Talked to our security guard at work today - he's a nice guy - early 40's , black.

He wants to know "Name 5 things that Trump did that are illegal?"

And he told me "Joe Biden *admitted* to being guilt of sexual harassment."

I went HAM on him (Impeachment is political, doesn't have to be a CRIME - and that Trump claims to be immune from investigation, Trump has 19 women who've publicly accused him of rape, pressuring another country to help get dirt on an opponent is rigging the next election, Biden admitted to touching a woman's shoulders and apologized that he'd done something that made her uncomfortable not GUILTY of being a SEXUAL HARASSER, etc) - but he was unconvinced.

Also Trump PRE-ELECTION bothered him with the racial stuff, but since he's bee president it's been a lot better.

Look, I don't think he's a Trump guy but he's definitely not some racist goober.

He is an ex-cop, ex military, current security guard.

So if you think Trump is down and out - you're wrong. (I'm depressed now.)

8 times he farted in public

3 albums he doesnt like that are undisputedly great

"Oh shit, I can only name 4! I guess he stays" ?!?

Obstructing Justice
Profiting from the Presidency
Soliciting Foreign Interference in US Elections
Violating Immigrants' Right to Due Process
Violating Campaign Finance Laws

... who's a friend of a friend I went to school with, unabashed republican, gun-owning, freak of a human who has never explicitly stated his Individual 1 support but clearly supports him ... tell me yesterday via an e-mail chain we're on together, that "socialism can eat a dick" but had no response to my response in which I linked several articles related to Nunes' criminal activity/corruption/conflicts of interest.

I truly don't understand how a human brain that can operate like that: being empathetic and kind to others can "eat a dick" but blatant, top-to-bottom corruption at the highest levels of government - what's the big deal ?!?

Fucking weirdos.

waste all the time you want sending the articles or trying to reach them using logic, you will only upset yourself

they honestly do not get it

but i spent years talking to them and listening to conservative radio in an effort to understand the conservative mind

Most people don't associate socialism with empathy, as much as I think we all agree they logically should. At best, they associate it with gulags. At worst, they associate it with "other people" getting things that they think they're personally entitled to.

And the very idea that empathy in general is a good thing --- it's something we've all heard and like to think we agree on. But deep down it's something we're conditioned by evolution to value only within our own self-imposed groups. Letting starving immigrants into the country might take jobs away from "hard-working Americans," and all that.

conservatives are still winning the war of defining socialism, which is easy because outside of maybe Bernie and AOC, dems run from that word like its cooties

Dems/progressives are *always* backpedaling, hence why progress is always snail paced.

.. in some ways I'm glad they suck at playing it.

But obviously it's frustrating at the same time.

its also a big reason our culture continues to lose.

*sighs*…...are defining, re-defining, re-shaping, throwing stones, hiding hands....it's crazy.

I do like that they can't F* with the facts, though.

but hey, at least ‘the facts’ give you that warm tingly feeling inside right?

Yeah government corruption is a really good reason to be anti-socialist.

since 2016 I will visit the subreddits for ask trump supporters and ask the donald because I keep waiting for some cracks to form on the base.

each big negative moment is ALWAYS countered with a neat explanation.


Even for the supporters that HATE some of the things hes done, they are still ride or die for him.


hot take:

as long as...

the sky isnt falling
bombs arent over our heads
things still cost a dollar on the dollar menu
HBO still makes good TV
gas is below 5 dollars a gallon
the lights are on
civil war is an abstract concept
they still spelling names on pay checks correctly
the white man is still the white man
the idea that we're all just temporarily embarrassed billions is not broken
black friday happens
401k/pensions are not taking massive loses
the economy is moving



people are going to kinda not give a fuck and keep it pushing.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

From a practical day to day standpoint, ain't much changed from Jan 2017 to now. Yeah you have the everyday foolishness, and I think that might irk some people and they may be tired of it all.
But overall, the sky hasn't fallen like people were saying it would.

And that's why support for him hasn't really changed either. If they voted for him before, why would they change now? If anything, I can picture him gaining more support this time around since its been shown that he won't bring the whole thing crumbling down.

This impeachment stuff doesn't matter one bit for his overall support because, again, how does it affect people's everyday life. Are people going to lose their jobs because some Ukraine stuff? Are we about to send people to war because of it?

The one thing that Trump's future hinges on is the economy. Let that start slipping, then people will have less excuses for his foolishness.

The Ukraine stuff can be easily ignored. It's hard to explain. It's hard to see the impact of it.
But let 20 people you know get laid off because of something that can be attributed to Trump, shiiiitttt.

Scary thing is...he might be able to run the clock out on the economy. It looks to be slowing, but not to the degree to cause huge impacts prior to November.

his bad behavior or at a minimum shrug it off. unless he point blank says these poor white idiots (and confused negros) are dumb as fuck for supporting me, its pretty much trump is just trumping...nothing to see here

a lot of people were making noise about it but the general public didnt understand how serious it was. now we are seeing consequences of it but if their every day life is "okay" then they go with the flow.

republican supporters wont be moved on impeachment.

dems in general support impeachment but will consider potential downfalls to it and a few might not support it because of this fear.

there are some people that are waiting to see more to decide where they lie on this. if theyre paying attention at all i dont see how they dont support impeachment anymore.

the rest fall into what is being described, people who cant be bothered by it and will complain downline the line when they start seeing the consequences.

i think we all need to call our representatives and let them know where we stand on this. it wont make a difference to some but if we arent voicing it directly then what are we doing to change their minds?

