Post puberty?

What would High School and College female sports look in 5 yrs like if biological males are granted full access to compete as females?

What would happen to scholarships, records, the spirit of fair competition?

Would you be upset if your daughter was unable to make a team or looses in a tournament to a biological male?

Or

Do you feel that this phenomenon is a new normal matter that's being into an issue for no reason?

Are people being insensitive?

Should gender specific sports be eliminated? If so, why and what would be the long-trem unintended consequences (negative and positive)?



House Democrats Vote to Let Boys Play on Girls’ Teams

Michael Foust | ChristianHeadlines.com Contributor | Friday, May 3, 2019

https://www.christianheadlines.com/contributors/michael-foust/house-democrats-vote-to-let-boys-play-on-girls-teams.html

House Democrats easily defeated an amendment this week that would have prevented biological females from being forced to compete against biological males in sporting events.

The amendment to the Equality Act by Republican Rep. Greg Steube of Florida was voted down Wednesday in the Democratic-controlled House Judiciary Committee, 22-10. Steube says he will bring the amendment back up on the floor.

Opponents and even supporters of the Equality Act warn the bill could forever harm female sports on the high school and collegiate level.

This week, three current or former female athletes – Doriane Coleman, Martina Navratilova and Sanya Richards-Ross – penned an editorial in The Washington Post asserting the bill “would make it unlawful to differentiate among girls and women in sports on the basis of sex for any purpose.” Navratilova’s stance is particularly noteworthy. She is a lesbian and has drawn loud criticism from the LGBT community for her stance.

Steube said his amendment would strengthen women’s sports.

“I’m offering this amendment today to ensure that our daughters are provided an equal playing field in sports for generations to come, and that female athletes are not competing against male athletes for athletic scholarships and Title IX funding,” Steube said. “... I want to guarantee that biological women are not forced to compete against biological men at all levels of athletic competition.”


Science, he said, “has proven time and time again that there is a significant performance difference between biological males and females from puberty onward.”

Steube referenced a biological male weightlifter who broke four female world records in a female competition. The weightlifter won all nine events in which he lifted.

“From percentage of lean muscle to heart size, body fat, and joint angles, the bodies of men and women are distinctly unique and produce a vast and tangible athletic performance differences. In fact, there is an average 10-12 percent performance gap between elite biological male and female athletes,” Steube said.

Coleman, Navratilova and Richards-Ross agreed, saying the “reality is that putting male- and female-bodied athletes together is co-ed or open sport.”

“And in open sport, females lose,” they wrote.

“Some Equality Act advocates argue that this is hyperbole and outdated stereotype,” the three women wrote. “They say, as the ACLU has, that there is ‘ample evidence that girls can compete and win against boys.’ They are wrong. The evidence is unequivocal that starting in puberty, in every sport except sailing, shooting and riding, there will always be significant numbers of boys and men who would beat the best girls and women in head-to-head competition. Claims to the contrary are simply a denial of science.”

The women noted that Team USA female sprinter Allyson Felix – who has won multiple world championships – has a lifetime best of 49.26 seconds in the 400 meters. But in 2018, 275 high school boys ran faster on 783 occasions.


“The sex differential isn’t the result of boys and men having a male gender identity, more resources, better training or superior discipline. It’s because they have androgenized bodies,” they wrote.


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

It's utterly unsurprising that this article fails to mention that the NCAA has its own transgender policy that's been in place for the better part of a decade that draws clear lines and avoids the chaos that a lot of this amendment's advocates pretend to be concerned with.

I'd be more willing to accept that the people here were trying to protect women's sports if they didn't keep trying to scare people by making it seem like transgender people were trying to steal something of actual monetary value, like scholarships to NCAA schools. That's a lie, and the people doing it are liars. And it should make us doubt their motives.

>It's utterly unsurprising that this article fails to mention
>that the NCAA has its own transgender policy that's been in
>place for the better part of a decade that draws clear lines
>and avoids the chaos that a lot of this amendment's advocates
>pretend to be concerned with.
>

So are the state legislatures misinformed and are wrong?

So, could this have soemthing to do with the argument? I'm asking not debating.

"School sports are actually not mentioned in the Equality Act, nor does it amend Title IX, which outlaws discrimination in education on the basis of sex. But the bill would change other existing civil rights laws governing educational settings. And that would provide a legal basis for transgender students to make the claim in court that they have a right to compete on teams that match their gender identity."

https://www.outsports.com/2019/4/3/18294310/transgender-inclusion-trans-sports-house-equality-athletes




>I'd be more willing to accept that the people here were trying
>to protect women's sports if they didn't keep trying to scare
>people by making it seem like transgender people were trying
>to steal something of actual monetary value, like scholarships
>to NCAA schools. That's a lie, and the people doing it are
>liars. And it should make us doubt their motives.

What points are being used to scare people? Who said that anyone was intending or purposefully trying to steal something? So, are you saying that bringing up unintened consequences is a scare tactic?





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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

Calls on the tired stereotypes of transgender people as ‘fake’ women or men out to ‘trick’ people.

>Calls on the tired stereotypes of transgender people as
>‘fake’ women or men out to ‘trick’ people.


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

Yeah, not sure how that's a 'dog whistle'

and it’s a slippery slope.

Let another Rachael Dolezal pop up snatching scholarships because they transitioned to Black and folks get out their fine tooth combs to speak about how it’s different.

>and it’s a slippery slope.
>
>Let another Rachael Dolezal pop up snatching scholarships
>because they transitioned to Black and folks get out their
>fine tooth combs to speak about how it’s different.

ALL FACTS!


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

There’s a difference. And yes it becomes a dog whistle, not through the specific intent every single time it’s used (i don’t know you or what you think/feel about trans folks) but because it is often used to connect, again, to a long and tired and violent history of trans ppl as ‘confused’ ‘ill’ or in some way trying to be someone they’re actually not.

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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

it undermines those who really were "assigned." i remember in college reading about how many interstitial sex babies there were, it was astonishingly common (we are talking 1 in 2000 type common, which is quite common really). in some cases there was intervention to sort of steer the child biologically toward a certain gender (including surgery), and i would consider that "assigned" gender. but the majority of babies are not "assigned" a gender in any medical or biological sense, and to posit that they are undermines the significant minority that does have that experience.

I'm not sure how it is a misnomer because someone other than the individual (their parents, the doctors, the state) checks either M or F on the birth certificate.

and two, that's the language the trans community, by large, seems to use and want others to use as a form of respectful acknowledgement that the gender they identify with is their actual gender, not a 'choice.'

only adds clarity where things were already relatively clear. i swear to god some people are just semantics warriors now.

Insisting that I repeat myself according to your specific language choice isn't how you ask a good faith question.

because I respect your insight. And you didn't answer my second set of questions. You tossed out pure opinion. But OK. Cool. Thanks for responding.


>Insisting that I repeat myself according to your specific
>language choice isn't how you ask a good faith question.


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

Look at this

http://oi64.tinypic.com/ao2of8.jpg
https://www.denverpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/ecad97002159430797c38516e5bb115d.jpg?w=524
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/02/26/sports/26WRESTLING/26WRESTLING-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/OohMeh2334BesUneo3yXwIhfvhg=/0x139:955x850/1200x800/filters:focal(229x175:459x405)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/60062503/Screen_Shot_2018_06_13_at_8.33.42_PM.0.png

Does this look fair to girls and women, at all? Male and female bodies are different and largely unchangeable. Trans athletes can compete in the boys/male leagues if they want.

Has to be the weirdest shit in the world.

Cold clockin women.

how pointless and silly competitive sports really are.

almost went off but Starv is a black belt in education and i know his response is way more nuanced then that

That's why I said "as a society."

I'm just lazily poasting, though. I'm not gonna really fight this fight in here.

My real answer to the original question is: Yeah, it's complicated, but I don't take the current "controversy" seriously at all.

As a society, we have to come to some just consensus about what gender really means, and that will take some time and force us to reevaluate how certain things work, even things with long traditions.

But when Republicans introduce a bill that involves transgender issues, in any way, in 2019, you're a fucking fool if you think they actually care about the issue.

Like the development of:

Leadership Skills
Teamwork skills
Self-Respect
Sel-discipline
A platform that can be used for good
The creation of financial security and philanthropy
Servanthood
Dedication
etc.




.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

>Like the development of:
>
>Leadership Skills

Join the band.

>Teamwork skills

Join the band.

>Self-Respect

If your self-respect comes from having good biochemistry, it's not very valuable self respect. Do something creative.

>Sel-discipline

Study math.

>A platform that can be used for good

There are a million platforms, and I don't see sports used for good all that often.

>The creation of financial security and philanthropy

Financial security? Like practicing every day to make it into the NFL, and if you're incredibly lucky, making it and retiring five years later with brain damage and a shitty pension, when you could have spent your youth studying to be a doctor?

>Servanthood

What the fuck is that?

>Dedication

Now you're just typing words.


Like I said above, I'm not really trying to postjack here, so we can let this argument drop. But I honestly don't see anything of value in competitive sports. On the contrary, I see a huge amount of harm that's done in modern society by our obsession with "winning."

Have you ever played "competitive" sports?


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

>Have you ever played "competitive" sports?


Occasionally play a bit of poker, but that's for money, not for glory. There, trying to win is a good way to lose.

Learning how to deal with competition is a life-long survival skill. My students who don't play competitive sports almost always have more difficulty dealing with adversity.

Sports also provide an enjoyable means of keeping one's body in shape. Do you exercise at all? Or you just unhealthy sports critic? How do you exercise? Kids that grow up playing competitive sports are less likely to be obese as adults.

And are you smart enough for chess? I would kick your @$$.

.
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“It was the evidence from science and history that prompted me to abandon my atheism and become a Christian.” — Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

Lmao... just admit you sucked at sports.

It’s nit for everyone but it’s wild to act like there aren’t any benefits.

My band didn't play at sporting events. We certainly didn't march.

And I didn't give a fuck about sports, because they're silly, so of course I sucked at them. But I also suck at chemistry, and I see plenty of value in that.

i was wrong

And they didn't really deserve much nuance, did they?

Males are activity based. We do things together. We challenge each other. We challenge other teams of men. It's how we form bonds. Sports is a part of that.

Period.

>Males are activity based. We do things together. We challenge
>each other. We challenge other teams of men. It's how we form
>bonds. Sports is a part of that.
>
>Period.

Our culture is so sports-centric it's almost impossible for someof us to realize that yes, there are other ways for kids to learn team work, hard work, etc.

Just like you can learn morality without religion.

This dumb antiquated gender norm is what's putting us in this situation in the first place.

It's unfair to either sex (or gender, in this case) to ignore the differences and forcibly try to treat different people with different needs and wants as 'the same.'

An invented norm can become a practical reality. Gender is not the only place where that happens.

But I deal with college students every day. And this generation is gleefully breaking those norms every day. Who knows how long that holds up, but I deal with people who honestly, sincerely live outside those gender lines with no sense of shame or loss at all.

>And this generation is gleefully breaking those norms every day.

This was fun to read.

So I can't take them TOO seriously.

My favorite thing about them is that they don't care if I take them seriously. It's their world. I'm just slowly decaying in it.

And if you’re in a college setting, Bernie is a key proponent of things that directly affect college students, like student loan debt forgiveness.

Who should they be politically supporting? Polls of young Americans on any given issue line up nicely with Bernie’s longtime positions.

What an odd thing to say.

Peace,

Spirit (Alan)
http://wutangbook.com

180 degrees backward.

I can tell that as an educator I saw a clear line between the women I had who participated in sports and the ones who didn't (I can't comment on men because my classes were overwhelmingly female). I see it also in women I've worked with and dated. You absolutely learn how to compete, deal with adversity, work as a team and focus on the task at hand from sports. I can tell you that from my personal experience as well. I also played in the band (I was a symphonic band percussionist and played in different popular music bands outside of school), I was a pretty good student (total out of pocket for undergrad/grad was 12K in five years), I traveled extensively and know multiple languages. They all have their own unique benefits and some shared ones, but I don't think anything better prepared me for society than sports and the things I mentioned there came through in a way that they absolutely did not in any of those other activities.

