To explain ,People who have obtained way more success/longevity than their apparent level of talent deserve.


To begin, Am I the only one who is kinda shocked how long Kid Rock has managed to remain a big act and the level to which he's managed to parlay it into other ventures ?

It wouldn't be fair to say he has no talent, because he has managed to make it as a Rap/Rock/Country artist. While he isn't particularly great at of any of these genres, he still seems to be embraced by members of each respective community (The artists at least).


At one point him and Fred Durst were in the same league as duking it out for title of Biggest Rock star in the country, with Fred being slightly ahead in the race.

And he fucked Pamela Anderson. And yes I realize it was after she fell the fuck off, but at least it was still Pam! It's people reading this now whose biggest score was fucking the high school prom queen after she fell off in life.

it's like the reason he's been around so long is because he sucks at everything, but not enuff for any of those three groups to turn on him completely because the other two don't know jack shit about the ins and outs of the one

I was a fan of his back in high school, thought he was cool but to see him STILL putting out albums that are getting a decent amount of attention is shocking.

I'm gonna catch TONSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS of hate for this, but bear with me.

He's mega talented. I love the guy. Should start with that.

But here he is, arguably (not even really arguably, tho) the biggest rap superstar in the history of the genre. And he is not the most talented MC ever.

Am I saying he doesn't deserve success? Hell no. He's a hell of a business man, and again, I can't stress enough that he's a talented mothafucker.

But if the question is "someone who achieved way more success than their talent would indicate", then Jay is up there.

I mean, he said it himself..."if skills sold, truth be told..."

rappers overachieved since most of them got over due to image and production more so than pure talent. It's HARD to channel skill and talent into great memorable Rap songs and albums, although it shouldn't be.

Even with Rakim...he might have been the most talented skillwise in the 80's, but he damn sure wasn't the most famous or best selling.

rap may be the biggest culprit of having mass appeal based on image rather than talent...but I think it can definitely be said for all genres.

Good point overall, though.

To go from a low level crack dealer/ sideman for a marginally successful rapper to being one of the biggest/most respected acts ever IS the come up of a lifetime.

Not only that, but it's not like he could have gone the LL (and to a lesser extent Nelly) route and started rapping for the girls to get big. He's a goofy looking, kinda awkward ass dude who still managed to become the biggest Rap star ever

Marrying Beyonce played a big part in all it.

for doing what he's done. I want to make that abundantly clear. I have high, high levels of respect for Jay regarding his overall career.

Because you're right, maybe he isn't the best pure rapper ever.

But he is the best pound for pound songwriter his genre has ever seen. Go peep his live show for proof. The dude garners reactions even from album cuts like PSA and U Dont Know

He's a fantastic songwriter/song creator whatever (one of you donks will nitpick-"but he doesn't write!")

Maybe around here people will disagree or at least not find it in themselves to admit it, but at the end of the day dozens of great songs trump just great verses

this again touches on the difference between talent and the ability to make a hit song.

To me, Jay hasn't written a whole shitload of compelling songs. The best songs he's ever written were on Blueprint or Black Album, IMO, as far as touching on different subjects (Song Cry being the most glaring example). The rest of his career was a bunch of crack talk and general braggadocious shit talk for the most part. So to me, saying he's the "best songwriter" is overexaggerating a bit, as I think he really hasn't reached too too far outside of his comfort zone.

However, what you're referring to (IMO, at least) is his HIT-making ability, a talent for which in hiphop, he is second to none, no question in my eyes. Someone on here once called him a "glorified party rapper" and while I think that's a harsh way to put it, it's really not that far off. He's made a ton of hits, and sure many of them are great songs, but I just don't think he was writing compelling shit or anything like that.

My basic point being that I think there's a difference between being a "all time great song writer" and an "all time great hit maker", and I think Jay is the latter.

that shit was omnipresent
when i was at Hampton.

i got back sophmore year,
and EVERYBODY had that album.

it's like they were giving out a
copy at the state line..."welcome to virginia,
here's your copy of the blueprint. lol"

that song got so much burn (from black folks, at least)
i figurued it was a single.

i don't think i bought the album until a few years ago,
and i knew all of the songs.