I've come around to the fact that impeachment is something Democrats HAVE to do. Because by now the illegality is just too clear and profound to ignore, even though we're powerless to stop it.

But the impeachment process is not set up in such a way that it can remove a president supported by the base of a majority of senators. And that base's opinion isn't changing. Anyone who thinks people will come around isn't being honest about human nature or the current political dynamics.

And it will cost us electorally. There have already been anti-impeachment protestors at Democratic town halls, and while plenty of people think Trump broke the law, even the ones who want him removed are still listing impeachment as a low priority. We've set ourselves up for GOP challengers to run against a House that supposedly isn't acting on "the important issues." This is exactly how it went for Republicans in '98, in a history that a lot of progressives insist on revising.

And when Trump is "acquitted," he's gonna milk the everloving fuck out of it. We've already seen this with the Russia investigation. Nobody seriously denies the crimes outlined in the Mueller report. But Trump supporters have turned it into a vindication and Democrats fret over how it was all a sad waste of time.

They're wondering why their wages are stagnated and why their health care premiums are making them decide between Christmas or going to see that specialist that triggers a multi-hundred dollar co-pay office visit.

Trump is a criminal and a cancer. That's *been* known. Have your pick of impeachable offenses - they're there, from the jump. Launching impeachment at year 1? Cool. Doing it in year 3 of his term with elections on the horizon - *knowing* damn well that nothing will come out of this proceeding (because the GOP-led Senate won't magically be inspired by the findings) except for benign procedural formality? Political malpractice.

Data is already showing that Impeachment is helping drum up Trump's base and it's not moving the needle at all with Independents. If anything, it's turning Independents and non-partisans off.


-->

>Data is already showing that Impeachment is helping drum up
>Trump's base and it's not moving the needle at all with
>Independents. If anything, it's turning Independents and
>non-partisans off.

2019 elections have consistently shown that dem turnout is up over lackluster repub turnout (especially in rural areas) and normally solid red suburbs (dems/indies/crossover repubs) that dems havent won in decades or ever are turning blue.

https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/status/1196539297551269891
https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1195924841913896960
https://twitter.com/riseandresistny/status/1192178235024584711

etc etc etc.

mind you...trump campaigned heavy in ky and la and off-year election turnout has a history of being *more* favorable to republicans (whiter, older, more rural) than the prez general will be.

this idea that impeachment is rallying trumps base or hurting democrats...i have no idea where people are getting it from. because actual election results (the only data that really matters) have shown the exact opposite.

i mean...dude has ~20% higher support for impeachment than any recent president before him other than nixon (and he isnt too far off nixons highest number).
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1199515763964436480

you dont think those numbers (and the people who are represented by those numbers) are moving the needle?

>>Data is already showing that Impeachment is helping drum up
>>Trump's base and it's not moving the needle at all with
>>Independents. If anything, it's turning Independents and
>>non-partisans off.
>
>2019 elections have consistently shown that dem turnout is up
>over lackluster repub turnout (especially in rural areas) and
>normally solid red suburbs (dems/indies/crossover repubs) that
>dems havent won in decades or ever are turning blue.
>
>https://twitter.com/ashtonpittman/status/1196539297551269891
>https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/1195924841913896960
>https://twitter.com/riseandresistny/status/1192178235024584711
>
>etc etc etc.
>
>mind you...trump campaigned heavy in ky and la and off-year
>election turnout has a history of being *more* favorable to
>republicans (whiter, older, more rural) than the prez general
>will be.
>
>this idea that impeachment is rallying trumps base or hurting
>democrats...i have no idea where people are getting it from.
>because actual election results (the only data that really
>matters) have shown the exact opposite.
>
>i mean...dude has ~20% higher support for impeachment than any
>recent president before him other than nixon (and he isnt too
>far off nixons highest number).
>https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1199515763964436480
>
>you dont think those numbers (and the people who are
>represented by those numbers) are moving the needle?
>

^^^^^^ yep

From a macro level we may not be seeing it, but we didn't see Individual 1 winning on a macro level in 2016 either. Everything was happening on the ground.

The same may be happening here, at least as it relates to 2020 (not necessarily impeachment).

dems got hammered there. and those apathy/turnout woes followed into the prez election.

2018/2019 has been a nightmare for trump/gop and getting worse (especially the acceleration in the suburbs).

election results (on a macro level) dont come out of nowhere. theyre results of stable shifts/trends.

any other candidate in trumps shoes...with the election results and polling numbers during his term...would be getting their last rites read to them by the political press.

im actually happy that the media (and a lot of dems frankly) think trump has a great shot at winning in 2020 instead of viewing him as the weakest incumbent since carter. complacency kills while fear/anger motivate.

>i mean...dude has ~20% higher support for impeachment than any
>recent president before him other than nixon (and he isnt too
>far off nixons highest number).
>https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1199515763964436480
>
>you dont think those numbers (and the people who are
>represented by those numbers) are moving the needle?

We'll see. Impeachment *should* move the needle - particularly in this case where there are so many diff. impeachable offenses under Trump. One could also argue that the timing of it also isn't so bad given that the Democratic Primary still has a lot of sorting out to do.

That said, essentially all of the top Dem candidates have been consistently topping Trump in prospective head-to-head match-ups - some with significant margins. I think it's a mistake to focus too tightly on impeachment. Dems have the aspirational, logical, and compassionate message - it's a powerful and affirmative rebuke of Trump's failed presidency. I think the more that is the focus, the better is it for Dems in the ballot box.
-->

and got endless circulation among gop talking points to craft a narrative that has failed to hold up. im not sure if thats where you got your data from.

