i mean when he talkin about lyric writers who are considered almost poets like dylan, waits, cohen, cave.

i aint talkin bout pop song writing. obv stevie marv an them got their weight up in that area.

but besides a cat like gil scott i cant really think of many soul artist with complex, dense lyrics. that shit just dont really translate to soul.

If so... then yeah, I agree.

>If so... then yeah, I agree.

name me a soul artist who could write a song like desolation row or ambulance blues.

who aint called gil scott heron.

And more importantly, why should THEY have to?

>And more importantly, why should THEY have to?

so u can't them. kool my dude. point proven.

What the blood claaat ???

poetic lyrics

gil-scott had more of a spoken-word, rap style so he could write stuff like "the bottle"

It goes both ways tho, we got b-list soul singers who could blow dylan, cohen, cave, or any of them cats off the stage vocally.

plus it's two different approaches, soul singers want to hit you on an emotional level, so they do that using their voices and tone and all that, while Dylan and those who followed his mold where influenced by Woody Guthrie, acts who wanted to highlight social struggles and class conciousness, instead of "takin em to church."

>poetic lyrics
>
>gil-scott had more of a spoken-word, rap style so he could
>write stuff like "the bottle"
>
>It goes both ways tho, we got b-list soul singers who could
>blow dylan, cohen, cave, or any of them cats off the stage
>vocally.
>
>plus it's two different approaches, soul singers want to hit
>you on an emotional level, so they do that using their voices
>and tone and all that, while Dylan and those who followed his
>mold where influenced by Woody Guthrie, acts who wanted to
>highlight social struggles and class conciousness, instead of
>"takin em to church."
>
>

good post.

but i disagree with the vocal thing. a cat who can really sing doesn't impress me that much. i mean obv cats like sam cooke an otis are on another level. but just cuz they more technically gifted singers than neil young or lou reed doesn't mean theyre vocals are more interesting.

neil young high on coke out of his mind voice cracking on mellow my mind is as emotional as any soul singers performance even if it aint gonna impress the judges on pop idol.

on some "they pop" shit

preemptive strike like a mutha


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>on some "they pop" shit
>
>preemptive strike like a mutha
>

stop being emotional hoe. i didn't mean that. i said in terms of SONG WRITERS marv an stevie are up there with ANYONE. in terms of composing melodies, writing hooks and structuring a song itself, they unfuckwitable.

but that ain't what i'm talkin'. i'm talkin lyrics themselves. dense, ambigious, poetic lyrics. shit that 40 years later cats still can't figure out what they sayin. soul dont have that. i aint sayin every artist needs to be on some abstract shit. but soul lacks them type of artists. which is weird cuz hip hop has plenty of that. so it aint a black thing.

A boy is born in hard time Mississippi
Surrounded by four walls that ain't so pretty
His parents give him love and affection
To keep him strong moving in the right direction
Living just enough, just enough for the city...ee ha!

His father works some days for fourteen hours
And you can bet he barely makes a dollar
His mother goes to scrub the floor for many
And you'd best believe she hardly gets a penny
Living just enough, just enough for the city...yeah

His sister's black but she is sho 'nuff pretty
Her skirt is short but Lord her legs are sturdy
To walk to school she's got to get up early
Her clothes are old but never are they dirty
Living just enough, just enough for the city...um hum

Her brother's smart he's got more sense than many
His patience's long but soon he won't have any
To find a job is like a haystack needle
Cause where he lives they don't use colored people
Living just enough, just enough for the city...
Living just enough...
For the city...ooh,ooh


His hair is long, his feet are hard and gritty
He spends his love walking the streets of New York City
He's almost dead from breathing on air pollution
He tried to vote but to him there's no solution
Living just enough, just enough for the city...yeah, yeah, yeah!

I hope you hear inside my voice of sorrow
And that it motivates you to make a better tomorrow
This place is cruel no where could be much colder
If we don't change the world will soon be over
Living just enough, just enough for the city

Being ambiguous don't make it deep or meaningful. The whole premise you set up to support your argument is some bullshit.


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c'mon.

its a classic. but c'mon. gimmie something more to work with than that son.

you're trying to get people to play a rigged game
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Latest episode- Silk's 80's Weekend

Stare and stare
I look across the aisle at the process he wears
While people sitting back diggIng my nappy hair.
A sister standing, and no one even cares
We're all just riding with our nose in the air.

Another stop on the bus.
Some people boarding... different color than us,
They hate to mingle,
But no one makes a fuss,
The thing about it... there's no one here we can trust.

