It ain't that I don't feel that studying hip-hop is important. I definitely do. But fuck all them motherfuckers. Straight up. And you know why? Because them motherfuckers NEVER talk about the music. NEVER. It's always the social context of this. And the political context of that. Fuck all of that shit. I always have but now I'm really starting to question if these motherfuckers actually like hip-hop. I suspect a lot of them don't. It's like anthropologists and some indigenous culutre. You don't give a fuck about them people and what they do. You just want to disect them down to your bullshit academic terms to validate yourself. And in the process end up exposing them to all these ideas that they never needed in the first place.

I'm so sick and tired of this shit. Talk about the music directly or shut the fuck up. Seriously, I don't think any genre of music has been discussed in academic books without talking about the actual music.... like ever. It's disgusting.
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you HAVE to admit, Hip-Hop is the LEAST *musical* of all genres of Music.


There's NO technical aspect to it. You don't use notes, phrasing, scales, or any of the other elements of "traditional" music. Hip-Hop is almost Anti-music. In that you don't HAVE to be musical to be good at Hip-Hop. When was the last time you heard a Hip-Hop artist, producer or fan talk about the G Minor Scale, or Note Selection. Shit, there aren't even ( scratch ) solos in Hip Hop anymore. So any semblance to most other genres is pretty much gone. You can construct a good Hip-Hop song without ANY notes at all. ( See also, most of Run DMC's catalog pre 1990. I'm speaking of that 'All Drum Beats, no samples' kinda stuff ).

So from a scholar's point of view, there's nothing to it BUT the cultural relevance.

I think you're taking it so personal because you're a Fan of the music. As a Dance music fan, it gets my goat that people think it's all that silly Fist Pumpin' shit. But it goes with the territory. And to be TOTALLY honest, I've always had a problem with "scholars" trying to dissect subcultures ANYWAY.

>There's NO technical aspect to it. You don't use notes,
>phrasing, scales, or any of the other elements of
>"traditional" music. Hip-Hop is almost Anti-music. In that you
>don't HAVE to be musical to be good at Hip-Hop.


you're ignoring a HUGE facet of music which is rhythm, cadence, and syncopation - all fundamental aspects of hiphop music. rappers who can actually RAP tend to be extremely rhythmically skilled, probably more-so than artists in any other genre IMO.

There's SO much that can be written about flow, multi-syllable rhymes, the different rhythmic aspects of various rhyming schools etc.

In ter4ms of the production, there4's a shitload that can be said as well regarding what was sampled during various eras, *how* it was sampled, chopping, sampled breakbeats vs. drummachines, filtered basslines etc.

I don't see any diffe4rence from any other type of music really, it's just that the vocabulary is missing amongst the scholars-I suspect like imcvspl that the musical aspect of Hip-Hop never really attracted those people.


EDIT:BTW, writings on metal is somewhat similar, especially the more extreme forms. It's always "Why are teenagers attracted to this dark and evil music and why do they want to mosh and hurt eachother" and yada-yada. Ever since I was a kid, I wanted to do an indepth book about the evolution of riffs from old blues and swingjazz to the most extreme de4ath metal. Maybe I'll write it when I'm retired...

>There's SO much that can be written about flow,
>multi-syllable rhymes, the different rhythmic aspects of
>various rhyming schools etc.


I can write out a Billie Holiday phrase or ad lib on sheet music. Can you write out a Hip-Hop rappers phrasing? There's no NOTES there. That's what I'm saying.



>
>In ter4ms of the production, there4's a shitload that can be
>said as well regarding what was sampled during various eras,
>*how* it was sampled, chopping, sampled breakbeats vs.
>drummachines, filtered basslines etc.
>


Ah...but when I'M doing it, I'm just "manipulating data"? That's what the consensus was in my "computer music" post a while back. People swore up and down that using software to create music wasn't "music", but when it comes to Hip-Hop, it is?

*red card*




>I don't see any diffe4rence from any other type of music
>really, it's just that the vocabulary is missing amongst the
>scholars-I suspect like imcvspl that the musical aspect of
>Hip-Hop never really attracted those people.

could be.


>
>
>EDIT:BTW, writings on metal is somewhat similar, especially
>the more extreme forms. It's always "Why are teenagers
>attracted to this dark and evil music and why do they want to
>mosh and hurt eachother" and yada-yada. Ever since I was a
>kid, I wanted to do an indepth book about the evolution of
>riffs from old blues and swingjazz to the most extreme de4ath
>metal. Maybe I'll write it when I'm retired...

But at the end of it all, Metal Musicians are playing NOTES on INSTRUMENTS. It can be notated, written out and given to other musicians to be played. THAT'S my point.

doesnt mean its not music

theres lots of music thats hard to notate exactly

if we only made music that could be written down a lot of the best music of the last 50 or so years wouldnt have been made (or if it was, it would have sounded a lot different)

its amazing how the western european perspective dismisses all that doesn't fit its parameters.

its not that they're methods of notation are deficient, its that hip hop isn't music.

>its not that they're methods of notation are deficient, its
>that hip hop isn't music.

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but i'm sick of people crying about how Hip-Hop doesn't get the respect that other ( decades and in some cases centuries old ) genres of music gets.

It's too young. AND it has no real rules, as relates to "teachable" forms of music.


Isn't THAT a "Hip-Hop" argument? "It's whatever you want it to be" or "You can't teach Hip-Hop...this shit is just IN you".


You can't have it both ways.

Just fyi, this really is less about the study of hip-hop as music and more about how TIRED I am of reading about hip-hop as culture from people that can only look at the music through sociological microscopes. I'm not really prepared to go into hip-hop as valid musically, and while I understand why you raised it, it's taking things further off course. Nevertheless....

>It's too young. AND it has no real rules, as relates to
>"teachable" forms of music.

You're putting me in a catch 22 cause in this post I'm really like fuck it all. But only because they don't give a fuck about music. I don't care about teaching or any of that. My point is you motherfuckers shut the fuck up unless you show you can talk about the music, not just posit about a culture that doesn't really exist.

