“Every data point was altered to present the best picture possible,” Bob Crowley, an Army colonel who served as a senior counterinsurgency adviser to U.S. military commanders in 2013 and 2014, told government interviewers. “Surveys, for instance, were totally unreliable but reinforced that everything we were doing was right and we became a self-licking ice cream cone.”

https://media1.tenor.com/images/f724d21b98ca150a6311a75bf8897c2f/tenor.gif?itemid=11845590


https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

With most speaking on the assumption that their remarks would not become public, U.S. officials acknowledged that their warfighting strategies were fatally flawed and that Washington wasted enormous sums of money trying to remake Afghanistan into a modern nation.

The interviews also highlight the U.S. government’s botched attempts to curtail runaway corruption, build a competent Afghan army and police force, and put a dent in Afghanistan’s thriving opium trade.

The U.S. government has not carried out a comprehensive accounting of how much it has spent on the war in Afghanistan, but the costs are staggering.

Since 2001, the Defense Department, State Department and U.S. Agency for International Development have spent or appropriated between $934 billion and $978 billion, according to an inflation-adjusted estimate calculated by Neta Crawford, a political science professor and co-director of the Costs of War Project at Brown University.

Those figures do not include money spent by other agencies such as the CIA and the Department of Veterans Affairs, which is responsible for medical care for wounded veterans.

“What did we get for this $1 trillion effort? Was it worth $1 trillion?” Jeffrey Eggers, a retired Navy SEAL and White House staffer for Bush and Obama, told government interviewers. He added, “After the killing of Osama bin Laden, I said that Osama was probably laughing in his watery grave considering how much we have spent on Afghanistan.”

The documents also contradict a long chorus of public statements from U.S. presidents, military commanders and diplomats who assured Americans year after year that they were making progress in Afghanistan and the war was worth fighting.



Several of those interviewed described explicit and sustained efforts by the U.S. government to deliberately mislead the public. They said it was common at military headquarters in Kabul — and at the White House — to distort statistics to make it appear the United States was winning the war when that was not the case.

“Every data point was altered to present the best picture possible,” Bob Crowley, an Army colonel who served as a senior counterinsurgency adviser to U.S. military commanders in 2013 and 2014, told government interviewers. “Surveys, for instance, were totally unreliable but reinforced that everything we were doing was right and we became a self-licking ice cream cone.”

John Sopko, the head of the federal agency that conducted the interviews, acknowledged to The Post that the documents show “the American people have constantly been lied to.”

>"we became a self-licking ice cream cone.”

I'm stealing this. These army guys are a bunch of regular Mark Twains.

And to return to regularly scheduled programming, remember the next time somebody says that a big, pricey universal public program isn't possible that we spent trillions of dollars - without asking how we were going to pay for it - on the idea that we could turn two separate countries into liberal democracies by blowing shit up.

>I'm stealing this. These army guys are a bunch of regular Mark Twains.

The ex-military employees always have the best motivational one-liners....

our government knows how to steal shit.

Pallets and pallets of vacuum sealed stacks.

yet stated that lying us into an illegal war which squandered trillions and wasted the lives of millions *wasn't* an impeachable offense?

Bye Nancy.

-->

so disgusting.

https://youtu.be/Ta0aM5bF2ss

Love that she called out McKinsey Consulting and all the imperial corporate contracts gorging on the people's tax dollars and rendering the region less secure.
-->

its opposition to the united states scaling back its involvement in any foreign war to any degree.

niggas been completely silent about afghanistan for the last decade but now they pop up pointing fingers at everyone from bush to obama to trump to biden...with no accountability for the media war drumbeat that got us (and kept us) over there in the first place.

theyre gonna be pissed when they find out that the american public (right and left) overwhelmingly tunes out all of this and just wants us to bring our troops home (like it did when trump announced *his* intention to withdraw troops from afghanistan).

people just dont give a fuck about americans 'fixing' other countries problems anymore. we got enough shit to fix here at home.

expecting the Afghan soldiers to stand up to the Taliban was a joke, they were undertrained and undersupplied. On the other side the Taliban are 100% will to ride and die for their for religious reasons. It's no contest.

The media will play into their hands and this will absolutely add to the slaughter Dems are going to get in '22.


Raging pandemic that the admin seems to want to pretend isn't getting worse.

Nothing will happen on voting rights thanks to Manchin, Sinema, etc


Disenchanted Dem voters.

Inflation.

Very little movement on 1/6 or holding Trump admin accountable.


And now this. I think more people care about this than you think- especially those in the middle. I'd really like to meet the person who is hyped about a Bipartisan infrastructure deal but won't care about this L.

In other words, if you buy that a big reason Democrats won in '20 is because they won over moderates.... I don't see how this doesn't add to your nerves about '22.

