Never in my life have I heard someone use the word "females" in conversation and follow it up with anything of substance. It's always on some fuckshit.

Hell yes I'm being judgy as fuck because it feels like a placeholder word for "bitches".

"These females today..."

As soon as that gem is dropped I gotta lean in because I know I'm about to hear a bunch of garbage - even if the person is smart, woke, conscious. No one is above imperfection. We all have blind spots - but, I notice a connection to the use of "female" a pejorative to be connected to an antiquated set of ideas about the world and gender roles.


It sound like some shit you would hear if you were a fly on a wall listening to a conversation between Steve Harvey, Terry Crews, Trump, Richard Spencer, Bishop Don, Snoop and Kanye.

I definitely take note of who still says "females."
A lot of people you ain't gonna learn shit from.

>
>It sound like some shit you would hear if you were a fly on a
>wall listening to a conversation between Steve Harvey, Terry
>Crews, Trump, Richard Spencer, Bishop Don, Snoop and Kanye.
>
>

like is it supposed to be a comparison term in relation to the
gender of the homosapien species. sounds very scientific.

My wife: this is Joe. He's presenting the keynote tonight.

Me: Whaddup

Joe: Hey man nice to meet you. Hey, let me ask you a question. Where did you meet your wife? I've been dating and these females...

Me: 😦

whoa.

.

Nine times out of ten, "women" would suffice.

to identify male vs female, not in a judgement of ones intellectual, emotional, or physical capabilities.

America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

Like Southern Men and Women use it all the time without all this baggage.


Reminds me of this girl I know who got into trouble at her progressive workplace because she used the term "guys" in a meeting to refer to everyone. She was a Mexican girl from not a great school or area and she was being lectured by her more privileged co-workers for using language that everyone from where she is from, used.


I wonder who is suppose to change for who.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

some regular old state college huh?

90% free lunch and 35% graduation rate.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Dudes that said females the most were the type to be in the mall trying to get the most numbers

>Like Southern Men and Women use it all the time without all
>this baggage.

just because they think it doesn't carry any baggage doesn't mean that it's ok. as a fellow southerner, i hear it a lot and i hate it more and more

>
>Reminds me of this girl I know who got into trouble at her
>progressive workplace because she used the term "guys" in a
>meeting to refer to everyone. She was a Mexican girl from not
>a great school or area and she was being lectured by her more
>privileged co-workers for using language that everyone from
>where she is from, used.
>
>
>I wonder who is suppose to change for who.

everyone is supposed to change for everyone else. i believe the goal is to work towards not referring to people by their gender or sex since it is often viewed as their defining characteristic, especially in traditionally conservative and patriarchal areas like the mid- and deep south. i had to work a bit to stop saying "guys" and shift to the all-inclusive "y'all." i'm working on "they" as a replacement for "he/she" but that one is really hard to shed

btw your post is the definition of conservatism. you get older, more out of touch, and falsely assume that ideologies of your youth should be how people should approach those same concepts concurrently. it's been fascinating to watch a lot of you gen x males on this board buck against progressive efforts for no other reason than it not being the way it was when you were younger

>>Like Southern Men and Women use it all the time without all
>>this baggage.
>
>just because they think it doesn't carry any baggage doesn't
>mean that it's ok. as a fellow southerner, i hear it a lot
>and i hate it more and more


Why do you hate it?


>
>>
>>Reminds me of this girl I know who got into trouble at her
>>progressive workplace because she used the term "guys" in a
>>meeting to refer to everyone. She was a Mexican girl from
>not
>>a great school or area and she was being lectured by her
>more
>>privileged co-workers for using language that everyone from
>>where she is from, used.
>>
>>
>>I wonder who is suppose to change for who.
>
>everyone is supposed to change for everyone else. i believe
>the goal is to work towards not referring to people by their
>gender or sex since it is often viewed as their defining
>characteristic, especially in traditionally conservative and
>patriarchal areas like the mid- and deep south. i had to work
>a bit to stop saying "guys" and shift to the all-inclusive
>"y'all." i'm working on "they" as a replacement for "he/she"
>but that one is really hard to shed


I just think this is so ridiculously wrong. This is the equivalent of saying "I don't see color" which was thought to be a progressive stance 30 years ago until people realize that if you have to ignore a trait in order to accept it, then there is an underlying issue not being address which is the real problem.

I believe you should be able to acknowledge, recognize and appreciate someone's gender or sex and do so without discriminating towards them and making them feel included. If I join a call with three women and I say "good afternoon ladies" and none of them are offended or bothered by it, who are you or any other person to say that greeting is inappropriate?