I'm an educator too, and my vague impressions don't correspond AT ALL with yours. Some of the athletes I've known have been very curious and interested in the world. Many more (like a lot of students generally), seem more interested in "getting by" in the class than in actually understanding the ideas. A lot of people don't know what a class is for if it's not for a grade. People who care about winning and losing are especially prone to this.

And while everyone's mentioning teamwork (which is obviously fostered in team sports, though it can be in other settings as well), it comes at a cost to independence and creativity, which are arguably more valuable.

I'm not talking about some D1 football player who wouldn't be in college if not for sports and who is totally focused on sports. It's unreasonable to expect that person to give two shits and if you can't see that then I've vastly overestimated you for years here. But I suspect you do get it.

I'm talking about people who are studious and also compete(d) in sports. With a similar level of enthusiasm/application between the athlete and the non-athlete, I found the former to be better equipped to deal with surprises, adapt, work with other people and generally go beyond the sheltered, unrealistic setting of the American school system.

I also don't agree that sports inhibit creativity. Creativity, improvisation, reaction and adaptation are all fundamental parts of athletics. Defining your own style is also part of it, but doing so in a way that conscious of other people and how it meshes with them. It's a mixture of individualism and collectivism, the same sort of anthropomorphic dynamic we've seen in society since the earliest written accounts of humanity.

In short I think you're being super dismissive here, though that was pretty evident with your "join the band" comments.

That doesn't seem pointless.

There's the nuance that tomjohn was looking for me to admit to, above.

Then again, there are a lot of destructive things that are enjoyable. Should we let our kids play tackle football? Or box? There was a time when that was perfectly normal, and I'm sure it's a lot of fun for a lot of the kids. But it's not good for them.

But this isn't about what's good and what's bad.

My point about it being silly, and how that relates to this discussion, is the role of biochemistry. If biochemistry really gives people such a strong advantage (as I think one can validly argue here, and as we've seen in numerous doping scandals over the years), then is it really people who are competing, or is it biochemistries that are competing? And if it's biochemistries, why should anyone care?

>
>There's the nuance that tomjohn was looking for me to admit
>to, above.
>
>Then again, there are a lot of destructive things that are
>enjoyable. Should we let our kids play tackle football? Or
>box? There was a time when that was perfectly normal, and I'm
>sure it's a lot of fun for a lot of the kids. But it's not
>good for them.

Did both...continue to box
also got a undergrad and masters in Engineering and a law degree
it was great for me
but I also was taught that what I "do" is not who I am


>But this isn't about what's good and what's bad.
>
>My point about it being silly, and how that relates to this
>discussion, is the role of biochemistry. If biochemistry
>really gives people such a strong advantage (as I think one
>can validly argue here, and as we've seen in numerous doping
>scandals over the years), then is it really people who are
>competing, or is it biochemistries that are competing? And if
>it's biochemistries, why should anyone care?

True
like I said I knew there was more nuance
shit you see I got Case to recant something down below
sorry I'm a sucker for debates and discussions from everywhere
thanks for breaking it down further
I miss that on these boards

>>My point about it being silly, and how that relates to this
>>discussion, is the role of biochemistry. If biochemistry
>>really gives people such a strong advantage (as I think one
>>can validly argue here, and as we've seen in numerous doping
>>scandals over the years), then is it really people who are
>>competing, or is it biochemistries that are competing? And
>if
>>it's biochemistries, why should anyone care?
>
>True
>like I said I knew there was more nuance
>shit you see I got Case to recant something down below
>sorry I'm a sucker for debates and discussions from
>everywhere
>thanks for breaking it down further
>I miss that on these boards

Yeah, and I'll admit that while I meant all that I said, I was playing up the shock value. You and I disagree on some aspects of this, and that's fine.

For example, should Usain Bolt been allowed to compete given that he was so physically gifted? Yes he put in a lot of hard work (a lot less than other athletes from what I've read). But his biochemistry is what really sets him apart from the competition.

Similarly, what separates a woman runner and a transwoman runner? Biochemistry.

Why was the gap between Bolt and his competition okay, but not in the second case?

I'd argue that it is because it is still competitive in the Bolt case. It is rare to see someone so physically gifted that the competition stands no chance.

But that's not the situation in the case of trans athletes. It is not by chance that records are broken quite frequently in these competitions. The gap in physical abilities is so large that you don't have to even be elite in your abilities to win, let alone to dominate

They are purposely handicapping Caster Semenya along these lines

https://www.livescience.com/65412-caster-semenya-testosterone-gender-segregation.html

I would say with far more seriousness that sports should have NEVER been a part of college admissions or scholarships in the first place.

If you wanna play, play. But that's not what you're there to do when you're in college.

I mean, yeah, the college admissions system is complicated and completely fucked up. But supplementing criteria that arguably aren't completely correlated with academic ability or preparedness, with other criteria that have absolutely no plausible correlation with academic ability or preparedness, never made any sense.

My issue with this is a transgendered wrestling against girls is just wrong.

Can’t have some transgendered windmilling in the WNBA.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

christianheadlines.com is a valid peer-reviewed news source.

ChristianHeadlines.com is a member of the Salem Web Network of sites including:
Bible Study ToolsChristianity.com Crosscards.com Crosswalk.com GodTube.com Jesus.org Christian Ministry VideoChristian Ministry RadioReligion TodayAdvertise with UsContact Us
Copyright © 2019, ChristianHeadlines.com. All rights reserved. Article Images Copyright © JupiterImages Corporation.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

>christianheadlines.com is a valid peer-reviewed news source.

Do you even know what peer-reviewed means?! I'm legit crying.

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

because i dont see that on that website

>because i dont see that on that website.

Great Point. I'll take note of that fact and just call the new site reputable. The overreach on my part was using the term peer-reviewed for the news site.

Fair enough. Point taken. Salem Web Network is a reputable organization with multiple media outlets (broadcasting and print and web).





.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

>
>Fair enough. Point taken. Salem Web Network is a reputable
>organization with multiple media outlets (broadcasting and
>print and web).
>
>
>
>
>
>.
>.

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

But calling a news org 'reputable' typically starts with the absence of bias. That can't legitimately be claimed by Salem or any of its properties.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

discussion on the matter.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

Instead of talking about why you agree, you're taking the opportunity to join the shame train against him rather than discussing the topic.
That's a real coward move on your part. Easier to join the cool kids majority of okp trashing him rather than have the courage to stand on yours and have them trashing you too huh?

America has imported more warlord theocracy from Afghanistan than it has exported democracy.

Males are stronger than females from birth...


♥ :* I LUV U 2!!! :* ♥

Y'all be letting your politics trump your logic.

You really think folks are undergoing dramatic physical changes so they could be the best weightlifter in the tri-county area? These are folks undergoing dramatic changes who are just trying to keep their lives as normal as possible. What it calls for from us is a little perspective. Unless some athlete is being harmed (I would take a close look at combat sports), then let people live.

I'm for having rules for safety but whenever we have these conversations about fairness and trans athletes they always ignore two factors:

1) There are as kids who are female to male transitioning folks who are also trying to play sports (there's no advantage there); and

2) The point of these sports are to build character and stuff right? It's not like the trans athletes are taking pro spots or even college scholarships. They're just kids, like all of our kids, trying to live as normal a life as possible.

and again, this happens in such a miniscule number of cases that it's shocking to me when people act like this is a tide change.

...environment. It's neither safe nor fun for them to allow women-with-mens-bodies to compete in their leagues.

it's odd that we're even having this conversation. We need to be up front about the fact that this issue has a disproportionate role in the national dialogue because some people who just aren't comfortable with Trans folks generally. It's not a coincidence that the sources he sites are all Christian blogs.

...that a religious-based website has a strong bias and agenda.

Aside from that, it just doesn't seem fair to women, and takes away one of their 100% female spaces (the athletic field/court/rink/etc.)

Not really a subject that comes up much, but one of the main reasons I thought about it was having a few young women in my family in college right now, and seeing this news story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6sziVLqtO8

The kids seem mostly cool with it, but then again she's 51. If she was 21 and actually good then they might feel differently. I don't know. My fear is men finding a way to abuse this system.

Personally, I think trans athletes (male-to-female) could just play in the mens/boys league.

Invented entirely for political reasons that have nothing at all to do with sports.

>
>Invented entirely for political reasons that have nothing at
>all to do with sports.
>

What are the hidden reasons?


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

To keep conservative evangelicals afraid of what will happen if the godless sissy libs take over.

and allows conservatives to argue that we've all lost our way. That it's a sign of how immoral (and illogical) we have been. It's pretty standard culture wars stuff.

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

i was saying that's what the article was saying

link/sig is just my tumblr i haven't touched in years lol

But, most victories and records those athletes win will be looked at askance by alot of people, like a virtual asterisk (or maybe an actual one, at some point).

Just make steroids legal... People are gonna do the shit anyway and if you just equally enhance the field them boom

issues done

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Do tell.


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

to prey on women under the guise of spiritual discussions.

if I practice hard maybe I'll go pro like you.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

Competing in women's sports.

If I saw a Translady beating the brakes off a Cis lady in boxing or MMA I'd feel kinda awkward

then you are by default acknowledging the physical advantage in the realm of competitive sports that atheists who are born male will have over those who are born female.

Anything else is just arguing for the sake of arguing.


.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

you can acknowledge that there's a physical disparity and still believe that unless someone's safety is involved, the idea of being second best at field hockey isn't enough to justify treating someone like a second class citizen.

No one is treating anyone as a second class citizen.


.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

>then you are by default acknowledging the physical advantage
>in the realm of competitive sports that atheists who are born
>male will have over those who are born female.


What do their religious beliefs have to do with anything???

>then you are by default acknowledging the physical advantage
>in the realm of competitive sports that atheists who are born
>male will have over those who are born female.

“Shouldn’t complete in combat sports”

“Atheists who are born male.”

Typos are hilarious.

But also, the whole premise of separating sports by gender is undergirded with the idea that women and men have different levels of athletic ability, in a generalized sense.

Maybe we should create new sports that are entirely gender neutral from a competitive perspective? Some sports seem like they could be mixed gender, like auto racing.

This is an odd conversation though, because it seems like the number of times when a trans woman will be competing in any women’s sport will be an outlier occurrence for some time.

As a side note, are there any trans men athletes of note in men’s sports?

Some may argue that they'll have advantage...so what? People have advantages in all kinds of ways. People from richer countries have the advantage of better facilities, better coaches, better access to nutritional information. Taller people have an advantage of height over shorter people. Einstein had more neurons in his brain than your average brain, should he be excluded from applying for research grants cause he was smarter than other scientists?

You speak about lessons, but this is an excellent lesson for any young person. Captain Picard said "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." You feel slighted because somebody has an alleged advantage over you? What's your response? You bitch and moan and cry and throw a fit? Or do you work harder? Stay in the gym longer, eat better? You can whine that the world is changing in ways you don't like, or you can accept that change, stop fucking crying, and work on improving yourself.

Mormans who have done missions and athletes who go juco and redshirt are often much older than their competitors. The kid who won the 100m last year was in his mid 20's. He's clearly in his athletic prime whereas others are just getting done with puberty. Should they be banned? It's an unfair athletic advantage.

IF your concerns are competitive fairness

beasting on the field, court or track because he was 26?

You don’t because there isn’t a legit advantage.

And Cameron Burrell (the 23yr old college senior you reference) didn't even dominate the NCAA. He won the title, but the race was close. And he lost many times throughout the season.

Not good examples you are putting out. Nothing in those cases affect competitive fairness

If the physical advantages resulting from transitions don't directly affect the competitive balance of the sport, I'm all for it. And I think there are some sports where that criteria fits.

I don't think it should be a case by case basis though. Not like: person A is trans but she's pretty slow so we'll let her run with the girls. There should be a blanket policy.