Of all the Sunday times of preaching
Where all the folks that the scripts been reachin.
They're hard to find, like it's a crime
To do of good and brotherhood

Seems no one will and the only thrill
Is doing bad
And that's kind of sad.
So all I'm trying to say, is what a way,
What a way to waste the day.

The Black and the ofay...

Working the same jobs for the pay
But it seems here lately we have nothing to say....

Stare...

Stare...

Stare....


...Stare.

Grandma's hands
Clapped in church on Sunday morning
Grandma's hands
Played a tambourine so well
Grandma's hands
Used to issue out a warning
She'd say, "Billy don't you run so fast
Might fall on a piece of glass
Might be snakes there in that grass"
Grandma's hands

Grandma's hands
Soothed a local unwed mother
Grandma's hands
Used to ache sometimes and swell
Grandma's hands
Used to lift her face and tell her
She'd say, "Baby, Grandma understands
That you really love that man
Put yourself in Jesus hands"
Grandma's hands

Grandma's hands
Used to hand me piece of candy
Grandma's hands
Picked me up each time I fell
Grandma's hands
Boy, they really came in handy
She'd say, "Matty don' you whip that boy
What you want to spank him for?
He didn't drop no apple core"
But I don't have Grandma anymore
If I get to Heaven I'll look for
Grandma's hands

Will somebody wear me to the fair?
Will a lady pin me in her hair?
Will a child find me by a stream?
Kiss my petals and weave me through a dream

For all of these simple things and much more a flower was born
It blooms to spread love and joy faith and hope to people forlorn

Inside every man lives the seed of a flower
If he looks within he finds beauty and power

Ring all the bells sing and tell the people
everywhere that the flower has come
Light up the sky with your prayers of gladness
and rejoice for the darkness is gone
Throw off your fears let your heart beat freely
at the sign that a new time is born


(can't find the rest of the lyrics and I don't feel like transcribing them... but you get the idea)

Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh, hear my mother call
Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh, hear my mother call

I was one of five born to my mother
An older sister and three young brothers
We've seen it hard, we've seen it kind of rough
But always with a smile, she was sure to try to hide
The fact from us that life was really tough

I can hear my mother call
I can hear my mother call (Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)
Late at night I hear her call
Oh lord, lord I hear her call

She said, "Father, father it's for the kids (Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)
Any and every thing I did.
Please, please don't judge me too strong.
Lord knows I meant no wrong.
Lord knows I meant no wrong."

Then the devil sang
"Would you like to dance with me? (Ooh-ahh-ooh)
We're doin' the cosmic slop." (Ooh-ahh-ooh)
(x3)

She was well known through the ghetto
Tricks would come and then they'd go
The neighbors would talk and call her Jezebel
But always with a smile, she was sure to try to hide
The fact from us that she was catching hell, hey!

Hear my mother call
I can hear my mother call (Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)
Late at night I hear her call
Oh lord, lord I hear her call

She says, "Father, father it's for the kids (Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)
Any and every thing I did.
Please, please don't judge me too strong.
Lord knows I meant no wrong.
Lord knows I meant no wrong."

Lord!
(Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)
Hear my mother call
(Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)
Hear my mother call

She says, "Father, father it's for the kids (ooh-ah-ooh)
Any and every thing I did. (ooh-ah-ooh)
Please, please don't judge me too strong.
Hear my mother call (ooh-ah-ooh)
Hear my mother call (Ahhh, ahh-ah-ahhhhh)

I'll play the fool for you, oh girl
If that will get me over
And I'm gonna go to school again, boy, for you
Just to get my equivalency diploma

There's nothin' honey, that I won't do
When I meet a guy lovely as you
Ain't it funny what a little love can do
(Ain't it kinda funny)
Better than poison, so much stronger than glue

I'll be a joker for you, oh girl
Make you smile when you're feelin' blue
I'll grow a tail or two for you
Spend the rest of my days locked up in the zoo

'Cause there ain't nothin' doubtful daddy, that I won't do
When I meet a guy lovely as you
Ain't it
(Ain't it kinda funny)
So much better than poison, stronger than glue, hey

When your body's close to mine, my baby, ooh
I get a feelin' that's so divine, ooh
Say, blows my mind

Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
(Keep on dancin', the music blows your mind, yeah, yeah)
Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
(Keep on dancin', the music blows your mind, yeah, yeah)

Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
(Keep on dancin', the music blows your mind, yeah, yeah)
Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
(Keep on dancin', the music blows your mind, yeah, yeah)
Bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, bop, keep on dancin'
(Keep on dancin', the music blows your mind, yeah, yeah)