I don't know, man. 22 might be worse than 10.

....

you mean the united states govt misled its idiot citizens concerning what they were doing overseas militarily?! NO WAY!!

that never happens.

i am in total disbelief. wow


on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

So we had to fight them. To maintain our freedom. USA! USA! USA!

^^^That’s all the nuance the average American is capable of.

intentionally spreading false info doesn't help.

That isn't a substantive difference. That said, they don't hate us for our freedom. They just don't want it over there. We literally could have minded our own business.

>“What did we get for this $1 trillion effort? Was it worth
>$1 trillion?” Jeffrey Eggers, a retired Navy SEAL and White
>House staffer for Bush and Obama, told government
>interviewers. He added, “After the killing of Osama bin
>Laden, I said that Osama was probably laughing in his watery
>grave considering how much we have spent on Afghanistan.”

The United States is a collection of business interests. Jeffrey Eggers' bosses at Lockheed and Raytheon and whichever construction companies cashed in got paid for two entire decades on this. As far as they're concerned, we won. And because the media narrative here is so Afghanistan-specific, and doesn't feel like it's headed towards any broad critique of American imperialism, the same people who brought us this war are going to get another bite at the apple. And the apple after that. And the apple after that.

going to look like now

US still battling the pandemic, economy on the brink, etc...
vs The Taliban in control of Afghanistan

L.

of planes that are actually taking off, I've never seen anything like that outside of Fast & Furious movies

Jk they’ve been trying to pour into the border and stir up shit. It’s what they do

the same militias that Biden had the nerve to air strike while American leftists clutched their pearls.

Not a word about Pakistani ISI from this crowd too.

Failures of this magnitude don't happen by accident.



Seems like the set-up for future events.

You will say the same thing about the jab and I will not care enough to laugh at all the losers who ran out talking about they trust da "gurberment"

I don’t understand the slack Biden’s catching for the withdraw.

...the opposition party (Republicans) will say "it could have ended without looking like a total collapse"


but...

that seemingly would have taken a sort of battle to somehow briefly hurt the taliban (and supposedly not kill a lot of civilians) and that kind of battle the Republicans will say "could have worked" but...it would have just kept the USA there more.

Best democracy money can buy
Armed Madhouse

......

This is neoconservatives fault in the first place. Nation building and permanent occupations are not our strengths. Get Osama and stop right there saving $2 trillion and countless lives.

this is a disaster. exiting is probably the correct move ultimately. but the way in which they're leaving, completely abandoning a lot of people who helped the US over the last 20 years and will now be as good as dead, is widely being seen as not a good look

i know next to nothing about all this, but i see a lot of non-partisan, liberals, etc coming together in calling this is a completely unforced error

...the plan to "exit gracefully" over the last decade or so was ultimately an unimaginable waste of time and resources.

the only real answer is to never get embroiled in foreign wars. there's never ever going to be a clean ending. better to rip the bandaid off than let it fester for another 10 years.

>i know next to nothing about all this,

obviously

i said people who know more than me from many different backgrounds are calling this a mess

>I don’t understand the slack Biden’s catching for the
>withdraw.

in motion long before he got in office. You're right it was inevitable and going to be ugly no matter when it happened. The "Bring our troops home" folks want to play both sides and pretend to be horrified when they see what is happening. I have friends that served over there who lost friends and are torn up about it. I can't see how this could've ended nicely...

I thought this article was interesting...
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/19/biden-afghanistan-troop-withdrawal-taliban-al-qaeda-war-on-terror-pakistan-iran-nato/

situations

but...

internationally with the UN etc. the USA can't really do that anymore (plus some would say that the result - or curse - of doing Hiroshima in the first place has been to lose all of these guerilla conflicts that unfold because the USA can't just "nuke" enemies like we did in Japan anymore)

but if another type of serious attack occurs, the USA is seemingly strongly going to want to go the Hiroshima route.

>situations
>
>but...
>
>internationally with the UN etc. the USA can't really do that
>anymore (plus some would say that the result - or curse - of
>doing Hiroshima in the first place has been to lose all of
>these guerilla conflicts that unfold because the USA can't
>just "nuke" enemies like we did in Japan anymore)
>
>but if another type of serious attack occurs, the USA is
>seemingly strongly going to want to go the Hiroshima route.

?

reply #36

The UN has no power to stop the US or any other nuclear armed country from deploying a nuclear strike.

yep

see israel, china, syria, myanmar, etc.

the un is purely symbolic at this point. no real consequences come out of that organization.

Believing the death penalty is a deterrent against people committing murder.

Presidents like Biden and Obama have regard for the UN

but...

it is just a factor - not the sole determining thing.