>Isn't THAT a "Hip-Hop" argument? "It's whatever you want it to
>be" or "You can't teach Hip-Hop...this shit is just IN you".

Except it's inverting the statement. Like yeah you're right. Can't teach it. Therefore its not music. Thanks hip-hop.

>You can't have it both ways.

Fucked if you do fucked if you don't.

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>You're putting me in a catch 22 cause in this post I'm really
>like fuck it all. But only because they don't give a fuck
>about music.

Well then it should end right there. If they don't care about music, YOU shouldn't care about their speeches and writings.

I don't care about teaching or any of that. My
>point is you motherfuckers shut the fuck up unless you show
>you can talk about the music, not just posit about a culture
>that doesn't really exist.

But like I said, if they don't know about the music enough to respect it how ( and more important) WHY should they be expected to defend it. That could do more harm than good...


>>You can't have it both ways.
>
>Fucked if you do fucked if you don't.


indeed.

Hip-hop music for a respected higher education music program. I've met his students who've gone from his class into the business producing and making records. So let's just dead this whole notion that it can't be taught. It is being taught and being taught well. Problem is things like it are not being recognized in *scholarship* the way the sociology departments around the globe have latched on to having their hip-hop experts who can spew rhetoric about the 'culture' but can't speak a dime toward the actual music. Let someone criticize hip-hop and they come out of the woodwork to stand on their pedestals and chime in with their expertise about how hip-hop responds to the issue. Give me a fucking break. Hip-hop's in the fucking lab making hot shit. Sit your ass down.
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I know that the damaja (where is he BTW) would disagree but the classical music theory that still informs how we think about music in theoretical terms was heavily biased towards the harmony/melody rather than the rhythm axis. Harmony and melody are pretty much two applications of the same things, meanwhile there are not two different terms for rhythm in the horisontal vs. vertical sense. Rhythmic theory is really poverty-stricken compared with the stuff that concerns melody and harmony; that doesn't mean that a lot of stuff can't be written about it...

And BTW, *I* would never say that shit about music made on computers...

>Can you write out a Hip-Hop rappers phrasing? There's
>no NOTES there. That's what I'm saying.

it'd be no different than writing sheet music for a drum kit, except there'd be words under the notes. You could even pick up Damaja's 'implied melody' argument using Wwesdtern notation.

Imho the real problem comes in using notation for scratching, sampling, etc. in such a way that someone could replicate a beat with teh same tols with which the beat was made by looking at the sheet music.

>Imho the real problem comes in using notation for scratching,
>sampling, etc. in such a way that someone could replicate a
>beat with teh same tols with which the beat was made by
>looking at the sheet music.


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the desire to earn respect from Academe (or in the cae of academics, the desire to show why it's deserving of study/respect/consideration) mean they wind up shortchanging hip hop's key musical elements and innovations in the attempt to shoehorn it into Academe's frame of respectability.

*shrug*

>Imho the real problem comes in using notation for scratching,
>sampling, etc. in such a way that someone could replicate a
>beat with teh same tols with which the beat was made by
>looking at the sheet music.


I'm not sure if he "invented" it, but he had a system of scratch notation.

DJ Radar did that, AND performed with an orchestra. I remember reading about it.


It's just not a widely recognized way of "reading" music. THAT'S my point.

Stress, assonance, consonance, long vowels, short vowels, etc.

Rappers have pitch and you can notate it. Most rappers have two different notes they use a semitone apart. Other rappers use more...especially older ones from the 80's.

Producers work with rapper's pitch all the time so their in tune with the song. Similar to tuning a drum set. Alot of rapper's just do it naturally.

You can notate all that stuff.

Edit....off the top of my head, check out 'Dopeman' by Ice cube. Lots of use of pitch there.

Obviously you got guys like Slick Rick who used pitch all the time. \

>>There's SO much that can be written about flow,
>>multi-syllable rhymes, the different rhythmic aspects of
>>various rhyming schools etc.
>
>
>I can write out a Billie Holiday phrase or ad lib on sheet
>music. Can you write out a Hip-Hop rappers phrasing? There's
>no NOTES there. That's what I'm saying.
>

you CAN write out a rappers flow and phrasing the same way you notate drums...
for example:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://drumtabprinter.fabali.net/wmaa.jpg&imgrefurl=http://drumtabprinter.fabali.net/&h=547&w=390&sz=42&tbnid=5xLcX_HiOVjy9M:&tbnh=266&tbnw=189&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddrum%2Bsheet%2Bmusic%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=drum+sheet+music&hl=en&usg=__gz-9B4w0Tl7MXFG-M1wcQsyzokM=&sa=X&ei=zFinTe-pJM2gtweuj7mFAQ&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQ9QEwAA

Notice the LACK of notation as to what key the song is in to the left of the staff. The notes represent different parts of the drum (kick, snare, toms, etc) you are supposed to hit. You can do that with rhymes as well. I have students who actually transcribe lyrics to notation for fun. The first time I realized that you could do that was when a friend of mine drummed Biggie's 1st verse of "Dead Wrong". So yes, you CAN notate the rhyme. You can also notate scratches too. My turntable technique students go through dj sight reading book exercises every semester.

As far as samplers as instruments go....they are. I teach a sample/synth ensemble where there is a drummer, a bassist, and 5 kats with laptops and midi controllers triggering samples and god knows what else their minds gravitate towards. And yes, we deal with key signatures, chords, harmonies, etc. Last night we flipped "I Shot the Sheriff" as a Marley/EPMD tribute...the bridge was an Aretha Franklin chop in a different key. So we spent some time discussing the arrangement and how to appropriately land on that section. We could have moved the Aretha sample to the same key as the Sheriff flip, but when we tried it...it sounded REAAAALLY distorted and wack. So yeah...sampling involves the same mentality that any other instrument has.

