I finished Malcolm & Marie over the weekend and while I didn't plan to like it (I watched it just so I could properly diss it) I ended up being enthralled to the end because I wanted to figure out who was right and wrong in the relationship, whether they will stay together or had me wondering if they should break up.

I can see why a lot of people didn't like the movie, a one location, two actor movie isn't for everyone, and I think it could be triggering for people who have been in bad, toxic relationships. However, if you've been in such relationships you might recognize some of the behavior.

I kept watching thinking, thank god I am not in relationships like that anymore.

Anyway, I was wondering how other people saw the dynamics of the relationship and the easiest way to get to the bottom of it is in the AITA (Am I The Asshole) reddit format that I've become addicted to. For real, I can read these all day:

https://twitter.com/AITA_reddit?s=20
https://twitter.com/redditships?s=20

Anyway, who do you think was the A-hole in the relationship?

Poll question: Who is TA in Malcolm & Marie?

Poll result (12 votes) Malcolm (4 votes) Vote Marie (1 votes) Vote Both (6 votes) Vote Both but mostly Malcom (1 votes) Vote Neither (0 votes) Vote

I loved it! it’s a beautiful display of the dynamics in relationship.

that in this day and age

a white man whose dad is famous in hollywood can write and direct a movie al about his own arguments with critics who say his movies suck

groundbreaking

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

and that white man reimagined himself as a black guy so that he could go after the white women who said his last movie sucked.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

it’s like saying I shouldn’t shop at stores owned by white folks. lol

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

or shop at stores owned by white people

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

which has nothing to do with the conversation we’re having. so I liken your reply to saying because the writer is white we can’t enjoy the movie. correct me if I’m wrong...

it would've been cool had you just replied to the post and not directly to folks with such a bullsh*t theory...

you made that up because you can't read and you don't know what the word theory means.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

on a movie.

it's stupendous

it's amazing.

how does that get made in hollywood today?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

reply about the movie. who was the bigger asshole? and why. otherwise get off our backs lol

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

i'm definitely not up on Sam Levinson

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

with no action sequences, no shootouts, no over graphics.

Just acting and music.

No nudity, oversexualization, hypermasculinization, no inter-partner physical violence.

I appreciate that a movie like that with black leads can get greenlit, even if written by a white guy.

I am hoping if we ignore, we can avoid dude bamma'ing up the post. Otherwise this will be every other post sarcastic trolling like we are seeing already.

To your point, everything I have read has suggested that Zendaya and Denzel's son heavily shaped the language and the interactions of the characters and actively produced the movie. In fact, the film was Zendaya's idea (at least doing a COVID do-able film) and the film was bankrolled by the two actors and Kid Cudi from what I read.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

that the dialogue specifically references the writer's previous movie and specific criticism it received.

maybe that was also zendaya's idea.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I'm asking again.

You've made your point. The movie was written and directed by a white guy, and largely based on his experience.

There is no need to continuing harassing everyone when no one is no one is arguing otherwise.

he's replying with what he knows to be true

how is that hurting you? he isn't even attacking you LOL HE'S CRITICIZING THE MOVIE

if you're annoyed by it, just stop replying to him, sheesh


d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

I have asked this moderator to leave me alone time and time again after he has said he would but yet dude continues. If someone asked me to not interact with them and they are not baiting me or interacting with me, I would honor that.

Even in this post I tried ignoring him but dude comes in to say the same thing 6 times in the first 13 posts and seems intent on derailing the discussions so I asked politely again that he leave me alone and acknowledge that his point has been received.

I am here specifically because I am looking for different POVs so I want to hear it but who wants to deal with the snark, sarcastic unrelenting trolling? Aren't we all tired of going back and forth with each other like this for literal decades?


Which actually brings me back to the movie. I could care less about the critic bashing stuff but what it did have something interesting to say about is how normalized toxic relationships can be. I am super interest to see who thought the relationship was regular and who was appalled by how they talked to each other.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

While buddy's behavior is not only normalized and accepted, but defended by other trolls.