Casey Clinger was one of the best distance runners in the nation when he was a senior in highschool, continued running well in XC at BYU (I think he was an All-American at Nats in 2017) and is now finishing his first year of a two year mission in Japan. When he returns, he'll be a 22 year old sophomore with three years of eligibility. And he's only really unique in that program because of his level of success prior to college (4:02 mile, 8:44 3200m). He would have been a huge recruiting get for any distance oriented program, but they have a bunch of runners who follow pretty much the same plan where you can retain eligibility for a mission. Between that and the usual redshirt allowance, you're looking at a team that fields a pretty substantial number of 25 year olds every single year.

I don't have a problem with this, by the way. But I also think it's a bigger competitive advantage than trans athletes have, and also I suspect it's substantially more common.

Just looking at the past few years of NCAA championship results

Below is their roster. Finding out athlete ages is a pretty big pain in the ass, but you can see a lot of the details in the "roster year" section, where you have a bunch of guys with 2-3 gaps in their time being rostered. If I recall correctly, NCAA only does multi-year eligibility allowances with military service and missionary trips and at BYU it's pretty much exclusively the latter.

Their 2018 team finished third, but you're right that there aren't a lot of those older guys on that varsity squad. The names I know are up there in BYU scorers are Clinger, Linkletter, and McMillan. Out of those, McMillan is the only one with the telltale two year gap, which should make him 23+ right now. That's not substantially older than your average NCAA athlete, but he should also have at least two years more eligiblity left, even if he's listed as a senior.

But again, you're right as to the current team. They apparently had an excellent 2016-2017 recruiting class (highlighted by Clinger but it was apparently also deep too - I'm just at the edge of my depth in NCAA XC fanship) and the excellent 2018 XC team was the result of those classes. If those guys all run four consecutive years, then it's a normal college cross country team. If they start taking two years off (like Clinger is now) and then return at ages 23-25, that's kind of weird.

And they lost the NAU, a school with several athletes substantially into their 20s.

Some BYU folks may be good, but they aren't beating everyone handedly in every race. They lose races... frequently.

It's hard to argue that age causes the sport to be uncompetitive when the people you point to as having a distinct advantage are right there in the middle of the pack. I have no problem putting an age cap on NCAA sports, but I don't think it would make any difference.

waiting to enter college so they could dominate their sports.

There is a reason this isn’t happen though.

There's unquestionably an advantage but for most athletes if you're good enough to go pro you do so as soon as possible, and if you're not good enough to go pro, being ncaa champ is usually not a good enough reason to delay your degree long enough. But I don't think anyone is denying that athletic primes is in the mid 20s.

My understanding is that your eligibility starts when you start classes at an NCAA DI institution *or* one year after your graduation even if you don't. From either of those start points, you get four years except for:

-redshirt
-mission
-military service

This is related to my beef with the article, that it exploits the apparently widescale perception that a bunch of conservative chuds in Florida are the first people to think of this issue. The NCAA is a deeply dumb and exploitative institution, but basically everything they do - good or bad - is to preserve the idea of fairness so they're actually pretty careful about trying to close loopholes that can lead to competitive advantages while balancing them out with people's real lives. Trans athletes have real, specific requirements to participate at NCAA institutions that are meant to control any possible biological advantage. The same is true of age.

or train for 3 years and then start college and play football or basketball for 4 years.

People rarely do that because the risk is far greater than the reward of a competitive advantage.

who wish to compete as women? I can think of one (Fallon Fox) and she was nowhere near dominant. If that's the case then isn't this whole thing moot?

I mean, I wouldn't put it as a priority on my public policy checklist. It wouldn't even rank as an afterthought.
But if questioned on the issue, my opinion is it's not right or fair.

https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2019/02/24/connecticut-runners-part-of-debate-over-transgender-athletes

because it doesn't make much of a difference? or am I conflating?

That reason is based on the typical physical differences between the sexes (height, weight, strength, speed, etc).
Many sports are also segmented by age group for the exact same reasons.
The idea behind segmenting across sex and age is to maintain a level of competitive balance and fairness. Yes, there may be some exceptional athletes that show up from time to time. But there won't be a group that is systematically going to have a physical advantage.

I hope we can agree on these points.


I think many male to female trans have distinct physical advantages over their peer cis women that don't come about naturally. Especially if they developed as a male through their teenage years. This gives them a systematic advantage over their peers which is not fair.

For the BYU example, the age group for NCAA is typically like 18-23. Folks in that range are for the most part developed already. So I don't think the 25-26 year old Mormon is going to throw off the competitive balance much here. But if there is evidence of it, I would be willing to swing the other way and say those exemptions should not be granted.

>
>I think many male to female trans have distinct physical
>advantages over their peer cis women that don't come about
>naturally. Especially if they developed as a male through
>their teenage years. This gives them a systematic advantage
>over their peers which is not fair.

From my understanding, the primary LASTING difference is bone size. If someone goes through puberty as a boy, they're likely going to have longer bones... so taller with longer limbs, on average.

But the density of those bones would change with hormone therapy. So would body fat composition, muscle size and strength... negating the advantage of going through puberty as a male for many sports.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage-at-the-olympics/2016/08/05/08169676-5b50-11e6-9aee-8075993d73a2_story.html?utm_term=.96396eb19971

and stomping their teenaged competition then flaming out in the pros

for literally decades


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Good to hear. That means we're done talking about this obvious reactionary bait. If 25 year old Mormons dominating, say, college cross country* is not of sufficient interest to make this an issue - then I assume the one transgender DII 400m hurdler is similarly not an issue.

So why throw the chuds this bait? There is no threat to women's sports that's actually happening. Just a bunch of assholes who are desperately unable to mind their own business.

*here's BYU's roster. see all the guys who started their college career in 2017 who are listed as sophomores and juniors?


https://byucougars.com/roster/m-cross-country/2020-2021

Those are the ages of a plain old senior, and a missionary redshirted senior.
There is not much of a difference competitively. So it's not an issue (to me, it is a big issue to some) because it's uncommon. It's a non-issue because it doesn't matter.

BYU's runners are good because they are good, not because of their age.

Look at their top two runners this year:
Connor Mantz: Elite in HS. Placed 10th at NCAAs as a 21yr old (1st place most recently).
Casey Clinger: Elite in HS (4:02 mile in HS). Placed 24th at NCAAs as an 18 year old freshman (13th place most recently).

Those extra two years didn't give them an extra turbo boost. They were already at the top of the sport.


Contrast that with the hurdler you mentioned. Who went from a bottom of the pack runner in the men's division to a national champion in the women's.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

therefore can't help to naturally produce a kid... is he not (100%) man
because he is unable to impregnate naturally? if the percentage is less
than that (100%) what is to be said about that percentage? who is
the final say-so in that or is it merely an opinion? serious questions.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThirstyTintedBrahmancow-small.gif

...therefore it should not matter?

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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

take this for example (male reproductive system):
https://tinyurl.com/yycqt7u8

what happens if there's damage to the erectile tissue, not enough, or none? is
he still considered to be a man? if so, why? who is the final say-so or authority on
who/what someone is? or is it just an opinion?

Does her womanhood get taken away because she can't have kids naturally?

seems like the answer depends on who you ask. it doesn't just boil down
to physical anatomy either. classifications/degreeing levels of what a
prototypical man or woman truly is, does exist. ie. alpha, beta,
personality, culture, caste, religion, etc.

there's no need to talk around it posting articles about athletic competition

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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

There are plenty of people have real good discussions about the topic and you come in here with the nonsense.


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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

like you don't have a history of fanning flames about LGBT issues

I talk about Entertainment, Politics, Money, Stocks, Church, Technology, Sports, Faith, Theology, Human Rights, and Issue related to any topic to include YOU NAME IT. You're the one that stays focused on my post when I discuss Homosexuality issues aka LGBTQA+... Maybe it's your own inner issues playa. But what you can't do is makeup crap about me just to feel good about your own life.


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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

You're the one
>that stays focused on my post when I discuss Homosexuality
>issues aka LGBTQA+... Maybe it's your own inner issues playa.
>But what you can't do is makeup crap about me just to feel
>good about your own life.

Do Wath'ca Like

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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

.

Way too late for that, he ain't even disagree though which is the sad part.


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

There are two sides to be heard, but we must also remember that these are still just kids and remember that these circumstances are complicated.



8th Place: A High School Girl’s Life After Transgender Students Join Her Sport

Kelsey Bolar / @kelseybolar / May 06, 2019 /

https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/05/06/8th-place-high-school-girls-speak-out-on-getting-beat-by-biological-boys/?fbclid=IwAR0Nm1wlY1W9VHQIbYNft_h4Fl7gHGl-S8dY0dHfBolR8BWkR0AF413owxU

When two high school athletes who were born male but identify as female took first and second place at Connecticut’s girls indoor track championship this year, it wasn’t just a local news story.

To some, it was a story of triumph and courage. The winner, a junior from Bloomfield High School, set a girls state indoor record of 6.95 seconds in the 55-meter dash, and went on to win the New England titles in both the 55-meter dash and the 300-meter dash.

To others, it was a story of shock and disappointment: Is this the end of women’s sports?

To Selina Soule, a 16-year-old runner from Glastonbury, it was personal.

The liberal Left continue to push their radical agenda against American values. The good news is there is a solution. Find out more >>

A junior, Selina missed qualifying for the 55-meter in the New England regionals by two spots. Two spots, she said, that were taken by biological boys.

Had the boys who identify as girls not been allowed to compete, Selina would have placed sixth, qualifying to run the 55 in front of college coaches at the New England regionals.

Instead, she placed eighth, watching the 55 from the sidelines after qualifying in only the long jump, an event in which the transgender athletes didn’t compete.

“It’s very frustrating and heartbreaking when us girls are at the start of the race and we already know that these athletes are going to come out and win no matter how hard you try,” Selina told The Daily Signal. “They took away the spots of deserving girls, athletes … me being included.”F

While the debate over transgender athletes and fairness is complex, the situation in Connecticut has brought forth another complicating layer: Plenty of parents and high school girls appear to object to the participation of biological boys in girls sports, but fearing public bullying and backlash, they’re not speaking out.

Publicly, at least.

The stakes of remaining silent are high: Policies are being formed in real time at the local, state, and federal levels regarding transgender individuals, student athletes, and sports.

Most prominently, on March 13, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi introduced HR 5, the Equality Act, a bill that would add “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” as protected classes under federal civil rights law.

The legislation would create a civil right for male athletes to self-identify as females at any time, critics say, without any evidence of physical changes to their bodies.

When the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference, or CIAC, said biological boys who identify as girls can compete as girls in sports, most track athletes remained mum.

Connecticut is one of 17 states that allow transgender high school athletes to compete without restrictions, according to Transathlete.com, a website that tracks state policies in high school sports across the country.

Encouraged by her mother, Bianca Stanescu, who has been in the forefront in challenging the state policy, Selina is one of the few students, if not the only one, giving a voice to countless others who appear to feel the same way.

“Everyone is afraid of retaliation from the media, from the kids around their school, from other athletes, coaches, schools, administrators,” Selina explained. “They don’t want to drag attention to themselves, and they don’t want to be seen as a target for potential bullying and threats.”

In a visit to the Nutmeg State, The Daily Signal spoke with four other track athletes from two high schools in Connecticut. Echoing Selina’s sentiments, they asked to remain anonymous.

“I think it’s a very important thing for people to really understand where we’re coming from, instead of just immediately going to, ‘We’re transphobic,’” one said. “Just the way that our society is built, it snaps on people so quickly.”

“We live in such a cruel world, and society is just so hard to figure out sometimes,” another girl told The Daily Signal. “You never know what the reaction is going to be. It’s so hard because you want your voice to be heard … but, how can you know what to say that will affect things positively, instead of people twisting what you’re saying and turning it against you?”

‘An Equality Issue’

The girls’ parents, too, expressed a high level of concern for protecting their daughters’ identities, not even wanting to identify them by high school.