Ultimately, what is the bottom line with all of this though?? does a music have to be able to be notated to be considered legit?? or can it just be art and stand on the merits of whether or not it touches your soul?? Because that's all teaching music is about....how to effectively communicate emotions. The harmony classes, the ear training....they're all just techniques that help that, but I don't think the validity of what is and isn't music should be defined by that.


http://revivalist.okayplayer.com/
www.jdillafoundation.org

"Never go full Raytard."-Anfernee

>you're ignoring a HUGE facet of music which is rhythm,
>cadence, and syncopation - all fundamental aspects of hiphop
>music. rappers who can actually RAP tend to be extremely
>rhythmically skilled, probably more-so than artists in any
>other genre IMO.

you're talking about purely vocalization. I'm talking about the whole package. AND everything you're bringing up is just an extension of rhythm. Cadence ( where the words fall on the rhythm), Syncopation ( same thing more or less).

what I'M talking about is you don't write out a Hip-Hop song on sheet music.

>what I'M talking about is you don't write out a Hip-Hop song
>on sheet music.

(not necessarily that you DON'T, but rather that you CAN'T. It requires an entirely new notation to itself, one that still hasn't been completely successfully developed; that can't be said about most other musical systems which use different notations in their indigenous settings but can still be represented by/transliterated to Western notation if necessary.)

that hip hop did not represent a natural progression in musical evolution, but rather a break from musical continuity; ground zero of an entirely different evolutionary tree.

Which was mostly disagreed with.

>(not necessarily that you DON'T, but rather that you CAN'T. It
>requires an entirely new notation to itself, one that still
>hasn't been completely successfully developed; that can't be
>said about most other musical systems which use different
>notations in their indigenous settings but can still be
>represented by/transliterated to Western notation if
>necessary.)

right. that's ALLLLLLLL I'm trying to say.


>
>that hip hop did not represent a natural progression in
>musical evolution, but rather a break from musical continuity;
>ground zero of an entirely different evolutionary tree.
>
>Which was mostly disagreed with.

and rather than address it, they're just circling their wagons and flying the "Hip-Hop *IS* real music, you just have to know how to break it down" banners. Nobody is admitting that the shit CANNOT, in it's most elemental form, be written on sheet music as ONE ENTIRE COMPOSITION. All they keep talking about is polyrhythms, and cadences and wordplay and all that other shit.

The minute somebody shows me the Sheet Music for "Welcome To The Terrordome" I'll shut up.

>The minute somebody shows me the Sheet Music for "Welcome To
>The Terrordome" I'll shut up.


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all it is a bunch of loops sequenced on a computer with little progression or musical talent behind it.

;)

I know you're tongue in cheek, but I KNEW that would come up.


( and you're dead wrong about the no progressions thing, even if you're kidding,lol)

anyone can do it.

but if you're not, we can dig into it.


What's your angle?

i am just fucking with you

but i can imagine thats what a lot of people, in and out of academia, think about it, same as with hip hop

funnily enough, i found a paper today someone wrote for their degree on ghetto tech -
http://etd.ohiolink.edu/send-pdf.cgi/Mueller%20Gavin%20C.pdf?bgsu1182534766

now thats a course worth doing.

have you ever read the paper i wrote on "IDM"? i've linked it occasionally over the years. i wrote it in april 2003 for a 100 level music history class, and i would write it a lot differently now than i did then, but at the time i was satisfied with it and got a good grade. no "ghetto tech" discussed, however.

http://howisya.tripod.com/Travis_Christensen_-_IDM.html

it's throwin' in bleeps and swirls and strings over a four on the floor style beat
programmin' four bars
rinse repeat
throw in a change up
etc

you're right, you don't have to know how to play music to make hip hop
you have to know how to hear music
to know what sounds good to the masses
and will work
that's a skill that's overlooked and underrated
havin' that ear for samples and makin' it work
sure, you may not know what chord progression you just sampled
or even what note
but you might know instinctly that if you put say, impeach the president under blues and pants, that shit will rock
not many can do that

being able to sample well takes a LONG time

and put it together to make sense
when i say know, i mean know how to hear it
what works and don't works
it might just be innate
and non technical
and you may not technically know why or what
or how it works
but you just feel it
that's what music is
fuckin' feelin's
at least, the good music is

at it's BASEST level, sure. You have to know a beat, measure, up/down beats, and such.

But there's no need to know a Sharp from a Flat from a half-step.



And if we talk about just rhythmic terms, how many beatmakers know what a flam or a paraddidle is?

for what sounds good
that's all i'm sayin'
i don't know where you got all the
other stuff from
cuz i don't remember typin' out you needed
to know rhythm or anything to work an mpc
or a daw
hell, i ain't understand any of that
when i first got my mpc
i just knew what felt right and sounded
right and what worked and didn't work
to my ears when i started makin' beats
now, i took the time to study music
and learn notes and chords and etc
so that i can better understand how to produce
the ideas in my head without just relyin'
on samples, but it was a progression
for me
it's about feelin',
what feels good
that's what art is about
the technical helps you express what feels good
but like you said, it ain't necessary to operate
a mpc or a piano or guitar

>it's throwin' in bleeps and swirls and strings over a four on
>the floor style beat
>programmin' four bars
>rinse repeat
>throw in a change up
>etc


aka: "All Rap is just cursing and drug references" Said by someone who hears a really bad Gangsta Rap song on "Dateline" and bases it off that.

So yeah.


>
>you're right, you don't have to know how to play music to make
>hip hop
>you have to know how to hear music
>to know what sounds good to the masses
>and will work
>that's a skill that's overlooked and underrated
>havin' that ear for samples and makin' it work

so how is that any different from using synth patches?

( and AGAIN, not all Dance music is Loops and patches. MOST producers play out the parts on keys. Where are you guys getting this shit from?)


>sure, you may not know what chord progression you just
>sampled
>or even what note
>but you might know instinctly that if you put say, impeach the
>president under blues and pants, that shit will rock
>not many can do that

and what does that have to do with the actual 'scientific' parts of making music? Try telling that shit to a piano teacher when she wants you to play a chord.

and let's be real. This WHOLE conversation started with me talking about how you don't have to be a musician to make good Hip-Hop. you're actually proving my point. you don't have to have ANY trained musical talent and THAT'S why a lot of "trained" musicians don't respect Hip-Hop music.