It's how people communicate when they have very literally nothing to say.

imagining bad things no one said about you is kind of a weirdo thing though, but white people do it a lot so I get why you'd be into that.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

if you're tired, that seems like a problem you can solve.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

just respond to the posts that are discussing what you want

we all free to repeat ourselves ad nauseum on here..again, its not hurting you at all. he doesn't have to talk the way you want him to.

we all been on here long enough to know who each other is.

is he doxxing you? inboxing you? stalking your social media accounts?

no?

then he's not harrassing you.

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

That one?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

imagine watching a movie written by this guy and thinking it means things have changed in hollywood, wow


https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0506094/mediaviewer/rm849039360/


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

regardless of the ying yang of the volatility within the relationship

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

i can’t assign it to neither...

she simply wanted to be acknowledged. like, how can you give a speech and forget to thank your lady?!

The reviews have been brutal for this film. Which is in a strong contrast to the reaction I have seen online to the film (at least folks I follow).

I was wondering if part of that negative reaction from critics, aside from the film savaging critics so much, is that the movie would be super off-putting if that type of arguing is foreign to you.

I recognize its toxic, and I hope to god I don't ever have to argue like that again, but there was a time it would have been super normal to me. Which to be honest, is something I appreciated about the movie. Malcolm got to be an angry black man without having to be a criminal, martyr or an obvious "villain".






**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

It’s not nearly on the same level but I find Virginia Woolf incredibly watchable, and was perfectly entertained by M&M, because I’m the sort of person that finds the argument I wanted to make hours if not days later. I’ve usually clammed up in the moment and completely understand why the other person is angry and just let them go off; I’m a terrible match for people who use arguments as a way to strengthen emotional bonds, lol.

