*Puffy's opinion notwithstanding

and is it only due to his untimely passing?

classic debut, a 75% great double album, a rack of guest appearances and remixes and he's the greatest rapper of all time?

If you're from Brooklyn, I guess I understand. But Im from Harlem and I dont elevate Big L as an all time rap god

If you're not from Brooklyn, make your case for Big being the G.O.A.T

I know plenty of people who are hiphop heads and not just the type of people who automatically put Big and Pac at 1 and 2 who say Biggie is the best ever to do it.

I think there's an argument to be made. His short track record isn't his fault, obviously, but the material he DOES have has withstood the test of time and is mostly high quality.

As far as specific skills I think it's worth noting how effortlessly he flowed on every beat he was ever on. It's something to be said about his voice and personality on the mic no matter what type of track he was on, he fit it perfectly.

Lyrically he epitomized what the 90s were: hardcore, crack and murder rap while still being able to (somehow) appeal to the ladies with certain tracks without coming off corny, at all.

So yea, while I may not be one to say that he's the greatest ever, I think there's a very strong case to be made even considering his minimal material and I'm rarely mad at anyone who states he IS the greatest.

And to answer your question again, I've heard it from tons of hiphop heads outside of Brooklyn, too.

revisionism.

he was truly the king of NY but at the time of his death i'd say rakim/kane/krs/slick rick were still considered the best (especially ra)

B.I.G. was on top of the world when he passed but he wasn't on top of Rakim as far as G.O.A.T. If Canibus never said that line I think we would be having a different conversation.

>B.I.G. was on top of the world when he passed but he wasn't
>on top of Rakim as far as G.O.A.T. If Canibus never said that
>line I think we would be having a different conversation.

Exactly! That stupid ass line and peoples hatred for LL Cool J is one of the main reasons heads say what they say about Big

it takes time to deem someone the best of all time seriously so the fact that people didn't call Big that off the bat and now do is not revisionism, its the way shit works!

i disagree...

it didnt take time with rakim

it didnt take time with jordan

it didnt take time with MJ

the truth is...BIG made two albums. if he hadnt died he wouldnt have entered the convo. he was marketed into the conversation

Jordan is basketball, dont apply.

MJ was not the greatest entertainer when he was 5 years old, it took literally a lifetime.

and the Rakim, KRS and Kane's had the distinct advantage of being the first to do many things, Big came in an era where hip hop was not new to many, although to some it continued to be a new thing for years.


so you're argument is pretty feeble.

**your argument was "it takes time"

my point was all them dudes was recognized while ALIVE and still DOING IT. in fact ra was thrust into the convo after ONE ALBUM

they werent dead or retired...they were recognized as the GOAT while DOING IT

you can say its false all u want. go get any magazine from the time.

no one said BIG was the best.

wu came at big like he was a nobody. anybody ever come at Ra like that?

wasnt the best then and isnt the best now

**And MJ was 8 when he started and early 20s when thriller dropped. of course no one is gonna say a teen or a 8 yr old is the greatest. but as soon as he stepped out solo...it took 2 albums???

lol

>**your argument was "it takes time"
>
>my point was all them dudes was recognized while ALIVE and
>still DOING IT. in fact ra was thrust into the convo after ONE
>ALBUM
>
>they werent dead or retired...they were recognized as the GOAT
>while DOING IT


so all that king of NY talk was something just a few rap nerds were concerned about... yeah.


>
>you can say its false all u want. go get any magazine from
>the time.
>
>no one said BIG was the best.


LOOOOOOOL at referring to a magazine, I could give a fuck which one, as a barometer for who was the best at the time. and fuck going by the opinions of some jaded, headstrong heads (who just like today) cant acknowledge anything new as great without a caveat.

>
>wu came at big like he was a nobody. anybody ever come at Ra
>like that?


Kane almost did.


>
>wasnt the best then and isnt the best now
>
>**And MJ was 8 when he started and early 20s when thriller
>dropped. of course no one is gonna say a teen or a 8 yr old
>is the greatest. but as soon as he stepped out solo...it took
>2 albums???


thats 12 years. longer than Biggie was active.


>
>lol

>so all that king of NY talk was something just a few rap nerds
>were concerned about... yeah.

you can be king of NY (for a period) and still not be GOAT genius. in my first post i said he was K.O.N.Y.

>LOOOOOOOL at referring to a magazine, I could give a fuck
>which one, as a barometer for who was the best at the time.
>and fuck going by the opinions of some jaded, headstrong heads
>(who just like today) cant acknowledge anything new as great
>without a caveat.

man...i could give a fuck about a magazine either...but the shit was the UNANIMOUS opinion. if u said anybody other than ra-krs-slick rick-kool g or kane....everyone would look at funny. it wasnt no disputing it.

>>wu came at big like he was a nobody. anybody ever come at
>Ra
>>like that?
>
>
>Kane almost did.

almost...maybe...perhaps ..no!! shark niggas...saying BIG was living vicariously through UN

haha...catholic school boy


>thats 12 years. longer than Biggie was active.

again...by the time mike matured to serious artist... he was considered a great. prolly around the same time that bid died.

u still havent addressed why all the others were considered amongst the best out the gate

explain nas for instance

>and the Rakim, KRS and Kane's had the distinct advantage of
>being the first to do many things, Big came in an era where
>hip hop was not new to many, although to some it continued to
>be a new thing for years.

hip hop was on record for over 7 years by the time any of em dropped. why were THEY the ones with the opportunity to do new things...??

no one has come with a new style since them or big? did Andre 3000 do new shit after BIG?
lol

>so you're argument is pretty feeble.
those in glass houses

again...Big made a good first album (heightened by remixes and B-sides) that was borderline too commercial and a second album that was overly commercial. many of the "true" heads was on the fence not over his lyrical skill but his albums and puffy connection/marketing

>
>>and the Rakim, KRS and Kane's had the distinct advantage of
>>being the first to do many things, Big came in an era where
>>hip hop was not new to many, although to some it continued
>to
>>be a new thing for years.
>
>hip hop was on record for over 7 years by the time any of em
>dropped. why were THEY the ones with the opportunity to do
>new things...??


yes, things like regular nationwide and international tours, things like heavy TV and radio presence (in comparison to the past), things like the ability to make substantial money off their music and have it heard in places not heard in the past, yes.