You are doing all this work to change the language you use but let me ask you this, can you explain to me why I shouldn't refer to a woman as she if she prefers to be referred to as "she" and would not want to be referred to as "they"?



>btw your post is the definition of conservatism. you get
>older, more out of touch, and falsely assume that ideologies
>of your youth should be how people should approach those same
>concepts concurrently. it's been fascinating to watch a lot
>of you gen x males on this board buck against progressive
>efforts for no other reason than it not being the way it was
>when you were younger

BTW, your post is the definition of condescending fake deepness. You describe me as out of touch but by FAR most people don't see an issue with referring to people by their gender or sex when it is appropriate. It is out of touch with most people to think that using he or she is offensive or inappropriate.

I wouldn't describe myself as progressive or conservative because I believe if your entire politics can be summed up with one word, you aren't thinking hard enough or reading enough about the hard complicated topics that neither end of the ideological spectrum has figured out entirely.

I will say that the older I get the more skeptical I get on a lot of progressive quick-fix ideas that try to solve complex topics with changes in language. "females", "he/she" or other quick word fixes aren't the problem, but the language is often used to condescend towards others to feel superior.

I guess I am old enough to see people label progressive screw over black and brown people just as easily as people labeled conservative but do it using the right language so it doesn't optically look as bad.





**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>You are doing all this work to change the language you use but
>let me ask you this, can you explain to me why I shouldn't
>refer to a woman as she if she prefers to be referred to as
>"she" and would not want to be referred to as "they"?

You're talking about a single person, addressing their preferred pronoun.

Seems to me, they're referring circumstances where they're addressing an entire group at once, and choosing a more inclusive term.

>I will say that the older I get the more skeptical I get on a
>lot of progressive quick-fix ideas that try to solve complex
>topics with changes in language. "females", "he/she" or other
>quick word fixes aren't the problem, but the language is often
>used to condescend towards others to feel superior.

Why do you think these are seen as "quick fixes to solve complex topics with a change in language"?

Who, exactly, is saying that simply changing the terminology is the fix? These are mere pieces of the puzzle, and among the simplest things we can correct.

Who is saying pronouns are "the" problem?

It's "a" problem, which is generally symptomatic of greater, far deeper problems, but that doesn't mean it's not worth addressing on it's own.

The situation with the woman at work is a great example of ass backward "progressives", so I'm in no way saying that doesn't exist. It is very much a problem, but the fact that people are only dealing wit the surface level issues doesn't mean that everyone who deals with those surface issues likewise makes that the stopping point.

of her/she.

That's not making an argument for using a person's preferred pronouns, that's making the case for not using gendered pronouns at all.

My point is that there is a cultural bias in this conversation and we should take into consideration people's background and their intent and how such language is received (i.e., if everyone in the conversation is fine with it, who are we to judge?)

The response to that point is condescendingly calling me conservative, out of touch and stuck to old ideas for no other reason than that's how I was raised.

So in an effort to argue about being more inclusive, bearfield is being condescending and judgemental...that's the opposite of inclusive. So to answer your question I would say bearfield is putting the surface level language above deeper ideas and notions of what inclusivity looks like.


>>You are doing all this work to change the language you use
>but
>>let me ask you this, can you explain to me why I shouldn't
>>refer to a woman as she if she prefers to be referred to as
>>"she" and would not want to be referred to as "they"?
>
>You're talking about a single person, addressing their
>preferred pronoun.
>
>Seems to me, they're referring circumstances where they're
>addressing an entire group at once, and choosing a more
>inclusive term.
>
>>I will say that the older I get the more skeptical I get on
>a
>>lot of progressive quick-fix ideas that try to solve complex
>>topics with changes in language. "females", "he/she" or
>other
>>quick word fixes aren't the problem, but the language is
>often
>>used to condescend towards others to feel superior.
>
>Why do you think these are seen as "quick fixes to solve
>complex topics with a change in language"?
>
>Who, exactly, is saying that simply changing the terminology
>is the fix? These are mere pieces of the puzzle, and among the
>simplest things we can correct.
>
>Who is saying pronouns are "the" problem?
>
>It's "a" problem, which is generally symptomatic of greater,
>far deeper problems, but that doesn't mean it's not worth
>addressing on it's own.
>
>The situation with the woman at work is a great example of ass
>backward "progressives", so I'm in no way saying that doesn't
>exist. It is very much a problem, but the fact that people are
>only dealing wit the surface level issues doesn't mean that
>everyone who deals with those surface issues likewise makes
>that the stopping point.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Does she have to sit in the corner during lunch breaks or did they simply ask her to try and use something gender neutral when addressing mixed company?

