 and up to around 2006, 90% of all songs on the radio were produced by the same 10-15 hot producers at the time. Off the top of the head, these are some that seemed to own radio:

Just Blaze
Lil Jon
Scott Storch
Jazze Pha
Dr. Dre
Mr. Collipark
The Neptunes
Swizz Beatz
Trackmasters
Jermaine Dupri
The Runners
Cool and Dre
Mannie Fresh
Kanye West

Since then, things have changed a whole lot. Lex Luger and a few new cats are def running things, and you still hear from a lot of those producers I listed there...but as a whole, it's nothing close to how it was at that time, where it was more about the producer than anything else. They'd drop their tags on it and everything so that you knew they made it...they basically became celebs on their own. At this point, only a few of us even know what Bangladesh and Boi-1da look like, and casual fans may not even realize who they are. A lot of hit songs in the last few years were produced by the artist's camps vs a major known producer.

Is there anything on the business side that changed about it? Did folks just get tired of hearing everybody from every region on the same songs? Did their prices get too high for album budgets, especially since albums aren't selling nearly as much?

Or...am I completely wrong?

once you knew you could get a hit from some 17 year old in Atlanta, you didn't need to give Ye or Rell a hundred Gs for a beat.

Now you might work with Ye for a verse and the attention that comes with it, but you don't need to go to the big names to get a hot beat anymore. Hell, everyone and their momma has a beat tape in 2011, since the whole brainfeeder/LET thing has blown up.

Plus...most of them cats fell the fuck off. LOL @ someone wanting a Scott Storch beat in 2011. the fuck.

>Plus...most of them cats fell the fuck off. LOL @ someone
>wanting a Scott Storch beat in 2011. the fuck.

On one hand, it's just as you said with bedroom producers being able to make the saaame shit. But then when you listen to Scott Storch n them, you realize that their shits just sound super bland and plain now...Scott did that "Boom" shit for T-Pain and Snoop, and it's just like eh....in 06, I woulda LOVED this, but it sounds super extra average now

they are the first major group as far as i can remember to cop beats from no name cats, in addition to getting stuff from producers that people wouldn't suspect like Hi-Tek

been doing started right after his first cd.

i was thinkin the same shit dude...

forget his name...
the white girl don or whatever from rich boy throw some d's.
bangladesh, drummaboy & mr toomp too.
add lex luger in about 4 more months.

i made this same post over a year ago.

gotta throw in timbo with that list too

remember krysis and 9th wonder?
remember ILLMIND??? lol.
remember oddisee?

i guess "the lesson" is don't try to have a bigger spot on the marquee than the rapper/singer.

and rappers really got it fucked up with that whole (prod. by ___) trend.
so basically you're letting the producer sell the track for you?
lol. great way to build a career.

you had to sell yourself thru your production work. i mean even looking at the next crop of rappers being hyped in the lesson, with the exception of maybe krit and danny brown, none of these cats are lyrical beasts or even have a fresh persona. They got some hot ass beats tho. (The new ASAP Rocky tape is a perfect example)

But yeah, feels like a lot of folks we listen to are solely for production...especially cats like Wiz and even Dom to me.

>But yeah, feels like a lot of folks we listen to are solely
>for production...especially cats like Wiz and even Dom to me.


it's not about the quality of the beat though.
i mean you listen to a track you're going to hear the beat one way or another. regardless of who produced it.

but putting (prod. by ___) on the file name or on the back of your damn album?

wtf type of backwards business is that for a rapper trying to make a career for himself?

i think its necessary because the producer needs to get his name out there too, when it comes to rap the producer is basically a co-songwriter, and some listeners want to check out all the work a certain person has done, so someone who digs Clams Casino could discover ASAP that way.

that tactic wouldn't have made much sense in the past when only one producer handled all the cuts and he was usually on the album cover if not a part of the group

but I'm a hoarder and my iTunes is retardedly meticulous

like I know SOME kind of names are producing these Plies mixtapes I'm probably never going to listen to but the idiot won't TELL me

even more frustrating is the stuff with only partial credit, like the latest Starlito tape that only gave credit to Lil Keis and Celsizzle tracks but left some unmarked. WHY?! or when there's a mixtape with a ton of alright beats and then the two best ones on there are a total fucking mystery I REALLY want the answer to so I can either say "hey another great piece of sound from so and so" or "I haven't heard of that guy has he done anything else/should I watch for him"

the worst though is when an actual album comes out and nobody can remember where the beat's from. I remember that happened to like four tracks on OB4CL2.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

>but I'm a hoarder and my iTunes is retardedly meticulous

i know what you mean. im not a hoarder (for the most part i delete songs i dont like. but i rate everything in iTunes, put the producer to the track in the composer field, and use the grouping field for record label or just other "tags" i like like female singer, handclaps, piano loop etc. which leads to some nice smart playlists. But not knowing the producer and having to track that down is a pain. especially if they arent big and arent on wiki or discos

...

>remember oddisee?
>

you hatin hard right now

im not gonna go back and forth about it either, they just are.


http://www.flavors.me/vonpea

Von Pea & Aeon - "Things Have Changed"
https://soundcloud.com/vonpea/things-have-changed-produced

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

.

That has to contribute to it some what.

The young dudes killed the superproducer according to Mannie Fresh.

I mean seriously....if a producer in his basement can make a beat on $500 or even free equipment that's literally IDENTICAL to what they were charging $100,000 for, it shows how damn overvalued they were. It's no way in hell that a random 21 year old at the local park, hell even at Rucker Park, would be good enough to take Kobe's spot if he said "you can only pay me $40,000 a year!!!"

the quality of production hasn't declined?
do you think the new records sound the same, better or worse than music made before this trend?

All the low budget Jerkin/Dougie "Ratchet" songs, nah production def isn't as solid and it's more about the simple pattern and hard hittin drums.

But these superproducers were milking the FUCK out of their sound, even worse than Babyface and Teddy Riley did in previous decades. Yeah vs Freek-a-Leek is best example, but all those producers mentioned did similar things, even with Diva vs A Milli which was recent.