>
>no one has come with a new style since them or big? did Andre
>3000 do new shit after BIG?
>lol


half of NY is still tryna rap like Biggie. Some of the most successful rappers of today have incorporated styles from Biggie.



>
>>so you're argument is pretty feeble.
>those in glass houses
>
>again...Big made a good first album (heightened by remixes and
>B-sides) that was borderline too commercial and a second album
>that was overly commercial. many of the "true" heads was on
>the fence not over his lyrical skill but his albums and puffy
>connection/marketing

you sound like mad head from '93. don't be mad cuz no one is taking your opinion seriously.

>yes, things like regular nationwide and international tours,
>things like heavy TV and radio presence (in comparison to the
>past), things like the ability to make substantial money off
>their music and have it heard in places not heard in the past,
>yes.

Run DMC, whodini, kurtis blow are laughing at u (1) and (2) we talking about RHYMING muhfucker...not success, popularity, going platinum. Stylistically Ra was a new beast and thats why he was the best. i didnt know what he looked like and he had the biggest records in NYC in 86

>
>half of NY is still tryna rap like Biggie. Some of the most
>successful rappers of today have incorporated styles from
>Biggie.

lol...prove it.

>>>so you're argument is pretty feeble.
>>those in glass houses

>you sound like mad head from '93. don't be mad cuz no one is
>taking your opinion seriously.

and you sound like a noob...i could give a fuck about what other people say or think...Ra is still the GOD MC...Nas is the still the second coming (another example to destroy your it takes time argument...NAS was considered one of the best as soon as illmatic dropped)

>i disagree...
>
>it didnt take time with rakim
>
>it didnt take time with jordan
>
>it didnt take time with MJ
>
>the truth is...BIG made two albums. if he hadnt died he
>wouldnt have entered the convo. he was marketed into the
>conversation

expose yourself as an ass...

who prolly was nowhere around

anyhow, i'll indulge your willful ignorance.

it took time for all those dudes to get recognized the way they are now

in fact, jordan is a great example. all that adoration he gets now? lol! he was shit on CRAZY early on. it's well documented. even the players didn't like his ass. the media talked about how he epitomized everything wrong with the nba. don't sit here and ask for links or some dumb shit, you're unwashed ass has access to the same internet i do. so after you hit the soup kitchen for a hot shower and a sandwich, look it up. the jordan knob slobbing in mass quantities came when he started winning rings.

rakim was acknowledged as a ground breaking artist when he came out but there were many who felt like he wasn't fuckin with krs even then. in fact rakim didn't really, truly reach god status until his offspring started popping up and he was rightly recognized as the father to a style that would become prominent in the 90's.

the bottom line was these two were major from jump but you're delusional if you think they had that god status in their youth. that shit came much later.

good grief i literally laughed out loud when i read those lines

>anyhow, i'll indulge your willful ignorance.
>
>it took time for all those dudes to get recognized the way
>they are now
>
>in fact, jordan is a great example. all that adoration he gets
>now? lol! he was shit on CRAZY early on. it's well documented.
>even the players didn't like his ass. the media talked about
>how he epitomized everything wrong with the nba. don't sit
>here and ask for links or some dumb shit, you're unwashed ass
>has access to the same internet i do. so after you hit the
>soup kitchen for a hot shower and a sandwich, look it up. the
>jordan knob slobbing in mass quantities came when he started
>winning rings.
(1) you sound gay and real white

(2) this how u full of shit. jordan was the man way before he won rings. did he catch backlash from older players YES... but did people annoint him after the 63 points in Larry Bords ugly mug??? YES. when the Jordans dropped forget it!

i dont have to look it up...i was there!


>rakim was acknowledged as a ground breaking artist when he
>came out but there were many who felt like he wasn't fuckin
>with krs even then. in fact rakim didn't really, truly reach
>god status until his offspring started popping up and he was
>rightly recognized as the father to a style that would become
>prominent in the 90's.

again...flat out BS. People said he was the best from the get and people actually said KRS was WACK after South Bronx...people didnt think he was MC to be reckoned with until 'the bridge is over' dropped. South Bronx was a lil something...but AINT NOBODY say KRS was in his league then. it was ra, kane, g rap and slick rick.

YOU WERENT THERE - revisionist
edit: rakim's "imitators" were immediate

EPMD had to address it on album number 2 (1989/1990) - "that we sound like the R and our music was wack"

people bit his style immediately. cats were screaming like run and LL before ra.

honestly how long u been listening...cuz u damn sure wasnt there
>the bottom line was these two were major from jump but you're
>delusional if you think they had that god status in their
>youth. that shit came much later.

not true at all...people starting saying ra fell off after the 3rd album. how could u fall from someplace u hadnt reached yet?

go back to commenting on another grown mans beard faggot

there's no argument otherwise.

but BIG was the best. maybe there's a walter payton/bo jackson analogue to be drawn.

_______________________________
Trouble/Don Cannon -Green Light
Evidence - Cats & Dogs
Phonte - Charity Starts At Home


ॐ

krs and rakim are obviously two of the best/greatest rappers ever, and i'm not slighting them. i just found biggie more engaging, human and funny.

>krs and rakim are obviously two of the best/greatest rappers
>ever, and i'm not slighting them. i just found biggie more
>engaging, human and funny.

fair enough, Big had a humorous and entertainment value vs most other great mcs seriousness and I do think an analogy of him to Bo Jackson is on point

Jay is the most successful but wouldn't call him the greatest either. To be the greatest you have to win championships, Jay lost his only major battle to a non battle rapper (Nas) and didn't step to the challenge against the true GOAT LL while he goes back and forth with all these mediocre cats

I know the argument is that he only has two albums, so how can he be better than those with six or seven. But I feel like he did more with those two albums than anyone else has with their entire discography, Jay-Z included.