I'll play the fool for you, oh, girl
Buy you things that I cannot afford
Now that ya be a two for me, honey, honey, hey
Fix all the phones and lock all the doors

There ain't nothin' baby, that I won't ever do
When I meet a guy who is lovely as you
Ain't it funny, babe, what a little love can do
(Ain't it kinda funny)
It is better than that poison, it's so stronger, stronger than glue

My love, ain't it, ain't it, ain't it kinda, ain't it kinda funny?
When I need to talk with you
No baby, baby, can't ya see? I need you to love me
And always be by my side

(Ain't it kinda loving you)
Love me, baby
Oh baby, oh baby
(Ain't it kinda loving you)
Oh baby, my baby, yeah
(Ain't it kinda loving you)

As around the sun the earth knows she's revolving
And the rosebuds know to bloom in early May
Just as hate knows love's the cure
You can rest your mind assure
That I'll be loving you always
As now can't reveal the mystery of tomorrow
But in passing will grow older every day
Just as all is born is new
Do know what I say is true
That I'll be loving you always

Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky---ALWAYS
Until the ocean covers every mountain high---ALWAYS
Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea---ALWAYS
Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream

Did you know that true love asks for nothing
Her acceptance is the way we pay
Did you know that life has given love a guarantee
To last through forever and another day
Just as time knew to move on since the beginning
And the seasons know exactly when to change
Just as kindness knows no shame
Know through all your joy and pain
That I'll be loving you always
As today I know I'm living but tomorrow
Could make me the past but that I mustn't fear
For I'll know deep in my mind
The love of me I've left behind Cause I'll be loving you always

Until the day is night and night becomes the day---ALWAYS
Until the trees and seas just up and fly away---ALWAYS
Until the day that 8x8x8 is 4---ALWAYS
Until the day that is the day that are no more
Did you know that you're loved by somebody?
Until the day the earth starts turning right to left---ALWAYS
Until the earth just for the sun denies itself
I'll be loving you forever
Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through---ALWAYS
Until the day that you are me and I am you---AL~~~~~~WA~~
~~~~~AA~~~~~~~AA~~~~
Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky~~~~~AA~~~~
~~~~AA~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~YS~~ALWAYS

We all know sometimes lifes hates and troubles
Can make you wish you were born in another time and space
But you can bet you life times that and twice its double
That God knew exactly where he wanted you to be placed
so make sure when you say you're in it but not of it
You're not helping to make this earth a place sometimes called Hell
Change your words into truths and then change that truth into love
And maybe our children's grandchildren
And their great-great grandchildren will tell
I'll be loving you

Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky--Loving you
Until the ocean covers every mountain high--Loving you
Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea--Loving you
Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream--Be loving you
Until the day is night and night becomes the day--Loving you
Until the trees and seas up, up and fly away--Loving you
Until the day that 8x8x8x8 is 4--Loving you
Until the day that is the day that are no more--Loving you
Until the day the earth starts turning right to left--Be loving you
Until the earth just for the sun denies itself--Loving you
Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through--Loving you
Until the day that you are me and I am you--
Now ain't that loving you
Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky
Ain't that loving you
Until the ocean covers every mountain high
And I've got to say always
Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea~~AL~~~WA~~~AYS
Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream-Um AL~~WA~~AYS
Until the day is night and night becomes the day-AL~~~~WA~~AYS
Until the trees and seas just up and fly away-AL~~WA~~~AA~~~~~
Until the day that 8x8x8 is 4~~~~~AA~~~~~~~AA~~~~~~~AA
Until the day that is the day that are no more-AA~~~~AA~~AA~~~AYS
Until the day the earth starts turning right to left-AL~~~WA~~~A~~~AA
Until the earth just for the sun denies itself-~~AA~~~AA~~~AA~~~AYS
Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through-AL~~~WAYS
Until the day that you are me and I am you
Until the rainbow burns the stars out in the sky
Until the ocean covers every mountain high
Until the dolphin flies and parrots live at sea
Until we dream of life and life becomes a dream
Until the day is night and night becomes the day
Until the trees and seas just up and fly away
Until the day that 8x8x8 is 4
Until the day that is the day that are no more
Until the day the earth starts turning right to left
Until the earth just for the sun denies itself
Until dear Mother Nature says her work is through
Until the day that you are me and I am you

Curtis Mayfield smiles and politely waves at this topic, making it look even more foolish.

~Austin

>Curtis Mayfield smiles and politely waves at this topic,
>making it look even more foolish.
>
>~Austin


Yep..Curtis is laughing his ass off up above...lol

He's not waving. He's waving.

Soul music artists gotta big history of listening to rocknroll music and writing new kinds of lyrics to their music.