> The dude garners
>reactions even from album cuts like PSA and U Dont Know
>

for years he has adapted and still can rip when he wants too..

he is a top 10 mc

what makes Jay-Z special is his ability to dumb it down, market it, then basically open up the ether can when he feels like it on an album

he means if skills sold, he'd rap like talib kweli, but since skills alone don't sell, he raps like he does.

hes basically saying that he DOES dumb himself down
people just praise him for saying that cos hes aware of what he does
without actually critiquing what he does anyway

but im not sure why he thinks kweli has more 'skills' as a rapper
he just raps about different stuff

I've always found that line absolutely laughable. Trying to explain away why you dumb down your rhymes, when in reality you just don't know how to do anything different.

i do dodgy deals cos thats the way the system is set up and well i CAN and i make more money that way! and then lessonheads saying well wow, thats SO profound, its not his fault he does what he does, thats just the way the system is set up. since when did admitting to being a follower mean you shouldnt get dissed for being a follower? hip hop heads' critical faculties got seriously weak in the 00s.

the way its so praised and analyzed and held up as an example of jay's brilliance basically in a nutshell shows how status quo-line-towing the modern (popular) rapper/fan is

or at least how accepting we are now of the status quo rather than questioning, and how willing we are to embrace it even if we 'get lucky' rather than try and challenge it

his hustle and dedication to his craft basically got him to Reasonable Doubt, taking on the burden of filling the Biggie void took him to super stardom

I would have not expected that from "The Originators" at all

I mean.........motherfucker has NO talent. And here he is. Still here.

And his self marketing is second to none.

But if we're talking strictly music skills, than yes it is

He's merely passable as a rapper if he has the right ghostwriters.

Who has he put out besides Biggie?

Every act he gets has been dropped or left.

He just always seemed to get 1 hit out of everyone, which is ok but his turnover rate was ridiculous.

It's like he was running a Dunkin Donuts or some shit.

Just that Diddy himself has managed to become a huge icon.

Also Mase could have been another huge star if he hadn't quit rapping.

>Who has he put out besides Biggie?
>
on his label? Faith, Total, 112, Mase, and a bunch of folks who got at least ONE hit off puff that coulda parylayed into more if they played it right....

and let's NOT front like Mary J would be where she is without Puffy's initial touch...What's the 411 woulda been a really different album


>Every act he gets has been dropped or left.
>
>He just always seemed to get 1 hit out of everyone, which is
>ok but his turnover rate was ridiculous.
>
>It's like he was running a Dunkin Donuts or some shit.

i hear you, and i'm not sayin it was the right thing to do to ALL them folx....BUT IT WORKED....

I'm not hating but he went from Rhyme Syndicate to House of Pain to going double plat as Whitey Ford and winning a grammy.

-------------------------------------------------------
"everybody's afraid to say that it just sucks to watch talented motherfuckers pretending they sell drugs" El-P

At this point there isn't anything especially unique about him, he's never put out a masterpiece like most rap acts with his tenure do at least once, and while this is subjective he just isn't that great of a rapper when you cut through the silly accents and stuff

yet he could drop a big single tomorrow all while still doing dozens of guest spots and still does shows chock full of hits

...he reminds of Com in the way that he used to really dope, but now seems to be living off old ghosts...unlike Com tho, Luda has no classics...but the guy does NOT play on the guest appearance tip, and can spit when he wants to....

He's VERY talented. Gimmicks and shit aside, I see him like Busta in many ways...his animation and personality stick out the most, but they can both SPIIIIIIT and rip any got damn track, especially guest appearances.

And he doesn't really have many CLASSIC strong singles. Folks will always pay attention to him when he drops singles, but nobody's really on any of his album all that tough, and most of his singles had low replay value/longevity.

I think lyrically he had the talent to drop at least ONE great album, and he never did. He's best when he's in guest spots.

I mean he had all the hip hop critics criteria laid out: Primo, 9th Wonder, Nas, Jay-z, "officially" ending his beef with T.I., Sly & The Family Stone referenced cover. Not a bad album but definitely not a classic (Not even close enough to fake it into a classic like BP3 or Paper Trail)

http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/361313.jpg

!!!

Jay Z,Puffy, Jermaine dupri,chris brown, Bow Wow, Tom Petty same ole note playing turkey and same song, boring.

a whole lot of folks.

feels me on tom petty.

alicia keys, i dunno, mixed bag there. i don't think she has overachieved when you factor in her total package (appearance, stage presence, etc) but i can see what you're saying.

rappers i won't even think about, probably applies to most, it's a business built on branding, hustling and overachieving.

it is pretty amazing to me that cher is still around and so big. maybe i am missing the appeal because i have never had a penis in my mouth but i doubt it, i can appreciate a lot of other gay contributions to the art world. she kind of had a period in the 80s where i could see the appeal but before and since, jesus christ, just campy crap and really weird sounding pop epics.