..UN means that actions on the level of the USA firing off another nuke is something that is WAY DOWN the list of POSSIBILITIIES (but not "never")


The UN exists for a reason to prevent THOSE type of extreme decisions (but it is just a factor because the existence of the UN can't COMPLETELY rule out something like that happening)

we're trying to help, genius?

You realize we're at odds with groups, not countries right? That's what makes things so difficult

Japan

We were at war with the nation of Japan.

We aren’t at war with the nation of Afghanistan, we are at war with an insurgent group within Afghanistan.

The Japanese gov't ran Japan in 1945 too.

which is exactly why countries like north korea and iran seek nuclear capability and countries like afghanistan ally with countries like russia.

these countries dont run to the un to protect them from america. they run to nuclear capable adversaries of america (or push for nukes of their own).

ex:

Having a concerned parent in the home is a FACTOR in how a teenager makes choices


having a concerned parent in the home is the BEST DETERRENCE to a teenager making bad choices.

nope

95% of the press covering this White House will disagree.

(c) nicole wallace

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1427367860507226115

we have a pro-war beltway media ecosystem that is severely out of touch with the population that it covers.

like i said up top...the overwhelming reaction to bidens speech (that ive seen) has been that he is right and its no longer our battle to fight for afghanistan when afghanistan obviously isnt interested in fighting for itself.

ive seen some of bidens staunchest 'progressive' critics support him on this. ive seen anti-interventionist far right folks support biden on this (now theyve pivoted to attacking him on letting afghan refugees in the country lol). and ive seen general realists just be like 'we cant be over there forever'.

his speech just cemented the sentiment and prolly even won a few more folks over.

even conservatives like ann coulter are saying shit like this:
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1426954255169204224
https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1427347489087184898

if theres one thing to give trump credit for...its isolating the neocon forever war cheerleaders from the rest of the republican base...and robbing them of that whole 'patriotic' talking point.

america being the worlds policeman and 'spreading democracy' to other countries just isnt the knee jerk applause line that it once was anymore.

>95% of the press covering this White House will disagree.
>
>(c) nicole wallace
>
>https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1427367860507226115
>
>we have a pro-war beltway media ecosystem that is severely out
>of touch with the population that it covers.
>
>like i said up top...the overwhelming reaction to bidens
>speech (that ive seen) has been that he is right and its no
>longer our battle to fight for afghanistan when afghanistan
>obviously isnt interested in fighting for itself.

I don't agree with that take 100%, a lot of afghan soldiers died in defense of their country, when we pulled their air support as well as other support the situation was doomed. When you're on the ground and can't call that "shock and awe" in from the air it changes the game significantly.

>ive seen some of bidens staunchest 'progressive' critics
>support him on this. ive seen anti-interventionist far right
>folks support biden on this (now theyve pivoted to attacking
>him on letting afghan refugees in the country lol). and ive
>seen general realists just be like 'we cant be over there
>forever'.

I even feel conflicted about that, I've heard talk about programs to help afghan immigrants but a different approach for from immigrants from other areas...

>his speech just cemented the sentiment and prolly even won a
>few more folks over.
>
>even conservatives like ann coulter are saying shit like
>this:
>https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1426954255169204224
>https://twitter.com/AnnCoulter/status/1427347489087184898
>
>if theres one thing to give trump credit for...its isolating
>the neocon forever war cheerleaders from the rest of the
>republican base...and robbing them of that whole 'patriotic'
>talking point.
>
>america being the worlds policeman and 'spreading democracy'
>to other countries just isnt the knee jerk applause line that
>it once was anymore.

I feel like its much deeper than that, like I said above Biden inherited a pile of shit that had been steaming for 20 years.

But unless you indeed believe 9/11 was a "conspiracy" having a base of operations in that region was vital and its a threat to our national security at home to not have that.

>But unless you indeed believe 9/11 was a "conspiracy" having a
>base of operations in that region was vital and its a threat
>to our national security at home to not have that.

youre essentially justifying american imperialism/colonization. 'fighting them over there so we dont have to fight them over here' or whatever the mantra is.

the elephant in the room...the majority of people in afghanistan want taliban-style sharia law and were never going to formally recognize the puppet government that america installed to cater to a distinct minority. thats why the taliban regained control in like a week lol.

most examples from modern history show that american 'nation building' by force is rarely a long term sustainable solution that doesnt end in the eventual collapse of a governing body and a power vaccuum filled by even more extreme (and anti-american) elements.

the media covers it like a bunch of terrorists just overran a country that was hostile to them. but no...the people who ran the country before the war just regained it from a hostile occupying force.

its not our country to own and decide the future fate of.

them

i could lay out a whole bunch of differences and discrepancies and go back and forth for another 20 replies but i think its prolly best to just leave this as a 'agree to disagree' situation lol.