Connecticut is made up of small towns, the parents explained, and given the relatively small number of athletes affected, people can connect the dots.

“There’s really nothing else you can do except get super frustrated and roll your eyes,” the first girl said, “because it’s really hard to even come out and talk in public just because of the way with the far left, and how just immediately you’ll just be shut down.”

“It’s not like we’re saying that we don’t like transgender people,” she added. “It’s just an equality issue where these girls are trying their absolute hardest to try and get those good things on their college resumes, and then it just gets completely taken away from them because there’s a biological male racing against them.”

The athletes say they don’t fear only being bullied or portrayed as a bigot. They also hope to attend college, and are afraid their politically incorrect views could hurt their prospects.

“I personally want a future in athletics in college,” a third girl told The Daily Signal, “but I feel like if there’s a coach that disagrees with my personal opinion, or a board that disagrees with it, then they’ll already have a predisposition with me and then it’ll affect maybe playing time or my ability to get into that college.”

“We have college down the road—I’m scared that that could get impacted,” a fourth girl said. “Sometimes the coaches will just like look at the lists … and if you’re not No. 1 then they won’t choose you.”

“I have heard opinions where coaches are just going to look at your times, and that they don’t really care where you place,” the first girl added. “But college coaches are going to these bigger meets, and when they don’t see you there, they’re not necessarily focusing on you. They’re focusing on the people that are there.”

“It kept Selina from getting to New Englands, where she had the opportunity to be running in front of college coaches, which is just unfair,” she added.

Uncomfortable Opinions

The athletes’ hesitation to speak out publicly begs the question:

How did society get to the point where high school girls now fear their uncomfortable opinions could prevent them from being admitted to the very institutions where uncomfortable opinions are supposed to be explored?

Whatever the answer, few could blame them, given the vitriol on display in today’s public square.

Business Insider removed a writer’s article defending the casting of Scarlett Johansson to play a transgender man in an upcoming film, for example. The publication said the article violated its “editorial standards,” and the writer later quit.

Authorities in Canada allegedly threatened to arrest a father if he refers to his biological daughter as a female in private or in public because she identifies as a boy.

And in schools, The Daily Signal has documented multiple cases of biological girls being forced to share locker rooms or bathrooms with boys, despite their safety concerns and discomfort.

But again and again, those on the “wrong side” of this conversation are too afraid to speak out.

‘Door Is Open for Any Other Sport’

Selina’s mother, Stanescu, told The Daily Signal that she has done “everything that I thought would be possible to help this and just open a conversation” about what’s happened in Connecticut and what could happen should Congress pass the Equality Act.

“The doors have been shut over and over again,” Stanescu said. “People are afraid to speak.”

In addition to potentially instating a nationwide bathroom requirement, health care mandate, and a “preferred pronoun” law based on gender identity, the Equality Act would enshrine in federal law the right of biological boys to compete as girls in all sports.

If the measure passes, Stanescu warned, “women will be completely eradicated from sports.”

What’s happening in Connecticut, she added, will happen across the country—and not just in track and field.

“Yes, it has been affecting track and field in Connecticut, but the door is open there for any sport, and that is something that could become also a safety issue,” Stanescu said. “It’s taking away the opportunity to win for the girls, but in sports that have physical contact, could become a serious safety issue.”

“It could be potentially very dangerous if you have a transgender female that’s competing in basketball, soccer, lacrosse, field hockey because they are so physically superior to females,” her daughter Selina added.

Selina says all this while making clear she supports athletes “being true to themselves.”

“I have friends in school who are transgender and I know when they are struggling to come out or deciding to come out, I was there supporting them,” she said. “And when they were freshly out, I was caring towards them. I was never rude or disrespectful.”

But the situation in sports has “nothing to do with their gender identity and how they feel,” Selina said. “It has to do with what is right and what is fair in athletics.”

Looking forward to her senior year, Selina said she hopes to run track in college. She referred to the long jump event as her “safe haven” where “the results were fair no matter what, because it was girls competing against girls.”

“But now, unfortunately,” she said with a disappointed look on her face, “one of those athletes has started to compete in long jump. So now none of my events are safe.”






.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

"The liberal Left continue to push their radical agenda against American values."

.
.

"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

or is it a series of documented perceptions?

.
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"I cannot see how nature could have created itself. Only a supernatural force that is outside of space and time could have done that. ~ Francis Collins

"Whatever you do, do it enthusiastically, as something done for the Lord and not for men..."~ Co

And the piece is a collection of conservative families opinions on something.

OMG.

as if track coaches are looking at who won their conference meet in hs. If your times are fast enough and you finished 6 , you'll be recruited, if you win but your times suck, you won't. Track is literally the worst example they could have used.

vs just pushing a viewpoint. this can ring true for left leaning sources as well.

i think there's an honest debate to be had over this, but we're not gonna get it from people only seem to care about sports and biology when there are political/culture wars implications

To me this is where gender testing, testosterone levels, etc should come into play. If you were born a male and transitioned to being female, your genetic and hormonal makeup should have to be consistent with those of a woman before competing against in an athletic event. That just ensures fairness to the competitors who were born as women and verifies the accuracy of your claim to your gender. Remember you're no longer pushing some fluid concept of gender, now you're entering a world with a practical reason for having a binary concept of gender and competing within that world, which also goes to great length to level its playing field.

That said, and this may draw ire from some, I absolutely do not think that such standards should be applied to women who were born women, as we are seeing presently with Caster Semenya and as we may see with other female athletes born with some male traits/hormonal levels. To me that seems vastly unfair because it relegates them to an interstitial position where they basically cannot compete in their sport. Furthermore their genetic reality is not of their doing in any way, shape or form. We couldn't say that LeBron James has more testosterone than John Stockton, so now LeBron has to play in some other league or Stockton has to go to the WNBA. It just seems crazy to me that someone born a woman could be subjected to that level of scrutiny and humiliation. It doesn't seem pleasant or totally fair that a transgender person would be, but it seems like a necessary safeguard to protect the fairness and equitable division of competition.

I actually watched that trans fighter fight a woman in MMA and it was awful to watch. Sure, I know that this person has transitioned to a woman but--in that octagon--it sure didn't look that way. The fight was ugly to watch and the trans woman had way more in her favor in height, reach, power, and speed. Sure, someone could argue that the other woman just wasn't a good match for her. But in many sports, mainly combat sports, that mismatch can be deadly.

I don't say that to discriminate against trans people. But there's a definite advantage present and I don't think it's unfair or even mean to acknowledge that.


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& western civilization in general, by all means Juwanna Mann.



Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

so-called straight Black men thinking this is cool.



Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

Cause this place is bizzaro world when it comes to these types of topics.

>


Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg
http://Tupreme.com

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“It was the evidence from science and history that prompted me to abandon my atheism and become a Christian.” — Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

Transgender woman who last year competed as a man wins NCAA track championship


https://triblive.com/sports/biological-male-wins-ncaa-womens-track-championship/?fbclid=IwAR3at2au2KFYEGh6omRf0sUPmphOUgWwn2UZG4sJWou2DVR8nikJ9u7LYnc

A transgender woman who competed as a man as recently as last year won an NCAA women’s track national championship on Saturday.

Franklin Pierce University senior Cece Telfer beat the eight-woman field in the Division II women’s 400-meter hurdles by more than a second, with a personal collegiate-best time of 57.53.

According to a release by the school, Telfer “took the lead heading down the back stretch and held it the rest of the way, pulling away from the field in the final turn and down the home stretch.”

“It was tough conditions out here with the wind and the heat over the last three days but, as she has over the last six months, CeCe proved herself to be tough enough to handle it,” head coach Zach Emerson said of her performance. “Today was a microcosm of her entire season; she was not going to let anything slow her down. I’ve never met anybody as strong as her mentally in my entire life.”

As recently as January 2018, Telfer had been competing as an athlete for Franklin Pierce men’s team as Craig. Telfer finished eighth in a field of nine in the Men’s 400 meters at the Middlebury Winter Classic in Vermont.

The NCAA allows male athletes to compete as women if they suppress their testosterone levels for a full calendar year. Before that, they compete on mixed teams — with men and women — in the men’s division but not the women’s.

According the NCAA’s Transgender Handbook, “According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence.”

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“It was the evidence from science and history that prompted me to abandon my atheism and become a Christian.” — Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

https://www.outsports.com/2019/3/10/18257930/ncaa-cece-telfer-trans-woman-athlete-track-field

The LGBTQ supportive outsports ran an original story with the headline that she doesn't win every competition to make the point that there is no inherent advantage, but then had to update the article when she... won.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

because there is a clear advantage.
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“It was the evidence from science and history that prompted me to abandon my atheism and become a Christian.” — Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

I don't know what she ran before transitioning but there isn't some Juwana man style advantage in this instance...

https://www.letsrun.com/news/2019/05/what-no-one-is-telling-you-an-athlete-who-ran-ncaa-track-as-a-man-for-3-years-just-won-an-ncaa-womens-title/

Prior to joining the women’s team this season, Telfer was a mediocre DII athlete who never came close to making it to nationals in the men’s category. In 2016 and 2017, Telfer ranked 200th and 390th, respectively, among DII men in the 400 hurdles (Telfer didn’t run outdoor track in 2018 as either a man or woman). Now she’s the national champion in the event simply because she switched her gender (Telfer’s coach told us that even though she competed on the men’s team her first three years, her gender fluidity was present from her freshman year).

The fact that Telfer can change her gender and immediately become a national champion is proof positive as to why women’s sports needs protection. Telfer ran slightly faster in the 400 hurdles competing as a man (57.34) than as a woman (57.53), even though the men’s hurdles are six inches taller than the women’s hurdles. Yet when Telfer ran 57.34 as a man, she didn’t even score at her conference meet — she was just 10th at the Northeast-10 Outdoor Track and Field Championships in 2016. Now she’s the national champion.

Lmao.

Like this person.

https://twitter.com/DownBrah/status/1133836952137064449


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

She's been a woman her whole life. This thread isn't about her.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

.
.

“It was the evidence from science and history that prompted me to abandon my atheism and become a Christian.” — Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ

The CAS ruling, which was pretty clearly targeting her (and Wambui and Nyansaba, to a lesser degree) only applies to 400-1500m races. I loved watching her run the 800m so it's a bummer that this has happened, but I rather love that her "fuck you" stance is so strong she's willing to move up. 3000m flat isn't an Olympic or WC event, so I guess she'll have to decide if she wants to learn to hurdle at 3000m, which isn't really much of an issue for Kenyan steeplers, who consistently look like they've never gone over barriers before, or move all the way to 5000m.

Until then, 3000m at the Prefontaine Classic on June 30th.

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/new-zealand-names-transgender-athlete-hubbard-womens-tokyo-olympics-2021-06-20/

WELLINGTON, June 21 (Reuters) - Weightlifter Laurel Hubbard will become the first transgender athlete to compete at the Olympics after being selected by New Zealand for the women's event at the Tokyo Games, a decision set to reignite a debate over inclusion and fairness in sport.

Hubbard will compete in the super-heavyweight 87+kg category, her selection made possible by an update to qualifying requirements in May. read more

The 43-year-old, who will be the oldest lifter at the Games, had competed in men's weightlifting competitions before transitioning in 2013.


NZOC chief Kereyn Smith said it was an "historic moment in sport and for the New Zealand team."
"She is our first Olympian who has transitioned from male to female," she told reporters.

Hubbard has been eligible to compete at Olympics since 2015, when the International Olympic Committee (IOC) issued guidelines allowing any transgender athlete to compete as a woman provided their testosterone levels are below 10 nanomoles per litre for at least 12 months before their first competition.

Some scientists have said the guidelines do little to mitigate the biological advantages of those who have gone through puberty as males.

Advocates for transgender inclusion argue the process of transition decreases that advantage considerably, and that physical differences between athletes mean there is never truly a level playing field.

The New Zealand government gave its support.