He could do every time of song, and do it better than whoever you think it's the nicest at it, or at least AS good. Storytelling? Check. R&B crossover shit? Check. Club joints? Check. Straight boom bap for the heads? Hell yes.

Big also has the benefit of not being around to tarnish his only legacy. Who knows what his career would've looked like had he not been killed. Would he be a mogul like Jay? A legend who's time has come and gone but he doesn't know it like LL? An icon with a super loyal fanbase but largely ignored by the mainstream like Nas? An act that tours and sells music based on nostalgia like Wu?

Who knows.

But he's the best to ever do it, IMO.

>I know the argument is that he only has two albums, so how
>can he be better than those with six or seven. But I feel like
>he did more with those two albums than anyone else has with
>their entire discography, Jay-Z included.
>
>He could do every time of song, and do it better than whoever
>you think it's the nicest at it, or at least AS good.
>Storytelling? Check. R&B crossover shit? Check. Club joints?
>Check. Straight boom bap for the heads? Hell yes.
>
>Big also has the benefit of not being around to tarnish his
>only legacy. Who knows what his career would've looked like
>had he not been killed. Would he be a mogul like Jay? A legend
>who's time has come and gone but he doesn't know it like LL?
>An icon with a super loyal fanbase but largely ignored by the
>mainstream like Nas? An act that tours and sells music based
>on nostalgia like Wu?
>
>Who knows.
>
>But he's the best to ever do it, IMO.


Spot on.

>I know the argument is that he only has two albums, so how
>can he be better than those with six or seven. But I feel like
>he did more with those two albums than anyone else has with
>their entire discography, Jay-Z included.
>
>He could do every time of song, and do it better than whoever
>you think it's the nicest at it, or at least AS good.
>Storytelling? Check. R&B crossover shit? Check. Club joints?
>Check. Straight boom bap for the heads? Hell yes.
>
>Big also has the benefit of not being around to tarnish his
>only legacy. Who knows what his career would've looked like
>had he not been killed. Would he be a mogul like Jay? A legend
>who's time has come and gone but he doesn't know it like LL?
>An icon with a super loyal fanbase but largely ignored by the
>mainstream like Nas? An act that tours and sells music based
>on nostalgia like Wu?
>
>Who knows.
>
>But he's the best to ever do it, IMO.


do it all the best? Social commentary better than Pac? Any political tracks you can name he did better than dead prez, PE or Immortal Technique. Did he win grammies like Meth did with All I Need that appealed to street cats and females. People try way too hard when it comes to Big and there was nothing incredible about his stage show. the U.S. is a obeast society filled with ugly people with low self esteem (another reason why many hate LL cause they don't relate to his being fit) so Big was there hero, I don't know one fat person who Big is not their fav rapper

commentary suggests you're not the best judge of music.

>commentary suggests you're not the best judge of music.

that fact that you are assuming what my concept of social commentary is shows that you're not a very good judge of peoples perspective or a good mind reader

commentary' of some of his peers.

I guess I'm bad at reading what people write : /

and there is nothing on record to prove other wise. of course unless your going to use the intelelctual deconstruction method of what his raps elucidate about the environment and commmunity he was representing

and please don't come in here with the lines from "Juicy" or "Sky's the Limit" speaking to dreaming and accomplishing your goals in a racist society

The reason people like Biggie is because they're fat, and the reason people don't like LL is because they're jealous he's in shape and they're not?

And I thought I've heard every silly hip hop argument...

>The reason people like Biggie is because they're fat, and the
>reason people don't like LL is because they're jealous he's in
>shape and they're not?
>
>And I thought I've heard every silly hip hop argument...

just an observation I've made. Yes people are jealous of other people, hard to believe huh? And yes fat people like people they can relate to, hard to imagine huh? Let me ask you this, you know a fat hip hop head that don't like Biggie?

>

people like who they can relate to, that's just a fact jack

How can I relate to Biggie Smalls, a fat, dark skinned dude from Brooklyn on a personal level? I just think he made captivating music.

>they can relate to, hard to imagine huh? Let me ask you this,
>you know a fat hip hop head that don't like Biggie?
>

i don't know anyone who doesn't like biggie

LMFAO, lol that's funny man.

>the U.S. is a obeast society
>filled with ugly people with low self esteem (another reason
>why many hate LL cause they don't relate to his being fit) so
>Big was there hero, I don't know one fat person who Big is not
>their fav rapper

Damn, you're really killing your own argument here.

People probably don't relate to LL because he strayed the true course and became wack shortly after the time Biggie was put on. Since then he's made some good songs, but albums? FOH.

Obesity might be a problem in the States, but this is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen on this site.

People champion looks that they don't possess. Most people in the entertainment biz are sporting 5-star looks, and yeah, that's part of what made Biggie dope as fuck.

He was fucking ugly and nasty but was he was himself. He had a personality that could captivate a room. Everyone fed off that energy. Including Pac who was more visually captivating.

But seriously. Why are you judging people's opinions of what they like based on what they look like? Specifically, on a site like this. Everyone here is a music nerd to some degree.

Next are you going to tell me Lil Wayne > Big because he's not as fat? Is Nas your favorite because you think he's "cute"?