>aka: "All Rap is just cursing and drug references" Said by
>someone who hears a really bad Gangsta Rap song on "Dateline"
>and bases it off that.
>
>So yeah.

most popular rap nowadays is like this though...but when you say this, it's easy to tell you don't listen to rap in depth enough to really formulate a respectable opinion on hip hop music

>so how is that any different from using synth patches?
>
>( and AGAIN, not all Dance music is Loops and patches. MOST
>producers play out the parts on keys. Where are you guys
>getting this shit from?)

i just told you, from what i hear, and you just tried to discount
what i hear so, i don't know how to appease you on this point

>
>>sure, you may not know what chord progression you just
>>sampled
>>or even what note
>>but you might know instinctly that if you put say, impeach
>the
>>president under blues and pants, that shit will rock
>>not many can do that
>
>and what does that have to do with the actual 'scientific'
>parts of making music? Try telling that shit to a piano
>teacher when she wants you to play a chord.
>
>and let's be real. This WHOLE conversation started with me
>talking about how you don't have to be a musician to make good
>Hip-Hop. you're actually proving my point. you don't have to
>have ANY trained musical talent and THAT'S why a lot of
>"trained" musicians don't respect Hip-Hop music.

to make hip hop, you have to have an ear for music
meanin' you have to know what works
or at least be able to feel what works
that's the most important part about makin' music
is goin' with what feels right
that's the problem...sure, their is a scientific aspect to music
or technical, but mufuckas ain't makin' music because the technical scientifical aspect appeals to them, they makin' music because it FEELS GOOD TO THEM!
so as long as you have an ear, and can hear, that's all you need cuz technology helps you put together your musical ideas, even if you technically don't know what it's doin' or called or how to play. anybody just can't make straight outta compton or a pe record or even some piddly soulja boy beat, especially if you don't know what sounds good or can't, at the least, feel what sounds good

you're a dj
how many times do you blend songs together that are in the same key or the same rhythm? i know you throw shit together at times cuz it FEELS GOOD!

you better recognize and stop tryin' to be the devil's advocate to prove some assinine point

the following are YOUR words...not mine:

>
>most popular rap nowadays is like this though...but when you
>say this, it's easy to tell you don't listen to rap in depth
>enough to really formulate a respectable opinion on hip hop
>music

okay. True. BUT I was using that sentance as an example of an what an UNENLIGHTNED person would say about Hip-Hop.


so THEN you wrote:


>
>i just told you, from what i hear, and you just tried to
>discount
>what i hear so, i don't know how to appease you on this point
>

Watch this:


most popular Dance Music is like that nowadays is like this though...but when you
say this, it's easy to tell you don't listen to House in depth
enough to really formulate a respectable opinion on Dance
music.


Boom. See what I did right there? You used the EXACT same views as you accused someone ELSE of. A person who by YOUR assessment doesn't have a respectable opinion. So yeah. If you don't listen to enough of it, then you won't know shit about it. Thus the whole "it all sounds like bleeps and blips to me" thing...




>
>to make hip hop, you have to have an ear for music
>meanin' you have to know what works
>or at least be able to feel what works
>that's the most important part about makin' music
>is goin' with what feels right
>that's the problem...sure, their is a scientific aspect to
>music
>or technical, but mufuckas ain't makin' music because the
>technical scientifical aspect appeals to them, they makin'
>music because it FEELS GOOD TO THEM!


Nobody here is arguing aagainst that. This WHOLE shitstorm started because you fucking crybabies wonder why Academia and Historians don't recognize Hip-Hop as 'real' music. And I'm telling you why, but rather than deal with THAT, you're going into some old sideways ass bullshit about how the shit *I* like ain't music either. When the REAL issue is WHY Hip-Hop producers and artists don't spend more time trying to get thier system of notation recognized. Or why they don't put together a program for Hip-Hop ( and not just "Rappin' 101" and "How Hip Hop came from the park") for youth to understand Hip-Hop Music theory within the confines of OTHER music programs.

But no. It's always some half-baked History class ( that one could put together with Wikipedia links), and NEVER any discussion about music theory and composition.


>so as long as you have an ear, and can hear, that's all you
>need cuz technology helps you put together your musical ideas,
>even if you technically don't know what it's doin' or called
>or how to play. anybody just can't make straight outta
>compton or a pe record or even some piddly soulja boy beat,
>especially if you don't know what sounds good or can't, at the
>least, feel what sounds good


and like I said. In an academic setting ( which is what this post was SUPPOSED to be about), this means next to nothing. You can NEVER explain anything to an egghead about "feel". You have to have a theorem and a proof. Again, Music and Mathematics go hand in hand. You HAVE to follow the rules, otherwise the shit will NOT be accepted amongst those from whom you seek approval.


>
>you're a dj
>how many times do you blend songs together that are in the
>same key or the same rhythm? i know you throw shit together at
>times cuz it FEELS GOOD!

True, but TOTALLY irrelevant to this discussion.


>
>you better recognize and stop tryin' to be the devil's
>advocate to prove some assinine point

So, because you refuse to acknowledge it, it's asinine? ( and I won't point out the irony of you spelling "Asinine" wrong.)

and once again. Your Words:

"i don't know how to appease you on this point"

again, you're accusing everybody else of the same shit you're doing.

i wouldn't care if nobody ever considered it real music
much less their complaints or arguments against hip hop musicians
based on their standards
fuck their standards!
i listen to deep disco house
that other shit don't move me
so it gets no play in my system
i listen to music for the feelin' of it
not the technical precision or notation of it

what the so called gatekeepers of what's musical
need to do and learn is that music is about feelin'
which i'm pointin' out for the 3rd or 4th time
since you can't seem to read and get the point
and want to split hairs and argue over irrelevant shit

that's what's important
the feeling of it
and until these musical notation nazi's realize
that about hip hop music, and music in general
they'll never understand hip hop and
how and why it's created
it's an outlet and expression
made through recycled material
note that, gatdamn

>you HAVE to admit, Hip-Hop is the LEAST *musical* of all
>genres of Music.