>If anything, it's turning Independents and
>non-partisans off.

as usual...its always best to look at the average/aggregate. support for impeachment is right there at the same peak it was in oct. it isnt swinging back against dems.

https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1199335495140040704

>and got endless circulation among gop talking points to craft
>a narrative that has failed to hold up. im not sure if thats
>where you got your data from.
>
>>If anything, it's turning Independents and
>>non-partisans off.
>
>as usual...its always best to look at the average/aggregate.
>support for impeachment is right there at the same peak it was
>in oct. it isnt swinging back against dems.
>
>https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1199335495140040704


Where is Vex getting these numbers and why does he leave the links out ?

https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13355672&mesg_id=13355672&listing_type=search#13357158

emerson notoriously had a national poll just a while ago that had andrew yang in 4th place with 10% of the vote lol (he has averaged under 3% the entire primary). they seem to be making a name for themselves. and not in a good way.

>https://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13355672&mesg_id=13355672&listing_type=search#13357158
>
>emerson notoriously had a national poll just a while ago that
>had andrew yang in 4th place with 10% of the vote lol (he has
>averaged under 3% the entire primary). they seem to be making
>a name for themselves. and not in a good way.

Damn they trying to get that Rasmussen spot.

>and got endless circulation among gop talking points to craft
>a narrative that has failed to hold up. im not sure if thats
>where you got your data from.

Morning Consult, Emerson, Politico etc..The Hill reported on it.

>as usual...its always best to look at the average/aggregate.
>support for impeachment is right there at the same peak it was
>in oct. it isnt swinging back against dems.
>
>https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/1199335495140040704

Good. BTW: This is an instance where I hope I'm wrong. I'd love for impeachment to turn out to be appetizing to swing-voters - and would love for the Senate to validate impeachment and effectively remove Trump from office.

I would - however - remain cautious about how palatable impeachment will be to the aggregate general electorate.

>I would - however - remain cautious about how palatable
>impeachment will be to the aggregate general electorate.

>

Its just sad. They got these scholars up here breaking it down and explaining the constitution to people in clear terms.

But Republicans and Trump supporters are going to willfully ignore the facts, cutting off their noses to spite their face. Pathetic. Embarassing.

Trump is just one asshole. Its really the people that continue to defend and support him that are the stain on this country.

gop about to do their 45 mins questioning

I know what's coming so I couldn't put myself through the frustration of listening to their lies and misdirections. Have too much work to do.

>Its just sad. They got these scholars up here breaking it
>down and explaining the constitution to people in clear terms.
>
>
>But Republicans and Trump supporters are going to willfully
>ignore the facts, cutting off their noses to spite their face.
>Pathetic. Embarassing.
>
>Trump is just one asshole. Its really the people that continue
>to defend and support him that are the stain on this country.

Kompromat got these fools forgetting everything and like you touched on, these poor scholars, professors, legal experts, intelligence officials, actual America-loving lawmakers, are up there straight PLEADING for us to save the republic and the fascists are just continuing their charade to save themselves.

It's so pathetic.

These fools don’t trust colleges

... I don't think we'd have seen folks Lindsay Graham'ing Nixon if the evidence of misconduct/corruption/impeachable offenses were this endless and dangerous.

I may be wrong.

Politics is like sports... most folks always see the other team fouling or committing penalties yet cry like a baby when it’s called on their team

I really wonder if republicans don’t have a conscious.

Ken Starr was on the other day talking about “we have to respect the president, I’m so appalled..”

Really?

a McConaughey "now imagine she's white" moment from Schiff to change the public opinion lol

I never in my life thought I'd here a Republican say that

“This just keeps getting more amazing, I think we just put into the jury pool the Founding Fathers and said 'what would they think,' I don't think we have any idea what they would think, in all due respect, with this,”

So now y'all don't know what the founding fathers think? Fucking clowns

for them to care
All the palace intrigue, fake Sorkin drama? Completely irrelevant to most people.

Unfortunately repugs/fascists aren't objective at all so "facts" don't matter. To them it's all about narrative and theatrics.

republican talking points like word for word.

especially the "blackity blackest"

>mediocre at a solid case

I think they've done a great job of building a strong, fact-based case laying everything out.

We can argue the strategy for sure. But any weakness in the case is explained by the obstruction of justice/congress issues which, of course, lay out another article of impeachment.

So considering what they have I think they've done a tremendous job, brought out great witnesses, and put together a strong case that's near-airtight if not for the obstruction-caused lack of information to close the loopholes.

i was skeptical at first.

but its pretty amazing what theyve been able to bring to the surface despite full on obstruction of justice.

people dont even question whether trump is guilty (because the facts overwhelmingly point that way). they just question whether it clears the bar for impeachment.

70% of americans believe trump pressing ukraine was wrong.
https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1196605523749154816

thats not exactly a failure at 'making their case'.

if dems got access to the relevant communications (call logs, emails, etc) then it would be even higher...which is pretty remarkable when you think about it.

right now support for impeachment itself is around 50% in most reputable polls. support for nixons impeachment was only in the low 50s...in a less partisan environment without a prevalent right wing media echo chamber...*after* nixon was caught on tape literally saying 'i did it'.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/70-americans-trumps-actions-tied-ukraine-wrong-poll/story?id=67088534

so those are the people who have a genuine interest in staying informed about the state of our country. and dems have clearly done a good job persuading *them*.

but dems cant make everyone else care about the collapse of our democracy and the importance of holding an authoritarian accountable. thats the fault of a largely ignorant/apathetic populace and one of the main reasons we are in this position in the first place.