No matter how many discrepancies you can pick out.....


When a group runs a country - whatever country - Japan, Afghanistian...


that country - Japan, Afghanistan - will have any country who suffers an attack wanting to go at the country whose LEADERS - whether Japan or Afghanistan - were behind the attack.


You can say but the Japanese were FULLY behind the Japanese gov't in 1945 but the Afghanistan people were "iffy" about the Taliban in 2001 but....the country who gets attacked will have a SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF PEOPLE who just want to go at that country whose leaders - Japan or Afghanistan - were behind the attack.

I know left-wing people might not have a "knee jerk" reaction against an ENTIRE country, but many countries - USA or whoever - are not full left wing - so there might not be a "nuanced" left-wing reaction to any attack by leaders of another country.

>the elephant in the room...the majority of people in
>afghanistan want taliban-style sharia law and were never going
>to formally recognize the puppet government that america
>installed to cater to a distinct minority. thats why the
>taliban regained control in like a week lol.

without having a big occupying/operational presence in afghanistan.

9/11 was a blatant *domestic* security failure. we *already* had the intelligence pointing to an isis/bin laden plan to carry it out. like literally the title of an intelligence report *a month* before 9/11 (https://fas.org/irp/cia/product/pdb080601.pdf).

its just that we had an incompetent and corrupt administration that fumbled/dismissed the flashing red light.

https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427377305496793088
https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427394471801593856
https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1427406026047905792

those 3 tweets are circulating general news/culture sites (worldstar, shaderoom,etc). and they provide such a concise/succinct argument that becomes persuasive even to fence sitters.

'the buck stops with me' is always a well received notion from leaders.

whoever is writing this stuff for biden...and successfully diffusing a lot of the criticism/punditry deserves a raise.

its one of those defenses that makes the common person look at the opponent like 'what are you actually arguing against here?'.

in a moment of 'crisis' that the press was forecasting could derail his first term...he actually ends up coming off more empathetic and rational to public imo.

I thought the news conference and his speech was as good as it can get in a situation like this.

Trump did Biden a favor pushing for this withdraw for four years and convincing his base that leaving Afghanistan wasn’t just the right thing to do but by doing so was putting America First and than continuing to support Afghanistan wasn’t Making America Great Again.

He isolated the neocon warhawks and defined anyone supporting the war their was basically an out of touch elite.

It is predictable to see the MAGA base all of a sudden care for immigrants and their crisis.

womens rights lol.

when they gotta stake out a pivot to shit like that...you know how far the pendulum has swung.

But yeah, it’s funny to see them pivot to defending women’s rights, refugees, and democracy after defending trumps policies for four years.

These people don’t give a shit about Afghanis and probably couldn’t even pick out Afghanistan on a blank world map.

and their followers just spin with them.

it was literally just months ago that trump was basically biden on this. and theres a long *public* record of these folks supporting the withdrawal (at an even earlier date) on their own accounts.

trump just posted this in april:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E86PoPpWEAAmUqw?format=jpg&name=medium

and they were all for it.

being a republican gotta be a constant state of whiplash.

"neocon warhawks"

...and when we pulled out in year 101, the same thing would have happened.

This was always a fucked situation that the U.S. government never understood, and mostly succeeded in getting a lot of military industrial complex people paid. Whole lotta people died for nothing.

>...and when we pulled out in year 101, the same thing would
>have happened.
>
>This was always a fucked situation that the U.S. government
>never understood, and mostly succeeded in getting a lot of
>military industrial complex people paid. Whole lotta people
>died for nothing.

That's how long we've been there. Living humans have zero connection to it because we've been there for two decades. Was time to go. He will get attacked but this was going to happen no matter the year.

No offense but...Are you sure you didn't get caught up in the echo chamber a little?

He's underwater officially now....41% approval with USA Today, for one.


Could be an outlier, but the trends aren't good.


Honeymoon is officially over, and the Dems (as usual) did not capitalize on it.


Pandemic raging again. Very little from the admin on schools and protecting kids. Mixed messaging on masks. Inflation. No urgent progress on 1/6 or holding Trump admin accountable.

And now this. At the very least, you have to admit the admin did a poor job controlling/influencing the messaging on the withdrawl and the Trump admin's role.


Not to mention, the party is cracking on reconciliation, nothing on voting rights, homeboy from the SC not retiring, etc.


When are Dems likely to ever have unified control again? 22 seems to be a done deal...its probably going to be worse than expected because of the above. And the GOP is pouncing.

I dunno man. I was pleasantly surprised/hopeful out of the gate, but I'm scared as hell now.