______________________________________________________________________________

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"
-George Clinton

>I know the argument is that he only has two albums, so how
>can he be better than those with six or seven. But I feel like
>he did more with those two albums than anyone else has with
>their entire discography, Jay-Z included.
>
>He could do every time of song, and do it better than whoever
>you think it's the nicest at it, or at least AS good.
>Storytelling? Check. R&B crossover shit? Check. Club joints?
>Check. Straight boom bap for the heads? Hell yes.
>
>Big also has the benefit of not being around to tarnish his
>only legacy. Who knows what his career would've looked like
>had he not been killed. Would he be a mogul like Jay? A legend
>who's time has come and gone but he doesn't know it like LL?
>An icon with a super loyal fanbase but largely ignored by the
>mainstream like Nas? An act that tours and sells music based
>on nostalgia like Wu?
>
>Who knows.
>
>But he's the best to ever do it, IMO.

Big a better storyteller than Nas? Word? lol. And Wu Tang has been making some of the hottest hip hop these past few years, well, Ghost and Rae at least, many fans are still enjoying the output of Wu affiliated releases, Cuban Linx 2, Apollo Kids, Blackout 2, Shaolin Vs Wu are all solid releases better than most other hip hp coming out

>Big a better storyteller than Nas? Word? lol.

He's in the same league, IMO.

> And Wu Tang has
>been making some of the hottest hip hop these past few years,
>well, Ghost and Rae at least, many fans are still enjoying the
>output of Wu affiliated releases, Cuban Linx 2, Apollo Kids,
>Blackout 2, Shaolin Vs Wu are all solid releases better than
>most other hip hp coming out

I never said they weren't good, but it's all based on people's yearning for yesteryear, album titles and all.

>>Big a better storyteller than Nas? Word? lol.
>
>He's in the same league, IMO.

well I never heard Big do something like I Gave You Power, Rewind, 2nd Childhood, Undying Love, Money is My Bitch that impressed me like Nas and I feel Big is completely incapable of doing a collaborative effort like Distant Relatives like Nas did with Marley. Nas is half man half amazing, Big has never done something where I've said to myself I wish I could do that because he is pretty simple and basic compared to the greatest, did I mention his stage show, a key factor in being a great mc was WACK!

>well I never heard Big do something like I Gave You Power,
>Rewind, 2nd Childhood, Undying Love, Money is My Bitch

I Got A Story To Tell
Niggas Bleed
Somebody Gotta Die
The Warning
Gimme The Loot

>did I mention his stage show, a key factor in being
>a great mc was WACK!

I only saw him live once, and I was 14, so my memory may be bad, but dude's reputation was that he was a pretty ill stage performer. I mean, since you were hung up on awards earlier, he did win Best Live Performer at the infamous 95 Source awards. Most people I know who saw him say they came away feeling as though they got their moneys worth.

>>>Big a better storyteller than Nas? Word? lol.

Yes, he is, actually. Nas is fantastic, the second best storyteller, but it really takes a song like "Shootouts" to better compare. Concept songs don't always fit the bill.

>I feel Big is completely incapable
>of doing a collaborative effort like Distant Relatives like
>Nas did with Marley.

I fail how to see how this is relative to the discussion at hand. Nas is my GOAT but that album wasn't very listenable for me. It was too reggae influenced and some of it wasn't as good as it was getting praised. Overall, how does one's ability to work in a group setting correlate to the title of GOAT?


>Big has
>never done something where I've said to myself I wish I could
>do that because he is pretty simple and basic compared to the
>greatest

Seemingly simple =/= simple. That's the point. It's supposed to appear effortless. There's nothing simple about Big. He was as complex as Nas has ever been, though less poetic at times.

>did I mention his stage show, a key factor in being
>a great mc was WACK!

Since I'm at the library I can't search for the link, but will someone please post a YouTube of Big killing a show that him and Nas are both present for? Nas spits some shit off 'It Was Written' to mediocre response from the crowd (Nas's presence is weak), and then Big crushes and steals the show.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have Big as my number one, but I'll be damned if he wasn't close while he was alive. And he continues to have a strong presence in the game with his legacy of only two albums and Jay-Z vamping his whole style.

>If you're from Brooklyn, I guess I understand. But Im from
>Harlem and I dont elevate Big L as an all time rap god

Big L's career isn't even in the same universe as Biggie's, so the comparison isn't fair. I'd hope you don't think Big L was a all time rap god, same borough or not. Same way I'd hope people from Queens don't say Freaky Tah was a legend.

No diss, I fuck with his music, but he didn't touch the game 1/10th as much as Big, nor did he make music as timeless or impactful. His first album is cool, but it's not fuckin with either Biggie album. Not even close.

http://57thave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Lord-Nez-Big-L-mural-500x375.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PuB0XNbuX6A/Sp1M9v0fzrI/AAAAAAAAAR8/SvmCBv7iNIc/s400/IMG_6320.JPG

Big L was from DITC and one of the nicest spitters of that time as witnessed in countless freestyles

his rep was bigger than his recorded body of music

he embodied new york shit at one point in time much like biggie did

Cuz now I gotta debate why Big L isn't in that class as if I don't like the guy's music, and I do.

But I just don't think his impact was as significant as Biggie. Maybe in NY, I dunno. I can't and won't speak on that, I'm not from there. But hip hop is bigger than the five boroughs.

_______________________________
Trouble/Don Cannon -Green Light
Evidence - Cats & Dogs
Phonte - Charity Starts At Home


ॐ

and thats not to downplay their talent or phenomenal records but...

big
big l
big pun
tupac

etc etc etc

dying young just helps.

big l was respected as a dope rapper, but there's no comparison to biggie. the guy didn't even have a record deal and was putting out vinyl independently on flamboyant shortly before his death. he was basically the first mixtape rapper.

And if Biggie hadn't died Hov woulda never been King of NY

Simple math, 'tard

Biggie died before Big L. How did Big L dying help make Biggie the King of NY?

simple math, though

mase was definitely involved

.

In his response to LL. I'm under the impression that hardly anyone under the age of maybe 25 even cares about that.

I'm not mad at anybody who still considers him the greatest, but I don't feel that way anymore.
__
I don't like the beat anymore because its just a loop. ALC didn't FLIP IT ENOUGH!