"We are proud of her as we are of all our athletes, and will be supporting her all the way," Sports Minister Grant Robertson said.

Weightlifting has been at the centre of the debate over the fairness of transgender athletes competing against women, and Hubbard's presence in Tokyo could prove divisive.

Save Women's Sport Australasia, a group opposed to transgender women competing in women's sports, said Hubbard's selection was allowed by "flawed policy from the IOC".

"Males do have a performance advantage that is based on their biological sex," the group's co-founder Katherine Deves told Reuters TV.

"They outperform us on every single metric - speed, stamina, strength. Picking testosterone is a red herring ... We are forgetting about the anatomy, the fast, rich muscle, the bigger organs."

The IOC has consistently said it is committed to inclusion but the organisation is also reviewing its guidelines to take into account the "perceived tension between fairness/safety and inclusion/non-discrimination". read more

Hubbard's gold medal wins at the 2019 Pacific Games in Samoa, where she topped the podium ahead of Samoa's Commonwealth Games champion Feagaiga Stowers, triggered outrage in the host nation.

Samoa's weightlifting boss said Hubbard's selection for Tokyo would be like letting athletes dope and feared it could cost the small Pacific nation a medal. read more

Belgian weightlifter Anna Vanbellinghen said last month allowing Hubbard to compete at Tokyo was unfair for women and "like a bad joke". read more

Former New Zealand weightlifter Tracey Lambrechs said she had to make way in the super-heavyweight category at the Commonwealth Games for Hubbard.

"When I was told to drop the category because Laurel was obviously going to be their number one super, it was heartbreaking, like super soul-destroying," the Olympian told TVNZ.

"And it's unfortunate that some female, somewhere is like, 'Well I'm going to miss out on going to the Olympics, on achieving my dream, representing my country because a transgendered athlete is able to compete."

Hubbard, who injured herself during competition at the Commonwealth Games and thought her career was over, thanked New Zealanders.

"Your support, your encouragement, and your aroha (love)carried me through the darkness," she said.

Another transgender athlete, BMX rider Chelsea Wolfe, will travel to Tokyo as part of the United States team, but is named as an alternate and not assured of competing.

Li Wenwen

wil be dominated by older transgendered athletes

you still won't give a fuck and will say easily disproved things

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

...same as abortion and any other issues when it comes to the female body

and I think it should be the women who actually participate or have participated in sports.

.

i mean i'll plead my own phobia or whatever you want to call it.

i *want* to just say yes, they are women, period. and i have no problem calling someone by their preferred pronouns, but inside I'm still kinda like, yeah, sort of.

just kinda wondering if they are included in saying women should decide

>i mean i'll plead my own phobia or whatever you want to call
>it.
>
>i *want* to just say yes, they are women, period. and i have
>no problem calling someone by their preferred pronouns, but
>inside I'm still kinda like, yeah, sort of.

>just kinda wondering if they are included in saying women
>should decide


Great point.. I think their voices should be heard, but ultimately should probably be up to women who were born women to decide.. but definitely not men.

with birth certificates?

genetic test?

eye test?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>with birth certificates?


Sure

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

today that he wants to be called she be admitted into the girls games? No shade either, just curious...this is a complex issue (imo) and i havent been back thru the whole thread.

and if it isn't, why pretend it is?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I feel like most of the people who bring up a hypothetical like this don't know what the rules that already exist are

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

If you're against it.

Lets say...we just kick those fuckin' gates open

what happens next?

>If you're against it.
>
>Lets say...we just kick those fuckin' gates open
>
>what happens next?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

decides that he wants to identify as a woman and/or transitions should he then be allowed into the WNBA with his physical dominance over most naturally born female athletes?

with two shots.

how many do you need to acknowledge that it's not a real issue and it's a weird thing to imagine since it's not a real issue?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

really, there's nothing worse?

what's the second worse case?

it's just some shit you imagined because you're afraid of addressing gay people and you know why that is

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

in the US, it would pretty much undo title ix

you lying shits don't give a fuck about title ix

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

The voter fraud measures are going to hurt alot of well meaning people while cynically trying to address the *potential* of people abusing the existing rules.

I think as long as you require transgendered female athletes to be far along the gender re-assignment process, you won't have boys/men casually identifying as girls/women for athletic glory (I question how many boys/men would do it if there were absolutely NO requirements)

and sponsorships, etc.

falls apart if you think about it for even a moment of a moment

if one of your bros comes home five years later with a wnba trophy, you're not going to put that person at the level of respect that makes the sacrifice worth it

ALSO assuming they're that good, they probably could've made more money playing pro ball in a men's league overseas, because again, this isn't a real option.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

if there are no biological requirements to participate in women's sports, you absolutely will see a ton of dudes flooding to get trophies/scholarships/paydays.

There's a 43 year old mediocre male athlete that is competing in the *Olympics* as a woman.


Never mind the fact that it's absolutely insane this is even a question. There is no sound logical argument *for* the inclusion of trans athletes in same sex sports.

you're just mad that you're a loser and everyone knows it


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>
>Never mind the fact that it's absolutely insane this is even a
>question. There is no sound logical argument *for* the
>inclusion of trans athletes in same sex sports.

Hair, fat composition and location, bone density, strength, aggression… they are all affected by the hormones someone would take to maintain their transition.

If their hormone levels are within natural levels for their assigned gender, they shouldn’t have an unnatural advantage cis women and should have the same opportunities to participate in sports.

Yes, bone length and size aren’t impacted but being tall isn’t an overwhelming advantage in every sport.

you have developed and trained with a much higher biological threshold than an adult female.
That's just biology.
Hormone therapy affects FURTHER development.
But dude the musculature of men is different than women, structurally.


Dude qualified at FORTY THREE to be an olympic-level weightlifter for women...median age is like 26 or 27, lol

It's total bullshit.
Outright nonsense.

as a woman.

She set a record for her weight class as a 20 yr old man with a 300 kg total back in 1998. She then stopped training in 2001, transitioned to a woman in 2012 and started competing again in 2017.

Now she's worked her way back up to 285 kg. So yes, the transitioning didn't drastically reduce her strength but the top 3 results from her last international competition were beyond her best as a 20 yr old man. So she's likely not going to deprive a cis gendered woman of a medal unless some of the favorites flame out.

And she is old for a competitor but I think that's more because who wants to be poor weightlifter in their 30's? It doesn't really pay to compete into that age but more people probably could since age related muscle loss doesn't really pick up in people that remain active until their 50's.

Anyway, I think the narrative around her is unfair and is people projecting some cynical beliefs about transgendered men and women. If you look at her backstory, she used weightlifting to fight her gender dysphoria. Now she appears to be doing it for the fun of it.

Plus we're talking about weightlifting, which is up there with cycling, track and horse racing in terms of doping so what's really natural anyway?

Cuz it's kind of proving my point. All over the place.

2) You said there will be a ton of dudes who choose to identify as women in a narcissistic attempt to get trophies/scholarships/paydays if a biological requirement to participate in women's sports.

I paraphrased your statement but I think this a fair summary.

You used Laurel Hubbard as your example.

Response to 1) She was a record setting, elite male athlete at 20 years old (past puberty). She would likely still have been an elite male weightlifter if she continued in the sport before transitioning to a female.

Response to 2) She is now a successful female weightlifter that likely will not be getting an Olympic medal. She has one lesser tournaments but all accounts say she is very private and otherwise avoids publicity and fame.

So far, there isn't much evidence of average Joes transitioning into incredible Joe-anna's for fame and glory.

What you usually have is athletes wanting to continue to compete despite their gender identity issues.

I kind of understand the emotion behind setting some standards to prevent men from casually identifying as women for some sort of gain but I waver on whether it's really necessary since I don't think it's a likely threat.

I mean, how often is it more glamorous and lucrative to be an elite female athlete than a mediocre male athlete? Tennis might be the only sport.

Ok so he's *wasnt* a mediocre male athlete. He *is* a washed up one.

Dude stopped competing with men almost a decade ago, decided to be a woman and is magically at the top of the women's sport in his 40s, well past the age of retirement for most male and female olympic level athletes in hid sport.

he wouldn't be able to compete AT ALL with men's olympic level weightlifters in his country.

But he can with the women.

BECAUSE, (especially) post puberty, men have a completely different phsyiology than women. And no amoount of hormone therapy will negate those physiological advantages. And in a sport like weightlifting? You are on crack if you don't think they matter a whole lot.

So yeah, he was never an olympian as a male in his prime. But he's an olympian as a 40+ year old woman.

A mediocre male at the top of the sport as a "woman". Cuz he feels like it.
That's pretty damn narcissistic...and sexist/misogynistic as fuck to boot.

>>That's pretty damn narcissistic...and sexist/misogynistic as fuck to boot.

Real funny how this issue suddenly turns people into feminists.

I'm not a feminist

But if men, on a whim, redefining womanhood, *solely* for their benefit - cuz nobody can tell me how this shit benefits women, AT ALL - ain't misogynistic, then nothing is.

Y'all goofball asses just repeat talking points without thinking them thru

you're a loser

>I'm not a feminist
>
>But if men, on a whim, redefining womanhood, *solely* for
>their benefit - cuz nobody can tell me how this shit benefits
>women, AT ALL - ain't misogynistic, then nothing is.
>
>Y'all goofball asses just repeat talking points without
>thinking them thru
>
>


Most these wackos (not necessarily you) who are arguing against trans women don't even believe in Trans women and their right to exist in the first place.

I agree that white people are sociopaths, but there is no large evidence of men or boys "switching" to compete. Part of it is because it goes against the whole ideology of masculinity in the world and the US.

Becoming a trans woman isnt as easy as just checking off some box. There is a lot to go through that most people in their right mind WILL NOT be willing to do just to win some medal in youth league or HS.

Again Fallon Fox would get Smoked by Amanda Nunes.

I'm talking about transwomen *athletes*
I'm not even making the argument that they are switching expressly to compete.


i'm saying you have the right to call yourself whatever you like.
You DO NOT have the right to crash pre-existinig /environments/spaces/social roles for other demographics because you *feel like it*.
That almost the definition of sociopathy.
It's just asshole behavior in a lot of ways.

If they were really dedicated to competition for real, they'd spend way more time lobbying for trans athletics. Especially considering that most trans folks in the West are upper middle class white males.

>I'm talking about transwomen *athletes*
>I'm not even making the argument that they are switching
>expressly to compete.
>
>
>i'm saying you have the right to call yourself whatever you
>like.
>You DO NOT have the right to crash pre-existinig
>/environments/spaces/social roles for other demographics
>because you *feel like it*.
>That almost the definition of sociopathy.
>It's just asshole behavior in a lot of ways.
>
>If they were really dedicated to competition for real, they'd
>spend way more time lobbying for trans athletics. Especially
>considering that most trans folks in the West are upper middle
>class white males.


When white women and white people start calling out black women (who they already see as more masculine). See any publick thread about Serena and Simon Biles....hell even beyonce...

should speak on this.

because women only exist if you have full control over them

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>because women only exist if you have full control over them

no because some people like to flip flop on how they feel about women based on which side of the argument they want to be on

because it ain't about protecting your daughter or anyone else's.

if it were, you'd give a shit about dozens of things you don't give a fuck about.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>because it ain't about protecting your daughter or anyone
>else's.
>
>if it were, you'd give a shit about dozens of things you don't
>give a fuck about.


that's why I said ask people who have daughters to take my opinion out of it but you're still trying to tie this post 15-20 year old fabrications in your head.

that's great.

but it's not because you don't have a daughter.


it's because you think that people who have full control over women should be making the decisions. I'm not wrong about you

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_69TQPNIac

which is why I’m glad the IAAF made their ruling. Your sexual preference has
nothing to do with the nature of athletic sports.



XX chromosomes compete against XX chromosomes

XY chromosomes compete against XY chromosomes.

That way all identities are wiped off the table, and the focus
is on the complete chemistry of the human body.

It’s crazy how women have to fight for equal pay and equal opportunities,
but now they have to fight in regards to natural selection?