I was naïve enough to think they'd get something on voting, the pandemic, etc.

https://twitter.com/IsaacDovere/status/1427463099225890816

im not gonna cape for him since we all know hes one of the biggest reasons for this mess.

but that statement could have been a lot of other ways...and none of them good lol.

on sabbatical.

does it really matter?

wonder what bin's doing?
http://i.imgur.com/phECCMp.jpg

Just had a baby. In Afghanistan interviewing the Taliban, challenging them on the treatment of women. Went to Iraq, Syria, etc etc. Always embeds in the dangerous places. Its crazy how she is not more well known. She might be one of the last real reporters left in this world.

>Just had a baby. In Afghanistan interviewing the Taliban,
>challenging them on the treatment of women. Went to Iraq,
>Syria, etc etc. Always embeds in the dangerous places. Its
>crazy how she is not more well known. She might be one of the
>last real reporters left in this world.

And it’s brave as fugg

It wouldn't fit their current interest to have America leave completely.

And how their viewed by the World community. it’s a stark contrast from 20
Years ago.

I guess they’re at a cross roads of going full Sharia again or getting your bread up on the global economy.

They need Germany to continue trading with them

all them fools are brave as fuck.

All my shots would be wide angle and shaky af.

>all them fools are brave as fuck.
>
>All my shots would be wide angle and shaky af.

They put themselves in dangerous situations like a military person, without the accolades or acknowledgement of a military person.

imagine the shit they have seen..

whew

Cant imagine the footage they have

https://twitter.com/DataProgress/status/1427978782992912397

and as we transition from the chaos of the first day of evacuation to the more coordinated effort thats already ramping up now...and as people get more and more information about the corruption and cowardice of the afghan forces (backroom deals/bribes)...that gap is only going to increase.

like i said up there...the irrelevance of beltway media is becoming more and more apparent.

most american recognize it was a tough decision to cap off a shitty two decades of disarray. but ultimately the president is fulfilling the will of the american people.

from “support for the way the decision was carried out.”

Why did Biden give himself more time only to botch the effort?

this was especially true because the Afghan military forces collapsed much quicker than anyone thought.

I’m sure the US government thought the Afghan government and military would provide some resistance, enough of a resistance that would have given the US at least a few weeks to evacuate people out before Kabul fell, instead of days.

Trump released 5,000 Taliban fighters last year.

Gave them a timeline for our withdrawal.

If we pushed it back again we prolly stay for another 10 years.

https://twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1428363331916599315

they are going to bleed this shit dry.

the night on some random day.

They've know the Taliban were coming back for a while why wait until the last minute to try to leave? When their president left that was definitely a sign to get out of town.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/u-s-left-afghan-airfield-at-night-didnt-tell-new-commander#:~:text=BAGRAM%2C%20Afghanistan%20(AP)%20%E2%80%94,left%2C%20Afghan%20military%20officials%20said.

but I think the Taliban moving in so fast made us gtfoh before we had an embassy attack that would be his BENGHAZI moment.

IMO its smart of Biden to do this in his first year. By the time 2024 roles around this will be old news.

Dems will get hammered in the 2022 midterms over this tho. Not sure it will matter since most midterms usually go to the party that isnt in the WH

but they are about to clear 100k some time today with almost an entire week left.

and we wont get a single retraction of revision by the media.

this is objectively the single biggest and most complex evacuation in american history and not a single american life was lost.

meanwhile the press is steady covering it like an amateur operation and comparing it to the fall of saigon where 5000 american lives were lost.

everyone is losing their shit like they actually care about Afghanistan refugees.

and IMO Biden is gangster af to end the war 7 months into his term. By the time 2024 roles around people will sound like idiots crying about this evacuation. They will
off like they wanted to continue the occupation.

They probably prefer civilian deaths but would take a military death or two at the hands of the Taliban so they can turn this into Biden’s Benghazi and try to justify using force to go back into Afghanistan.

Ben Sasse was on NPR today talking about Biden’s “derelict if duty” over this and his incompetence for not knowing how many Americans are in Afghanistan and if Biden leaves even one behind he has failed.

Where was the media and GQP uproar when those American soldiers were killed in Africa under Trump?

and acting like Trump didn’t release 5,000 Taliban fighters and negotiate without including the Afghan government.

These people dont give a shit tho..

they were waiting for Biden’s first gaffe so they could go on their Sleepy Joe rants

of Covid in Florida in one day and no one is talking about.

...if he can stifle the war machine that "we've" become as a nation. If you can get the Taliban to bend to the will of other nations he should get a Nobel Prize. Like his Democratic predecessor Pres. Obama.

like, i know the track record is bad, like really bad.

but maybe, just maybe, the Taliban is sick of all the bloodshed too.

i'm sure there are parts i'm missing because i'm NOT well versed on the particulars, and i know there's been accounts of the Taliban "hunting" for certain folks.

but, like, in the long term...and maybe this is just me being an optimist/positive thinker type...maybe the Taliban can actually form a functioning government that the people are willing to live under w/out feeling like they are FORCED to live under it, and that other countries can deal w/ reasonably and vice versa.

i don't know - shit just gotta change man. at some point it has to change.