Now you can say that's no big deal but remember this is in the context of a latina who is already feeling isolated in her majority white workplace being censured and pulling in HR because her white co-workers didn't approve of her language.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

but was there reason to think she got singled out and treated differently? It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case, and that would definitely suck, but if that happens to everyone using non-inclusive language I think it's not necessarily unfair.

FWIW I think reporting people to HR for use of slightly inappropriate language is doing too much, but if that's the policy and they're not selective on when it's enforced, there's not really much else to say.

So there is always a level of subjectiveness in how you enforce policies around inclusion.

I am not anti-inclusion efforts, I am just making the point that even inclusion efforts can be used to make black and brown people feel excluded.



>but was there reason to think she got singled out and treated
>differently? It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case, and
>that would definitely suck, but if that happens to everyone
>using non-inclusive language I think it's not necessarily
>unfair.
>
>FWIW I think reporting people to HR for use of slightly
>inappropriate language is doing too much, but if that's the
>policy and they're not selective on when it's enforced,
>there's not really much else to say.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

It's my natural, attention getting phrase... "Hey guys".
In my mind it's entirely non-gendered at this point, at least in that context. Guys is just a group of people.

But stepping back, I can see some underlying issues with it. Like, why is it guys and not gals? I don't see it is as necessarily problematic, but it's something.

So I'm starting to use "everyone" instead. "Hey everyone..." It's kind of like a discipline exercise. I slip up from time to time. But it's starting to stick.

i think ive even used it in scenarios where im the only guy. in informal conversation i will go to yall. being from texas its just normal. seems kind of weird to say yall in a professional setting but i guess being from texas would give me a pass.

all is my alternative that i try to remember to use. seems less awkward than everyone but still seems weird.

team is one i used heavily in emails especially at my old job when it was exclusively all coworkers. seems like this would be the best choice even when its not all coworkers as its welcoming and positive. i might try it next time and see how it feels.

i think i do fine in email conversation in sticking with all or an alternative but when i am speaking im less confident so i just blurt out what comes to me. i think a way i try to overcome my nervousness when talking is by being friendly and thats why guys is what i go to which obviously has the potential to be offensive so yeah need to stop that.

according to google here are some alternatives
hey team
hey crew
hey all
hey folks
hey people
hey peeps
hey y'all
hey everyone
hey pals
hey friends

hey

Philly dudes stay calling someone a "female."

like was previously suggested.

and a very weird line in the sand to draw.

i mean i see it on twitter but thats twitter.

Are they out there? Perhaps

But remains to be seen

>Never in my life have I heard someone use the word "females"
>in conversation and follow it up with anything of substance.
>It's always on some fuckshit.
>
>Hell yes I'm being judgy as fuck because it feels like a
>placeholder word for "bitches".

In some instances it is, would you prefer they use that? The flip side of this is how some otherwise would-be progressive women regularly refer to men as “niggas”. I love the show Insecure but it always bothered me how casually Issa throws that word around on there referring specifically to men. It has been suggested that she has issues with black men but that’s another conversation.

>
>"These females today..."
>
>As soon as that gem is dropped I gotta lean in because I know
>I'm about to hear a bunch of garbage - even if the person is
>smart, woke, conscious. No one is above imperfection. We all
>have blind spots - but, I notice a connection to the use of
>"female" a pejorative to be connected to an antiquated set of
>ideas about the world and gender roles.
>
>
>It sound like some shit you would hear if you were a fly on a
>wall listening to a conversation between Steve Harvey, Terry
>Crews, Trump, Richard Spencer, Bishop Don, Snoop and Kanye.

not sure why they would all be in the same room.

I have never heard a Latino, Arab, White or Asian man use "females" in a way that this post is referring to.

I personally think it is better than saying bitches, hoes, broads, chicks etc..

When a black man is annoyed, angry, hurt, disappointed or has any strong negative emotion toward a woman (particularly a black woman), he uses "female".

I think it is fine. Let men say what they want.

The barometer for the world at large.

>I have never heard a Latino, Arab, White or Asian man use
>"females" in a way that this post is referring to.

That *you* have heard this doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Because it does. While Black men may do this, it's nowhere near unique to them. This is also red pill/incel jargon that spreads across racial lines, instead existing as an element of a broader segment of angry, entitled men.

And not only will they refer to women as females, they'll refer to them as "the female", and most of them are pasty, neckbearded slobs who also hate brown people of all shades.