Flip it enough? Flip these. Flip off. Go flip some f*cking burgers.(c)Kno

Allied State of the National Electric Beat Treaty Organization (NEBTO)

I consider biggie as the best 'all rounder' in that the dude was capable of everything from an mc perspective to a high level!

>I consider biggie as the best 'all rounder' in that the dude
>was capable of everything from an mc perspective to a high
>level!
>
>

I would tell young mcs if you want to study someone's stage show, stay away from Biggie, he wasn't that great. If the young mc is heavy set, I would tell him to study Chubb Rock or Heavy D's stage show, lol.

>*Puffy's opinion notwithstanding
>
>and is it only due to his untimely passing?
>
>classic debut, a 75% great double album, a rack of guest
>appearances and remixes and he's the greatest rapper of all
>time?
>
>If you're from Brooklyn, I guess I understand. But Im from
>Harlem and I dont elevate Big L as an all time rap god
>
>If you're not from Brooklyn, make your case for Big being the
>G.O.A.T

can't he's nowhere near that status, not even close. How is he the greatest when when he was alive Wu Tang and Death Row was running shit? I just don't get it. Hell yeah his death saved his legacy cause the direction he was going I don't see him lasting long for 13 albums like LL Cool J

>

If Biggie made Exit 13 everyone would say it's a classic, now you understand where I'm coming from with Biggie

he didnt make much, but he also died before 27.

Biggie will forever be a legend in rap to me.

he has set such a standard for MCing that I think it is arguable that no one has eclipsed it completely yet.

so while the no. 1 spot is always a debate, Biggie definitely has the credentials to be in that conversation, regardless if you're from New Orleans, Mexico City or Brooklyn .

>he has set such a standard for MCing that I think it is
>arguable that no one has eclipsed it completely yet.
>
>so while the no. 1 spot is always a debate, Biggie definitely
>has the credentials to be in that conversation, regardless if
>you're from New Orleans, Mexico City or Brooklyn .

now you make another great point. While everyone from Em, Nas, Keith Murray, Mystikal, Fat Joe, Pac and COUNTLESS others say how LL was they favorite mc at one time or another, all these wack mcs out now, ask them who they fav was that they studied and tried to emulate. You hear names like Biggie Jay Z and 50, I think that says something, what about you? Basically if you take Big out of the equation, hip hop is not hurting to me, in fact it's in a better position. Now take away a Chuck D, Rakim, KRS, LL, Nas, Wu Tang............hip hop misses out on a lot. They type of rapper Big was come and go often, that's just my opinion. I was impressed by Ready to Die but didn't pay too much to Big (according to billboard many others didn't either) cause like I said earlier Death Row and Wu Tang was running shit while he was alive

>>he has set such a standard for MCing that I think it is
>>arguable that no one has eclipsed it completely yet.
>>
>>so while the no. 1 spot is always a debate, Biggie
>definitely
>>has the credentials to be in that conversation, regardless
>if
>>you're from New Orleans, Mexico City or Brooklyn .
>
>now you make another great point. While everyone from Em, Nas,
>Keith Murray, Mystikal, Fat Joe, Pac and COUNTLESS others say
>how LL was they favorite mc at one time or another, all these
>wack mcs out now, ask them who they fav was that they studied
>and tried to emulate. You hear names like Biggie Jay Z and 50,
>I think that says something, what about you? Basically if you
>take Big out of the equation, hip hop is not hurting to me, in
>fact it's in a better position.

really? its in a better position without his storytelling, charisma, lyricism, effortless flow and cinematic voice. ok.


Now take away a Chuck D,
>Rakim, KRS, LL, Nas, Wu Tang............hip hop misses out on
>a lot.

that is completely subjective even though you have potentially strong arguments with many of those.


They type of rapper Big was come and go often, that's
>just my opinion.

then why has someone yet to do what he did better?


I was impressed by Ready to Die but didn't
>pay too much to Big (according to billboard many others didn't
>either) cause like I said earlier Death Row and Wu Tang was
>running shit while he was alive



I dont know what else to say to you besides, no.

Went to school in Philly with a lot of cats from thoroughout the East Coast, and they certainly believed Biggie was the greatest ever.

and his untimely death only added to it.

considering he was the yin to pac's yang and pac also was elevated to infamy the year before - it worked. It's not the truth however, I mean how would anyone in hiphop decide the greatest ever... too much to choose from.

yes people latched on...

but people are stupid.

They will follow anything.

Let's say you don't think he's the GOAT. Do you not even think he belongs in the conversation?

He wasn't the first MC to not write anything down.. many MC's did that. Puff was just a master of hype and promotion.

I don't care if he wrote them out on a Light Brite. Shit was nice as fuck.

And again, in a lot of people's eyes, mine included, two albums was all he needed, because he accomplished more in those two albums than most artists are able to their entire careers.

Yet everyone was so vulnerable as a sign of respect they ran with it.
where it went from there... well...

I think had he lived we'd be talking about him like many do Jigga today. Biggie really had a flair for sounding gravy on everything he recorded.

prollem is he never really got to live to reap the benefit

when he was alive but it definitely wasnt the general consensus

Before Notorious B.I.G. died people were hyped about every song he put out or guest appeared on but calling him the greatest rapper to ever live was far from their minds; but afterwards this saying spread like wildfire and I couldn't believe people were saying this; but that's the way people basically let events and emotion get into the whole idea of what makes a rapper the greatest...death...really?

in the conversation but I still hold Ra, KRS, BDK in that 1 spot which rotates from time to time depending on my mood lol.

However, I think by now Jay has surpassed Big as far as influence and impact right now. I know its weird saying it but if we're being honest its true. However Big edges Jay just because Big was KONY first and Jay took (literally) what Big was doing and ran with it.

In this same vein though of GOAT there are ppl who feel Pac is the GOAT. So its not far fetched for ppl to think Big is the GOAT.

and no MC from a group should be in anyone's top 15 IMO. the top 15 is for those that held albums down for dolo with a few guest spots here and there.