You'll note the * so bear with me first.

Gregorian Chant is monophonic, little rhythmic no harmonic declarations. Just one monophonic line. And yet it's the basis for the whole of western music theory. All the relationships that theorists talk about in traditional western music theory come out of those chants.

>There's NO technical aspect to it.

You know how off base this is. I'll take it as pure DAing.

>You don't use notes,
>phrasing, scales, or any of the other elements of
>"traditional" music.

Actually they all are used quite regularly throughout hip-hop, but no one knows how to talk about it, because the academics aren't writing about that and creating the language for discourse.

>Hip-Hop is almost Anti-music.

Drummers are almost anti-music.

>In that you
>don't HAVE to be musical to be good at Hip-Hop.

In that you don't have to be musical to be good at drumming.

Said under the assumption that you are ignoring rhythm as an aspect of 'musical' and denying the rhythmic requirements for being a good hip-hop artist.

When was the
>last time you heard a Hip-Hop artist, producer or fan talk
>about the G Minor Scale, or Note Selection.

Some of the greatest jazz musicians in the world couldn't name a c-major scale. Doesn't mean they weren't musical.

>Shit, there aren't
>even ( scratch ) solos in Hip Hop anymore. So any semblance to
>most other genres is pretty much gone.

Why must something comply with other formats to be considered in its own right?

> You can construct a
>good Hip-Hop song without ANY notes at all. ( See also, most
>of Run DMC's catalog pre 1990. I'm speaking of that 'All Drum
>Beats, no samples' kinda stuff ).

But you can't make a classic with just any sample or any drum break. The selection and use of selection is very technical.

>So from a scholar's point of view, there's nothing to it BUT
>the cultural relevance.

I think you just proved the opposite. The requirements though is approaching it from a musical perspective not a cultural one.

>I think you're taking it so personal because you're a Fan of
>the music. As a Dance music fan, it gets my goat that people
>think it's all that silly Fist Pumpin' shit. But it goes with
>the territory. And to be TOTALLY honest, I've always had a
>problem with "scholars" trying to dissect subcultures ANYWAY.

Actually I'm taking it personal because I'm just sick and tired of all 'serious' discussion about hip-hop revolving around whether its mysoginistic, or how much money they made in the 90's or the gang affiliations... blah blah blah. None of that shit is about the music. Matter of fact I'm going to go on record and say hip-hop is officially NOT a culture in my book. All these motherfuckers aren't talking about the culture of hip-hop, their talking about the affects of its various artistic movements upon AMERICAN culture. America is mysoginistic. Hip-hop reflects that. America is homophobic. HIp-hop reflects that. America has gangs. Hip-hop reflects that. But rather than address Americas issues, they push it off on hip-hop scapegoating it as a culture so that the broader dominant culture doesn't have to take responsibility. Meanwhile the most fascinating and impacting things that hip-hop has done muscially barely get footnotes.

FUCK THAT SHIT!!!



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>>you HAVE to admit, Hip-Hop is the LEAST *musical* of all
>>genres of Music.
>
>You'll note the * so bear with me first.
>
>Gregorian Chant is monophonic, little rhythmic no harmonic
>declarations. Just one monophonic line.

Gregorian chants are Harmonies. If not, there'd be ONE cat singing. Not five. just like Doo-Wop. A low cat, a middle cat and a high cat. You know DAMNED well Gregorian Chants have harmony.



>
>>You don't use notes,
>>phrasing, scales, or any of the other elements of
>>"traditional" music.
>
>Actually they all are used quite regularly throughout hip-hop,
>but no one knows how to talk about it, because the academics
>aren't writing about that and creating the language for
>discourse.
>

so you're blaming the lack of knowledge amongst Hip-Hop heads on the Academics? I thought Hip-Hop created it's OWN language. C'mon, man...



>
>Some of the greatest jazz musicians in the world couldn't name
>a c-major scale. Doesn't mean they weren't musical.

SOME. I see your point, but for the MOST part, Jazz musicians read music. If reading music wasn't such a big part of it, you wouldn't have used that as your argument.


>
>Why must something comply with other formats to be considered
>in its own right?
>

because as with ANY other system there's RULES. Why does 2+2=4? Because we use the Base 10 numeral system, and within the confines of that system, 2 + 2 must ALWAYS equal 4. Otherwise, the system falls apart.

So don't give me all that "Western blah blah blah" shit. Because prior to this discussion, music follows the laws of mathmatics, and if we use those rules, then we have to follow ALL of them.


>But you can't make a classic with just any sample or any drum
>break.

That's subjective. We both know it. We can;t even AGREE on the definition of Classic anymore.


( I'll address the last part later. I'm on the run and can't break it down right now. Good topic though)

>Gregorian chants are Harmonies. If not, there'd be ONE cat
>singing. Not five. just like Doo-Wop. A low cat, a middle cat
>and a high cat. You know DAMNED well Gregorian Chants have
>harmony.

That's false. Check it out for yourself. It evolved from this into polyphony with counterpoint. But Gregorian chants are monophonic, sometimes only using like three notes through the whole piece. No harmonies.

>so you're blaming the lack of knowledge amongst Hip-Hop heads
>on the Academics? I thought Hip-Hop created it's OWN language.
>C'mon, man...

No this whole post is just about the academics. Not the heads. The academics can only float their shit through sociology departments, and sound stupid when asked to actually defend the music. They'll defend mysogeny, homophobia, violence, etc. But defend the actual music. *silence*

>>Some of the greatest jazz musicians in the world couldn't
>name
>>a c-major scale. Doesn't mean they weren't musical.
>
>SOME. I see your point, but for the MOST part, Jazz musicians
>read music. If reading music wasn't such a big part of it, you
>wouldn't have used that as your argument.

Reading music is whatever. Not the basis for determining someones musical ability. That's my point.

>>Why must something comply with other formats to be
>considered
>>in its own right?
>>
>
>because as with ANY other system there's RULES. Why does
>2+2=4? Because we use the Base 10 numeral system, and within
>the confines of that system, 2 + 2 must ALWAYS equal 4.
>Otherwise, the system falls apart.