But eh, I can't really say the overall quality of production declined, because most of the new acts we're into have great production..that's really the main reason we're into a lot of them.

Lil Jon's most simple beats, and with some fucking around, Timbo's syncopation could be done in somebody's bedroom, but there's gotta be a small amount of bedroom beatmakers that are gonna put baby noises on a track confidently and on purpose. I think the lack of touch and personality that made the superproducers super is what was missing when things declined.

Lol, message boards and YouTube have/had niggas thinking shit was super easy.

Niggas started rhyming over those style of beats, and once people realized that all it took was ableton and a couple of monomes......

game went space.

Digital audio workstations are a hell of a drug.

a combo of everything that has been mentioned.

plus like you said album sales died. if a performer wants to get cake he has to go on the road. i for one would be damned if i am going to go out and work hard miss my family and friends so i can pay a dude who has admitted he can does 5 beats a day, to sit at home.

producers need to do what edm producers do, also what mannie fresh said in the other post. they need to learn to dj. then they can hit the road and make good money djing parties. shit porn stars do it too, shoot the video (what they get a couple of grand for that) go out on tour stripping. even former presidents do it, leave office, start the speaking tours.

Fruity Loops + Internet + young producers doing it for bargain basement prices = the end of the super producer as we know it...

the trend of simplistic low-rent beats when I said in a reply to a post about new music that kids messing around with computer programs to create beats would be the new movement.

I guess I was right.

If there were a such thing as superproducer it would be someone like Quincy Jones or George Clinton or Smokey Robinson, Burt Bacharach, etc...

how about Super Beat-makers?

From what's been happening a lot lately is that major record labels have been seeing a decline on record sales so now they aren't willing to pay the money they use to pay so-called super producers for music that's not getting the same attention as before.

Studios have been closing up everywhere now that kats can make quality sounding music in there bedrooms and in small home studios, and a lot of the time most rappers are seeking small-time producers who got their own studio and can track their music and the rapper's vocals easily without it sounding amateurish and without paying money to do the same thing at some big name studio that most superproducers use to make rappers go to.

Also with everyone doing mixtape albums and it basically being an album of unreleased or rejected album songs, a lot of superproducers don't want those rappers to get a hold of their music, go thru the time to produce a song for them and it end up on a mixtape album they won't recieve a dime for; and if they do get the money upfront, they still won't see any points, residuals, & royalties from it though, so quite a few of them have been backing away from doing songs with some artists that are putting out tons of mixtape albums.

I know a lot of them were mad as hell that their tracks were only being used for mixtapes.

They're are trying to make money they already got a name, there are a few other producers who aren't fucking with Fifty that much anymore cause he has been using them for songs that he don't plan on putting on his album but on his mix-cds & Shade45 airplay only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFIYGkROII


and i dont think it's a bad thing

Just Blaze: woke up one day and decided...I don't wanna work. Perhaps the new Ross & Drake records will make Just wanna work more, cause I REFUSE to believe artists aren't calling him. Jay Elec is a wild card...but he will prolly be on SlaughterHouse, XV & Mickey Factz' debut & the next Jada album. 2012 should be his year...if he wants it.

Lil Jon: Got fucked in the game, and went another route...I can't blame him. Wish he's work w/Ciara again tho..

Scott Storch: Is an idiot....I bet he still submits to albums tho. He'll be a part of another hit...cause he is diverse and dope. Still an idiot tho lol

Jazze Pha: I got a theory on him, once his album w/Cee-Lo didn't drop and Ciara walked away from him (which kinda happened at the same time)...I think he got depressed. Dude has barely been on much in the last 3 years (he had 1 on Asher Roth's debut) Still talented...maybe he just needs to find another talent to develop.

Dr. Dre: Is bullshittin straight up, if he don't drop nothing after bringing back Snoop,Kurupt & D.O.C. I'll be confused.

Mr. Collipark: was never a super producer...just the hot beatmaker of the moment. When it ended...he did too.

The Neptunes: Being a neptunes stan....their inablity to make hits for anyone anymore is confusing. P isn't making wack shit, but he's not getting singles either. After a slow 09 & 10 (where P tried to use his old sounds in new songs), I think this year proves they are still can do it...and there's some mainstream artists that could use some creative work from them (Nelly, Snoop again, LL?). They can still do it.

Swizz Beatz: Is the only hip-hop superproducer left...he still makes hits with most of the people he's with...except for himself lol. With Jay, Jada, T.I. and Alicia he'll prolly get some more hits next year...the question is can he save Eve & DMX?

Trackmasters: Fell the fuck because they didn't change with the times. I know they gotta be mad for giving up on Red Cafe too...
Jermaine Dupri: Is taking too long with Da Brat...since Mariah is working with him again he'll get another shot. But will he disappear again after making hits like he did after "Emancipation Of Mimi"?

The Runners: aren't really superproducers imo, but they still involved. I think most people can't tell the difference between them & the J.U.S.T.I.C.E. League...I'm sure they'll be making someone a hit next year. After "Cheers" for Rihanna, they should do some more R&B work imo

Cool and Dre: Always seem this close to something great then nothing happens. They gave Game a great track for RED that got ignored...still give Fat Joe good music too. They still submitting for major albums, so it's only a matter of time...but the greatness of "Hate It Or Love It" will prolly overshadow them the rest of their careers.

Mannie Fresh: Hopefully has taught producers a lesson: even if the business is fucked up...KEEP PUSHING MUSIC!!! Most people don't know about how Birdman was taking his money, they just figured he fell off...now he's been gone too long. Good luck trying to save Juvi & Mystikal...he might wanna submit something to T.I. or Big Krit ASAP.

Kanye West: "and I'm rapping on the beats they supposed to buy, guess I'm getting high on my own supply" sums it up. If you aren't an A-list rapper or fam (like Twista) you prolly aren't getting no Ye beats. If I was Ci Hi I would be following Ye wherever he is and grabbing beats. He seems like he's gonna be involved w/King Push's album...add hov's solo & the G.O.O.D. comp...everyone else is prolly getting scraps (good luck Ci Hi lol)

Superproducers are still around; it's definitely been minimized by the spread of DAWs and free mixtapes like others have said.