01. Nas
02. Jay-Z
03. Rakim
04. KRS-One
05. Slick Rick
06. Kool G Rap
07. LL Cool J
08. Ice Cube
09. BIG
10. 2Pac
11. Scarface
12. BDK
13. Redman
14. Pharaohe Monch
15. Chuck D
16. Andre 3000
17. Posdnuos
18. Dave (Trugoy)
19. Black Thought
20. Common

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr5fx4dLREw

That's right Smoke DZA holds the crown right now

Did he get their OK?

I'm surprised a crew as notoriously stingy about biting hasn't said one word about this. Perhaps he's not on their radar yet.

So its not actually biting rza or gza. It just looks like it

Add to the fact that people simply REFUSE to believe that LAD had a ton of filler on it and the whole Biggie is the greatest meme is puzzling.

I can't think of any other activity where this would fly.

Like if a dude won 2 NBA titles and then died, or an actor winning two oscars etc, there are no grounds for calling that person the greatest anything.

Objectively the answer has to be Jay-Z whether you hate him or not simply because he's done it all, repeatedly for the past 15 years as a RELEVANT artist.

Biggies death unfortunately robbed him of competing with that.

************************

>Add to the fact that people simply REFUSE to believe that LAD
>had a ton of filler on it and the whole Biggie is the greatest
>meme is puzzling.
>
>I can't think of any other activity where this would fly.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/lists/100-greatest-guitarists-of-all-time-19691231/jimi-hendrix-19691231

P.S. I'm not interested in debating whether or not Hendrix is the best ever (nor do I care if he is or isn't, really). Just pointing out that this kind of thinking exists elsewhere.

Biggie, surprisingly really wasn't.

That holds an insane amount of weight in my book.

Jay-Z and Nas are routinely brought up by the likes of KRS, Chuck-D, DOC etc.

There's a reason for that.

************************

Everyone from that era wanted to work with him.

Even the people who "hated" on him back in the day (his competitors: Nas, Rae, Jeru etc.) now admit he was nice as fuck. The only ones I haven't seen get off their stance was Boot Camp, and for all I know, they might've, I just haven't seen it.

Big Daddy Kane has talked about how his jaw hit the floor when Mister Cee first played him some Biggie.

Kool Moe Dee raves about him in that book he put out ranking rappers.

and had he not died he may have gone on to be the greatest ever.

But lets keep it real, his achievements are what exactly?

Two great albums.

You know how many emcees have at least two great albums?

I love Big, but he died too soon to be in the running. Pac has more of a claim to that title than Big ever will.

************************

Maybe half a dozen, at best. And they also have some wackness in there. Big was 2/2. Throw in all the guest verses he kilt.

Outkast
NWA
Ice Cube
Nas
Jay-Z
EPMD
Rakim
Big Daddy Kane
Tupac
Mobb Deep
LL Cool J
Dr Dre
DMX
Common
Redman
Ghostface
Rae
Wu-Tang
...

I mean, half a dozen? I could go on for days.

************************

>Outkast

We're talking group vs. solo act, so it's a tough comparison. Andre's in the discussion though, and if someone says he's #1, I don't call them crazy.

>NWA

Ehhhhhh. I dunno if the sophmore is great.

>Ice Cube

Yup.

>Nas

Yup.

>Jay-Z

No, but that's me. I do think Jay's in the conversation.

>EPMD

They have great albums, but I never see either dude reference as a GOAT. And their prime was before my time, so I'm not a fair judge perhaps.

>Rakim

Yup.

>Big Daddy Kane

Yup.

>Tupac

Yup.

>Mobb Deep

Yes, but again, the whole group vs. solo. P's a personal favorite but I'd have a hard time top 10ing dude.

>LL Cool J

Ehhhh.

>Dr Dre

Album wise, sure.

>DMX

LOL fuck outta here. Those albums were great at the time, but they don't hold up well AT ALL. I like X though. He's an important hip hop figure.

>Common

Hmmm.

>Redman

Yup.

>Ghostface

On the fence.

>Rae

Two? No. Too soon to say about OB4CL2.

>Wu-Tang

Not a fair comparison, IMO.

>I mean, half a dozen? I could go on for days.

Half dozen may have been a misstatement. But it's not like it's 20 either. Not at the level of those two albums.

Anyway, my beef with your stance, and many others, isn't that you don't think Biggie is the best. There is no one right answer to the question of who the greatest rapper is. There are about 10 that I'll accept.

But I take issue with people who suggest Biggie isn't in the conversation. That those of us who feel that way are out to lunch or drinking some media or Sean Combs Kool-Aid. Dude was ILL and changed rap music forever.

Radio and mama said knock you out are unquestionably great. Id add mr smith too.

>>Ghostface
>
>On the fence.
>


WHAT?!?!?!?!

he's overrated as hell to me. i don't get why he gets a pass for his catalog. most people have him in their top 5.

>Objectively the answer has to be Jay-Z whether you hate him or
>not simply because he's done it all, repeatedly for the past
>15 years as a RELEVANT artist.

If we're talking album filler, Jay-Z's career is ripe with it.

LAD is better than any Jay-Z album, IMO.

But Jay-Z's career reached greater heights than Biggie's did.

Biggie died.

That's unfortunate, but facts is facts.

And BP, RD and AG are in my opinion better albums than LAD. But thats a story for another day.

************************

How many wack Biggie songs are there? Fuck, for that matter, wack verses?

Jay-Z has an order of magnitude more songs than Biggie has. So it's only logical that Jay will have many, many more wack songs.

So does Nas.

So does Rakim.

It's the law of averages.

************************

And I make 60 songs, and 30 are nice, then we're equal or you're better? Shouldn't you be held in higher esteem because your batting average sons the fuck out of mine?

Come on thats retarded. Thats not the way statistics work, sorry.

