I was curious to know to what degree this false dichotomy you guys are fixated on (i.e. that the ONLY possible outcomes here once police arrived to stop the fight were either Ma'Khia dying or Girl-In-Pink dying) would stand up against what the law seems to say. I honestly think you guys are painting things more black and white than anybody else.

Personally, I don't believe anybody would have died here had the policing been competent, and I don't believe anybody SHOULD have died here based on the non-lethal tactics police frequently use to subdue fights/violent actors in other settings and the fact that teachers/staff aren't killing kids in school settings to stop fights like this either. I'm not justifying Ma'Khia trying to kill anyone bc I believe that even if the officer had actually tried and failed to disarm Ma'Khia and her knife made contact with Girl-In-Pink, it's unlikely Girl-In-Pink would have died from her injury. We've argued already about the risk Ma'Khia posed to that girl; the majority of stab wounds are not lethal. For example, I found some studies since our back-and-forth where the mortality rates ranged from low single digits to 35% depending on the severity of the stab wound (and treatment, study objectives, etc):

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasurgery/fullarticle/2748060 (n=17,245 trauma Level I and II trauma patients)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2911111/ (retrospective study reviewing 750 stab wounds that happened to 270 prisoners)


But besides that, the lawyers I linked describe that:

"Under Ohio law, as it exists until April 4, 2021, people are justified in using deadly force in self-defense only under the following situations:

1)They were not at fault in creating the situation;
2)There was a threat of imminent or immediate death;
3)There was a not a reasonable means of retreat; and
4)The use of such force was reasonable."

and

"In Ohio, there is a legal presumption that a person acts in self-defense when he or she uses force against anyone who unlawfully enters their residence or their vehicle. The new law eliminates the “duty to retreat” as long as an individual is in a place where they lawfully have a right to be.

What Is Allowed—and What Is Not—Under New Stand Your Ground Law
Ohio’s stand your ground law takes effect on April 4, 2021. When it does, the use of deadly force in self-defense by Ohioans will be justified under the following circumstances:

*The person is not the aggressor
*The person believes they are in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm
*The person is in a place where they have a legal right to be (i.e., they are not trespassing)"

Given what we know about this fight, (I'll repost my summary from #187 but I'm sure you don't trust it so if you're actually interested in/have time to talk about this feel free to summarize yourself from the reporting that's been shared throughout the post so far):

"Ma'Khia was chilling in her home; these women who do not live there show up, loiter, and pick a fight with her (by girl in pink's own admission to the foster mom); Ma'Khia first calls a family member for help (her Grandma), the fighting worsens and Grandma later confirms these women were trying TO STAB both her and Ma'Khia; Ma'Khia now CALLS THE POLICE for help, also stating in the 911 call that those young women were attacking and trying to stab them, etc."

^How would Ma'Khia's actions *not* be considered self-defense under Ohio law?? I'm asking you as Buddy the lawyer not Buddy the okp btw (hoping there's a difference lol).