Semenya was given the option to either take inhibitors, race against men,
or not race at all....The inhibitors would have put her on the same chemistry
level as as the women, but she didn’t want to do that.

>which is why I’m glad the IAAF made their ruling. Your
>sexual preference has
>nothing to do with the nature of athletic sports.

Did you mean gender identity here?

>
>XX chromosomes compete against XX chromosomes
>
>XY chromosomes compete against XY chromosomes.
>
>That way all identities are wiped off the table, and the
>focus
>is on the complete chemistry of the human body.
>
>It’s crazy how women have to fight for equal pay and equal
>opportunities,
>but now they have to fight in regards to natural selection?
>
>Semenya was given the option to either take inhibitors, race
>against men,
>or not race at all....The inhibitors would have put her on the
>same chemistry
>level as as the women, but she didn’t want to do that.


Semenya's situation is a little different from that of transgendered m/f athletes in that she didn't choose her gender, it was chosen for her as a child. Now a bureaucratic body is saying that she should suppress her natural gifts in order to compete in a gender she didn't choose and can't undo at this point. I think they're over litigating this because her situation is an edge case that will likely be rarely repeated.

Her chemical makeup gives here an advantage, and notice that as an intersex
she didn’t choose the male option.

She was also given the option to compete at a higher distance as a woman, where
testosterone and muscles are not a huge factor.

Anyway, she was defined by scientist as being a BIOLOGICAL MALE, which is
why IAAF ruled against her. And all of it was based on her biological chemicals.

She's effectively being punished for the choice made for her, by her doctors and parents as a child. She can't just choose to be male at this point.

And the options she was given compound the problem by asking her to either suppress her abilities through "anti-doping" or running her sub-optimal events.

And you're not hurting 1000's by letting her run, at most your hurting 2nd, 3rd and 4th place who might medal or medal higher if she doesn't participate.

The advantage is astronomical. She produces three times the amount of
testosterone that the average woman produces.

It’s a tough decision, because it isn’t her fault. However, it’s the right
decision to maintain the performance equality of the sport.

The whole will always be greater than the sum of its parts.

https://www.insider.com/simone-biles-scoring-disadvantage-because-way-ahead-facebook-watch-series-2021-6

The only thing consistent about these type of rulings to level the playing field its always seems to punish black women.


There was none of this talk to make the playing field more leveled because of Michael Phelps natural advantages.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Biles is in an event where humans can use their personal bias to influence the outcome.

and I have no idea how any of this is the “same” as his argument about chromosomes

break it down for me please?

swimmer.

There could have been a huge debate about whether its fair to let him compete but there was no talk about an unfair natural advantage. Simone Biles and Castera do have those debates pop up. I am saying its not random.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

and how that could technically advantage some teams over others, or affect recruiting, in sports like basketball eg.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/apr/06/too-tall-for-basketball-american-player-exceeds-korean-league-height-limit

It's all very shady to me

However, she competes against other black women, so what about
their right to a fair race? ( i’m referring to Semenya)

You don’t sacrifice 1000 people for 1 person, you sacrifice 1 person
for 1000 people.....considering the circumstances.

Any first year biology course will talk about how chromosomes, hormones, secondary sex characteristics, etc can align to phenotypically mimic one sex, but genetically present as another.

A woman can still be a woman and have a Y chromosome. A man can still be a man and have two XX chromosomes.

You have got to get past the antiquated notion of a 2 gender binary and come into the future.

Those cases are not the normal development of a man or a woman.
Those biological occurrences happen 1 out of 15,000 births.

Semenya is an example of that unfortunate irregularity.

And If the person has a Y chromosome, then that person will not
have a uterus.


The NORMAL biologically development of a man and woman is binary.

What does that even mean? Syndrome vs constant?

Those biological occurrences are normal, and I've read they affect btw 1.7% and 2% of the population, a not insignificant portion of the populace. And that's what it comes down, the normality of these differences. Because they are normal, they do occur in millions of people, and just because you or other racist/sexist people don't want to acknowledge them doesn't mean they don't exist. (A seemingly good explanation about the sex spectrum, though I haven't watched the whole thing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT0HJkr1jj4)

And btw, a person with a Y chromosome can have an uterus (https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condition/swyer-syndrome/), but functionality will be limited. According to your statement, anybody that's had a hysterectomy isn't female cause they don't have an uterus, a statement that obviously isn't true. More proof that simple explanations aren't sufficient to explain complex issues.

Ultimately, we don't have to abide by the basic, uninformed metrics of past years. Sex isn't binary, trans woman should be allowed to compete, and through careful study and discussion we can have society that includes and welcomes everybody.

Sex isn’t binary, but REGULAR births are.

And your percentages are incorrect, and even those percentages prove that
those are irregular biological occurrences. Between 0.05% and 1.7% of the
population is born with intersex traits....as little as 5 tenths of a percent!

And again those births are considered abnormalities or disorders. Semenya’s
biological existence is a hormone disorder called hyperandrogenism , and a lot
of intersex births require corrective surgeries, because genitals develop
in the wrong part of the body( like having testicles in the stomach).

Those are not regular or normal births no matter how you spew it.

Also the comment regarding the uterus is spot on, and I wasn’t referring
to women who had hysterectomies, because those are XX women. I was referring
to people born with a Y chromosome... In a NORMAL BIRTH, that person doesn’t
have a uterus, and 98 percent of the population is proof of that.

It’s funny how people who are born with mental disorders, or mental irregularities,
have to take medicine or are placed in special classes or groups in society, however,
when it comes to people born with reproductive organ irregularities, and the same
practice is applied to keep things fair and safe, it’s wrong.

Trans women or intersex XY should not be allowed to compete against normal
women in any physical sports competition. Back in 2014, a trans woman was
allowed to fight a normal woman in a MMA fight. The normal woman suffered
a skull fracture in less than 2 minutes! A trans woman is not a biological woman
and neither is a XY intersex.

Imagine a trans woman with 4-5 times the amount of testosterone boxing against
a regular woman ..you’re a monster if you would want that.

I refuse to lack humanity and will continue to protect the existence and rights of
natural women.

Sex has never been strictly binary in nature. It's more like a spectrum, best envisioned like a histogram as opposed to a venn diagram. The problem is how sex has been classified, not the people in question. They're just human beings like anybody else.

IN ADDITION, what if your same attitude was used to justify excluding athletes on the basis of "race" (our other fave system of biologically arbitrary categorization), due to differences in levels of sex steroid hormones?

For example, in this meta-analysis(of 15 studies), https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327897/ , Black men had higher free testosterone levels than White men. And in this study, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16172224/, the Asian and Black women had higher levels of estradiol (an estrogen) and a growth factor hormone (IGF) compared to the White women in the sample, and lower levels of SHBG (a protein that adjusts the bioavailability of sex hormones in the bloodstream). And in THIS study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19696765/), testosterone levels between women varied significantly depending on MENSTRUAL REGULARITY (assessed in pre-, peri-, and post-menopausal groups) and visceral body fat(even independent of %total body fat).

^How long until some racist nutjobs start (if they haven't already) pushing to exclude Black men from the Olympics and other high-stakes sports competitions because of "unfair advantage" due to higher average testosterone levels? And if they succeeded, would you all support that as fervently as you support excluding athletes like Semenya for "elevated testosterone"? Furthermore, the dearth of research in this area as it pertains to women, our biology, and our athletic performance illustrates how arbitrary it was for regulators to conclude Semenya's testosterone levels were "elevated" and in "male range" in the first place, because there isn't reliable ground truth as to what even constitutes a standard testosterone range for people who are not men.

For example, "normal" testosterone ranges allegedly range between 280 and 1,100 ng/dL for adult men and between 15 and 70 ng/dL for adult women (https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-testosterone#testing). This "accepted" testosterone range for men is nearly 15X broader than the "accepted" range for women (likely because there's simply been more research on testosterone in men). Because of Semenya, regulators went and set (https://www.worldathletics.org/news/press-release/eligibility-regulations-for-female-classifica) an arbitrary cutoff of 5nmol/L (approx. 144 ng/dL according to this conversion calculator https://balancemyhormones.co.uk/testosterone-units-conversion-tool/) for athletes to compete as women - above which they'd be considered "male range" - despite 144 ng/dL being WELL BELOW what is accepted as a low end testosterone level for adult men.

Regulators demanding certain athletes suppress their testosterone level to below such an arbitraty cutoff is particularly concerning considering the disparity in research on testosterone in men v. other sex and gender identities. I mean, consider a finding like from the study I link above about the significant influence of a factor like menstrual cycle regularity. Menstruation alone opens up a whole other can of worms with respect to how certain athletes' levels could be compromised by things like test timing, birth control, underlying conditions (eg. PCOS, eating disorders, endometriosis, certain hyperplasias), treatments for said conditions (eg. partial or full hysterectomies), and so on. COMMON ASS SHIT that a large number of people deal with in one way or another, whether cis or trans or intersex or whatever. So when people talk about pRoTeCt WoMeN's SpOrTs, I want to ask how "protected" have women in sports even been until now? How much have womens' issues factored into regulators' thinking and processes before they decide to destroy careers over minor biochemical discrepancies, for which the underlying science isn't even conclusive?

Clearly transgendered, "intersex", and other sexual and gender minority people are capable of excelling at various sports(bc why wouldn't they?). So in my view, it isn't ethical to exclude them just for having karyotypes, genotypes, and phenotypes that are also prevalent in otherwise cis-apparent people (but for which cis-apparent people aren't being banned).

Personally, I think a few ways to move forward are to either:

1. Acknowledge how invalid this sex binary bullshit truly is (seriously tho - what kind of classification system excludes all but the 2 tallest bars of a histogram?) and LOOSEN THE BOUNDARIES of "man" and "woman" so that sexual and gender minorities more comfortable presenting, identifying, living as either one can participate in competitive sports and demonstrate the full potential of human excellence;

or

2. DO AWAY with sex segregation in sports altogether. What about using gender neutral variables to construct categories instead? (eg. maybe a composite score could be calculated from variables like athletes' age, height, weight, body comp/percent lean mass, etc, afterwhich they can map to some sort of adjusted weight class?). This way, sure... some categories might have more (cis, trans, intersex, etc) men competing while others have more (cis, trans, intersex, etc) women competing and vice versa just bc they're more likely to be built like that, but what's appealing is at least such categories might more accurately reflect of the full range of human capability.

Because that's what #2 would do. In your aim to be fair and inclusive, you would have designed a system that is extremely restrictive.

All this would do is create more categories for men to compete in. Kind of like boxing. You would have tall/fat swimming, short/lean swimming, old/short/fat swimming. And each would be male dominated.

Look at weightlifting for example. That's the only sport I can think of right now that has weight classes and easily comparable stats.

The men's world record in the lightest weight class (121 pounds) is 676 pounds.
The WR in the closest women's class (128 pounds) is 555 pounds.
If you bump up the women's weight class up to 198 pounds, the WR (624 pounds) is still not up to the lightest men.

No matter how you chop up your "gender neutral variables", it is going to be biased towards men.
If you make categorical cuts based on physical attributes like you describe, it's clear men will dominate each category. Very few women would be able to participate.



>
>2. DO AWAY with sex segregation in sports altogether. What
>about using gender neutral variables to construct categories
>instead? (eg. maybe a composite score could be calculated from
>variables like athletes' age, height, weight, body
>comp/percent lean mass, etc, afterwhich they can map to some
>sort of adjusted weight class?). This way, sure... some
>categories might have more (cis, trans, intersex, etc) men
>competing while others have more (cis, trans, intersex, etc)
>women competing and vice versa just bc they're more likely to
>be built like that, but what's appealing is at least such
>categories might more accurately reflect of the full range of
>human capability.

By creating categories ALL sexes and gender identities are welcome to compete in (and tbh remain in, even if an athlete's gender identity changes during their athletic career).

I guess I don't share your assumption that men competing against peers (of any sex) matched on similar physical + physiological variables (especially something like percent lean mass) would always and only win.