>https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/70-americans-trumps-actions-tied-ukraine-wrong-poll/story?id=67088534
>
>so those are the people who have a genuine interest in staying
>informed about the state of our country. and dems have
>clearly done a good job persuading *them*.

... ctually care to be informed. It's sad that an entire major American political party is anti-intellectual but I guess that's the only way they can continue to be racist and bigoted without pushback. Keep the people stupid.


>but dems cant make everyone else care about the collapse of
>our democracy and the importance of holding an authoritarian
>accountable. thats the fault of a largely ignorant/apathetic
>populace and one of the main reasons we are in this position
>in the first place.

Correct. My wife's uncle said, while the initial hearings were taking place, "I'm not even gonna watch that crap" then went on pontificating about how "they" have been after Individual 1 since day one.

Not that it did any good because, again, if you're not willing to be informed then what's the point - but I did try to explain that maybe, MAYBE ... "they" have been after him because, bear with me here, he's fucking endlessly criminal, corrupt, and dangerous and *should* be under constant scrutiny. I know it sounds crazy.

>i was skeptical at first.
>but its pretty amazing what theyve been able to bring to the
>surface despite full on obstruction of justice.

I was skeptical, too. It's all documented here. I thought Dems would flub the shit out of this. And while I'm still of the belief that he'd never be removed from office, I think they've done an exceptional job at laying out this case considering the roadblocks.


>people dont even question whether trump is guilty (because the
>facts overwhelmingly point that way). they just question
>whether it clears the bar for impeachment.

Trump doesn't even question whether he's guilty. I mean he outright admitted it then solicited further campaign help. The fact that some people are shrugging it off is what's confounding. Madison literally wrote the rule for this exact reason.


>70% of americans believe trump pressing ukraine was wrong.
>https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1196605523749154816
>
>thats not exactly a failure at 'making their case'.
>
>if dems got access to the relevant communications (call logs,
>emails, etc) then it would be even higher...which is pretty
>remarkable when you think about it.
>
>right now support for impeachment itself is around 50% in most
>reputable polls. support for nixons impeachment was only in
>the low 50s...in a less partisan environment without a
>prevalent right wing media echo chamber...*after* nixon was
>caught on tape literally saying 'i did it'.

Trump did that too lol.

About the Ukraine/Biden shit.
Just like the Russian scare shit.
There's massive labor/economic protests happening nationwide...a housing crisis...etc.
Dumbass palace intrigue ain't gonna move the needle in the general populace.
Especially this close to an election

its not the dems job to make grown ass people care about their own country. thats a really infantile outlook and treats people like mental dependents incapable of any proactive engagement.

the reason why we even have the issues you listed is because of decades (at least) of people already not caring about shit that affects them.

are you gonna say dems shouldnt address judges and the supreme court because people only care about their wages? lol. where do you think these laws are decided? all this shit is connected.

people shouldnt care about a president/party trampling on democracy (and erasing the political voice of millions of people) because housing costs too much? how do you think housing gets fixed?

should dems ignore voter suppression because people in the rust belt are more concerned about manufacturing layoffs and farm bankruptcies?

how do you even expect to address political issues when you dont care about politics? lol.

shit is dumb as hell and doesnt make any logical sense to anyone that applies some actual thought to it.

you do realize the purpose of having a democracy and even voting at all right? then i assume you understand the importance of protecting that democracy and that ability to vote.

the countries where people have the most productive political outcomes and enjoy the highest quality of life are generally the countries where citizens are most informed and participate in democracy the most. like 70% turnout rates.

we are lucky to crack 50% over here. and thats just registered voters. not eligible-to-register voters. and we ended up exactly where we are supposed to be when you have people who willingly sit out the process that directly accounts for addressing the issues you deem priorities.

the solution to that is not waiting around for a party to devise the perfect plan to make us care. if youre still waiting to care then you already lost.

but hey who cares if we become a dictatorship or one party fascist oligarchy if dems are focusing on something other than my paycheck?! lol.

I was really about to write basically what you did and then was like 'let me work first'

now I don't have to!

People only think things are all connected on 'The Wire'

dude called a president fixing an election some meaningless 'palace intrigue' then proceeded to say we have more important things to look at in an election year lol.

who are like 'this will hurt election chances'

So don't impeach because the Senate isn't gonna convict which means we have a president that is above the law and a Senate that will aid and abet anything he does no matter how many laws he violates.

Ok bet, then you can give up any hope of a free and fair election so the election chances don't matter. This whole thing is about him violating the law to influence the election. Y'all want to let that slide so that we can beat him by....an election? Ok, player.

A man who is going to prison for the rest of his life if he loses? Most of his team who isn't ALREADY in jail is going to jail should he lose? And you don't think he will do any and everything to stay in power? Especially emboldened by a lack of conviction much less by the Dems pursuing impeachment?

Oh and the Republicans aren't winning shit again unless they fucking cheat. That's why they've gone so hard. Why at every turn they've gerrymandered, cheated, fought tooth-and-nail to take the right to vote from everyone that isn't white. They know that this is last ditch effort and if they don't get their way it's a fucking wrap for a minute. White supremacy rule in this country is at stake and they are willing to sell everything out to keep power.

Y'all think the last couple years have been real? They will make this shit look like a cake walk and I can tell by how a lot of y'all post that they will be the first to feel the effects.

Let this cracker continue unabated and watch what happens. Let him get another Supreme Court judge. Let him keep installing life-long appointments. Let him GET AWAY WITH HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS and watch what happens.

'Oh it doesn't affect me as long as my checks cash"...If you're a person whose primary concern is there check coming on time you're already fucked (and that includes me too). You just don't know it yet.