The only times I’ve really gotten into extended back and forths like this involved heavy drinking, which is a part of Woolf as well I s’pose, but never to the level of trying to exorcise my partner’s soul for sure. So these sorts of movies are actually sort of cathartic in a way like I’d never relate to John Rambo but I like watching him fuck up some cops in the woods.


~~~~~~~~~
"This is the streets, and I am the trap." � Jay Bilas
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/archive/contributor/517
Hip Hop Handbook: http://tinyurl.com/ll4kzz

like after the event, walking back to the car I cussed him out fiercely. by the time we got to the second event folks were like, “what’s wrong with y’all”

not sure if I would call their relationship toxic tho. they argued, which happens in relationship but notice how they kept coming back to each other.

define petty?

lol

he had no control over the situation but he also wasn’t the best at communicating.

My brother is a wild one who says shit in argument you can't take back. And then comes around like everything is cool afterwards. I am not a fan of that ish.

I really don't think I say shit in an argument that I don't mean...which can be worst, because if I said it I mean it.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

some people say wild shit but you know its just to hurt feelings.

my sister is the same way..

I’m the opposite. I aint saying shit just to get you mad.

I’ve also learned to stfu when before I would say something and then all hell would break loose.

remember the bath tub scene, when he was describing the other women?

awful
awful
awful

no one want to hear about past experiences; especially if we’ve done the same things.

/

In my experience, I may have bruised his ego while cussing him out. like calling him a dumb ass for not knowing something.

it's so obvious why the people who like this movie for this reason like this movie.

y'all are *desperate* to be allowed to be white men.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

if either were really good at acting before this, i liked this better
than i thought i would. i wonder if they're together in real life. yeah
and both seem like narcissists in the movie.

Marie was the asshole.

When in a relationship, there are certain days you let your partner have. Graduation, child birth, when he/she gets an award or some other recognition, when they bury a love one, etc.

I'm not saying she gotta come home and suck his dick and proclaim him supreme being.

But, on that day, it's my opinion that she shoulda let him have it. Perhaps she was right and deserved her thanks, but, you can't let the nigga have his day?

(I know y'all are gonna say she tried to get him to let it go at the beginning, and you're right)

was it his mother or Taylor that noticed as well? on the most important day of your life you forget to thank your lady...that’s painful.

no one’s more supportive than your lady

while he’s pulling all nighters, she’s making his ass mac and cheese...listening to his a**

yeah, we arguing lol

but I think when you push it the day of, it pushes it to another level.

Let the man have his day, then get in his ass tomorrow.

*Edit: Also, she's not his wife. Girlfriend might get the shaft on the recognition. That's kinda part of the game.

we live together
you’ve healed me
I’ve healed you

how do you forget me?

oh wait, girlfriends don’t get acknowledged...why even invite me lol

damn

>Marie was the asshole.
>
>When in a relationship, there are certain days you let your
>partner have. Graduation, child birth, when he/she gets an
>award or some other recognition, when they bury a love one,
>etc.
>
>I'm not saying she gotta come home and suck his dick and
>proclaim him supreme being.
>
>But, on that day, it's my opinion that she shoulda let him
>have it. Perhaps she was right and deserved her thanks, but,
>you can't let the nigga have his day?
>
>(I know y'all are gonna say she tried to get him to let it go
>at the beginning, and you're right)

>

>

He only brought up his sexual exploits with those other women because he wanted to hurt Marie by telling her to her face about them. Those small detail moments weren't what made Malcolm's movie. He admits at the end of the argument that the entire thrust of the movie is based on Marie.

Wyclef inspired Miseducation, but I don't think he deserves thanks for it.

she has a right to be upset and I think he has a right to not want to hear that shit on that night.

I didnt see the whole movie tho..

Malcolm's movie is all about a woman who's just like Marie.

So that analogy doesn't really track.

But also, as I said below, I thought this was a really bad movie, so I don't really feel compelled to defend a take about a bad movie one way or another.

I only saw it once, but I don't think the movie was Marie's her life story. It was just a story about a drug addict and he took some elements.

I don't know why that's so different than Lauryn Hill or Adele making an album inspired by a man, and then not thanking him for their awards.

Malcolm and Marie were still together.

It took me a long time to feel Marie's side of the argument just because I know what its like on your Big Day for a miserable partner to try and bring you down.

I actually don't love that "I am the only one to ground you" talk. I mean its true its needed but its also used as cover for a partner that is a low key hater.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

its not about being thanked, although it was important, being thanked in this case was largely symbolic.

it was supposed to be a moment where they were BOTH arriving together. Sure, he is the person who is supposed to get the credit and accolades and the fame, but she was supposed to be by his side. She was there from day one to the end and he just straight up forgot the person who rode for him.

They started off having dreams together

i haven't seen the movie and don't plan to. i hate films that center around an arguing couple ..also why i didn't watch the Marriage Story...its too triggering for me..i was in an emotionally abusive marriage once and i just can't

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