We have capabilities to compute more sophisiticated scores and categories than what's used currently in boxing, weightlifiting etc, so I'm not sure how you arrived at groupings like tall/fat, short/lean, old/short/fat etc. I'm talking about composite numerical scores, generated by algorithms rigorously designed and tested to death with anthropometric and past performance data (which there should be plenty of, given all that athletes are required to track and submit to compete, no?).

I mean, it's just a general direction I think makes sense. Besides, as you quote I already said I bet (cis, trans, intersex) men would account for the majority of competitors in some adjusted weight classes while (cis, trans, intersex, etc) women would account for the majority of competitors in other adjusted weight classes. I just see it as a good thing, not a bad thing *shrug*

For example, a 100m for the lowest flyweight-like class could comprise mostly cis-women, a couple of trans-men, and an intersex woman; and the same race for the most brolic adjusted weight class could comprise of mostly cis-men, a trans-woman, and a couple intersex men. The competitors in each adjusted weight class have similar physical and performance data, and nobody who qualifies could be banned on the basis of their sex or gender identity ever again. What would be so wrong with that?

And who knows, maybe intersex women are actually the fastest humans on the planet?? Maybe their unique combination of features lends them advantageous features commonly observed in BOTH XX and XY people? I would find that cool AF and would want to watch them race. In fact, I'm telling you as a woman that I would find it infinitely more satisfying to watch ANY female athlete emerge as the fastest/strongest/most skilled in her class by defeating competitors of all sexes and gender.

So if YOU believe such a thing is impossible, perhaps interrogate your internalized sexism. Because just like Double Negative beautifully articulated, there's so much we don't know about our own species in large part because the "limits" we see (or assume to be true) are "limits" WE ourselves have imposed on each other. This sex-segregation stuff is just some bullshit tradition from Ancient Greece anyway lol (http://faculty.elmira.edu/dmaluso/sports/greece/greecewomen.html), not scientific. There's no imperative whatsoever to cling to their approach all these thousands of years later as if it had some meaningful basis, it was just patriarchy.

>
>I guess I don't share your assumption that men competing
>against peers (of any sex) matched on similar physical +
>physiological variables (especially something like percent
>lean mass) would always and only win.
>

You got anything to support your assumption?
My assumption is based on observation. I put up weightlifting as an example showing smaller men lift more than much bigger women. What physiological variables would you make to create an even playing field between men and women here? What kinds of factors would go into these algorithms?



>
>For example, a 100m for the lowest flyweight-like class could
>comprise mostly cis-women, a couple of trans-men, and an
>intersex woman; and the same race for the most brolic adjusted
>weight class could comprise of mostly cis-men, a trans-woman,
>and a couple intersex men. The competitors in each adjusted
>weight class have similar physical and performance data, and
>nobody who qualifies could be banned on the basis of their sex
>or gender identity ever again. What would be so wrong with
>that?


I disagree. I think this lowest flyweight-like class would be dominated by flyweight cis-men, not cis-women. As evidenced by the weightlifting example.

I'm confused by what you call similar "performance data". If it's what I think (i.e. everyone who typically lifts this much will be in that group), then it pretty much eliminates a big competitive aspect of elite level sports. That is, to be the best. Not the best among people similar to my skill range.


>
>And who knows, maybe intersex women are actually the fastest
>humans on the planet?? Maybe their unique combination of
>features lends them advantageous features commonly observed in
>BOTH XX and XY people? I would find that cool AF and would
>want to watch them race. In fact, I'm telling you as a woman
>that I would find it infinitely more satisfying to watch ANY
>female athlete emerge as the fastest/strongest/most skilled in
>her class by defeating competitors of all sexes and gender.
>
>So if YOU believe such a thing is impossible, perhaps
>interrogate your internalized sexism. Because just like Double
>Negative beautifully articulated, there's so much we don't
>know about our own species in large part because the "limits"
>we see (or assume to be true) are "limits" WE ourselves have
>imposed on each other. This sex-segregation stuff is just some
>bullshit tradition from Ancient Greece anyway lol
>(http://faculty.elmira.edu/dmaluso/sports/greece/greecewomen.html),
>not scientific. There's no imperative whatsoever to cling to
>their approach all these thousands of years later as if it had
>some meaningful basis, it was just patriarchy.
>


Here, you are talking about what you believe and what might be. Not, what actually "is".
I would have loved to have seen a woman at the US Track and Field championships last night outperform one of the men. I would have flipped out in joy and amazement. But it didn't happen. And it hasn't happened.
And not because of self imposed limitations we put on ourselves. But because of physical limitations.


Whatever you are proposing here would effectively exclude women from sports. And that is not good.

When the only people seen, included, invested in, etc belong to one group (or I guess in this case 2 groups - XX and XY cis people), of course it's easy to believe their apparent "superiority" is just "reality". Doesn't mean it's correct.


>
>You got anything to support your assumption?
>My assumption is based on observation. I put up weightlifting
>as an example showing smaller men lift more than much bigger
>women. What physiological variables would you make to create
>an even playing field between men and women here? What kinds
>of factors would go into these algorithms?
>


I said I don't share your assumption. Besides, any observation you're using as "proof" that cis men are the fastest/strongest/most skilled people of the human species is based on a model that's systematically excluded (+ trying to further exclude) people from other sex and gender groups for literally thousands of years. So it's selection-biased nonsense that isn't "proof" of anything. When there's actual equal opportunity to qualify and compete in sports events like the Olympics and cis men deliver on your assumption against ANY AND ALL other humans who compete in the same events, then let's talk. Until then, yall are just dominating a system largely set up by and for you.

Re: feature selection for the algorithms... *shrug* I'm just suggesting a general direction that makes sense to me, I don't have code and data on standby or anything lol. I doubt I'm the first to suggest sex and gender neutrality in sports either, and I'm sure a ton of simulations are needed before any design aspects became clear. But just to reiterate: the overall point of my suggestion isn't necessarily to even the playing field between men and women in sports (and I'm sure, off the track, there are many additional disparities to address for that purpose). It's to eliminate the use of sex and gender identity (and denying regulators the power to define them) altogether as a framework to organize competitive sports.


>
>I'm confused by what you call similar "performance data". If
>it's what I think (i.e. everyone who typically lifts this much
>will be in that group), then it pretty much eliminates a big
>competitive aspect of elite level sports. That is, to be the
>best. Not the best among people similar to my skill range.
>


I disagree that incorporating performance data to map athletes to appropriate adjusted weight classes would eliminate competition. Do athletes not compete in qualifying competitions already? "Finals" are essentially competitions between a narrowed field of the fastest/strongest/most skilled athletes for a particular group, no?

I think incorporating (and possibly weighting?) past performance data, in addition to relevant anthropometric attributes, might make sense because it could help deal with anomalous folks (eg. somebody small/light/not ripped who defies the speed, strength, or skill one might expect based on their physique). Meaning, perhaps integrity of the adjusted weight classes could be maintained by only allowing people to *outperform* competitors classed similarly to them physically, not underperform. That way, someone (regardless of sex or gender) might be able to bump *up* into a more brolic weight class off the strength of their past performance data, but a waning brolic athlete (regardless of sex or gender) couldn't fail *down* to compete against smaller/less brolic competitors as their performance numbers drop. This might have excluded an athlete like Hubbard, for example - but NOT because of her gender transition.


>
>Here, you are talking about what you believe and what might
>be. Not, what actually "is".

Well, like I said... when part of a population is systematically ignored, excluded, and divested from, it doesn't give an accurate depiction of "reality" because of selection bias.

I mean, how quickly are we going to forget all the activities Black people weren't allowed to participate in, including professional sports, because of assumed deficits? Those alleged "deficits" were presented as natural givens to "just accept" too. Recall Hitler's desire to use the '36 Olympics as an opportunity to showcase "Master Race" i.e. White superiority, before Jesse Owens and other Black athletes promptly dispelled that fuckshit by simply participating (instead of boycotting as they were under significant pressure to do - https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-nazi-olympics-berlin-1936-african-american-voices-and-jim-crow-america).


>I would have loved to have seen a woman at the US Track and
>Field championships last night outperform one of the men. I
>would have flipped out in joy and amazement. But it didn't
>happen. And it hasn't happened.
>And not because of self imposed limitations we put on
>ourselves. But because of physical limitations.
>

I'm not talking about finding races or race times where a random XX cis woman was faster than a random XY cis man tho. I'm proposing total abandonment of the sex binary as a means to distinguish between athletes. It's an invalid framework to begin with and excludes a lot of (potentially incredible) athletes from competing in various events. So I think a better way to contemplate what you watched last night, had the races not been sex-segregated, is whether a (cis, trans, intersex, etc) woman could have emerged victorious competing in the same heat as a cis man where all competitors have similar physique, percent lean mass, past performance times, etc.

Exclusion is ABSOLUTELY something humans impose on other humans, and it limits us from understanding our full potential. You can not discriminate against entire groups of people and and then rationalize it by assuming they have limitations when you haven't even seen what they can do.


>
>Whatever you are proposing here would effectively exclude
>women from sports. And that is not good.

No.

I appreciate the back and forth though

"Trans women or intersex XY should not be allowed to compete against normal
women in any physical sports competition. Back in 2014, a trans woman was
allowed to fight a normal woman in a MMA fight. The normal woman suffered
a skull fracture in less than 2 minutes! A trans woman is not a biological woman
and neither is a XY intersex.

Imagine a trans woman with 4-5 times the amount of testosterone boxing against
a regular woman ..you’re a monster if you would want that."


ok, my name is monster. I don't care, lets open up those gates.

Heres the logic:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/LongJumpProgression.gif/600px-LongJumpProgression.gif

lets stop being theoretical and actually try it and see what happens instead of clutching our pearls.

Let’s see what happens?

Woman can’t fight on the front lines in the military, but let’s put them
in a cage fight with other men as an experiment.

My brain hurts. My brain really,really hurts now.

I’m mentally exhausted with this world.

you mentioned women in the front lines in the military - I did not, nor am I talking about that.

You know what I think about?

I think about how we really don't know what WE are as a species. We don't know the limits of our potential really. Besides things that can kill you, most of the limits we have are the limits we set.

Thats why I referenced the historical long-distance jumping chart.


If we were to suddenly open things up there might be some imbalance, but you're thinking about today. I'm thinking, there's going to be 10 people who will see a new watermark and say "aight, bet, hold my protein shake" and then jump for it. Then, the upcoming generation will look at that watermark and jump for it and go higher.

Do you think we're going to put the toothpaste back in the tube? That we're just going to forget about this debate? That maybe 10 years from now, someone is going to turn to you at a bbq and say "oh wow, remember back in the day people actually THOUGHT that was going to work?"

you underestimate humans.

Honestly though...this all feels like a mountain being made of a molehill. The reality is, they open things up and like 3 trans athletes compete and it's no biggie.

You're literally giving yourself a headache because you want the world to be a preserved image of how it was when you came to understand it. Realize that this is all just a taste of how radically different things will be 100, 200, 500 years from now.

modified.

Cheetahs are the oldest felines on the planet...13,000 years in
existence after the ice age, and even further then that.

And their speed and anatomy are still the same.

And we aren’t talking about advancements in technology to improve
the quality of life, we are talking about the safety and protection of
human beings.

It’s like in boxing, there are weight discriminations to protect fighters from
getting killed or seriously hurt. No matter how entertaining something
sounds, parameters have to be implemented to PROTECT HUMAN
BEINGS FROM EACH OTHER.

So we agree to disagree.

the boxing weight class analogy is a great, and relevant, one.

by transwomen to show they are all about fairness

shit is wild.

and is distinct from sex and sexuality.

You may be born with a penis, or born wanting to have same sex sexual attraction, but you aren't born wanting to wear lipstick and gender norms are learned.

If a man can still be a man and have two XX chromosomes, then how are you defining being a man?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

the underlying science doesn't support it.