Niggas need to start looking alive.

....

Only that it's the reality that we have to contend with.

A lot of conservatives feel better when they say global warming is a hoax. And a lot of progressives feel better when they pretend the House has the power to "hold this President to account." Neither claim is true.

Wouldn't put that evil on you.

This is the test where we see if Trump is in fact above the law, and while I don't have high hopes either, I still have some hope precisely because of this process.

If not he is, an election the election won't be fair and it won't really matter no matter who the Democrats put forward.

Either this shit breaks here or it doesn't break.

"Thanks for saving me 20 minutes, reeq" haha.

If you don’t think it’s the Dems job to make a case for the public... smh.

What you think the GOP is doing? They speak DIRECTLY to their base.

>RE: Y’all like to look good losing.

We're literally saying the opposite of this. Read again.


>If you don’t think it’s the Dems job to make a case for
>the public... smh.

We're literally saying the opposite of this. Read again.

y'all act like they haven't invested BILLIONS of dollars and 30 years to get to a point where they can tell people literally anything and they will believe them. They have waged a protracted war on science, on education and on journalism. Really they've waged a protracted war on critical thought.

You don't have to make a case when you teach people no matter what you are always right and anyone else is always wrong. Then you can feed people bullshit and they'll not only eat it, they'll ask for more.

So please stop with the 'well they just have to make the case' the Republicans don't have a case but they've worked REALLY hard for a really long time so they don't even have to make one.


The Democrats do, and making cases is hard. Thinking is hard. Democracy is hard. And all of it takes time and effort. But if you don't allow for that you're not a democratic society anyway. That's the risk.

(That's why baseline a third of people want authoritarianism. They want to be told what to think and they want to be relieved of that burden no matter the cost to themselves but particularly to others)

Most of all, the very systems in place to combat this shit y'all can't be bothered to understand and think are 'too hard to understand,' 'too boring' or 'wypipo palace intrigue that doesn't affect me'.

>RE: and y'all act like the right-wing propaganda complex
>y'all act like they haven't invested BILLIONS of dollars and
>30 years to get to a point where they can tell people
>literally anything and they will believe them. They have waged
>a protracted war on science, on education and on journalism.
>Really they've waged a protracted war on critical thought.
>
>You don't have to make a case when you teach people no matter
>what you are always right and anyone else is always wrong.
>Then you can feed people bullshit and they'll not only eat it,
>they'll ask for more.
>
>So please stop with the 'well they just have to make the case'
>the Republicans don't have a case but they've worked REALLY
>hard for a really long time so they don't even have to make
>one.
>
>
>The Democrats do, and making cases is hard. Thinking is hard.
>Democracy is hard. And all of it takes time and effort. But if
>you don't allow for that you're not a democratic society
>anyway. That's the risk.
>
>(That's why baseline a third of people want authoritarianism.
>They want to be told what to think and they want to be
>relieved of that burden no matter the cost to themselves but
>particularly to others)
>
>Most of all, the very systems in place to combat this shit
>y'all can't be bothered to understand and think are 'too hard
>to understand,' 'too boring' or 'wypipo palace intrigue that
>doesn't affect me'.

The SNL skit of John Kerry is a good example. Dude would make great points during the debate and win but then he was keep fucking talking for 5 minutes and you would forget his point

Then dude gets on stage when Obama was the nominee and spit hot fire... the type of fire that woulda won the election if he used that same delivery.

You have to keep tailoring your message to the voters you have, not the voters you wish America had.

We are a simple nation... lol. Keep that shit simple or keep wondering why the idiots keep winning.

jesus.

Basically, they just echo repug talking points and soundbytes and mischaracterize things you say.

bruh, you can't even understand an HBO series and then want to apply your reductionist ass views to a America?

You know very little about a whole lot and think because you're simple everything else is.

Log off and read a fucking book.

we can change our user names now???????

but no you can't change usernames.

make people care about this country if you are a Dem.

Campaigning is making your case/drumming up support.
All that Sorkin-ass shit above is why the Dems stay losing.

>RE:Nah, they're terrible making a case why folks should care
>About the Ukraine/Biden shit.
>Just like the Russian scare shit.
>There's massive labor/economic protests happening nationwide...a housing crisis...etc.
>Dumbass palace intrigue ain't gonna move the needle in the general populace.
>Especially this close to an election

The dems are literally laying out indisputable facts via public hearings one by one, trotting out excellent witnesses who are all saying, in unison, out loud, "this man is bribing a foreign nation for personal gain and has obstructed justice to avoid paying for his blatant crimes"

They've gone on every media platform multiple times and exposed these high crimes and misdemeanors methodically for several weeks (which was my initial complaint about the handling of this whole thing, that they weren't being loud enough about it).

I'm not really sure what else you want them to do to "make people care," ... waterboard independents til they pledge that they care about their country ? Repugs are throwing hissy fits, lying, and distracting from the truth, *without even really ever denying that the president has committed these crimes*, and people are buying it. Unfortunately, it's difficult to combat a major political party that has zero integrity or shame.

And to your last point re: other issues, they're doing all this WHILE addressing hundreds of other issues via passing FOUR HUNDRED House bills which are being stalled in the Senate by Moscow Mitch because repugs ain't shit.

And your problem is with the democrats ?!?

Then it's their responsibility to convince the populace to agree with them.
If they can't/don't, they're shit at their jobs, or the case needs to be stronger.

Whining about the Republicans spending the past 30 years building up a bullet proof political apparatus that defines & supports their directives is much less effective than doing the same fucking thing for your party.

"Trust us, we know better" is a shit starting point for a political organization.