It's exceedingly easy to look this stuff up, so you don't have much of an excuse to blanket Black men with this charge, despite your unfortunate personal experiences.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

"Only Black Men of a Certain Group Say This" isn't undone by then listing her personal experience.

"only" really doesn't have any wiggle room in this context, and there are others besides Black men who use the term in that way.

It's false by definition.

Had she simply cited her personal experience, absent the header, that would have limited it to her personal experience.

But that's not the way this reads at all.

As written, it reads "only X does y, and I've never heard anyone but X do Y".

Until/unless she offers clarification, there is no reasonable argument that she limited the statement to her personal experience.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

"But rest assured, in my luxurious house built on the backs of people darker than me, I am sipping fine scotch and scoffing at how stupid you are." - bshelly

I don't use the word myself, but I think a lot of people make this argument disingenuously. I remember a recording of a conversation between Melissa Harris-Perry and bell hooks during the Obama presidency. One of the things that stood out to me was the number of times that bell hooks called women females, and how the Black Feminist Twitteratti completely ignored it even though it's supposed to be a particular bugbear of theirs.

Black Female Voices: Who is Listening - A public dialogue between bell hooks + Melissa Harris-Perry

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5OmgqXao1ng

someone saying “hey guys”

whats funny tho is out company recently hired a guy on the tech side. He was gay and made sure to let us know early on.

anyway, his manager was happy she was able to hire someone who was diverse and he was really good at his job.

Dude called up the boss over the christmas break and cold cussed his ass out.. also called his own mom and cussed her out too. He was going thru something. Boss actually forgave him and they talked things out but he couldn’t get over his embarrassment and quit a week later.

no real point to it but I guess what I’m trying to say is.. cant people just go directly to the person and say “hey, word to the wise.. saying xyz will offend some people” instead of having it on their record?

They are disrespectful af.

fixed that for you.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Especially when she was very specific with the context?

You asked me how what Mori said was false, despite her making a statement that was definitive and declarative, with no further context to allow any interpretive wiggle room.

She said:

"Only a segment of X does Y. I've never seen anyone but X do Y."

Here, afrogirl lost was very specific about the context of her statement, yet you took the liberty to "fix" her own statement of her own perspective by removing all of the context from her statement.

By contrast, she said:

"I hate X that do Y".

What's the reasoning behind that?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

The point is her issue with men doesn't begin with their use of the words "Female" based on past comments.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Nor does she say that's where it ends.

I mean she has issues with men long before and aside from their use of the word "female".



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

and misogyny. You should question why you’re so comfortable with it.

You could at least point to specific things I have said that supports your namecalling... if you can.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

You lot are just getting worse, really.

Any attempt by a woman to hold men accountable for -- by your (the collective 'your') own admission -- is shitty behavior, means she hates men.

That narrative is as boring as it is lazy.

FOH.

But I am the one getting worst? SMH.

All moral authority is out the window after seeing that. That is not a person who should lecture anyone on anything. That was not an act of holding men accounting but rather reveals a deep seeded hatred of something that should not go unchecked.

>You lot are just getting worse, really.
>
>Any attempt by a woman to hold men accountable for -- by your
>(the collective 'your') own admission -- is shitty behavior,
>means she hates men.
>
>That narrative is as boring as it is lazy.
>
>FOH.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

It’s amazing how misogynists like you get so up in arms about another misogynist being held accountable for their hypocrisy. Keep crying about it.

But I am not always proud of interactions here and I am open to hearing what behavior I've done that you think is trolling.

I can point to your behavior which I think is reprehensible though. Can you give an example of my behavior that rises anywhere to the level of that?

And you'd like to make it a man versus woman thing but, forget Case, you participated in mocking a woman's miscarriage. Probably the lowest moment I have ever seen on these boards (in support of dude who did the other most reprehensible thing I've seen on these boards done to a woman).

And we all have our low moments here but to not acknowledge that was terrible...yeah, no you can call names all you want but again, I do not think you have any moral standing to lecture anyone.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I pointed out the hypocrisy of Case spending YEARS using his so-called Christian values to speak out against abortion, LGBTQ folks, people with STI’s, etc, but wanting support when his wife needed a D&C, which is essentially an abortion. If you can’t see why that’s problematic, you are either dumb or inherently dishonest. Miss me with your morality talk. You are a disgusting misogynist whose morality is so deeply guided by patriarchy that you can’t see how offensive (and wrong) you are. Troll.

If you can't see that then not a whole lot else to say.

I will finish by pointing out I gave a clear example of your bad behavior while you call me names and say I am blinded to how offensive and wrong I am, but yet, you couldn't point to any specific examples when asked. SMH.