Whatever. I'll take rocknroll lyrics over soul lyrics. For whatever reason....I'll make that declaration. I'll speak recklessly and say that soul music, to me, replaced the 'Jesus' with 'my baby'. But the artistry of the genre we call 'soul' is not in the lyrics...it's in the performance of the players.

But hip hop lyrics are the BEST form of lyricism in American music imo.

~Austin

I have a problem with the people/critics who set the criteria for what is great song writing..

Black musicians living in desperate times are trying to reach people and speak to directly to their people.. And convey thier feelings to the world.

There ain't much call for ambiguity under these circumstances...

Black musicians often had a knack for speaking very directly but yet having the ability to offer you a new viewpoint/perspective. That's an art in itself..

Curtis Mayfield often spoke in simple language, but can't anybody on earth suggest to me that brother didn't have complexity or depth..

I'm a big fan of Dylan/Joni Mitchell etc but lets not assume because you can't understand what an artist is saying automatically makes it of a higher intellect..

Then u dont know SOUL music. These SOUL artist gave us music that made us sit back and think:
CHARLES WRIGHT
CURTIS MAYFIELD
TASHAN
REPERCUSSIONS
MAXWELL
RES
EARTH WIND AND FIRE
SLAVE
FISHBONE
DAVID RYAN HARRIS
JHELISSA
CARLEEN ANDERSON
THE ISLEY BROTHERS
GIL SCOTT HERRON/BRIAN JACKSON
THE FIFTH DIMENSION
DONNY HATHAWAY
ROBERTA FLACK
SEEK
CASSANDRA WILSON
JON LUCIEN
ETC...


Check out NEW Soul music at: www.myspace.com/starbeing

Bumpin in the STEREO:
Jennifer Hudson-I Remember Me
Keyshia Cole albums
George Benson-Give Me The Night
The Pointer Sisters-Special Things
Seek-Surrender
Repercussions-Earth And Heaven

paraphrasing Hemingway.

I dont even know if I wanna dignify this with examples

or OK Computer. AFKAP's examples drove that point home about as distinctly as those songs drive their points home. I can't think of a soul song off the top of my head that wasn't built on some sort of social or personal point needing to be made. There aren't those weird, post-punk/krautrock type songs where the lyrics are basically just there to fill in sound on the track. There's always been a desire to be direct and plainspoken in (most) R&B music that just isn't there in rock music.

I'd really be open to seeing examples, but I've listened to a lot of soul music, even psychedelic soul, and I can't think of any songs where it feels like words for the sake of words. The new Bon Iver album is another good example, everything about that album is so vague and impenetrable but it's a great record just based on the feel those words give to the songs even if the songs don't mean much. With soul music, the emphasis always seems to be on the message and the vocal, even if either of them aren't up to par with what's considered good soul.

You can project that I'm making value statements in this post, but I'm not. It's just an observation. I'm much more interested in sounds than lyrics, personally, and I don't know the words to most of my favorite albums unless I'm listening to them. But I remember the rhythm and melody of them. And in that regard, there's really no debating soul music has just as many classics as rock.

~~~~~~~~~
The Idiot.

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.potholesinmyblog.com

>There aren't those weird, post-punk/krautrock type songs where
>the lyrics are basically just there to fill in sound on the
>track.

if anything, this appears to be the opposite of complexity to me.

the purpose of its existence other than the basic fact that I enjoy it or don't. Social institutions, for example. DNA.

The songs you posted, I get exactly why they were written and really like/love them, but they aren't baffling to me. Nor are they intended to be, other than "can you believe I am talking about something that people accept?"

But it's always rooted in reality. To me, complexity is often somewhat absurd.


~~~~~~~~~
The Idiot.

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.potholesinmyblog.com

because I found Radiohead's "Ideoteque" to be a really well written song even though it's strips of lines. I always assumed that alot of 'dissociative' or stream of conciousness songs were complex like that song is, but then I got into the Brian ENo catelogue and realised it was just words that 'sounded' right.

Then I realised that is basically the first step of song writing (the paul mccartney 'scrambled eggs' stage), and that leaving the lyrics like that wasn't impressive.

I mean I think Brian ENo's "Julie With" is a wonderful song, I wouldn't call it complex, and I think most rock songwriters get over on the inscrutability of their lyrics.

That said, I believe the original poster is basically asking if Black music has ever been dissociative while still communicating meaning, y'know, if there's a black version of "the ghosts of electricity howl in the bones of her face", and is there even an incentive for that in black music.

in relative terms when it comes to poetic technique. With that said, nonsensical of course isn't the same as complex and none of this is a qualitative judgement as that's a matter of taste. If we're being asked to generalize (which is very problematic), then yes, we can probably follow this to some extent as a stylistic matter through both genres.