But they're still around... Stargate produced S Club 7 pop in the 2000s, moved on to Ne-Yo, Beyonce, Rihanna, then Wiz Khalifa. Definitely more present in pop than hip-hop, but hip-hop is moving that direction (Kanye and Katy Perry collabs)

same reason real actors are almost irrelevant and reality tv rules.

Best answer in the post along with some of them were charging waaaaay too much for a damn beat. As Jeezy said...."The Recession"

the blessing and/or the curse depending on what side of the table one sits on.

people are overstating the democratizing element of digital production here. it's not a matter of artists "discovering" that decent beats can be had on the cheap -- they've been up to their ears in tracks from unknowns forever.

the appeal of paying a big name wasn't because they couldn't find good beats elsewhere: it was that a collaboration was both a co-sign and a way to generate buzz. but now, labels simply aren't putting that kind of money into production costs when they know they can't recoup it. for super-producers, it's a vicious circle. dudes won't pay their rates, they don't get placements, and their name dwindles.

that explains why a lot of "middle of the road" music in other genres has kind of fallen off as well but mainstream hip-hop was struck with a stake through the heart because of this.

The niggas selling records today in "urban" genres got the weirdest mix of audience I've seen.

I'm not where the baseline is for that or how one producer could make a mountain of hits.

Think about it, what if YOU had tons of hits under your belt and millions in the bank and the generation that you blew up in has passed somewhat, at that point you can pick and choose things that excite you, but if nothing excites you then...

So Guinesses point makes more sense.

A few platinum selling producers come to mind that still do it, but are working in niches now--even if one is still working with big-ger stars.

DAVID GUETTA!

-------------------------
“The other dude after me didn’t help my case. It was just like…crazy nigga factory going on.”
Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

WHY AINT NOBODY MENTION HIM!??

And because of this fact, and the slow dissolution of the music industry in the past decade, cats can make a living being nationally unknown but locally respected and in-demand for their music.

the "making beats in the studio" thing is for show.


http://www.flavors.me/vonpea

Von Pea & Aeon - "Things Have Changed"
https://soundcloud.com/vonpea/things-have-changed-produced

of "free mixtapes/street albums/something for my fans to hold them over/Friday Night Leak Series, whatever you want to call em now"...format

When this first broke hard a couple years ago, as far as big name producers having their tracks wind up on 'some free throwaway shit' they weren't with it, and I know they had to feel some type of way about it.

But now, what are you gonna do?..the free street/downloadable album IS the dominate outlet of hip-hop music now, it's too late to go back now.

I guess the only thing those former Superproducers have now is experience in the game, and they can flip that into being more traditional producers in the Dr. Dre frame of thinking,
but from an artist standpoint, it really makes no sense to pay crazy prices for 'some beat', even if it is bangin..these days you can get that from anywhere.

Also cats are more privy and aware about building a sound, so alot of times they dance with the one they came with i.e. that producer thats been with them from the start when said artist was local building that brand/sound.


AND also, A big factor (probably the biggest)... the majority fans nowadays dont give a fuck WHO made the beat..

you acting like those turkeys mentioned are named

Norman Whitfield

Holland, dozier and Holland

thom Bell

Quincy Jones

La and babyface

Rick James

R.Kelly

Jam and Lewis

Burt Bachrach

George Martin

Brian Wilson

Curtis Mayfield

Gamble and Huff

Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards

Stevie Wonder

Maurice White

Charles Stepney

George Clinton



i'm talking about real Producers not push button riding wave hot shot jive turkeys.

white man who signs there checks used them turkeys and then went Next!!!!!!!!!!

"white man who signs there checks used them turkeys and then went Next!!!!!!!!!!"

http://i.imgur.com/Y0kqy.gif

Because people at home are making better beats for Free and they are charging $50,000 for a beat that sounds exactly like last months flavor of the week.

Because he switched lanes into the pop/OONTZ production for the artists that still have a budget.

Darkchild wins.

But yeah. Shit, R&B on radio = Pop/Electro now half the time.

though, we have this kind of discussion at least every other month over at FutureProducers...

and now, it's ALL on Mike Will. Drumma Boy was here 5 years ago and still is, although he was never like a #1-#2 in the game type.

Hit Boy is having a good run, and it's good and bad that all of his songs sound completely different, in comparison to Mustard. "Niggas in Paris" "Watch and learn" "Clique" "Backseat freestyle"..most of them have similarities, but sound a lot different. So it's where he doesn't have a signature like most super producers, but getting A+ level placements means he's in there for sure.

>Note...I'm one of those who rarely talks about folks "falling
>off" because I realize that times change n all...but this is
>really a talk on how the entire tag and prestige of
>"Superproducer" has changed.
>
>Felt like from 98 or 99 and up to around 2006, 90% of all
>songs on the radio were produced by the same 10-15 hot
>producers at the time. Off the top of the head, these are some
>that seemed to own radio:
>
>Just Blaze
>Lil Jon
>Scott Storch
>Jazze Pha
>Dr. Dre
>Mr. Collipark
>The Neptunes
>Swizz Beatz
>Trackmasters
>Jermaine Dupri
>The Runners
>Cool and Dre
>Mannie Fresh
>Kanye West
>
>Since then, things have changed a whole lot. Lex Luger and a
>few new cats are def running things, and you still hear from a
>lot of those producers I listed there...but as a whole, it's
>nothing close to how it was at that time, where it was more
>about the producer than anything else. They'd drop their tags
>on it and everything so that you knew they made it...they
>basically became celebs on their own. At this point, only a
>few of us even know what Bangladesh and Boi-1da look like, and
>casual fans may not even realize who they are. A lot of hit
>songs in the last few years were produced by the artist's
>camps vs a major known producer.
>
>Is there anything on the business side that changed about it?
>Did folks just get tired of hearing everybody from every
>region on the same songs? Did their prices get too high for
>album budgets, especially since albums aren't selling nearly
>as much?
>
>Or...am I completely wrong?

I believe it is WAY tougher trying to establish yourself a producer period, because the market is so saturated....