But I am the troll.


I have said my piece. I am sure you got some parting non-trolling name calling to do but I am done. Enjoy your weekend.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

You’re in your patriarchal feelings. Again. I never mocked a miscarriage. I agreed with another OKP who pointed out Case’s hypocrisy. That person was right and I will forever stand on that element of their argument. I don’t need to point out a specific instance of your misogyny and trolling. Every time a thread about women or progressive values pops up, you’re there displaying your awful views.

that's my new word.

>it feels like a
>placeholder word for "bitches".
>
>"These females today..."


Cool, because your post title makes a blanket statement whereas this is sensibly specific.
This sounds like someone talking about dating and relationships.. In this case, I would assume "women" is the correct word unless the person is a minor, in which case, "girls" would usually be appropriate.

For instance, if I'm talking about a statistic that includes both women and girls, I use the word "female", just as I use the word "male" if covering men and boys.
The rather faulty basis that males should not use to word "female" under any circumstances is where I've always seen this conversation begin and end with unnecessary hostility.

that’s what I understood...

we got a problem

RIP DOOM.

no, bitch is never ok, unless if you're a dog breeder. if that's the case, then fine, your job is to literally fuck bitches and get money.

Words on work call cause I started to say it to clarify a matter about an employee. I see the context in this post which is obviously abhorrent but is it ever ok to say it? Again this was a work call

Personally I think referring to women as females is dodgy as hell, but as an adjective it serves a purpose and seems innocuous to me most of the time.

a lot more than M/W it seems, so maybe I'm biased bc that's where I've seen female used the most (none of the black men I've known use 'females' in the manner described in the OP... that said, some African men can refer to a woman as "Woman!" instead of her name, which gives off a vibe similar to what's being described in this post lol).

But ya, in study context (and most others, to me personally) 'female' being used as an adjective (eg. comparing male and female study subjects) doesn't read negatively to me at all. Especially since the term can be used for different age groups.

I can see the negative connotations everyone's talking about if its used as a noun tho (although I don't encounter it much, like I said). For example in the folowing exclamations:


"I can't believe the US elected it's first female VP!"

"I can't believe the VP is female!"

"I can't believe a female is VP!"


^the last one does kinda give off a different vibe than the first two (in a negative/displeased way)



>Personally I think referring to women as females is dodgy as
>hell, but as an adjective it serves a purpose and seems
>innocuous to me most of the time.
>
>

My view is probably a little skewed from mostly experiencing English in online situations (and I really can't speak to the racial component), but I associate the use of the noun with a subtle undercurrent of misogyny.

To me it kind of feels like black as an adjective vs. black(s) as a noun to describe people, even if it carries a different weight.

you raise a good point tho, about work contexts.

I'm sure you were fine. I don't think I'd be offended by a colleague

describing another colleague as female. Or as male.

I kinda feel like I'd have to have similar misgivings about use of the term "male colleagues", which I don't. So if somebody said something along the lines of blah blah blah our first female Executive Director I don't think I'd blink at all. That's just me tho.


>Words on work call cause I started to say it to clarify a
>matter about an employee. I see the context in this post which
>is obviously abhorrent but is it ever ok to say it? Again this
>was a work call

The word "female" in conversation is generally followed by stereotypical sexist babble. But at the same time "these women" is usually followed by the same.

Another phrase like that is "real man". It's generally followed by stereotypical sexist battle.

I also think that describing a woman as a female in most non-scientific contexts raises hackles because a) it's NEVER how men are referred to... you never hear 'males' as a synonym for 'men;' and b) it's reductive.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

In a world where the LGBTQQIP2SAA community is fighting for clearly very specific definitional awareness and recognition, we should refer to individuals as "females" to distinguish them as having the ability to produce eggs and possibly bear offspring.

We desire (and now live in) a society where a man can have a child, and it would be medically irresponsible and dangerous to not acknowledge that man as being a female so that he can receive proper care.

These conversations have already been had by people far more intelligent and with more relevant experience than us. No need to overthink.

No offense fam but I think you might wanna sit this one out.

this whole labeling shit is all types of overthinking

them
they
cisgender

smh.. out here sounding like idiots calling one person a them or a they.

throws hands in air

and xe are a female. I think it's important to denote that.

I was asking about them they because he’s one of those super duper progressive dudes..

I’m just getting up on the them they and now they got Xem and Xey?

https://www.them.us/story/gender-neutral-pronouns-101-they-them-xe-xem

this is going to be interesting

I heard of the X but not the Z

I wonder what’s next.