>like, i know the track record is bad, like really bad.
>
>but maybe, just maybe, the Taliban is sick of all the
>bloodshed too.
>
>i'm sure there are parts i'm missing because i'm NOT well
>versed on the particulars, and i know there's been accounts of
>the Taliban "hunting" for certain folks.
>
>but, like, in the long term...and maybe this is just me being
>an optimist/positive thinker type...maybe the Taliban can
>actually form a functioning government that the people are
>willing to live under w/out feeling like they are FORCED to
>live under it, and that other countries can deal w/ reasonably
>and vice versa.
>
>i don't know - shit just gotta change man. at some point it
>has to change.
>
>

Naw

cuz, otherwise, fuck it all.

them nxggas lied the ENTIRE TIME?!

LOL

Keep that in mind as they talk.

Meanwhile over 200 Americans are dying each a day in Florida from
Covid.

Another 23 Americans in Tennessee died during flooding.

None of this will get any meaningful coverage.

These motherfuckers didnt say a word about Afghanistan for YEARS and now it is all they want to talk about on some "why would he pull out?" and "the Biden forever war." Meanwhile Americans are dying everyday from COVID and they dont go at the Republican Governors forbidding mask mandates with the same fervor.

Now it is all they care about and can cover.

because covid is boring.

the first to get the story out they give the enemy news on us movements and give them ideas for their next attack

Its a bit jarring to see the commentary on the current admin on this.

On Wednesday Reeq and Co were saying this was the most amazing evac ever performed.

They get bombed within 24, 150 civilians and 13 US military dead, and its somehow the medias fault.

Now we are back to bombing them and crickets. Somehow you will blame the GOP or Trump is my guess?

It's crazy how ya'll be criticizing every tiny little move one day and then be capping like shit the next. Where is the consistent energy and criticism?

TBH the last 3 weeks in Afghanistan been a MESS and its LARGELY on Bidens admin and their strategy but have ya'll tell it and it's all good bc Biden "gotta win" right?

it just came to fruition on Biden's watch, it was going to be ugly no matter who was in office.

While I don't *completely* agree with him, he isn't 100% wrong.


Blaming the media for so much at some point starts to sound a lot like "fake news!"


And had the Trump admin told everyone to take off their masks...then the pandemic came roaring back....with no plan to keep kids safe, etc....??

Biden admin? crickets. Had that been Trump? Shiiiitt.

The Biden admin has not done nearly enough on the Pandemic. From spiking the ball early, to mixed messages, to no real plan to win over anti-vax folks, to no plan to vax the world, to school kids, to more economic help, to guaranteed paid time to get the vax, etc, etc. They have straight dropped the ball.


There are a lot of folks who, for some reason, refuse to criticize the Biden admin for even obvious failures.


While there are plenty of Afghanistan takes that lack any nuance, I think the big L of the Biden admin etc was expecting that no one would care and it wouldn't hurt him/Dems politically.

That the GOP wouldn't pounce and that the media wouldn't fall for the shit. Naïve, head in the sand shit.

This is fucking stupid. But it's the take people are taking.

First: Biden never "spiked the ball" on the pandemic.

AND the virus changed, just like he said - and every scientist said - that it could.

And since DAY 1 he's been telling people to get vaccinated, and follow guidelines - guidelines that could and would change.

Also Trump left ZERO plans for vaccine distribution other than to ship it to a state and say "Good luck!"

And the final airlift out of Afghanistan was always going to be fucked. The state department told people to LEAVE in February and they did not. Now it's a rush and guess what - a very tempting target for terrorists. (I know the translators, et. al could not have left in February.)

And just wait until a translator who was relocated to Wisconsin does something like shoplifts. It'll be calls for Biden, Harris, Pelosi, etc. resignation on Fox News for months.

If Afghanistan's government could fall this quickly then there was no real government there at all - that's 40 YEARS of policy failure.


I guess what people want is a "strong leader" who just says "You fuck with us and you die!" and then accomplishes everything perfectly.

Trump was that leader. He accomplished nothing good - but he said the stupid fucking words people wanted.

What people want is:
Pandemic to go away - just like Trump said it would. Guess what - it's NOT doing that for many years.

And we'll leave Afghanistan but be prepared for more causalities on the way out because the Afghan government is gone - and the Taliban don't really want to help us. (Imagine that!)

this idea that Dems are untouchable because GOP is worse is trash

I think announcing unmasking was a bad move

and while the pull out was going to be ugly I think being honest and upfront about the difficulties would’ve helped a little

but we all knew any deaths or chaos in Afghanistan would be blamed on Biden regardless of facts. That is just part of politics.