And....everybody is a producer now.....nobody wants to be just a fan who enjoy the music...

Production is a craft. Once cats decided not to study the craft, it became watered down....

>I believe it is WAY tougher trying to establish yourself a
>producer period, because the market is so saturated....
>
>And....everybody is a producer now.....nobody wants to be just
>a fan who enjoy the music...
>
>Production is a craft. Once cats decided not to study the
>craft, it became watered down....
>


In parallel to what you're saying; Back in the days, you saved up and bought a piece of gear. Whether it was an MPC 60/60II, S950, ASR10, or whatever, you bought it and you learned it inside and out. The hardware made you work for everything. Every bit of dopeness you managed to extract from it had a lot of time spent behind it, and even more work ahead of it.

Software allowed the barrier for entry to be lowered, but not at first. Initially, there was sequencers like Cubase (formerly Pro Twenty-Four), Logic, and Master Tracks Pro. This stuff wasn't easy to use in even the slightest way, so there was still work to be done to get something good sounding to happen with them (mind you, they had to be used with samplers, drum machines, and other sound sources since they were purely MIDI sequencers). They were expensive too, and piracy was all but non existent.

Eventually, as features were added and computers got more powerful, software rivaled the power of some of the best music workstations money could buy.

It's at this point where the craft of producing was being lost.

Withe the advent of Reason, and Fruity Loops' 4.x updates, the power was placed within reach of anyone with a couple hundred dollars or less to spend and piracy further reduced the financial barrier to nothing. (Note: This is not a slight to 9th or anyone that uses/used FL as I use it almost exclusively myself)

With the advances in software in the last few years, the shit almost makes the beats for you. With little thought, cats are churning out sub-par sounding beats left and right in only minutes and on top of that, they're GIVING the shit away to MC Suchandsuch rappers for next to nothing. There was once a time where it wasn't uncommon for a cat to charge local rappers $250-$500 for a beat, now you can get beats 5 for $10. I can understand if it's a cat you really believe in: Just Blaze reportedly did "Exhibit C" without a dime charged. But there's guys offering to do a whole mixtape or album for the cost of an eigth and a couple 40's.

And that's what's happened: The music has been devalued to blue-light special pricing by guys that have no real time vested in crafting good music. This leaves the cats that have spent time honing their skills and building a rep for good solid production work ass out.

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

producing.

I was only able to get the equipment I had as a kid because my Dad produced/composed, and that was Cubase and a Roland JV-35...so even then, I wasn't able to make GREAT beats bc I couldn't even use samples and had stock drums.

But it did become almost TOO accessible. It went from, "damn, you make beats, like from scratch???" to "ohh you make beats? That's dope, somebody from my High School does them too" to "oh you make beats, you use your iPhone? My little brother and my cousin were making some at my house last night!"

>producing.
>
>I was only able to get the equipment I had as a kid because my
>Dad produced/composed, and that was Cubase and a Roland
>JV-35...so even then, I wasn't able to make GREAT beats bc I
>couldn't even use samples and had stock drums.
>
>But it did become almost TOO accessible. It went from, "damn,
>you make beats, like from scratch???" to "ohh you make beats?
>That's dope, somebody from my High School does them too" to
>"oh you make beats, you use your iPhone? My little brother and
>my cousin were making some at my house last night!"


Yeah, some of my first hip hop beats done on my own equipment were done with an Atari ST running MasterTracks Pro, a suck-ass Yamaha MU10 tone module, and a Novation MM10x. I had done beats on my uncle's stuff (mostly his Roland W30), and in a few small studios where I knew the cats that had 'em, but the MU10 beats were the first I did with my own shit.

No samples at all, so I learned to replay musical passages that I would have otherwise sampled. I put a lot of work into making music early on. I still make a lot of my music in the same way that I did when I finally got better equipment... Just without the equipment. I have a setup in Cubase SX3 that mimics some of the stuff I used back then for Detroit Techno, and I have one that mimics the hardware setup I used to make hip hop shits. In FL Studio, I just sit down and go.

Part of me misses the process I used to go through when making music on hardware to the point where I contemplate buying an ASR-X or MPC2000 (not the XL, just the 2000), some sound modules, and maybe an S950 or something like that just to have that creative flow I used to have.



---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

I'm confused.

and to where it was hard, almost impossible to profit...especially to go along with the mixtapes vs albums thing that came along.

The fact that it was extremely accessible and easy, and cheap, meant that eeeeverybody produced, and even if you had quality product, it was competitive as many have said. Even though a lot of folks loved my product, and even though I made good connects...even they weren't willing to pay what it was worth because they could easily get beats for cheap and free. Some would even be low enough to have producers re-create beats that were sent to them by producers so that they didn't have to pay them for it.

Now, the same exact thing happened with DJ'n because of technology...but I still focused on that and saw more success for a few hundred reasons. So technically, it wasn't "everybody produces, I quit!!!" just that subconsciously, I wasn't enjoying it as much, and dealing with artists and the $$$ was a major reason.

>I'm confused.

With hard work put into something, you will place value in that product. With little to no work put into it, you place little, if any value in it. This is why cats offer up beats for next to nothing if not free: They didn't put much effort in it, so it has little value to them.

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

little known producers could get $250-$500 off beats. Now, it's producers with songs on radio who can't even sell shit for that much.

I joke around that the girl who made "Teach me how to Dougie" got paid with a $25 Forever 21 gift card....but truth is, that song made millions, and she didn't even see a thousand up front...and only a few thousand on the "back end" which is what EVERY artist promises to producers. "When we get on?" "When this song hits radio?" "When we get our budget from the company?" = "YOU'LL GET PAID!"

And a lot of unestablished producers who are smart businessmen, as I halfway was, won't even get a placement when it's like "Naw...I need THIS up front, THIS percentage promised if it gets royalties" and all that.