By that logic, I could drop a hot single and dip. And you'd be fine calling me the greatest right? Coz my "batting average" is ridiculous at that point right?

No.

************************

How many songs are on those two albums combined? 40? (yes, I'm too lazy to look lol)

He was all over the Junior M.A.F.I.A. album. He was guest versing his ass off for his entire career.

Let's not act as if we got a six track EP from dude.

Thats what happens when you've made that many albums over that period of time.

You can throw in guest verses, Jay wins there too because again, he's been on a ton more.

His achievements are basically insurmountable by Big coz Big died.

And I know I'm harping on Jay here but you could replace Jay with Nas and Nas' achievments will still shit on Biggies.

He died man.

End of.

************************

On a verse for verse, technical, "damn she said _______" kind of level, she's probably Top 3 and arguable. But not only did she only have ONE solo album, but that was driven by her singing on it...so I might say it's the best album made by a female rapper, but probably not even the "best female Rap album" because it was half singing.

Lauryn #3

one with lauren on the goddamned cover.

*jokes*

it's not that serious, but i just don't see how those two are nicer than lauren on any level.

Bo's active years were probably greater than any RB in history, and he still leads the all time list in yards per carry. BUT....folks still see it like "he COULD HAVE been the greatest" because he didn't have enough time to continue doing what he did.

So I see Lauryn the exact same way. Verse for verse? Quotes? Flow and delivery when focused back then? Yeah, we were listening to the best female raps ever. But judging her as an artist and on her entire catalog and output? Eh...it takes more than just one album to be seen as "the GREAAAATEST" even if that one album is better than everybody else's catalog. Plus, as I said, it was driven by the singing.

>one with lauren on the goddamned cover.
>
>*jokes*
>
>it's not that serious, but i just don't see how those two are
>nicer than lauren on any level.

all their rhymes.

Which, I know, is opening a whole new can of worms...

lyte says she wrote everything except like one song or so, and i've never heard anything about latifah NOT writing her stuff. until i see proof... esp with lyte since she wasn't just dope on her first 2-3 albums, then nothing (like latifah). "bad as i wanna b" is her 5th album, 4th dope album imho.

He was saying Lauryn wasn't the best female MC ever and I basically told him;

technically skilled MC, she is without a doubt the best.

but there are other female MCs like MC Lyte that I can understand people naming ahead of her because of her small catalogue.

male rappers in the same way that R&B singers are close to being equal on both genders. But it's unfair to all the legendary female rappers, even Latifah, who put out waaaaaaay more material, and classic material. I'd say Lauryn's better than Da Brat, but even Brat had way more material and classic RAP songs.

Is Biggie overrated? Let's check what Biggie said in a song, "You're nobody till somebody kills you" yup, that sums it all up for him, you can close the thread now
PEACE

2 albums ain't enough, I think people just bought into the hype and crowned his ass.

Maybe with more time, he could've been the GOAT, but there are too many other deserving emcees for him to be it.

I'm from Brooklyn and nobody was talking that G.O.A.T. shit until after he passed, and nobody considered Pac to be the greatest either.

BIG was one of the first, I say one of for arguments sake, he's the first that I can think of...one of the first lyricists that was able to capture the mainstream consumers

He could drop a track like Unbelievable for hip-hop heads, turn around and drop Juicy, One More Chance, for the radio, turn around and drop Gimme The Loot, for the hardcore heads, drop BIG Poppa for the Ladies, etc...

rinse, wash, repeat on the 2nd album

and I never got the feeling like he was dumbing it ALL the way down to do it

his early demise also never gave him an opportunity to decline, both of his albums were classics

when you list acts like
Kane
KRS
Rakim

these guys were lyricists first, but never had success in the mainstream, i.e. does your momma know who they are?

and, we saw their decline towards the end of their careers

that's why BIG is considered the GOAT

>and I never got the feeling like he was dumbing it ALL the way
>down to do it

Exactly - Big was spittin even on his club bangers. The topic wouldn't be as hardcore, and the beat would be more mainstream, but he never simplified his flow just to make it more accessable. And people at the club would STILL (and still do today) recite entire Biggie verses along with the song.

I think Jay-Z managed to do that on a few of his biggest hits (Big Pimpin, H to the Izzo, Give it to Me, etc.) but on others his flow is definitely dumbed down. I don't think anyone else is anywhere close to Biggie in that category.

I also don't think Big gets enough credit for his stories. I mean if you break down the lyrics in Niggas Bleed or Somebodies Gotta Die the way he's able to progress the plot with foreshadowing and other characters is just crazy...

he and Snoop IMO are the only two who really strike me as lyricists that managed to sell themselves without selling out

Snoop, a lyricist, I mean you could make the argument I guess, but the problem is there were alot of MCs in the West that I would say were way more lyrical than Snoop, compared to BIG who I could see holding his own against any MC in regards to lyrics...

Jay had a moment there where he could have made a case, but some of his albums just don't hold up to being classics. If he had walked away after the Black album I think he would have had a stronger argument for GOAT, but now, nah

It's that whole Jordan on the Wizards shit that everybody predicted would happen. Same with Ice Cube...many of us feel that if he had died or just retired in 94-96, he would have been seen as a straight legend and nothing near a joke...but folks count the "bad" albums against him and all other artists who decline.

In our culture, a lot of our icons died at an early age

Marilyn
James Dean
Jimmy Hendrix
etc...

It might not be fair, but that's the way it is
We didn't watch them get old and wrinkly
They will always be remembered at the height of their careers

Same with BIG
He didn't put out a handful of okay albums, and 2 classics
He put out 2 classics

If you cut Jay's career down to his best 2 albums I still don't think he'd be on BIG's level
Let's say Reasonable Doubt and The Black Album
and then nothing
no movies, no clothing line, no 40/40s, no record label, etc...
Just those 2 albums aren't enough, to me, to be called the GOAT
Jay has been able to do alot of things well, not great
and his career has benefitted from that ability
if we're talking strictly music
strictly MCing
hell no
but when you factor in all the other things he's been able to do
maybe
so, he's actually benefitted from having a lengthy career
because if his catalogue went Resonable Doubt, In My Lifetime
are we having this discussion
I think his career has even helped the way Reasonable Doubt is perceived now

and his impact is still felt.

vocally he did it all and was scary versatile his story telling game was as good as anybody period.