Nobody said we demand perfection. Just that we should hold a SIMILAR standard for all politicians.

I mean since my last post we got 10 civilians dead in a drone strike in the middle of the capital and ya'll still crickets?


Sorry but is this not the same OKP that had like 150+ POAST on Trumps mushroom dick?? Do better yo

>Nobody said we demand perfection. Just that we should hold a
>SIMILAR standard for all politicians.
>
>I mean since my last post we got 10 civilians dead in a drone
>strike in the middle of the capital and ya'll still crickets?

The country's government collapsed, they evacuated 100k+ people and now an event occurs that killed a dozen marines (and 170 civilians) are dead and you're saying "Biden SHOULD HAVE STOPPED THIS."

I'd call that asking for perfection.

20 YEARS.
Military presence left months ago.
The country's government collapsed completely in WEEKS.
Extremist are the new government.
Even more extreme extremists see a chance to destabilized the US again and all it costa is some explosives and letting your friend blow himself up.

And the media is filled with literally THOUSANDS of pieces saying "Biden fucked up." He is getting the feedback, here we gotta talk about Busta.

This is why no one else tried to leave - because unless it goes PERFECT then it's a huge fuckup - no matter what the circumstance is.

Wait until the refugees arrive here - they are going to say that's a fuckup.
Also the refugees who could not get out and are killed by extremists - that'll be another fuck up.


Unless you have a plan to execute this operation better then you're just farting in the wind and blaming Biden for the air smelling bad.

>Sorry but is this not the same OKP that had like 150+ POAST on
>Trumps mushroom dick?? Do better yo

And FUCK YOU. That wasn't me. You've proven you ain't perfect.

>And FUCK YOU. That wasn't me. You've proven you ain't
>perfect.
>


Word. Have a great day

people are looking for a perfect solution to an imperfect problem that can NEVER have a perfect solution...this shit gonna always be messy til it ain't.

i just hope the "ain't" comes sooner than later.

You aren't being much better with this response than Bernie Bros who go hard for their boy no matter what.

No one in here is expecting perfection. Certainly not me.

BUT

Folks need to stop with this agenda give my side whatever pass is necessary to win an argument shit.


Joe started strong. He's fucking up. And his polling shows it.

Its that simple.



>This is fucking stupid. But it's the take people are taking.

literally no one is saying dems need to be perfect. Stop

>
>First: Biden never "spiked the ball" on the pandemic.

Yes he absolutely did. As did many others.

The vaccine roll out was a huge initial success.


As always, there were vax hesitant people. The Biden admin plan?

"Tell them they can take off their masks when they get vaxxed!!"

As if someone who was too much of an asshole to get vaxxed AND too much of an asshole to see the merit in masks....suddently was going to be honest about being vaxxed.

The admin also put local govts and businesses in an impossible position in most areas to be more strict than the feds...which of course didnt work and they had to cave.

All while new variants were popping up and the data WAS NOT CLEAR if vaxxed folks could still spread the virus.



>
>AND the virus changed, just like he said - and every scientist
>said - that it could.

Huh? The variants were already popping up. Thats the fucking point. His team wanted to hang that mission accomplished banner so badly- and were dumb enough to think that shit would convince people to get vaxxed.

And now....the pandemic is fucking raging again and kids are at risk.

Is it his fault? No.

But he fucked up and clearly could have done a better job.


Admitting this does not make you a bro or Maga. Its just not having a pro-dem agenda that keeps you from keepting it a buck.

>
>And since DAY 1 he's been telling people to get vaccinated,
>and follow guidelines - guidelines that could and would
>change.

K. Where did I say he didn't?
>
>Also Trump left ZERO plans for vaccine distribution other than
>to ship it to a state and say "Good luck!"

For sure. I'm ecstatic Biden beat Trump. And the initial roll out was a success.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the mistakes aftewards.

>
>And the final airlift out of Afghanistan was always going to
>be fucked. The state department told people to LEAVE in
>February and they did not. Now it's a rush and guess what - a
>very tempting target for terrorists. (I know the translators,
>et. al could not have left in February.)

My major point on the Afghanistan thing was how naive the admin and most passionate supporters were (including around here) that "everyone agrees with Joe!" and it wouldn't hurt him.

And/or that any fall out was fake news....errr... I mean the media's fault.


His poll numbers look rough. Underwater. It started with Afghanistan.


I do disagree with you that those first few days could not have gone better though. They absolutely could have gone better. The largest military in the world didn't have a better evac plan? Cmon.

He got bad advice.