Also, I think rock is a more encompassing label, so just comparing the number of great lyricists may be unfair. Rock certainly has masses of simplistic lyricists.

what a wack thread? gotta be a recruit for some skin head group to even make such a blatant lousey thread?

ALL THE TIME.

you ain't from here and don't know, but i bet you got more Black artists in your stash and listen to the lyrics.

smh.

complex doesnt necessarily mean better
ambiguous DEFINITELY doesnt mean better

but rock prob does talk about a wider range of subject matter

which i think is what youre asking for

eg -

Ohh, my, my, my
I'm feelin' high


My money's gone
I'm all alone
To much to see, the world keeps turnin'
Oh what a day, what a day, what a day

Peace & blessins' manifest
With every lesson learned
If yo knowledge were yo wealth
Then it would be well earned
If we were made in His image
Then call us by our names
Most intellects do not Believe in God
But they fear us just the same

Oh On & On and On &On
My cipher keeps movin' like a rollin' stone
Woo On & On and On &On
Allnight till the break of dawn
I go On & On and On &On
My cipher keeps movin' like a rollin' stone
Ooohhh On & On and On &On
God damnit I'mma sing my song

I was born under water
With three dollars & six dimes
Yeah, you may laugh
'Cuz you did not do yo math
Like one, two, three
Damn, Ya'll feel that?
Like one, two, three
The world keeps turnin'
Oh what a day, what a day, what a day

The man that knows something
Knows that he knows nothing at all
Does it seem colder in yo summer time
And hotter in yo fall
If we were made in His image
Then call us by our names
Most intellects do not Believe in God
But they fear us just the same

Oh On & On & On & On
My cipher keeps movin' like a rollin' stone
On & On & On & On
Allnight 'till the vultures swarm
I go on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on
My cipher keeps movin like a rollin stone
Buu On & On & On & On
Mad props to the god Ja'Born

I'm feelin' kind of hungry
'Cuz my high is comin' down
Don't feed me yours
'Cuz your food does not endure
I think I need a cup of tea
The world keeps burnin'
Oh what a day, what a day, what a day

You rush into destruction
'Cuz you don't have nothing left
The mothership can't save you
So yo ass is gon' get left
If we were made in His image
Then call us by our names
Most intellects do not Believe in God
But they fear us just the same

Oh On & On & On & On
My cipher keeps movin' like a rollin' stone
Doh on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on-on
You can't fuck wit' me, so just leave it alone
Ooh way On & On & On & On
My cipher keeps movin' like a rollin' stone
Oh On & On & On & On On
And On & On

I'm an Orange Moon
I'm an Orange Moon
Reflecting the light of the sun

Many nights he was alone
Many, many, many nights
His light was so bright that they turned away
And he stood alone
Every night and every day
Then he turned to me
He saw his reflection in me
And he smiled at me when he turned to me
Then he said to me

How good it is, how good it is
How good it is, how good it is

I'm an Orange Moon
I'm brighter than before
Brighter than ever before
I'm an Orange Moon and I shine so bright
Cause I reflect the light of my sun
I praise the day, he turned my way
And smiled at me
He gets to smile and I get to be orange, that I love to be

How good it is, how good it is
How good it is, how good it is
How good it is, how good it is
How good it is, how good it is

but eugene mcdaniels is a good one. shit like that jawn he did about the indians is what i'm talkin about. soul needs more weird shit. shit that leave u feeling uncomfortable.

>

she just a corny wanna be. music is just weak as fuck and derivitive of better artists. why wud i listen to badu when i could just listen to all the cats she sharkin

or early rotary connection

or yknow, you could just listen to some actual psych rock which will meet all your quotas for weirdness and abtract lyrics lol

I was sitting having breakfast in some out of the way diner type joint and they had country music playing. And without realizing it I ended up deeply engrossed in the narrative of the namesless, random songs that were playing.

That doesn't happen with contemporary "black" music for me.

I think thats why I was so impressed by Frank Oceans music, I find him lyrically brilliant. I mean "Swim Good" and "Songs For Women" are beautifully abstract, which I dig in music.

And abstract enough that you're often wondering whether what sounded like a sad love song was really a political protest song.

Meanwhile, R Kelly is simply talking about your booty. Or at best comparing it to a jeep. Literally.

So I'm not hearing alot of diversity in thinking in black music today. Come to think of it, even the 80's were littered with simple ass song-writing from black artists. It's like "soul" artists start with a sheet of paper that says "Love Song" and just build on from there.