Movie was made about dude that alone says and speaks volumes.

dude was the Kunte Kinte of Bad Boy and all made coin off the Brother.

Puffy knew he struck gold with Biggie.

Still to this day.

>If you're from Brooklyn, I guess I understand. But Im from
>Harlem and I dont elevate Big L as an all time rap god
>
>If you're not from Brooklyn, make your case for Big being the
>G.O.A.T

the best ever
i distinctly remember chicks at my high school commenting on how they cried when pac died but didn't really give a fuck when big died
granted these were females talking but imo LAD was geared HEAVILY toward chicks and the commercial market so it is what it is
he's prolly top 5 tho

Pac was a hot martyr, Pac's 'ascension' to being 'Best Rapper Ever' came long after Big was dead.

even tho biggies last album was basically a pop album
dudes were on pac too

smh

lots of them. but generically speaking, i ALWAYS see hella people coming into Tupac posts taking shots at his legacy saying he was whack, most overrated of all-time, he's not that great of an MC, his legacy is blown out of proportion cuz of his death, people will clown on his fanbase, etc...but you won't see it so much with BIG.

Is it because he took the higher ground during the beef? maybe.

Did BIG exploded onto the scene and take hip-hop by storm? yes.

"one more chance" vs. "i get around?" it's a wash.

But i swear people act like Pac was a nobody before he did all eyez on me...which sold 10 mil, first double-album in hip-hop, hit after hit, recorded in 2 weeks, fresh outta jail. Even if you want to discount his death row days he still accomplished more in his (that would make it) 4 year career than most artists in hip-hop. some 2pac fans liked him even MORE before death row.

i'm still unsure why you would add this post to a thread full of people saying biggie was overrated.

ppl like jay, puff,and the ruff ryders praying at the shrine of Biggie while producing hits and influencing public perception
ppl actually started believing biggie was rated higher than pac in the late 90s/early 2000s

>
>ppl actually started believing biggie was rated higher than
>pac in the late 90s/early 2000s
>

i can see why people would think that because i think artists and songs were judged by a different criteria compared to today. but looking at their careers now after all that's happened in hip-hop for better or worse, i don't see how people can really say BIG is the GOAT or even better than tupac. better lyricist, better first album, top 5 pac songs vs. top 5 BIG songs, i can see why people would argue that.

BIG's dope, no doubt. but not GOAT. CMC had a good arguement about BIG accomplishing alot in his short career, but he didn't accomplish more than Tupac. both died around the same age. BIG didn't even accomplish more in his short 2 year career (alive) what 2pac accomplished his first 2 (solo) years...

For one....most folks on the West Coast never held Pac as our #1 artist like how Jay has been for NY since like 2001 or even earlier. I won't say we saw Snoop as #1 since he only had Doggystyle up to Pac's death, but Cube was DEFINITELY higher than Pac was. So if the entire coast died with Pac, that shows that he had a MAJOR impact in his last 1-2 years in the game.

The East Coast was in a much better position in 96-97 than the West was...so with his death, it didn't stop their impact b/c they finally re-programmed their style to make hits, with Biggie being one of the catalysts.

With influence n all...I'd say Pac had more influence image wise, not just from a bandana and bald head, but from his depth and two sides (gangsta/thug vs political, conscious, aware)...while Biggie had an influence in how to make (East Coast) hits. I'd even say Pac had more influence with delivereeeee (see what I did there) while Big had more impact lyrically.

while i don't agree, his people resonated with the masses, he was immensely influential and he embodied "realness" to many people.

personally, i don't think the music is there. to me, makaveli and me against the world are his best albums, and neither are spectacular (and i bought 2pacalypse the day it dropped, so i was checking for him since "brenda's got a baby" and "if my homie calls"). pac was the GOAT rap star in terms of merging real life and music, but people don't even remember or know most of the tracks off his first two albums. you can't say that about anyone else in the GOAT convo.

meant his "music" resonated with the masses.

This notion has to be more of a "We Live In Brooklyn" sort of thing. Objectively looking at the situation I'm hard pressed to place him at #1 top of the charts.

THere is no doubt that his untimely passing set off (along with that of Tupac) a chain reaction that forever altered the landscape of hip hop music.

Consider for a moment the iconic artists that came in their wake and ask yourself could they have garnered the same shine with Biggie & Tupac on the scene beside them??

The Greatest Ever had the greatest acceptance speech for a hip hop award on the BET Hip hop awards last night

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i just think it all comes down to the bullshit east vs west rap wars of the mid nineties. the argument dominated hip hop and people tended to take sides.. and as pac and biggie were the figureheads for each side of the beef it became which one of the two was better which became which one of the two was the goat. neither of them are, and if it wasn't for the media saturation of the two of them as rivals and their deaths they wouldn't have been elevated to these levels. very few have had their impact on the mtv/non hip hop heads interpretation of hip hop up until their deaths. after them sure many have, but before no one had, the whole beef thing brought more people into hip hop than anything else ever has. as far as true hip hop heads, who had been listening before it became front page news for the beef and shootings and bullshit, i don't think anyone heard either of them and thought they where game changers. great artists sure, great mcs sure, i mean i love both of them. but if it wasn't for all the beef i don't think either of them would be what they are today.

when it comes down to it i still hate what that generation brought to hip hop, the bling bling shiny suits commercial side of bad boy, the 'you're only real if you've shot someone/have been shot' of death row gangsta shit. you had two incredible mcs who for me despite the abundance of talent, helped to ruin hip hop.