>
>And just wait until a translator who was relocated to
>Wisconsin does something like shoplifts. It'll be calls for
>Biden, Harris, Pelosi, etc. resignation on Fox News for
>months.
>

For sure. What argument are you making here? They will find a way to do that anyway.

Biden and any Dem or any human with a soul should not give 2 fucks what Fox says.

>If Afghanistan's government could fall this quickly then there
>was no real government there at all - that's 40 YEARS of
>policy failure.

I never said otherwise.

>
>
>I guess what people want is a "strong leader" who just says
>"You fuck with us and you die!" and then accomplishes
>everything perfectly.

Uh, no on the first for sure.

And again, no one expects perfection.


Why can't we talk about mistakes that he makes though?

Especially ones that lead to people dying and putting people at risk?

why is that so difficult and seemingly triggering?

>
>Trump was that leader. He accomplished nothing good - but he
>said the stupid fucking words people wanted.

Again, why are you making this argument? No one in here is advocating for Trump. At all.

>
>What people want is:
>Pandemic to go away - just like Trump said it would. Guess
>what - it's NOT doing that for many years.


Uh, no. You keep wanting this to be Trump v Biden because thats how you win.


No, I want the Biden admin (and Dems in congress) to take the pandemic more seriously.

Not saying they haven't taken it seriously, but I would like more.

Off the top that would include- more cautious messaging, whatever can legally be done to incentivize vaccines here at home, more federal guidance on school openings, a plan to vaccinate the world to stop future variants, more ongoing economic relief for those that need it, more federal requirements for vax, etc.

That isn't saying I want him to be perfect or that I want (lol lol) Trump.



And the admin absolutely made a huuge mistake in trying to spike the ball early.

So I think I'm allowed to want specific actions out of politicians, and then criticize their mistakes.

>
>And we'll leave Afghanistan but be prepared for more
>causalities on the way out because the Afghan government is
>gone - and the Taliban don't really want to help us. (Imagine
>that!)
>

Uh, ok.


What's funny about all of this, is that a lot these mistakes are also political blunders.

Had Afghanistan withdrawal gone the first few days like it did the days after, he does much better and leaves less room for criticism. In fact, he could be a fucking hero.

Had the admin put together a better plan for those evacuating, he is also a hero to many (cuz again, fuck Fox news).


Had the admin been a steady hand on the pandemic, managed expectations better, etc....he could be anywhere between hero and a guy who inherited a terrible pandemic/situation.


And now that those blunders have occurred, getting mad at people pointing them out and blaming the media sounds....Trump like. And Bro like.

And if the Dem party is taking this path, then we are truly fucked. Gotta learn from the mistakes.



But really my point in all this was dude above's point- why is it so hard to just admit when Dems fuck up these days? Why?

We haven't even touched on what happened this week. What's the plan...to fundraise?

I am beyond thankful Biden won. He has been a much better candidate and prez than I thought.


But he is having a rough few months, man.

1)You believe there's a way to get more people vaccinated than the approach Biden took - which was to say once vaccinated you can do things that you can't do when you're not.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Disagree? State another approach that would have worked better. Or could work better now. (I'm waiting.)

2)You wanted us to escalate the war in Afghanistan to end it.
That's some fancy logic bro.

3)You think "The largest military in the world didn't have a better evac plan?."

Again, state a backup plan but without escalating/surging troops?
It could include:
Have a strong Afghani government.
Win the hearts and minds of ISIS?

Fantasy.

4)You saying that anyone that does not demand perfection (and in hindsight) is 1000% Joe Stan. Hell, even Biden's saying he wanted it to go better and it didn't. He's saying that on Covid too.

That's not true. I'll ask you, in May, where was your plan to get out?? Didn't have one? Weird. You seem super passionate about this now.


You are displaying is stupid "conventional wisdom" and poll watching.

Come up with better plans and then share them here BEFORE you start using hindsight.

Coming next: Your policy proposal to learn to play the flute well:
A)Blow in one end
2)Move your fingers up and down on the other end.

Viola - you know how to play the flute!!!

There may have been "better ways" to do things - but FUCK IF I KNOW THEM.

Trump on healthcare: ‘Nobody knew health care could be so complicated’

In a mini episode interviewing those involved with the evacuation of Afghanistan. The girl said "i didn't want to meet Biden. For him to kneel for the flag and then later say he cares about dead Marines. I have no respect for him and went to a separate room." AND ABC NEWS DID NOTHING TO CORRECT THIS LIE OR FACT CHECK SOMETHING THEY LITERALLY DECIDED TO AIR. THEY DID NOTHING TO SAY THE SISTER WAS ABSOLUTELY DEAD WRONG ABUT BIDEN EVER KNEELING. I cant with the media these days.

And has been awful about this.