The 80's are interesting because so much great pop music from white artists of the time was beautiful lyrically. (I'm only saying this now coz I've been on a Tears For Fears binge all day today :-D)

There are alot of counter-examples of course, but I think if it was possible to number them, they'd get dwarfed.

That said, there's alot more to music than lyrics.

************************

which is what i like about it

the lyrics tell a pretty clear story with a lot of clarity and detail, despite often being about feelings too, like soul (not surprising so many soul singers would have done country over the years if they were allowed to)

edit - i dont know about modern country though

>edit - i dont know about modern country though

though a lot of contemporary hit country is sounding more and more like contemporary R&B, you still have songs like this: http://youtu.be/ghZlwCFYpYc

im not sure about your idea that country has ambiguous lyrics to the point where love songs can seem political - that just sounds like something cool to say. but i used to have a few dobie gray albums that were pretty great cos of that combination of country being sung by soul singers. bobby womacks 'goes C&W' album is good too imo, though i know some soul purists hate it.

talked about Dobie Gray, BW Goes CW, Solomon Burke, Gerald Levert, Ray Charles and some others.

And another time I posted some selections from this compilation: http://www.amazon.com/Where-Stand-Black-Experience-Country/dp/B000002NBV

(which in retrospect was not a very strong collection, but hey...)

As should be expected, it's not really a topic that takes off here.

>im not sure about your idea that country has ambiguous lyrics
>to the point where love songs can seem political

But at least the music I was listening to put the kernel of the idea in my head, which I'm most definitley not going to get listening to some Trey Songz or Beyonce

with the lyrics reflecting the feelings of devotion and rapture that he has inspired in our 'yonce.

its like alicia meyers' i want to thank you for the 00s.

eg -

I look and stare so deep in your eyes
I touch on you more and more every time
When you leave I'm beggin you not to go
Call your name two, three times in a row
Such a funny thing for me to try to explain
How I'm feeling and my pride is the one to blame
Yeah, cause I know I don't understand
Just how your love can do what no on else can

When I talk to my friends so quietly
"Who he think he is?" Look at what you've done to me
Tennis shoes don't even need to buy a new dress
You ain't there, ain't nobody else to impress
It's the way that you know what I thought I knew
It's the beat that my heart skips when I'm with you
Yeah, but I still don't understand
Just how your love can do what no one else can

otherwise I really don't see the complexity...
if you mean simply using metaphors more often, then you may have a point but its not like they use metaphors well or any better, they are just afraid to really let us know what they are singing about so they disguise it as "poetic" when half the time the artist doesn't even know what that shit means...you ain't deep bitch.

>if you mean simply using metaphors more often, then you may
>have a point but its not like they use metaphors well or any
>better, they are just afraid to really let us know what they
>are singing about so they disguise it as "poetic" when half
>the time the artist doesn't even know what that shit
>means...you ain't deep bitch.

>i mean when he talkin about lyric writers who are considered
>almost poets like dylan, waits, cohen, cave.
>
>i aint talkin bout pop song writing. obv stevie marv an them
>got their weight up in that area.


on some "black people are great athletes but they not that smart" type shit...

and when was vague ambiguous lyrics equivalent to complex and poetic?

and then you have the audacity to shit on marvin and stevie

...which is what it all is at the end of the day.

Racism.

suck my dick

bro, you sound as racist as shit...folx is callin you out on it and now you wanna act tough, calm that shit down...maybe rethink your points as oppossed to sounding like a dickwad....OR *shocking* explain your points when people find fault with them

kuz every point you uttered in the original post sounds like some mothafuckin kkk black music aint as smart as white people music...

~Austin

he brings out examples of white rock artists who are more complex in their writing, then says a couple of goat soul black artists cant write as complex as dylan and whoever

he didnt jus state objectively that such and such is more complex and such and such is more emotional, in later posts he puts extreme value on this so called "complex" writing (whatever that means)...his language suggests that complex writing is superior to other forms of writing and not only that but per his examples white rock artist are superior to those of soul artists in this regard (regardless if he likes soul music or not)...its not overtly racially charged and yea i can play the subtle game back with him but shit is shit

this is aint nuthin new the idea that white music is more valuable than black music has been around for ages...this post just reinforces that ideal

i repeat...that shit is racist as fuck

of al genres of music.

than rock or "better" than rock, then i will stand corrected...complex writing with hiphop is different kuz its "rapping", complex writing with a singer with melodies and hooks is significantly different..him appreciating hiphop's complex writing is not the same kuz we're talking about singing here, shit aint the same

not only that when someone agreed with him then brought soul singers being able to outsing or have emotion he disregarded that with "that doesn't interest me", he has a bias here...rockist yes clearly but there's a strong racial component with what hes saying imo

I see this all the time. El P, Atmosphere..those type of artists are somehow more complex and deeper than say Scarface or Saigon who use a more direct approach. Never understood why people see writing songs that are only understood by a few people (if at all) makes someone complex or smart. The most complex thing any lyricist can do IMO is write songs that everyone can relate to on some level without a damn thesaurus and a psych 101 class.