>little known producers could get $250-$500 off beats. Now,
>it's producers with songs on radio who can't even sell shit
>for that much.
>
>I joke around that the girl who made "Teach me how to Dougie"
>got paid with a $25 Forever 21 gift card....but truth is, that
>song made millions, and she didn't even see a thousand up
>front...and only a few thousand on the "back end" which is
>what EVERY artist promises to producers. "When we get on?"
>"When this song hits radio?" "When we get our budget from the
>company?" = "YOU'LL GET PAID!"
>
>And a lot of unestablished producers who are smart
>businessmen, as I halfway was, won't even get a placement when
>it's like "Naw...I need THIS up front, THIS percentage
>promised if it gets royalties" and all that.


That's that bullshit. Nothing up front and a promise on the back end. As I said, if it's an artist that you really believe in, I can see throwing them a beat; I've done that myself. But when somebody hits me and I'm like "$xxxx up front, split publishing/mechanicals..." so on and so forth AND I want it in writing with my lawyers approval, they're like "Nah B, can I just get on that?".

Nope.

Which is why I have ONE release under my belt thus far.




... That's some cold shit about Runway Star. Did she really get a Forever21 card for that shit???

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

now a days, niggas be looking at me like Im speaking profane spanish or some shit...

Im a creative individual by nature..a music lover be heart, who's also a business man in the brain. My business side seen the state of the producing game coming about 3 or 4 years ago, when cats starting making 'mixtapes' with ALL original material.

Im glad I was able to get into some music scoring and sound designing to supplement the decline on the freelance producer lane. Mainly for the issues you mentioned.

>

He knows it wasn't that vibe.....

Attention man...attention....

Hence the reasons why artists sometime stay away from OKP

Been posting here long enough not to get gassed up like that. Your shit came off like you're bitter, that's all. If not, great for you.

And as someone said earlier, I'm quite certain I remember other producers clowning you for making beats on your laptop, so it's kind of rich to hear this argument from you, no?

regardless if you the self proclaimed "fan" of the music believe it or not.

Nothing bitter about the sentiment when it's the truth.

You say you aint on some "look at me", yet talking down to a dude who lives the industry....not read about it and armchair A&R it...but lives the shit.

I'm sure homie know what he talkin' about.

It is possible to disagree without coming across as a jackwagon.

>
Who...me?

Lol...not hardly...I'm GOOD....I just feel bad for the new kids who really try to make a mark on this game...

Sure, there are more producers then ever. But at the same time, there is more accessibility to make music than ever, and as someone who doesn't make music and thus has no vested interested, I think that's (mostly) a good thing.

It no longer takes equipment that costs hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to make beats, nor do you need a to spend a fortune on records to sample.

Who knows how many talented people were dissuaded from pursuing beat making 20 years ago because of all the costs involved. Now, they're doing shit in their moms basement on Fruity Loops.

While some may be threatened by this because they "don't appreciate the music" (whatever that even means, and as if anyone really knows if these kids do or not), I think that's a positive.

>Sure, there are more producers then ever. But at the same
>time, there is more accessibility to make music than ever, and
>as someone who doesn't make music and thus has no vested
>interested, I think that's (mostly) a good thing.
>
>It no longer takes equipment that costs hundreds, if not
>thousands, of dollars to make beats, nor do you need a to
>spend a fortune on records to sample.
>
>Who knows how many talented people were dissuaded from
>pursuing beat making 20 years ago because of all the costs
>involved. Now, they're doing shit in their moms basement on
>Fruity Loops.
>
>While some may be threatened by this because they "don't
>appreciate the music" (whatever that even means, and as if
>anyone really knows if these kids do or not), I think that's a
>positive.


The cost involved 20 years ago was high, sure, but you appreciated it more. If you weren't really serious about music, serious about making beats, you wouldn't waste your money or your time fucking with it. It was something only those with the dedication to the art got into. It also forced some cats (like myself) to be more creative because of the limits imposed by what you could afford to buy. A lot of dudes got on using older (at that time) gear instead of trying to buy new shit. Instead of saving up for an SP1200, S950, or MPC60/60II, you had cats buying second hand Mirage's, cheap Casio SK-1's, Casio RZ1 or an FZ1 or FZ10 if they could catch one just so they could get their feet wet, and ending up squeezing some amazing shit out of them.

Some of DJ Premier and Large Professor's early joints came out of the Casio SK-1.

I used to have a fairly well rounded recording setup in my apartment years ago made up of whatever I could cop for under $200 at a time. I had drum machines, keyboards, sound modules, a sampler, mixers and a PC that I used as a sequencer. I invested time in learning the ins and outs of each new piece that I added and could extract sounds out of some of that gear that made a number of seasoned vets say "You did this with what???". But that's what happens when you put time into your art.

The problem stems from several places, many of which have been outlined here already, but the one that sticks out to me is "work". The current generation doesn't work for shit, so they don't value anything like those before them. This and the fact that everything is at their fingertips immediately makes for an environment of individuals that don't see the value in hard work, and therefore can't understand why everything SHOULDN'T be easy. You got cats that whip up a bullshit beat, spit garbage rhymes over said bullshit beat, then shoot a video with their camera phone and upload the results to Youtube or Worldstar and they stand a halfway decent chance at attaining star status and a record deal...



... and they just started rapping and producing that afternoon!



A lot of these "producers" can't program a synth for shit, they use presets that came with their plugins (and rate them based on those presets, not by what you can actually do with them). They can't sample for shit, they rely on sample packs and pre-made loops. They don't know how to structure a song, how to give the vocalist room in a composition to spit, which is why a lot of the songs today have the rapper fighting the beat to get attention. They also don't know how to mix and don't have proper monitors opting to use their "Beats By Dre" headphones, wondering why their shit sounds like ass anywhere other than in the cans.

This is a product of this "gimmie now"-type generation. Zero work ethic, and the music they make fully reflects it.

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

No disrespect, but a lot of that reads as some crotchety old man "back in my day..." shit.

Times have changed breh.

And you say these don't kids work, yet when I talk to young producers, they're the ones making beats all day and night, and truth be told, most of the old heads don't seem to be grinding (many have other life obligations though, so I don't blame them) at all anymore.