I'm def not gonna go in any deeper arguing that dems are great at messaging. From the beginning my main point was just that they've done a better job with the impeachment process than I originally thought they would.

But your point is well taken, that if they're not convincing the folks they need to convince then they're definitely *not* doing their jobs effectively. Can't argue that.

But I think the polling figures show that they have moved the needle, to the extent that they're probably realistically able considering the electorate. But I'd have to look back.


>Then it's their responsibility to convince the populace to
>agree with them.
>If they can't/don't, they're shit at their jobs, or the case
>needs to be stronger.
>
>Whining about the Republicans spending the past 30 years
>building up a bullet proof political apparatus that defines &
>supports their directives is much less effective than doing
>the same fucking thing for your party.
>
>"Trust us, we know better" is a shit starting point for a
>political organization.

impeaching trump could be HELLA useful to the party long term (the modern grassroots Right partially came outta the Clinton impeachment), but the way the Dems are playing it seem wrong headed as hell. The contempt for people who don't care is game goofy. MAKE them care, and build the infrastructure to keep them in your funnel.

Instead, they're congratulating themselves on cable news.

It doesn't seem to be a part of any long-term strategy to do anything other than say "we impeached Trump in the House".

>RE: honestly, I'm way left of the dem party, but I can see how

Me too, for the record. Hella, unapologetically left of the party and the country. But in these discussions I try to be as objective and realistic as possible, sometimes to the detriment of my own arguments admittedly haha.


>impeaching trump could be HELLA useful to the party long term
>(the modern grassroots Right partially came outta the Clinton
>impeachment), but the way the Dems are playing it seem wrong
>headed as hell. The contempt for people who don't care is game
>goofy. MAKE them care, and build the infrastructure to keep
>them in your funnel.

Can you give me examples of them showing contempt for the people who don't care ? Honest request - because that's not the way I've been seeing it *at all*. I think they've been doing their best to lay out the facts without coming off as hella partisan, and that's what I've been most impressed by.

I'm not necessarily arguing that they've done *enough* to make the ambivalent people care. In this instance I'm just arguing against your claim that Schiff, Pelosi, etc. have actual *contempt* for people who are independent/apolitical/indifferent about the Ukraine stuff. I don't see it that way at all but certainly could be missing some signs.


>Instead, they're congratulating themselves on cable news.

Do you have examples of this, too ? Cause I'm not seeing this either, haha. Again, serious request - not trying to be difficult or snarky.


>It doesn't seem to be a part of any long-term strategy to do
>anything other than say "we impeached Trump in the House".

*this* I can maybe agree with. And that's mostly because they took so damn long to actually open up an inquiry. Trump's been giving them impeachment ammo since before he even got in office (I know you can't use evidence from a pre-presidency campaign to impeach but you know what I mean) so the fact that Pelosi/Schumer/et al waited til damn near the last fucking minute, while watching the world burn in the meantime, makes me think you may be right. Add that to the fact that they made this a limited inquiry rather than opening it up to *all* this clown's crimes and corruptions and you're almost definitely onto something by saying they just want to go into the election year saying "hey look we did something about him !"

and these same folk shocked Trump won and still has a good chance at re-election even tho he is trash.

These dudes stay on some “it’s not our job to educate the masses”

Ok

congrats?

If you're making a political argument, but are somehow above lobbying to the populace why that argument is important and valid and should get their focus above all else...you are a shitty politician.

We JUST saw the results of this line of thinking in 2016.

Dems can't just brush off people not caring about Ukraine as a failing of the populace. You're a politcal party. Fucking rally them to your side.

All that other smug fuckshit you typed is pretty irrelevant

normal people don't know shit and don't want to know shit because they want to eat hamburgers and watch football. This is why with even a few good people running for office, there is a possibility of making change at a local level. I mean, Pete Buttigieg became mayor with 9000 votes and now he's a nationally known figure.


America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

I think normal people have given up on life. not like killing themselves, like a hopelessness.

I gave up years ago when I realised they're all the same lying, cheating, out-for-themselves, mofos.

facts matter but doesn’t necessarily move the crowd. Biden cussed out a voter today, a good spark and it might get some folks off the sofa.

I know shit ain’t really going to change lol. He gotta go tho...

A last ditch election strategy. Because Trump is looking real strong in my opinion.

I think the state of the economy is going to be the biggest factor in this election. And it keeps humming along, no matter how much he tries to mess it up. There was another good jobs report this morning. And between now and November, there isn't much time for things to flip dramatically in the economy.

Democrats need something like impeachment to throw a monkey wrench in Trump's ability to coast on "his" economic results

Didn't you say Trump's tax cut was going to help him and the Dems better do something ?

I don't know...sounds like something I would say lol

The tax cut definitely didn't produce the results they said it was going to produce (really high economic growth). But I don't think the tax cut is going to be any attach ads against Trump.

So maybe I'm missing what you are getting at.

>Didn't you say Trump's tax cut was going to help him and the
>Dems better do something ?

Dems better watch out. Now you are saying it about the economy.


>The tax cut definitely didn't produce the results they said it
>was going to produce (really high economic growth). But I
>don't think the tax cut is going to be any attach ads against
>Trump.
>
>So maybe I'm missing what you are getting at.
>

If "state of the economy is going to be the biggest factor in this election" where was it during the midterms ? Why are the burbs moving away from him ?

IRT the testimony this week

overheard

“That woman is an idiot”

Followed by a dissertation on notable higher learning institutions like Harvard and Stanford being worthless

i.e. attack the messenger, attack the process...disregard all facts

This is America (c)

The "reasoning" behind this type of "logic" is driven by the fantasy-fueled, superstitious, mythological, garbage narratives and feverish desires of White Supremacist ideology.