Cher made it cool to sound like Mean Joe Greene is slow motion and Toni Braxtonn followed suit and it scurred me.

sounding like a wounded Smokey the Bear and grizzly.

see, I really do agree with mistermaxxx on a lot of things

It's quite an achievement for a rather unremarkable rapper to be currently among the top 5 highest-selling female hip hop acts ever.

too bad she couldn't keep it together

you can still shitty ass one hit wonder bands going back to the mid 90s if not earlier. fucking color me badd is probably playing a world tour right now, slaying leggy czech girls and smoking thai weed (and likely losing money for someone and themselves).

if you have done anything remotely successful, you can play your crap for an audience somewhere it seems like (thank you, indian casinos!).

any which way, i do understand the spirit of your question and would posit an artist that i like but, um, cmon. tom petty. he has a strange appeal to me, i find his music very pleasant but not in a totally bland way. i've even seen him perform a couple times. but let's face it, he basically has one song in his entire catalog and everything about his music is sort of simple and muted. maybe i am selling him short and maybe it's a less is more kind of deal but this guy has lasted forever, had a ton of hits, crossed over into other things and made A TON of money.

yeah, she had a great voice...
but the stuff w/ ike pretty much all sounded the same
and only a few of those songs were really great.

then she released a bunch of material in the late 60s.
and the entire decade of the 70s.

and most of it was pretty terrible.





she had a crossover comeback in 1984 with
the "private dancer" album,
anchored by one of the greatest songs pop songs
ever released..."what's love got to do with it."



and then,
and then...

nothing.

but she's still around.



well, the movie was made about her life did her good.
her value as an artist seems to hinge on her survial...

the soundtrack to the movie was pretty dope, i guess.
but explain to me how she is seen as a soul survior.



she's had more longevity than her talent would
seem to warrant.

...EVER....

Will always be ace in my book.

Versatile body of work and the chops to carry it. I absolutely understand the praise from a musical stand point.

>she had a crossover comeback in 1984 with
>the "private dancer" album,
>anchored by one of the greatest songs pop songs
>ever released..."what's love got to do with it."

Wasn't sure how people regarded it nowadays.

yes there are some gaps but she was a huge ass star in her day, retained a great stage presence WAY beyond what could have been expected, had some second moments in her career and has an intriguing story that limited her early and carried her at times later.

i'd say she outlasted her catalog, not her talent, and the reason is that she's bigger than just her catalog (which has some songs we'll hear until we die anyway).

this is like, "hey axe grinders, come here and grind your axe!"

we do not need several biographies about her, nor a 10th anniversary edition of her debut

He's like C list indie rapper at best.

Other than his work with MF Doom I can't really think of too much work of his that's lauded.

He must be REALLY terrible at rapping to be considered an overachiever

clever rapper.

but he wasn't blessed with a great voice, didn't have much flow beyond a conversational delivery, can't write hooks and only had a handful of legitimate hits while spending his entire career on major labels. yet he's been around 20 years, rung up millions in product endorsements, appeared in a number of movies (despite being a terrible actor) and is a big enough name that FOX news lost their minds when he VISITED THE FRIGGIN WHITE HOUSE.

N/M

and was able to brand them. You know his stuff when you hear it.

All of those things are accomplishments that come with significant amounts of accument.

Is it the most technical? No. But that's not the point. He found a sound that resonated with people.

If that was easy there would be no such thing as underground artists.

Brilliantly played the gangster/pimp/weed aficionado role early in his career. Once the gangster aesthetic began to lose its popularity, he brought the pimp role to the forefront, adding the Neptunes to his arsenal to become an athem maker. Escaped label switching purgatory by aligning himself with Master P/No Limit...

By the time I realized that he couldnt rap, he had already become a brand, selling everything from Pepsi to Girls Gone Wild:/



Yeah, yeah, I know, BUT I'M NICE, THOUGH!!! http://www.myspace.com/shazmusic

so nice, should read about it, EVERY-DAY!!!
http://shazmusic.blogspot.com/

DOn't act like he can't hold it down on the mic.

Plus, he has Charisma and likeability which are two skills that can't be taught

Snoops only talented lyrically whn he has DOC helping him. Snoop has a dope voice and flow. Plus he can come off the top with the best of them. But lyrics ain't his strong suit.