The system must fall apart but that's a wholy different post. Honestly I just don't understand defending notation as the basis for music, but it's beside my point now.

>So don't give me all that "Western blah blah blah" shit.
>Because prior to this discussion, music follows the laws of
>mathmatics, and if we use those rules, then we have to follow
>ALL of them.

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

Music doesn't follow any laws. Laws were created to help the uninitiated follow music.



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>Reading music is whatever. Not the basis for determining
>someones musical ability. That's my point.

it's a HUGE fucking part of it, though. Wouldn't you say? If you wrote a piece for an orchestra, wouldn't you expect them to be able to read the shit you wrote? The violin player might be badder than a motherfucker, but he's holding up the WHOLE show if he can't read the sheet music. You expect him to say "run through it a couple times and I'll play it." You'd think he was incompetent. and you can't even tell him "well just stick to the key of F. Because that STILL don't mean shit to him.

I'll give you a PERFECT example. Me and my boy were at Producer X's crib, and he was playing all these amazing joints that he'd made. My boy then played along, and pointed out a few things like: "oh, I see what you did...you went from F-sharp to a Minor, blah,blah,blah...well let's try that with an A Flat"

Producer X doesn't read music, BUT at the same time, you can't make suggestions to him if you're coming with a musical background. so YES it DOES make a difference in certain situations. you can't send that guy ( who is by ALL accounts and AMAZING musician) sheet music. It's useless. So yes. It CAN determine somebody's musical ability,or at the VERY least, their limitations.


>The system must fall apart but that's a wholy different post.
>Honestly I just don't understand defending notation as the
>basis for music, but it's beside my point now.

nope. You created this mess. Explain how that's beside the point...



>Music doesn't follow any laws. Laws were created to help the
>uninitiated follow music.
>

Okay, so then you're throwing out time Signatures and Beats, Bars, and Measures then, right? Why is there "Free Jazz"? because it doesn't follow the same RULES as Traditional Jazz. Most ( if not all ) forms of modern music follow the laws of Mathematics 8 beats to a Bar, etc...


and if music doesn't follow laws, then why are all defaults on ALL machines set to 4/4 time, Bars, and 8 beat loops? Why is the same scale on EVERY keyboard?

>>Reading music is whatever. Not the basis for determining
>>someones musical ability. That's my point.
>
>it's a HUGE fucking part of it, though.

No it's not. It's less than five hundred years old. For almost half of those years it was confined to a specific area of the planet, and only within the last century has it become globally dominant.

>Wouldn't you say? If
>you wrote a piece for an orchestra, wouldn't you expect them
>to be able to read the shit you wrote?

Yes because they would get orchestra players for whom reading would be a requirement. You wouldn't get a blues player for orchestral work. And if an orchestral composer wanted to write a piece that incorporated a blues element, they'd either have to accept the bluesmans interpretation of their part, or hire an orchestra musician who could play "the blues." but please don't let that composer start calling himself a blues writer.

>The violin player might
>be badder than a motherfucker, but he's holding up the WHOLE
>show if he can't read the sheet music.

Then he shouldn't play in an orchestra which requires such, and is why someone like him would have been screened out before they even made it to seeing the charts.

>You expect him to say
>"run through it a couple times and I'll play it."

And yet there are tons of performances that have been just that. Maybe not in the orchestra but who cares?

>You'd think
>he was incompetent. and you can't even tell him "well just
>stick to the key of F. Because that STILL don't mean shit to
>him.

Why not just play it through for him and see if he can find his place in it. Now if he can't find his place after a while, THEN you can call him incompetent. Before that though....

>I'll give you a PERFECT example. Me and my boy were at
>Producer X's crib, and he was playing all these amazing joints
>that he'd made. My boy then played along, and pointed out a
>few things like: "oh, I see what you did...you went from
>F-sharp to a Minor, blah,blah,blah...well let's try that with
>an A Flat"
>
>Producer X doesn't read music, BUT at the same time, you can't
>make suggestions to him if you're coming with a musical
>background. so YES it DOES make a difference in certain
>situations. you can't send that guy ( who is by ALL accounts
>and AMAZING musician) sheet music. It's useless. So yes. It
>CAN determine somebody's musical ability,or at the VERY least,
>their limitations.

But what if Producer X said, you know what would really work is if we modulated that synth line with an LFO on the four to give a nice build to the down beat. Is he not talking competently about his composition. And what if that modulation happened to be up to a minor, which in turn lead him to build a chord around it. But he doesn't know a minor from a flat tire. Is he not still composing music competently?

>
>>The system must fall apart but that's a wholy different post.
>
>>Honestly I just don't understand defending notation as the
>>basis for music, but it's beside my point now.
>
>nope. You created this mess. Explain how that's beside the
>point...

It's beside the point because I'm talking about the absence of musical knowledge in the scholarly realm not in the realm of Producer X's.

>>Music doesn't follow any laws. Laws were created to help
>the
>>uninitiated follow music.
>>
>
>Okay, so then you're throwing out time Signatures and Beats,
>Bars, and Measures then, right?

I'm not throwing out anything. It's all great theory. Some can use it in practice to make greatness. Some can completely ignore it in practice and make greatness.

>Why is there "Free Jazz"?
>because it doesn't follow the same RULES as Traditional Jazz.

Subject line.

Beyond that though, at this point you're running into the credibility question for the genre like you caught bblock with elsewhere. Free Jazz is not about just breaking the rules. The most amazing free jazz players have a better understanding of the theory than most traditional players. They understand the context. And understanding the context is the first point of free jazz. Free jazz isn't just play whatever you like. Anyone that thinks that hasn't really been exposed to the music and the musicians.

>Most ( if not all ) forms of modern music follow the laws of
>Mathematics 8 beats to a Bar, etc...
>
>and if music doesn't follow laws, then why are all defaults on
>ALL machines set to 4/4 time, Bars, and 8 beat loops? Why is
>the same scale on EVERY keyboard?