Lack of information and the consequences of a failed education system is one thing. Not feeling--in your BODY--the weight and darkness of the lies pumped out for "normal" people to consume? A moral failure and spiritual crisis.

And Trump's election and everything that's happened since has convinced me that we'll never figure it out.

It's depressing as hell.


>The "reasoning" behind this type of "logic" is driven by the
>fantasy-fueled, superstitious, mythological, garbage
>narratives and feverish desires of White Supremacist ideology.
>
>
>Lack of information and the consequences of a failed education
>system is one thing. Not feeling--in your BODY--the weight and
>darkness of the lies pumped out for "normal" people to
>consume? A moral failure and spiritual crisis.

those dem candidates are weak as hell and them cancel culture activists on social media are a turn off

because niggas would rather talk about Lizzo's ass but then turn around and say 'but they never made the case'

They should have gone all in.

We all know the Senate is going to give him a pass- if they take it up at all.

Shit will probably turn into an investigation of Biden.


Everything should have been on the table. Impeach Trump for every possible/reasonable thing and hang it around the GOP's neck.

Call every witness. Go to court to get the blocked witnesses to appear.

Etc.


Instead, the judiciary rushed through it and they dropped TWO (lol) articles and quickly hid their hands.

They even gave him a trade win on the SAME day! They didn't even let impeachment marinate.


They look like they regret it or never believed it in the first place (outside of Schiff at times).

Nadler fucking looked and sounded like he was giving a book report on something he got bored of and just skimmed the end or some shit.


Hell, I don't see the relative downside of dragging the house hearings out another year and truly put the senate on the line in 2020. Air out all of this shit.

If the election is a "referendum on Trump" then lets do it.


Yeah pass some bills that will die in the senate, but keep exposing all of Trumps awfulness.


Now TWO (lol lol) articles will be sent to the senate, where they will quickly give him a pass or worse- drag out their trial with an investigation of Biden and force most of our Presidential candidates to put their campaigns on hold.


Random but related- did you see Joe Biden said recently he doesn't want Democrats to have too much power- that he wants the GOP around? The he doesn't think either party should have too much power?


I reference this because their timidness (most of the time) with impeachment, Biden's comment, their obvious disdain for Warren/Sanders, etc I think is just more and more proof that Democrats really want to be a minority party.

They aren't there to advance a progressive agenda. They are just there to make sure the GOP doesn't goo *too* far.


Shit has me fucked up man. I think its been this way at least since Reagan kicked their asses so bad Bill Clinton essentially had to run as a Republican- and he needed a spoiler at that.


I get that Democrats can only do so much to educate and inform the public.

But they could have done a lot fucking more and acted like they believed in their own mission/purpose/whatever you want to call it.

Looking like/acting like they had to hurry and get through this was a huge mistake.


And again, two articles? Clinton got two for lying about a blow job. And one of those was obstruction of justice. How did Trump not get an article for obstruction of justice?

theres been times where i think the dems were so stupid then the next day i saw why they did it and it made sense. theyre revising these tonight and tomorrow right? no idea if that will somehow turn out better or just a chance for the GOP to complain more.

theres so much contradictory reporting on how the trial will go in the senate, i cant really predict what will happen. i dont expect a conviction in the senate but im not ruling out the trial still being a bad look for trump and hurting him in the election.

You've been one of the strongest advocates here for going full bore on impeachment. While virtually all of us agree that Trump *should* be impeached - how do you envision this playing out in actuality?

Are you satisfied just with the House issuing articles of impeachment and voting to impeach Trump? When the inevitable happens (impeachment gets halted in its tracks in the Senate) - what to speak of the aftermath? Do you see a positive political outcome for Democrats? What does that look like?

They will become the communist party

Why frame the trial as having a negative impact on Ds?

R stands for Ruskie.

The path is just not there, similar to how it wasn't there for Clinton.

What I inferred somewhat from his post above and what I certainly believe is that they need this to drag on for as long as possible. They shot their wad pretty quickly here and I don't see the rush. They've got the house majority through the next election. Stretch it out like Caramelo here. Call mad witnesses. Inundate them with allegations. The traction they got here was from people like Sondland and Hill getting allegations and critiques out there. Hill was sharper than the whole fucking house put together and Sonland was a character; he had real charisma.

There are enough bureaucrats, diplomats, military people and other people involved in some aspect of government that despise Trump's ass to fill the calendar chock full of testimony.

They seem eager to push this through like that is somehow advantageous. I don't understand what it serves them to try to force this upon the Senate when it's evident AF that they won't vote the same way. This is such an opportunity for negative press (which we know Trump is great at spinning, but still, his followers are pretty much locked in anyway). It also lets pressure mount for the many down-ballot races in 2020. Get the Senate vote or lack thereof as close to the election as possible. Weaponize that outcome instead of getting it out of the way.

Already the GOP has seized on the chance to turn the partisanship of these hearings--which is stark on both sides, let's be honest--into a favorable facet for them. On one hand, the GOP will defend any and all things Trump does, up until very ridiculous statements that amount to "well he didn't shout I AM COMMITTING EXORTION!" while allegedly committing extortion" and "well, you didn't see it with your own eyes so how do you know it happened?" But they have managed to largely portray themselves as the aggrieved party here and, to those who they actually can convince, it's worked. Meanwhile the Dems have been pushing impeachment from the start and the votes, investigations and so forth pile up to suggest that this is a "witch hunt," again to those who are prone to that suggestion. Now, even though I will acknowledge that there has been a press to remove Trump (when there should have been a press to counter his actions!), that is actually immaterial provided there were impeacable offenses committed here, which, in a sane world, there were.