I mean, they like good artists, some of them are even black. but it's always Rhymesayers/Def Jux artists that are "any good". I play some Freddie Gibbs or Big K.R.I.T. and they start asking if I have any Cage.

the worst part is, play some old school Dre and you're fine, but ask them to sit through more than half of Aquemini and you'll start getting weird looks.


~~~~~~~~~
The Idiot.

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.potholesinmyblog.com

>I see this all the time. El P, Atmosphere..those type of
>artists are somehow more complex and deeper than say Scarface
>or Saigon who use a more direct approach. Never understood why
>people see writing songs that are only understood by a few
>people (if at all) makes someone complex or smart. The most
>complex thing any lyricist can do IMO is write songs that
>everyone can relate to on some level without a damn thesaurus
>and a psych 101 class.




no you fuckin bitch i'm talkin bout nas, andre 3000, rakim, ghost & rae, gza, lupe, redman, jigga all them cats. hip hop my #1 genre. thats what i came up in. but my point still resides that rock a much more interesting genre of music than soul. still no one can post a song by a soul artist that is as dense and layered as the best work of dylan, cohen, young etc. so stop being an emotional little bitch with this "uh oh he dont think marvin gaye is a complex lyricist.........duke must be racist!"

man up son. this aint some aesop rock nerd shit i'm talkin bout. where the soul poets at?

Great...enjoy..and congrats on graduating from the 8th grade.

He asked if there were any Soul artists who were complex or abstract and then when someone mentions Badu he doesn't discuss her lyrics but instead he dismisses her music and says that she's derivative of other artists but he wants more soul artists to write like Dylan or Tom Waits? Why the fuck do they need to write like Dylan to be complex? I'm not going to make a post asking why isn't Dylan more funky like James Brown or Sly.

>He asked if there were any Soul artists who were complex or
>abstract and then when someone mentions Badu he doesn't
>discuss her lyrics but instead he dismisses her music and says
>that she's derivative of other artists but he wants more soul
>artists to write like Dylan or Tom Waits? Why the fuck do they
>need to write like Dylan to be complex? I'm not going to make
>a post asking why isn't Dylan more funky like James Brown or
>Sly.

cause badu is garbage karoake shit. u seriously comparing erykah badu yo fuckin robert zimmerman? i know this okayplayer and yall gotta duck sick every artist who came thru on a roots album but please son. badu's lyrics aint shit.

Travel like a king
Listen to the inner voice
A higher wisdom is at work for you
Conqering the stumbling blocks come easier
When the conqueror is in tune with the infinite
Every ending is a new beginning
Life is an endless unfoldment
Change your mind, and you change your relation to time

You can find the answer
The solution lies within the problem
The answer is in every question
Dig it?
An attitude is all you need to rise and walk away
Inspire yourself
Your life is yours
It fits you like your skin

The oak sleeps in the acorn
The giant sequoia tree sleeps in its tiny seed
The bird waits in the egg
God waits for his unfoldment in man
Fly on, children
Play on

You gravitate to that which you secretly love most
You meet in life the exact reproduction of your own thoughts
There is no chance, coincidence or accident
In a world ruled by law and divine order
You rise as high as your dominant aspiration
You descend to the level of your lowest concept of your self
Free your mind and your ass will follow

The infinite intelligence within you knows the answers
Its nature is to respond to your thoughts
Be careful of the thought-seeds you plant in the garden of your mind
For seeds grow after their kind

Play on, children

Every thought felt as true
Or allowed to be accepted as true by your conscious mind
Take roots in your subconscious
Blossoms sooner or later into an act
And bears its own fruit
Good thoughts bring forth good fruit
Bullshit thoughts rot your meat
Think right, and you can fly
The kingdom of heaven is within
Free your mind, and your ass will follow

Play on, children
Sing on, lady

Yeah


thread over, nigga. grab your ball and go home.

>Travel like a king
>Listen to the inner voice
>A higher wisdom is at work for you
>Conqering the stumbling blocks come easier
>When the conqueror is in tune with the infinite
>Every ending is a new beginning
>Life is an endless unfoldment
>Change your mind, and you change your relation to time
>
>You can find the answer
>The solution lies within the problem
>The answer is in every question
>Dig it?
>An attitude is all you need to rise and walk away
>Inspire yourself
>Your life is yours
>It fits you like your skin
>
>The oak sleeps in the acorn