All of this is irrelevant to the point, but I'll just say microtonal is the future. LOL!!


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-------------------------
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Dre makes no apologies for his own eccentricities. “I was young, and searching, trying to find myself,” he says. “Never did.”-- Andre B

or modules in hip hop?

im sure its really fun and interesting, but what use is it when you graduate?

not like you need a degree to join the zulu nation. or to work at the source or xxl.

they pontiicate about how good things were, and how much better they would be if they had their way in 1000 word intervals.
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From a technical musical standpoint - yes..

From a sociology impact class - i'd say let me see the curriculum before i go fuckin it.

...and I'm not gonna get into the argument about whether it is "music" or not...

But I will point out that once we make music academic, innovation in that music dies...
...I knew a dude in college who "majored in hiphop" and I thought it was the gayest thing ever...its the first step to living in the past and the thing that always made hiphop great was the constant innovation and change that occurs...same thing happened with jazz...once "jazz studies" was accepted as a legitimate major we get more kenny g's and less coltranes...and those kenny g's probably had to transcribe or play a coltrane solo in college but that does not make them anything like coltrane...
I'm not necessarily AGAINST academics in music (I have a music degree) but I do think that we should acknowledge the fact that once we start breaking things down and studying their cultural impact AND technical aspects we are setting standards, therefore any innovation in the genre might have to create its own new genre because we now have standards to compare it to and a box it must now fit in...

ie once it gets studied it cannonizes and limits innovation

BUT

Without looking outside of itself for context I think similarly innovation can be stagnated. In pusic in particular the biggest innovations generally come from outside. And if you have a music which hasn't created a bridge between other musics, it has no appreciation of where it fits into it all and thus how it can be a guiding force for new innovation. Hip-hop has done a ot of incredible things for music as a whole, and yet it cannot even recognize its greatness nor utilize that to push itself forward. I dont' put all of the blame on this on academics, as the myopia is self inflicted as well, but I will cite this as a point which still remains to be addressed. If we know that MCing is the best display of microtonal vocal melodies, what we can learn about microntonalities could inform new styles of rhyme. Will it produce new classics? Who knows, but it could spur innovation which would otherwise go in explored.
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I believe when the people who ARE the creators of the art reflect and study, innovation WILL happen...but when people from outside the culture study the culture without immersion it becomes our favorite okp buzzword "revisionist history"...I already have seen it happen with the flood of hiphop docs that have been out in recent years (imo)...how you gonna tell me about the South Bronx from Princeton?
I feel what you're saying...I was actually an anthropology major before I decided to switch to music so we're eye to eye on most of this...

people simply don't respect as a music, and don't know how to talk about it as a music. The MUSICAL aspect of hiphop is underrated, partly because cats focus on the MCs, and not the producers. Sit down and talk music with Premier, or Organizied Noize, or DJ Toomp, or Kanye and see what you get...these cats aren't just fuckin around til something clicks. They actually KNOW WHAT THE FUCK THEY'RE DOING,lol.

What's crazy is, the last decade or so has seen a shit ton of change in the MUSIC of hip-hop, even if you solely focus on the flexibility that comes with using DAWs. I remember cats buying weird synth lps JUST to sample open moog notes and spread'em on a MP.

Now,I got like 4 different GREAT moog emulations on THIS laptop, along with every synth my 70's icons rocked.

That's made a HUGE difference on the music. MASSIVE. But, you have to know music, and stop pimpin hiphop to see that

http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=17&topic_id=61269&mesg_id=61269&listing_type=search

sound like you'd be quite fond of this set so your reaction is surprising.

Good point nonetheless. Hip-hop scholars aren't taken serious anywhere anyway. They're probably the lowest branch/least respected or important branch of African-American studies....if their even worthy of being considered such.

The weakest slave narrative, original African work of fiction, speech by any great black leader, is a million times more potent, intelligent and meaningful than any hip-hop song, ever.

music is just a microcosm. it happens to be the microcosm that i most associate myself with so i take it to heart. but man....
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Amir Sa'id - http://www.beattips.com/

Dude breaks it down and holds it down. If you're serious about it, you'll buy his book "The Beat Tip Manual" and literally just spend days on that site.

Wayne Marshal - http://wayneandwax.com/

You'll love his sense of humor and then just be amazed at how deep he can get down into it. I mean when he goes in on some shit, he goes all the way in.

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So I understand what you're saying.


It just hasn't happened the way it was supposed to.


By now, we were supposed to have legitimate departments
and shit around hip hop. There are lots of little symposia
and plenty of classes, but they all sound mad corny and
all the cross-examining of the lyrics comes across as
trite and silly.






----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

It has merits in both fields. I'm all up for academic studies of hip-hop albums and songs......as long as there isn't a great deal of reaching and mythologizing.

That being said, there's so much that could be said about the musical qualities and merits of hip-hop. I really wish more academic figures in music would tackle all of that. Think about it........hip-hop truly was/is a completely different approach to creating music and it should finally start getting the treatment that other, more established genres of popular music have received.



---------------------------------------


---------------------------------------

hip hop is ONLY studied in a contextual way. There is no analysis in the artistic or musical contributions of the genre.

I think the OP is hitting on something true here.

Hip hop should also be appreciated for it's contribution to how we 'define' music and how music is made. But all the intellectual analysis about hip hop focuses on a socio-economic perspective.....instead of talking about technique and brush strokes.

>hip hop is ONLY studied in a contextual way. There is no
>analysis in the artistic or musical contributions of the
>genre.
>
>I think the OP is hitting on something true here.
>
>Hip hop should also be appreciated for it's contribution to
>how we 'define' music and how music is made. But all the
>intellectual analysis about hip hop focuses on a
>socio-economic perspective.....instead of talking about
>technique and brush strokes.

Problem is, academics don't know shit about rap and
DJing. None have ever made a beat. Some rap, but most of
them are nerds and suck.

So they stay in their lane: comparing Nas to Foucalt and
other laughable dumb shit like that (fyi, that comparison
is as disrespectful to Nas as it is Foucalt)

The dopest shit about hip hop is in the technical details.
Rhyme schemes. Beat drops.