acknowledging there is certain content you want to avoid because it may be triggering based on your past experience and yet in the same post you calling someone else names because they ask someone to leave them alone?

And of course, I have other options like leave the site or not respond but you want to insert yourself into a discussion about a movie about toxic relationships you don't want to see because it's triggering just to tell someone else that they are being a baby for taking steps to avoid toxic behavior?

I disagree with your point about knowing people here. I don't know anyone here even after all this time, and I've come to realize I don't know what anybody else is going through on this site so if someone asks me to leave them alone, I can leave them alone.

Look its pretty clear at this point he won't do it but at the very least, I want the record to be clear that I don't want the interaction.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

ignore his posts. him replying to you isn't stopping your life.

similarly, i won't watch the film. It existing isn't stopping my life.

d

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

Black people don't eat mac and cheese from a box...

And why was he eating it and grunting?

and I don’t even eat it. he was eating the heck out it lol

I think its something he liked. I know some black kids that love because they grew up eating it...

Supposedly the film with that scene was lost and he had to redo it a few ties and was tired af of that Mac n cheese


>Black people don't eat mac and cheese from a box...
>
>And why was he eating it and grunting?

Their use of music as meta, passive aggressive commentary to express how they are feeling was interesting. And she chose the song "Get Rid of Him" with the lyrics:

He is the one who'll tease your cryin'
He's only out to break your heart
Him with his cheatin' and he's lyin'
He's gonna rip your dreams apart

Previous moments in their fight touch on faithfulness, but it's never outright said that he (or she) cheated. So was this song choice confirmation he previously cheated or was it picked because 95% of the lyrics worked and it also happens to reference cheating?

Mainly because he lorded over her head the fact that she cheated on him.

Also when the dude tried to fight as dirty as he possibly could all he could bring up was old jawns. If he was cheating that would have been the atomic bomb he could have dropped in that situation.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

and I know anyone in a relationship wants to be thanked on the grand stage but damn.. they really went there with it.

I was dying at the mac n cheese

Thats some ole big ass kid shit right there. “you really dogging me out while eating mac n cheese I made for you?”

like it was made with love.

and she still made him mac and cheese.

but I get what they were trying to say.

As someone who is married, I’ve been mad af and still made her food and vice versa. I mean.. it will be made with attitude tho.

and yes, I understand being upset he didn’t thank her but I believe things like that are used when there is a deeper issue at play.

He prolly self absorbed and all about himself, especially in that moment.
She is prolly mad she didn’t chase her dreams.

real talk tho, when my wife wins an award or gets recognition on stage I dont ever look for my name or praise. Thats her time to shine and she is a part of me, when she wins, I win.

... and then yelled at her in long, rambling monologues about how she's crazy for being hurt by that. He also weaponized her past against her, casually eating mac and cheese while he emotionally abused her.

He's also just an asshole in general. A really boring, long-winded asshole.

(I didn't like this movie at all.)

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

But very rarely do you see one where blackness is used by the white filmmaker as a shield against criticism of his own white work. And rarely by a filmmaker that's so marginally talented.

I liked this review of the movie a lot and agreed with most everything said within it: https://www.filmfreakcentral.net/ffc/2021/02/malcolm-marie.html

So yeah, Bradley Rockwell is gonna betray white folks on this one, lol.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I think it's wrong-headed for soo many reasons. Namely:

1. This review, like many of the negative reviews I have read about the film, give WAAAY to much agency to the writer & director. I mean I will admit my initial reaction is I didn't want to watch a white writer/director tell a black romance story and I watched it for the sole purpose of being able to properly tear it apart (I guarantee some of the people trashing it in this post haven't seen the movie). When I saw the movie it didn't line up with my expectations and I did the research to figure out why and it became clear. Denzel's Son (DS) and Zendaya were not passively casts by Barry Levinson's son (BLS). This is just as much Zendaya's project. It was her idea to do a movie with BLS, she approached him to find a project they could do under COVID conditions. This is what they came up with. THEY cast DS. DS and Zendaya funded the project (along with Kid Cudi, yeah random). There are all these articles and video clips where DS and Zendaya talked about their role in shaping the story and dialogue. Yeah DS came up with a story based on his experience but all these reviews premised on the idea that BLS is doing blackface ventroquilism isn't factually correct and belittles and erases Zendaya and DS's contributions to this project.


2. It was after reading this line I stopped reading and had to check the race of the author.

"as a Black director, is only compared to other Black directors as opposed to people like William Wyler and Billy Wilder? Does he mean real directors, or does he mean white directors? Does he mean that he doesn't like to be compared to John Singleton and Spike Lee because they are not good, or because they are Black and what he does, what Malcolm does, is entirely independent of his identity as a Black man? Is he suggesting that he has no identity as a Black artist? "