And by the way, he was also able to sell that Doggystyle porn DVD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_7Cx0dwmh4&list=FLsDtef1qi9iTZiNzLH2PM1A&index=3

that is pretty hilarious to me.

like "whoooaaaa buddddy! you're way too good!!! way too good!! give it a rest ok?!"

lol

not actual quality of music.

I got a few....


Rihanna (big time...great image and sex appeal...little else)

Nickleback (No words...)

Alicia Keys (Not saying she doesn't have talent, because she does...I just don't get her appeal...)

Rick Ross (This is dicey....Obviously, he started out a catch phrase blurting joke and then a) either got some decent ghostwriters or b) made an effort to become a better writer....The crazy thing is his career should have been done after his battle with 50 Cent...When 50 still had some semblance of juice he was making a mockery of the whole "officer Ricky" thing..Making videos with dudes ex girlfriend...Most careers would have been DONE after that...But Ross thrived and went on to become a, um, southern rap powerhouse who could get away with rhyming with everyone from Jay-Z to Wayne???? Insane...That dude sold his soul at the crossroads...)

Souljah Boy (History says he was supposed to be a one-hit wonder....Shit...What does history know?)

This post should have been subtitled "The Nickelback Post".

>This post should have been subtitled "The Nickelback Post".

There first song was good when I was 16 and it was 2001....

Since then they have just made a slitely worse version of that song every year until it gets crappier and crappier.

wow they suck.

People who overachieved: Hmmmmm


LMFAO - wow they are horrible and have minimal talent and are themselves, a gimick.

Rhianna anna anna anna anna anna a a a a a a anna anna anna a a a a a !


Pink - She isn't that talented, but she seems to give 120% all the time which is part of her appeal or something idunno. I don't like her music but I can't hate on her that bad.


50 cent - Has minimal mic talent. yet made multi-millions...


Seth Green - Went from random side character in B movies to making bank from the Austin powers franchise, being voice of Chris on Family guy, Creating Robot chicken on Cartoon Network.

^ Yes I just took this outside of music, and into Entertainment in general.

>Souljah Boy (History says he was supposed to be a one-hit
>wonder....Shit...What does history know?)

i can only name one other song and that's only because jeezy and wayne did freestyles on 'turn my swag on'

to find a way to score a hit single. He had...


Bird Walk
Kiss Me Thru The Phone
Pretty Boy Swag
Speakers Goin' Hammer

And Booty meat. And Booty got swag. Lil nigg got some stupid ass hits

For a guy who really couldn't rap for shit, he sure achieved a lot. A platinum album and several hits as a solo artist. A platinum and a gold album as a group member.

But yeah there are dudes who would trade their right arm to have achieved as much as him strictly records wise.

Of course he wouldn't have been put on in the first place if he wasn't the head of the label.

And that's saying something.

You can make the argument,as in the case of Waka Flocka, that a very good rapper isn't lyrical but that isn't even the case here. Birdman doesn't even rap well, IMO.

It's possible I'm missing something. I don't give him close listens.

I could be misrepresenting the facts here.

much he has going for him

nigga got four solid/good albums and 2 of 'em went gold. who would've thought he'd achieve that after his appearance on RD? not me that's for sure. with that said, i dig his catalog.

He's arguably the second most influental rapper to debut in the last decade. *checks facts* Yup....he is. The only other rapper I'd say had more influence upon their debut is Kanye.

Not even Drake had more influence than Soulja Boy. No hyperbole whatsoever.
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How long has that little shit been around ?

3 years ?

Shiiiiiiet, 3 years too fucking long.


What the blood claaat ???

and only two singles!!!

And the way he hasn't totally switched it up while going from rap to rock to country, he's managed to blend the genres along the way. I mean, he's got a song with Martina McBride and T.I. on his latest album, that's some crazy shit.

It baffles me that they still have a fan base, and that they can make 2 albums per year, and that they're still allowed in a recording studio

I haven't felt compelled to listen to them since 2002 but the albums of theirs I did hear had some pretty good production.

Plus they get a lot of mileage out of the stoner/Juggalo crowd

I never really liked their production and they pretty much say the same thing on every song. At least that's how I hear it.

Maybe its just because of where I'm from and the unwarranted popularity they have there.

I really can't stand their fans though. black dickies shorts, black tank top, high black skin brand socks wearing
skinheads shotgunning bud lights while driving lifted black trucks across glamis reminiscing about their last trip to glamis
trying to fuck the bitch with the biggest muffintop and 4th grade caliber drawn starred tattoos on their 2nd roll under their belly button ass bitches.



yep.

fuck em

Tell us how you REALLY feel about it why don't you