I think the main problem is that hip hop should be studied
by more musicologists than by historians and sociologists
and social commentarians.

The latter two have written an endless stream of boring books
and articles.

----------------------------

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

Same hip hop haters came out the woodworks, same college haters are present - nothing more needs to be said. And I can't add anything to this topic that I haven't been saying over the past 10 years.

*dusts off hands*
*walks off to hot air baloon*

one,
above_it_all

It's like anthropologists and
>some indigenous culutre. You don't give a fuck about them
>people and what they do. You just want to disect them down to
>your bullshit academic terms to validate yourself. And in the
>process end up exposing them to all these ideas that they
>never needed in the first place.
>


i'm beginning to see the root of Nopayne and yours' beef

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKkDoTtIvi4
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> It's like anthropologists and
>>some indigenous culutre. You don't give a fuck about them
>>people and what they do. You just want to disect them down
>to
>>your bullshit academic terms to validate yourself. And in
>the
>>process end up exposing them to all these ideas that they
>>never needed in the first place.
>>
>
>
>i'm beginning to see the root of Nopayne and yours' beef

Don't know anything about that, dont care

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O_E: "Acts like an asshole and posts with imperial disdain"




"I ORBITs the solar system, listenin..."

(C)Keith Murray, "

I know he said on Noisemakers that they study different styles of music and sampling

I think he's rolling with Mark Anthony Neal - prolly one of the top hip hop studies guy, but MAN is the perfect example of what imcvspl is talking about - emphasizing social/anthropological aspects of the culture...and often melding it with the black academic perspective - which almost always boho in flavor. (and unfortunately the other option is Clarence Thomas/Ward Connerly/Thomas Sowell).

A true study of hip hop would handle the lyrical aspect of course, but the musical aspect. And when the "western notation"/philosophy could not adequately describe what was happening - scholars would attempt to form a new way to describe hip hop and cast off models that don't work.

I don't really see that happening, and I don't think it can happen because the Academy has really captured the way people even approach hip hop. i.e, they can't think about it any other way, that's why the scholarship is so self serving.

one
k. orr

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"When the music stops he falls back into this abyss."

after class. we still chill outside of class and shoot the shit about the The Time and Houston rap and whatever.

the thing he always told me regarding the sociology part of his class is that, he feels like there's about 10% of people, even today who've grown up on hip-hop as the dominant mainstream music, who understand what it really means to the people who live in the areas where it's major.

like, I did a two hour presentation on 90s hip-hop and when I got to the Bone Thugs/Three 6 Mafia stuff, these black girls were all up in arms about their satanist imagery and misogynistic lyrics. I broke it down to 'em about how this was the height of slasher flicks and people who'd grown up on that, they were imitating the entertainment they enjoyed right down to the samples, it wasn't something you were ever supposed to believe in or model yourself after, etc. etc. And he hipped a lot of people to the deep introspection in a song like Snoop Dogg's "Murder Was tha Case" which most people in the class thought was just a dope beat + flow / terrible murder celebration.

I don't know, those were my favorite classes in school, and yea I said more than once out loud "we're not really talking about the music though" but I got to go off during that presentation. Otherwise, he said we have to have THESE conversations before people can talk about the MUSIC, because if people aren't appreciating hip-hop for what it means then it really doesn't matter if they appreciate how it's made.

~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." © Jay Bilas

http://www.last.fm/user/NodimaChee
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Nodima/run_that_shit__nodimas_hip_hop_handbook

Michael Eric Dyson has made a lot of great lectures on this subject and it is very interesting to look at the political and social aspects and impact of any music.

Sorry, I just can't ride for that dude AT ALL. I'll never forget reading his fucked-up excuse for a book on Marvin Gaye. I was taking a shit in my college apartment and I swear this dude made a Marvin/2pac comparison within the first ten pages. I wiped my ass with it and vowed to hate on Michael Eric Dyson for the rest of my life.

Man, fuck that guy.

He's made a name for himself by being slick with his bs.

One of them used to post here.

I still happen to think most academics are blowhards but I think I may have been harsh. I'm afraid of putting myself out there into that fold again, but I'm trying to find my voice again in what's become a crowded space.

I think academic discussion of music, especially Hip Hop, can be done but I do agree: it needs to focus on the machinations of the music and not the fluffy stuff talking heads love to focus on.

I'm currently doing a Masters in English Literature, and am going to be doing my dissertation on representations of death in (primarily 'underground'/'conscious' <-both contentious terms, I know)) Hip-Hop. Did my undergraduate dissertation on The Wire/Fate/Greek Tragedy, so continuing to avoid writing about books at any cost!

My idea isn't fully formed yet, but I'd like to analyse songs detailing various types of death (e.g. abortion, suicide, lost love, revenge fantasies, e.t.c). As it's in the school of English, it's going to be primarily a lyrical analysis... I'm particularly interested in storytelling tracks/usage of simile,metaphor,figurative language, etc. I've had one meeting with a tutor and they talked about the whole sociological proximity to death (high death rate in african american community etc) aspect, which I don't really want to go down (and think would be more relevant to something focusing on more traditional 'gangsta' hh). I think in the end I'd like to pose how death, or representations of it, can be ultimately positive in Hip-Hop, although I'm not quite sure how I'm gonna reach this point!

I've yet to properly dig into 'hip-hop academia' but haven't been too thrilled by what I have read... a lot of it that I have read seems like the author has half a clue about hip-hop, but their inclusion of certain songs and exclusion of others was pretty revealing to me.
I'd be really interested to answer any questions/take any feedback or criticism on the topic....

check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pl_8ZamA42c if you haven't

you know, organics?

my urban teacher ed program, there was 2 classes i took, "school and society" and "teaching in urban contexts" where we had academic readings on hip hop, and the OG post is basically exactly what was continually running through my head while it was going on.

Waste of money when I can give him my Source Collection and my ipod.

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the test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.

>Waste of money when I can give him my Source Collection and
>my ipod.

yessir!