>No disrespect, but a lot of that reads as some crotchety old
>man "back in my day..." shit.
>
>Times have changed breh.
>
>And you say these don't kids work, yet when I talk to young
>producers, they're the ones making beats all day and night,
>and truth be told, most of the old heads don't seem to be
>grinding (many have other life obligations though, so I don't
>blame them) at all anymore.

Wrong.

They're still using presets, they don't take the time to learn how to make their own sounds, so a lot of their shit sounds the same. They're still using ready-made drum loops and shit like that, so while yeah they may be making beats all the time, the method they're using is cookie-cutter at best.

You're right though: Times have changed... But that doesn't mean that times have changed for the better.

Myself, I take advantage of it by leveraging the technology to do things I used to do with my old setup, but within the space of my PC and laptop. I still make music the same way I used to: programming synths, chopping samples by ear, and whatnot. I just do it from within FL Studio or Cubase instead of with a room full of hardware.

These new cats can't tell you what an oscillator is or modulation routing, but they can tell you that so-and-so used the "Trap Muzik" patch in Beetmaker VST on a track on Jeezy's last mixtape.

"Newer" doesn't always mean "better", and that's a concept that cats like you fail to grasp.
---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

You were the one that got alotta folks on the "I can make beats too" bandwagon with use of Fruity Loops.

You were cold tho, so I could see why you got shine and then paid a lil sumpthin'...

But once people caught wind of what could be done on a low price software program....then everybody got big dreams and wanted to make them bangers using the least amount of money possible...

If it was back like in the 80's where only a few cats in a whole city would have a sampler because they were so damn expensive, things would be way different nowadays.

But you're right.....everyone either DJ's, makes beats, raps or sings...

America's Got Talent and American Idol got EVERYBODY gassed. lol

The personal computer has made everyone's lives much easier, but it also has its drawbacks depending on who you talk to (music $$$$$)...

Exclusivity no longer exists.

>You were the one that got alotta folks on the "I can make
>beats too" bandwagon with use of Fruity Loops.
>
>You were cold tho, so I could see why you got shine and then
>paid a lil sumpthin'...
>
>But once people caught wind of what could be done on a low
>price software program....then everybody got big dreams and
>wanted to make them bangers using the least amount of money
>possible...
>
>If it was back like in the 80's where only a few cats in a
>whole city would have a sampler because they were so damn
>expensive, things would be way different nowadays.
>
>But you're right.....everyone either DJ's, makes beats, raps
>or sings...
>
>America's Got Talent and American Idol got EVERYBODY gassed.
>lol
>
>The personal computer has made everyone's lives much easier,
>but it also has its drawbacks depending on who you talk to
>(music $$$$$)...
>
>Exclusivity no longer exists.


Count me as one of those people. I had Fruity Loops since 3.x, but it wasn't until I heard about LB via OKP, and further that I heard about 9th using Fruity Loops and Cool Edit on their tracks that I refocused on FL as a tool. I had it mainly to make Detroit Techno and Ghettotech, and to that end it was OK. I was more focused on using Cubase for music than FL. Hearing "Lovin It" brought me right back to FL like "hmmm... maybe I missed something..." and when I started making hip hop again, it became my go-to tool.

Now I know FL 3.x through 7 backwards and forward just like I used to know my hardware backwards and forwards. I just moved to 9 and more recently 10 and find I have a lot more to learn and relearn (but I still have 7 installed when I just want to be comfortable).

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

As a whole, I'm only surprised that the fact that everybody produces hasn't lead to much innovation or different techniques, and a lot of folks just carbon copy what's hot and don't even attempt to evolve it.

With DJ'n at least...I feel that we've become a lot more creative because of what we can do, in comparison to Rap producers. I feel the EDM and House producers have pushed boundaries more through technology.

>As a whole, I'm only surprised that the fact that everybody
>produces hasn't lead to much innovation or different
>techniques, and a lot of folks just carbon copy what's hot and
>don't even attempt to evolve it.
>
>With DJ'n at least...I feel that we've become a lot more
>creative because of what we can do, in comparison to Rap
>producers. I feel the EDM and House producers have pushed
>boundaries more through technology.
>


Being a DJ also....problem is that SERATO has made ALOT of DJs not study the speed of records....let alone music genres at all.....DJs has become diluted as well.....

Check the "celebrity" DJ craze

us be creative in what we do. The speed is a trip though, and how a lotta DJ's just fly through everything so damn fast.

The celebrity DJ shit....man. Some of them don't even know what BPM stands for.

>Being a DJ also....problem is that SERATO has made ALOT of DJs
>not study the speed of records....let alone music genres at
>all.....DJs has become diluted as well.....
>
>Check the "celebrity" DJ craze

Sometimes I feel like the only DJ left that DOESN'T use Serato. I've been spinning for over 20 years, never needed some shit like that. I do see how it can be useful by allowing me to use music I have as an MP3 and not on vinyl (like my own tracks), but the glut of cats out there trying to be a DJ is retarded.

The celebrity DJ craze spans back into the late 90's, when cats like Paul Oakenfold, Judge Jules, Sasha and the like were getting major press and and star status in Europe and eventually here stateside.

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

>You were the one that got alotta folks on the "I can make
>beats too" bandwagon with use of Fruity Loops.
>
>You were cold tho, so I could see why you got shine and then
>paid a lil sumpthin'...
>
>But once people caught wind of what could be done on a low
>price software program....then everybody got big dreams and
>wanted to make them bangers using the least amount of money
>possible...
>
>If it was back like in the 80's where only a few cats in a
>whole city would have a sampler because they were so damn
>expensive, things would be way different nowadays.
>
>But you're right.....everyone either DJ's, makes beats, raps
>or sings...
>
>America's Got Talent and American Idol got EVERYBODY gassed.
>lol
>
>The personal computer has made everyone's lives much easier,
>but it also has its drawbacks depending on who you talk to
>(music $$$$$)...
>
>Exclusivity no longer exists.

I think what makes a BIG difference...no matter WHAT you use....is the fact that alot of youngins lack music theory, and a LOVE for the music, instead of just trying to find a way to make money....

It also points directly to the shiny suit era. As soon as everyone sat at home and said...."maaaan I can do that"...it was all she wrote...