All this blathering is to say I agree mostly, that the proceedings should have been comprehensive and lengthy. Don't nut so quick, get up in those guts, do some damage to the side walls. But the DNC is the party of premature ejaculation.

And to add to that, there are wealthy democrats who have the support of trump, because they are totally against Warren and Sanders. Wall Street dems have already stated that they would vote for trump if sanders or warren wins the democratic nomination.

This is why Bloomberg has been pushed into the election.

The wealthy fear the wealth tax more than anything else, considering the tax will be applied to not only income but to all assets, including unrealized gains on stock.

So even though this man has committed bribery and treason, which are listed as high crimes in US constitution, powerful entities of America are not going to allow him to be removed or voted out of office, especially if warren or sanders get the nod.


I always questioned the law that the lower house is solely responsible for all impeachments , and the upper house is solely responsible for all impeachment hearings or trials. How could there not be a conflict of interest if the majority of both or one of those houses make up the party that the president represents?

Some of them are ignorant motherfuckers and others are greedy pieces of shit.

You also get the odd opportunist and aloof nihilist, but most fall into those other three categories.

I’m sure a good portion of Republican voters are the same way. They just vote for whoever has the R next to their name

They use all the other excuses to hide it.

I've never met a convincing repug.

but in the sense that they are actual bigots or motivated by their bigotry, not necessarily. some people are just some whats-in-it-for-me motherfuckers and others just want to see mad-making. if you're on this board, you can understand the latter to some extent, although maybe not to the extent that the leader of the "free world" should be the mad-maker in chief

>but in the sense that they are actual bigots or motivated by
>their bigotry, not necessarily. some people are just some
>whats-in-it-for-me motherfuckers and others just want to see
>mad-making. if you're on this board, you can understand the
>latter to some extent, although maybe not to the extent that
>the leader of the "free world" should be the mad-maker in
>chief


If they support the racist orange clown, they are bigots motivated by bigotry. They can try to use the excuse of "owing the libarards or doing it for the 401k", it's still just an excuse used to cover up supporting a bigot.

The Klan tried to rebrand and say they were a civil rights organization, nope still the Klan. Atwater admitted, they say state's rights and thats what Trump supporters are doing , faking it.

Im not a racist, but I am a Christian and the KKK meetings have really good coffee and donuts.

I learned the director of my new employer is a proud supporter. He doesn’t come across as racist...probably more ignorant. I need to find ways to coexist because I’m extremely uncomfortable in his presence...

but most of them do. They either don’t know it or just lie to themselves to feel better about themselves.

They are everywhere.

not sure if they all voted for him but they have definitely made comments that they support what hes done or that they disapprove that theyre trying to take him down.

then they complain that they pay too much for health insurance.

someone gifted him a trump doll at the holiday party. He held that bitch up like, “yeah”. I put my head down...

...is a prime example of how much I hate how right wingers can easily preempt and co-opt legit beefs with bad actors.

she was on a CNN Town Hall recently, answering a question regarding impeachment, and in her response, she mentioned that the actions of the George W. Bush regime did not "rise to impeachment", even when it was known they weren't telling the truth about weapons of mass destruction... to start a war.

that she's the one leading this charge EVEN with the knowledge of the GOP Senate basically deading this whole affair, does not bode well.

whole thing reminded me of for as how bad Trump is... George W. Bush might still be worse, if not the WOAT

... about Individual 1's Reign of Horror. You've got folks glorifying and longing for the GWB years, which is just totally insane if you actually take just a second and try and remember just how bad those 8 years were. The easiest way to look at it is to remember that the Bush Jr./Cheney years were SO BAD that Racist Ass America elected a black president to succeed him.

I hesitate to call the GWB years "worse" than what's happening now (I think the longterm ramifications of what I-1 is doing will be harder to reverse) but they are not far off. Just an entirely different variety of horrible.


>...is a prime example of how much I hate how right wingers
>can easily preempt and co-opt legit beefs with bad actors.
>
>she was on a CNN Town Hall recently, answering a question
>regarding impeachment, and in her response, she mentioned that
>the actions of the George W. Bush regime did not "rise to
>impeachment", even when it was known they weren't telling the
>truth about weapons of mass destruction... to start a war.
>
>that she's the one leading this charge EVEN with the knowledge
>of the GOP Senate basically deading this whole affair, does
>not bode well.
>
>whole thing reminded me of for as how bad Trump is... George
>W. Bush might still be worse, if not the WOAT

personal comportment was not and is not boorish and uncouth, like Trump. That's what animates alot of people the most - the way Trump talks and acts and carries himself. They don't necessarily mind a president doing terrible things that lead to many deaths and world turmoil, as long as he carries himself similar to the way they do.

I'm referring to the people who WERE disgusted by Bush at the time, because of the terrible things and many deaths ... but who now say shit like "in hindsight he wasn't that bad a president." Know what I mean.

I've been reading the centrist-splaining of her "brilliant tactics" on this trade deal and honestly it's about as bad as reading people defend Trump's policies.

I love it.

i couldnt get myself to watch today. been listening to music instead. i watched them argue last night. that was enough until the next step.

cant help myself.

it was funny to see collins so mad that nadler pushed the vote to this morning at the very end. GOP was stalling all day and theyre mad nadler didnt wrap it up yesterday.

vote was pretty straight forward except for Ted Lieu missing the vote because he was sick.

what now?