>The giant sequoia tree sleeps in its tiny seed
>The bird waits in the egg
>God waits for his unfoldment in man
>Fly on, children
>Play on
>
>You gravitate to that which you secretly love most
>You meet in life the exact reproduction of your own thoughts
>There is no chance, coincidence or accident
>In a world ruled by law and divine order
>You rise as high as your dominant aspiration
>You descend to the level of your lowest concept of your self
>Free your mind and your ass will follow
>
>The infinite intelligence within you knows the answers
>Its nature is to respond to your thoughts
>Be careful of the thought-seeds you plant in the garden of
>your mind
>For seeds grow after their kind
>
>Play on, children
>
>Every thought felt as true
>Or allowed to be accepted as true by your conscious mind
>Take roots in your subconscious
>Blossoms sooner or later into an act
>And bears its own fruit
>Good thoughts bring forth good fruit
>Bullshit thoughts rot your meat
>Think right, and you can fly
>The kingdom of heaven is within
>Free your mind, and your ass will follow
>
>Play on, children
>Sing on, lady
>
>Yeah
>
>
>thread over, nigga. grab your ball and go home.

i actually love that song but it just a bunch of dudes out they mind on acid rambling

i mean could u compare it to something like this:

It's true that all the men you knew were dealers
who said they were through with dealing
Every time you gave them shelter
I know that kind of man
It's hard to hold the hand of anyone
who is reaching for the sky just to surrender
who is reaching for the sky just to surrender.

And then sweeping up the jokers that he left behind
you find he did not leave you very much not even laughter
Like any dealer he was watching for the card
that is so high and wild
he'll never need to deal another
He was just some Joseph looking for a manger
He was just some Joseph looking for a manger.

And then leaning on your window sill
he'll say one day you caused his will
to weaken with your love and warmth and shelter
And then taking from his wallet
an old schedule of trains, he'll say
I told you when I came I was a stranger
I told you when I came I was a stranger.

But now another stranger seems
to want you to ignore his dreams
as though they were the burden of some other
O you've seen that man before
his golden arm dispatching cards
but now it's rusted from the elbows to the finger
And he wants to trade the game he plays for shelter
Yes he wants to trade the game he knows for shelter.

Ah you hate to watch another tired man
lay down his hand
like he was giving up the holy game of poker
And while he talks his dreams to sleep
you notice there's a highway
that is curling up like smoke above his shoulder
and suddenly you feel a littlt older

You tell him to come in sit down
but something makes you turn around
The door is open you can't close your shelter
You try the handle of the road
It opens do not be afraid
It's you my love, you who are the stranger
It's you my love, you who are the stranger.

Well, I've been waiting, I was sure
we'd meet between the trains we're waiting for
I think it's time to board another
Please understand, I never had a secret chart
to get me to the heart of this
or any other matter
When he talks like this
you don't know what he's after
When he speaks like this,
you don't know what he's after.

Let's meet tomorrow if you choose
upon the shore, beneath the bridge
that they are building on some endless river
Then he leaves the platform
for the sleeping car that's warm
You realize, he's only advertising one more shelter
And it comes to you, he never was a stranger
And you say ok the bridge or someplace later.


And leaning on your window sill ...

I told you when I came I was a stranger.

so using acid as an excuse for funkadelic's non-complexity is unfair
~~~~~~~~~
The Idiot.

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee

http://www.potholesinmyblog.com

the other day

fucking great soundtrack

...seems a lot less pretentious than the other.

techniques of song writing in rock vs. soul music. I believe kap, old pro and others gave perfect examples of abstract songwriting in soul.

I'm guessing that's really what the original poster wanted to say. 'Cos complex =/= abstract. Just 'cos you don't understand it doesn't mean its complex...most of these guys that have written abstract type songs don't even know what the heck they're writing about to which I *get* the beauty of that style of writing but it doesn't make it any better or intellectually higher than a direct style either. It's more of what you prefer.

The post would have went much differently had the original poster put it the way that you did. Maybe his posting style was just to Abstract for the rest of us to comprehend.

I'm surprised he didn't attack this thread full force. This would seem like the right kind of thread too, b/c OP has got that Mr. Internet Tough Guy thing about 'em.