>I think what makes a BIG difference...no matter WHAT you
>use....is the fact that alot of youngins lack music theory,
>and a LOVE for the music, instead of just trying to find a way
>to make money....
>
>It also points directly to the shiny suit era. As soon as
>everyone sat at home and said...."maaaan I can do that"...it
>was all she wrote...
>

That too. lol

But to me it stems from the "Napster/MP3" generation and lack of attention spans due to ease of getting the music....

Fools can download a lifetime worth of music for free, so there's no value AT ALL in music to alotta people old or new.

I'm 37 and remember when in HS we would go to the record store FAITHFULLY spending lunch money to get the new dopeness every tuesday.

That stuff I still have means A LOT to me to this day....

Kids coming up now don't have those experiences and therefore don't value the music the way we did coming up.

I agree with what you said, but I also think broken down....it's mainly just a matter of value....or lack thereof.

We PAID for that shit and it had value to us because of it...gave more time to it....baby'd it...all that.

We all are guilty of that new school tho as well.....

Download - listen - archive - move on to the next - repeat

As far as beats.....that plug in sound *almost* as good as Neve....lol

The convenience is great, but there is a cost.

The people that LOVE the music, but want and deserve better are the ones paying the price.

General public don't have love for music like that tho....

Many levels of blame to go around.

the idea that democratization of technology and participation in art is somehow a BAD THING is absolutely ridiculous. also vehemently disagree with the idea that people's motivations towards making music have substantially changed.

>the idea that democratization of technology and participation
>in art is somehow a BAD THING is absolutely ridiculous. also
>vehemently disagree with the idea that people's motivations
>towards making music have substantially changed.


But it has.

Back in the day, there was a little money in it, but not like you would think. Cats that were in it, were in it for the music, to make something significant. "I wanna hear a dope MC spit over some shit I made" meant more than anything.

Today the overwhelming reason anyone downloads that FL Studio torrent is to make money. They see how some cats HAD it, and they want to get some of that money too. You read in magazines on how that -one- beat turn some dudes life around financially (then you never hear from his ass again...) or whatever, and they're trying to get that paper.


---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

there is such a "because i can" attitude with many people making music now. if the literal garage bands of yesteryear could simply email a pitchfork critic or nmc member over and over until they finally got a song posted right next to the new nirvana/NWA single back then things wouldve been different back then too. it has nothing to do with being bitter or having an above it all attitude, it just is the truth.

the issue is now we dont know who would have "made it" anyway without the easier methods of making music...that doesnt mean 9th or odd future or whoever else wouldnt have made it...we'll never know.

theres absolutely a difference between a person thats always been into music becoming a dj vs some socialite deciding hey fuck it im gonna dj today/im gonna make a song, shoot a video, and email the person i know at fuse because i can.



http://www.flavors.me/vonpea

Von Pea & Aeon - "Things Have Changed"
https://soundcloud.com/vonpea/things-have-changed-produced

social media and blogs might have changed methods of communication, but the idea that connections/access haven't always been part of music strikes me as inaccurate. and are we really comfortable with the claim that a significant percentage of people in entertainment haven't always been motivated by dreams of stardom/wealth?

personally, i find arguments about how ______ used to be ideologically pure but is now perverted by _______ are usually rooted in revisionism.

>social media and blogs might have changed methods of
>communication, but the idea that connections/access haven't
>always been part of music strikes me as inaccurate. and are we
>really comfortable with the claim that a significant
>percentage of people in entertainment haven't always been
>motivated by dreams of stardom/wealth?
>
>personally, i find arguments about how ______ used to be
>ideologically pure but is now perverted by _______ are usually
>rooted in revisionism.


In this case it's rooted in "iliveditsawitknowitism"

When there was little money in it, dudes were still doing it. Rappers wanted to show that they were the illest MC, producers wanted to make the dopest beats, DJ's (who were also often the producer) wanted to be #1 on the 12's. This was in the days when going gold was something that nobody but the absolute dopest acts did and platinum meant you crossed over (i.e. "Walk This Way")

People did it for reasons other than gettin paid, 'cause if that's all that was on anyone's mind there would have been far more rappers out there.

Don't get me wrong, money was part of it, but a small part.

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

WE DID FOR THE LOVE MAN
ALL THESE KID JUST CARE ABOUT MONEY

there's been a grand sum of ZERO examples offered of producers who (inexplicably) think that making beats is some get-rich-quick scheme and have profited accordingly. if they exist at all, they're exceedingly rare.

people's motivations for making music are irrelevant. rakim got into rapping for the girls. does that somehow make him less noble than someone who got into music for the pure love of crafting harmonies?

>WE DID FOR THE LOVE MAN
>ALL THESE KID JUST CARE ABOUT MONEY
>
>there's been a grand sum of ZERO examples offered of producers
>who (inexplicably) think that making beats is some
>get-rich-quick scheme and have profited accordingly. if they
>exist at all, they're exceedingly rare.
>
>people's motivations for making music are irrelevant. rakim
>got into rapping for the girls. does that somehow make him
>less noble than someone who got into music for the pure love
>of crafting harmonies?
>
>
>

That's because they have yet to profit... And likely never will.


---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

all these unsuccessful, obscure producers are truly ruining hiphop.

>all these unsuccessful, obscure producers are truly ruining
>hiphop.

Ask the question on any producers message board. You'll find that the majority of them are in it for the money and nothing more.

I've asked it just a little while ago. One of the answers was:

"The money. I'll leave the "do this for the love of music" for the nerds."

Thread has only 4 replies so far. Of those, all 4 are in it for the money with one saying "Both".

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

instrument...know why? cause u cant cheat or bullshit...u actually gotta put in TIME and WORK and actually learn the instrument...thats why real musicians will always get props in real music circles whether 'using live instruments' is hot at the moment or not

>
>But you're right.....everyone either DJ's, makes beats, raps
>or sings...

you do know that there are ..programs that...