Sorry to reduce it to race but I don't think a black writer would write this. As a black creative, I 100% identify with the concern of being pigeon-holed into thinking that I am only a black writer and I have no place writing outside of writing black work. Its the reason why in my first project I wanted to make clear I could write for white characters. Its a reason why Shonda Rhymes creates the shows the way she does. It was a motivation for Spike to do 25th hour. It is not at all a diss of Spike or Singleton or Jenkins and it in no way elevates Wilder over those great black directors. And the discussion of whether black art is political by its nature is also a discussion that goes back as long as black creatives have had voices. Amari Barakai was talking about it when he wrote, paraphrasing, all black art is political and if it ain't political it isn't black art. its what Trey Ellis wrote about in his seminal essay the New Black Aesthetic. Its what I wrote my thesis on. Incidently, I spent a great portion of my thesis trying to define "Black Film" and by that old definition, I think there is a strong argument to be made that M&M isn't Black Art but that's another discussion. At any rate, again, its insulting to think that BS su generis created this debate and ignores the black artist and intellectuals who have been struggling to define black art and the politics of Black Arts as long as there has been black art.


3. But most importantly, only the critics give a sh*t about the debate about critics and black art. Go to twitter and search "Malcolm and Marie" and you will see, besides the critics, most people are not talking about the meaning of criticism and the nature of black art. Look at this post. What are people talking about? For the most part, what people were invested in and talked about is toxic relationships. Its by far the most compelling thing about the movie. Its what people Identified with (for better for worst) and had a lot to say about it. In fact, and sorry for the generalization, I went to twitter fully expecting Black Woman to overwhelming hate the movie because DS was so toxic but I was surprised to see how many black women identified with it. I think that's a testament to Zendaya's fingerprints on the movie, not BLS.

4. Look I am not even here trying to argue that this is a "great movie". TBH, I am not sure yet. My wife asked if she should watch it and I not sure I can recommend it. I want to watch it again (when I feel like watching it again). Alot of people aren't interesting in watching people fight for 90 minutes. However, I think the critical response doesn't reflect how a large segment is seeing the movie who don't know anything about the director, or that "white lady from Variety". TBH, I think there is a lot of handwringing over some "white lady from Variety" who may or may not exist to the extent it is drowning out what Zendaya and Denzel's Son accomplished. To put another way, to view this movie so narrowly regarding how it might hurt the feelings of a "white lady from variety" misses out on the best thing going for the film and the thing that non-critics responded to.









>But very rarely do you see one where blackness is used by the
>white filmmaker as a shield against criticism of his own white
>work. And rarely by a filmmaker that's so marginally
>talented.
>
>I liked this review of the movie a lot and agreed with most
>everything said within it:
>https://www.filmfreakcentral.net/ffc/2021/02/malcolm-marie.html
>
>So yeah, Bradley Rockwell is gonna betray white folks on this
>one, lol.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

for taking all that time to explain stuff to people who take pride in not having an actual opinion (just criticizing someone else's), and then revel in not even researching their non-opinion.

Despite thinking everything he has expressed about this movie is wrong.


I also want to put my thoughts down somewhere and workshop something that may turn into an actual review.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I don’t fuck with Woody Allen or care for QT

so I get it if someone is familiar with this guys work and doesn’t like him

So I guess I don't have any of the baggage of his other stuff against.

TBH, I also don't get alot of the criticism that hates the film because Denzel's Son is so toxic. I think that's pretty much the point. He's not really the "hero" of this story.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I guess dude likes filming addicts for some reason.

"TBH, I think there is a lot of handwringing over some "white lady from Variety" who may or may not exist to the extent it is drowning out what Zendaya and Denzel's Son accomplished. "

what kind of person writes ix paragraphs defending a movie only to claim he's not sure if it's actually good and pretends that he doesn't have google

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

and come to find out it wasn’t totally about her...

I liked it because it left me wondering if they worked it out. I was rooting for them lol

I just wanted them to stfu and go to bed mad.. lol.

Didnt give a shit about the directors hidden agenda. Not familiar with him or his story. I just like seeing Black people on film.

both of them are fucked up, but not irredeemably so. They have some good patterns and foundations that can be built upon, like Malcom's ability to reflect and learn, his loyalty or Marie's support of Malcom, her openness or willingness to let all her ugly hang out. But, they also have some extremely toxic habits.

They both need therapy. Malcom's priviledged upbringing does not mean he is without issues. The fact that he had a history of "saving" broken people or having an attraction to tragic figures points to some deep unacknowledged shit in his past.

I almost want to say Malcom has some personality disorder thing going on, but I don't think thats really the case since he's able to display empathy...to a point.

Marie has some obvious tells of trauma. Shes stuck in a loop...or she WAS stuck in a loop.

https://www.indiewire.com/2021/02/zendaya-malcolm-marie-critics-white-director-1234618459/




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

about the collaborative process

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

We need a snyder cut.