-will play any drum groove you can imagine
-create a chord from playing a single note (no music theory necessary)
-take a sample.. convert it to midi then you can choose how you want to alter it
-type in words and have it sung (there is a whole digital pop star in japan)

People aren't rushing to play instruments because that aint the shit thats cool..

kids played guitar to get hoes back in the day..

now you rap.. DJ... make beats for the same outcome

and playg a chord are two dif things fam...you may have missed the point of my post. there are still people who think playing instruments is cool, you just cant go out and learn that shit overnite...so unless u really bout it you wont do it. thats whe way it SHOULD be with DJing and 'making beats' but its not. thats partially because now there are shortcuts. like i said, musicians are respected within REAL music circles, not necessarily amongst fly by night impressionable kids

In that sense I agree..

But technology trudges forward

anything that was "hard" 50 years ago is obviously easier now..

Photography

Producing

video editing

photo editing

etc...

I think that the people who truly push the boundaries out of sheer will and creativity are still here... you just can't assume they "make hip hop beats"..

Stuff I see in the EDM world and even the pop world is way more intricate and advanced than a 4-8 bar loop + drums

Like 9th said everybody is a producer it's over saturated
Big time

I know music in general is watered down
But hip hop seems to be the most

It's kind of the downfall of not being necessary
To actually play instruments in a way

You can't download a guitar god pack
And sound like john lee hooker or jimi or some shit

You gave to really be dedicated to learn said instrument

In hip hop it's too accessible

>Like 9th said everybody is a producer it's over saturated
>Big time
>
>I know music in general is watered down
>But hip hop seems to be the most
>
>It's kind of the downfall of not being necessary
>To actually play instruments in a way
>
>You can't download a guitar god pack
>And sound like john lee hooker or jimi or some shit
>
>You gave to really be dedicated to learn said instrument
>
>In hip hop it's too accessible
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I agree here. It's too fuckin easy.

---------------------------

I miss Tha D... But I'll never move back there.


R.I.P. Disco D

it's not easy...

If it was everyone wouldnt be banging on one man/s door for them

These superproducers were perceived as such because they were attached to large movements that allowed them to be extremely visible in the mainstream. These producers were getting recognized because they were attached to a large persona that was marketable. Music videos played a crucial part because this is where many people first saw what that person who made the beat looked like. There was more of a community atmosphere because large groups of people were seeing the producers on screen simultaneously for the first time. Youtube interfered with this a whole lot. The superproducer had a very strong symbolic presence in music back then. Their craft even seemed more appreciated. The Neptunes story seems to be one of the strongest examples of what happened. I still remember when they dropped Clones. They were huge back then. I remember them doing a radio interview explaining the meaning behind Clones. They said something along the lines of there being so many people emulating their sound. I was with my mom and she just happened to stop at Target that day. I went immediately to the music section and grabbed a copy of Clones. That was an EVENT.

Now producers being backed by a major label to release an album or getting that exposure to even talk on the radio about their project is unlikely. I guess the music industry realized that the persona was way more marketable than the actual music.

It's kind of funny because The Neptunes sound was the mainstream sound back then. It was all over the radio. The same thing is happening now but in a different way. The mainstream sound right now, which seems to be trap, is being emulated by millions of trap clones. It's easy to get access to make a trap beat for the low.

Being a producer seemed to be more exclusive back then. I would have loved to have a MPC or whatever The Neptunes were using back then but I couldn't afford it. I didn't find out about Fruity Loops until I found out about 9th Wonder.

When you could download software to make beats that sounded like whoever was hot at the moment, it was a WRAP. Soulja Boy blowing up was just fuel to the fire that was already raging. A superproducer is less super when his craft is over-saturated. When some unknown new producer starts getting more recognition than a superproducer and for subpar work and no real portfolio, then it's all bad from there. It also just takes too long for those superproducers listed to release their stuff. In all that time in between, way too much is happening in music that just makes them less relevant.

>Just Blaze
>Lil Jon
>Scott Storch
>Jazze Pha
>Dr. Dre
>Mr. Collipark
>The Neptunes
>Swizz Beatz
>Trackmasters
>Jermaine Dupri
>The Runners
>Cool and Dre
>Mannie Fresh
>Kanye West
>

i think with a lot of those artists, they found other ventures that made them more money compared to just making music. and they were able to be just as competitive and creative. music isn't their primary concern anymore. for example dre and headphones, diddy and vodka, jay-z apparel.

all the names listed above above are DJs and have used live musicians on their tracks. these new producers tho, i'm not even sure they'd know how to play a vinyl record or even track live instruments on their beats. real live instruments, not just a synth patch playing thru a weighted midi or pad.

With budgets drying up... the labels had to go with a diff route...

so the "writing camp" comes into play

instead of throwing 250k at timbo or Neptunes and "hope" for one song

I can pay 250k and put 50 hungry songwriters and producers in studios.. round robin for a week straight...

make 100+ songs and pick the best 12

which one do you think makes more economical sense...

then there are the dr luke or Tricky/Dream camps that are 5 co producers 10 singersongwriters with track records and a current sound... I'd pay them before i'd pay someone that wants to "dance all in the videos" lol

Luke just got 62 MILLION from sony...

There is also a different kinda producer.. the SUPERproducers were as big as they were because they were 1/2 artist.. Dre, Timbo, Ye, Neptunes, Teddy Riley.. shit even Darkchild talked on records... they had an ability to sell themselves that made them bigger than just "beats"

those Artist/Producers now...are in the EDM world... Guetta, Avicii, Skrillex.. they don't need to deal with "rap" bullshit to be successful and they are BIGGER than rap artists

EDIT: that being said... if timbo comes correct on monday with this Justin Timberlake new shit he's "Back" and Kanye is still a HUGE star super producer

tainted by branding and marketing.

A lot of "rap" fans, media etc do not care about quality it's all about what brand, logo etcetera is connected to it.

Producers started getting real big headed and greedy on their pricing.

And unlike anything else in rap music bias is least likely to display itself in beat making.
In normal terms if the beat bangs the beat bangs. The amount of great producers out there is scary and truth be told it comes down to the engineering.

I had an issue wit a producer who is not well known thinking I wanted to come up off his name, I'll never use a beat by him again.