The XX v. XY binary is flawed and doesn't capture the full spectrum of sex determination in human beings. Period:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10943

And even if you want to argue Semenya's "intersex" status due to her XY karyotype should mean she competes against men, as you and Shygurl are discussing there are plenty of people - whether categorized male or female - who have more than 2 sex chromosomes. This includes the 1/1000 of those born male-assigned with an XXY karyotype (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome), but also the 1/40,000 born male-assigned with an XXYY karyotype (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XXYY_syndrome); people who could all qualify for the "must have 2 X chromosomes" or "must have an X and Y chromosome" groupings you suggest here.

There are MANY variations, such as the 1/1000 of individuals born male-assigned have an XYY karyotype (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome), the 1/1000 of individuals born female-assigned with an XXX karyotype (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisomy_X), etc etc. Furthermore, most of these less common sex chromosome karyotypes are associated with, among other traits, taller than average height - which could absolutely provide a competitive advantage in a number of sports. And with incidence rates as high as 1/1000, it's extremely likely that there are and have always been people competing in the Olympics and other professional sports venues, leagues, etc with sex chromosome karyotypes other than XX and XY.

So for Semenya to have been singled out the way she was was some Sarah Baartman shit and a total disgrace. Personally, I think her case was sensationalized moreso because she is openly lesbian and doesn't present as "femme" as those (mosty male) regulators deemed satisfactory. God forbid Sha'Carri Richardson shows up to the Olympics with her gf and ditches the lacefronts and gel tips for a natural braided down hairstyle and nails; they'll probably come for her next smh.

she fought/opposed the ruling. There were/are other intersex athletes in her
running division who were also affected by the ruling, and who are just
as butch.

Francine Niyonsaba and Margaret Wambui are not allowed to compete at
800m either, because they are also intersex athletes. Francine accepted the
ruling and moved to 5000m and 10000m. Neither made much noise about
the ruling.

Also, Margaret suggested that a third category should be created for intersex
athletes, and I agree with that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/africa/57239439

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

That there should be a third sex division, which some intersex
athletes want?

Also, I was just countering the argument that Semenya was singled
out because she is a lesbian and looks like a man...The poster made that claim.
I used the other intersex athletes as an example, because they were
part of the situation as well....and they look just as butch.

So the IAAF wasn’t trying to demonize JUST her....or her in general.

I suggested that with incidence rates as high as 1/1000, it's extremely likely that there are and have always been athletes competing in venues like the Olympics with sex chromosome karyotypes other than XX and XY. We (or perhaps even the athletes themselves) just haven't known.

And if that's actually the case, then it's pretty fucked up that the main athletes who keep getting investigated for this are Black women who shun a conventionally Euro-inspired "femme" appearance. There are many other ways to present as a woman (and be beautiful, which I think all those women are) than that style of "femme". I brought it up because there is a very persistent and racist trope about Black/African women presenting as more "masculine" (eg. the community of right-wingers who refer to Michelle Obama as "Mike", call Barack gay, etc), which likely underscored regulators' fixation with their sex.

Like, EVEN IF I supported this descent into reductionist madness via attempts to regulate human sex determination at a nano level, "intersex" characteristics are prevalent in both male-assigned and female-assigned people... So why does the conversation only seem to center around (cis, trans, intersex, etc) women, and in particular those who are Black? For example, one of the common traits in XXY folks identifying as men is above average height and increased breast size. There's likely been athletes fitting that description who've competed as men in various sports. Has there ever been outrage/hysteria over somebody with 2 X chromosomes competing among men instead of women?

It's just all very dumb to me.

new issue.

When The East Germans were running extensive doping programs back in
70s, and the athletic white women in those programs physically resembled
Arnold Schwarzenegger, there was a huge uproar about the biological makeup
of those women. However, the testing and protocols that we have in place now
didn’t exist then, so the systemic doping wasn’t uncovered until after Germany
became unified as a country.

The systemic doping was so horrific that, Andreas Krieger, a former
East German female athlete, who was doped as child without her knowledge,
had to get sex reassignment surgery because the doping destroyed her female hormones. She had no choice but to live life as a man. The doping turned her
into a transsexual man.

Now, that situation was a product of nurture and not nature, but it definitely
is an example of how a woman can have an advantage over other
women due to having an abnormal amount of male hormones.....nature or nurture.

And the IAAF is not attacking black women in regards to the issue.

I dont think I'm looking for a point in time or a group of people for whom any of these exclusionary tests and protocols would make sense tho... I think I'm suggesting that perhaps these tests and protocols and broader traditions (eg. sex segregation) in sports are flawed on a deep level.

I mean the fact that you refer to testosterone as a "male hormone" is an example of how biased the underlying science surrounding all of this is. Our understanding of what even is the "normal" range of testosterone in people who are not men is very limited.

Or at least, certainly not solid enough to serve as a basis for selectively destroying folks' athletic careers. Just my opinion tho.

I'm also not an avid sports person so that likely shapes my views on this a whole lot.

If your daughter was wrestling a trans athlete...

The simple way to fix it is to create a separate category for Trans..

Should I feel so much different if my daughter was running in a 200m race against Gabby Thomas or if my son was playing hs basketball against Lebron James at st Vincent st Mary.

Sometimes people are just better than you and that can be in skill, biology, or both.

I agree with you if I was living in 1985

Gabby Thomas is a pro athlete. Your daughter would be a junior athlete, so that
we be unfair competition, which is why there is an AGE RULE...to keep
events fair.

Same thing with Lebron. He is a pro adult athlete. Your son would be a
junior athlete, so that would be unfair competition. Lebron would be the bigger and
and stronger athlete due to age and development.

Discrimination is necessary to keep competition FAIR and SAFE. There is
age discrimination, weight discrimination (fighting), and now we
have biological discrimination.

This is why we tell fighters to either drop weight or fight at your current
natural weight class.

same thing should apply for transgenders or XY intersex ...either take inhibitors
to even the hormonal makeup or fight against other XY athletes.

Now, if you don’t understand that , then you’re one sick Fock ...and it’s people like
you that led to a natural woman almost getting killed in a MMA fight against a
transgendered woman.

And if you have a daughter and you would allow her to fight a man... then you truly
are sick.

I’m talking about competing against them as preps when they were already elite and especially Lebron was for Dominating his comp.

So you just did a lot of scrappy doo overtyping for no reason.

>Gabby Thomas is a pro athlete. Your daughter would be a
>junior athlete, so that
>we be unfair competition, which is why there is an AGE
>RULE...to keep
>events fair.
>
>Same thing with Lebron. He is a pro adult athlete. Your son
>would be a
>junior athlete, so that would be unfair competition. Lebron
>would be the bigger and
>and stronger athlete due to age and development.
>
>Discrimination is necessary to keep competition FAIR and SAFE.
>There is
>age discrimination, weight discrimination (fighting), and now
>we
>have biological discrimination.
>
>This is why we tell fighters to either drop weight or fight at
>your current
>natural weight class.
>
>same thing should apply for transgenders or XY intersex
>...either take inhibitors
>to even the hormonal makeup or fight against other XY
>athletes.
>
>Now, if you don’t understand that , then you’re one sick
>Fock ...and it’s people like
>you that led to a natural woman almost getting killed in a MMA
>fight against a
>transgendered woman.
>
>And if you have a daughter and you would allow her to fight a
>man... then you truly
>are sick.
>

but, looking at her record, Fallon Fox herself also lost by TKO to a cis woman (Ashlee Evans-Smith) the year before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#Mixed_martial_arts_record


So if people are uncomfortable with Fallon's brutality in that particular fight, maybe the issue is that bloody no-holds-barred cagefighting is even a "sport"

I mean, why can't MMA fighters wear more protective gear? I feel like that whole rebuttal is focused on the wrong thing lol

>
>but, looking at her record, Fallon Fox herself also lost by
>TKO to a cis woman (Ashlee Evans-Smith) the year before:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#Mixed_martial_arts_record
>
>
>
>So if people are uncomfortable with Fallon's brutality in that
>particular fight, maybe the issue is that bloody
>no-holds-barred cagefighting is even a "sport"
>
>I mean, why can't MMA fighters wear more protective gear? I
>feel like that whole rebuttal is focused on the wrong thing
>lol
>

But get where you are coming from.

If my daughter was good enough to be in a ring/cage with a trans woman then im all for it because as you pointed out - Fallon Fox also got KTFO. Fallon fox for all her publicity has not competed at the highest level of MMA.

Thats where things do get a little tricky in these small promotions where accountability is low. I can see a mismatch being made for publicity or for lack of info/resources

At the highest pro levels of boxing and mma though -- part of the responsibility of the fighters, their camp, and the promotion is to try to find evenly based competitors. You don't throw an unseasoned mateur vs a world champ in their first fight.

So yes if my daughter is fighting in the UFC at 145 and has a shot at beating Amanda Nunes, then I absolutely have 0 problem with her fighting Fallon Fox at 145 lol. Id be much more worried about her fighting Nunes than Fox.

I see where you're coming from too, actually.

did you look up her opponent's skirt?

get a dna test?


that's what you want to do, is to look up high school girl's skirts?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

And discouraged/banned from competing in a sport in which she has world-class ability because of her gender identity.

your feelings doesn't trump the needs of others.
Y'all gotta stop trying to use pathos as a basis for this debate.

>Y'all gotta stop trying to use pathos as a basis for this
>debate.

mad, sad, frustrated..

but its also a teachable moment.

Life isn’t fair. There will be things you can’t participate in for a variety of reasons.

Them the breaks.

it's funny how the breaks are determined

y'all would get on the ships again if they promised you a window seat

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvBlZy0wFOE

she will be accused of being trans

https://twitter.com/femme_thoughts/status/1410328637879074816

gotta protect women though right?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Or the follow-up question: does anybody think that this scrutiny will be applied equally? That white girls with short hair or muscles or broader than average shoulders or an unconventional jawline will get herded straight to the morally horrifying gender-check with the same frequency as black girls?

and they'll sacrifice anything to do it

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Bone density, proportionate strength, lung capacity... There are so many reasons why logically this doesn't make sense.

I'm all for people living their truth and have nothing against it, but if you transition post puberty, there are somethings you may have to let go of, to get that dream.

Competing in athletics may just be one of them.

this post had alot of interesting perspectives...after seeing this article i thought it might need to be revisited, because this is a real life example and not a hypothetical. Does the (born) female team member (as well as competing swimmers from other teams) have just reason for concern?

https://nypost.com/2021/12/09/penn-teammate-speaks-out-against-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas/

Penn teammate speaks out against transgender swimmer Lia Thomas

A teammate of Lia Thomas on the University of Pennsylvania women’s swim team has spoken out as the transgender swimmer has shattered school records.

Before her transition, Thomas competed at Penn for three years as a male.

She recently set school records in the 200-meter freestyle and 500-meter freestyle in November. This past weekend, the record-breaking stretch continued, as Thomas set a school record in the 1650-meter freestyle. Her teammate Anna Kalandadze finished in second place — over 38 seconds behind Thomas.

An anonymous teammate of Thomas spoke to the website OutKick, claiming most members of the team have expressed displeasure over the situation to their coach, Mike Schnur.

“Pretty much everyone individually has spoken to our coaches about not liking this. Our coach just really likes winning. He’s like most coaches. I think secretly everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” the female Penn swimmer said.

“When the whole team is together, we have to be like, ‘Oh my gosh, go Lia, that’s great, you’re amazing.’ It’s very fake.”

NCAA bylaws permit transgender athletes to compete as women after they have completed one year of testosterone suppression treatment.

The teammate, according to OutKick, said it’s plausible that Thomas could not only win national championships in women’s swimming, but break national women’s college records that were set by eventual Olympic gold medalists Missy Franklin and Katie Ledecky.

Thomas’ best times swimming as a woman at Penn are about two seconds behind Franklin’s record in the 200, and about 10 seconds and 56 seconds behind Ledecky’s in the 500 and 1,600, respectively. However, Thomas’ best times while swimming as a male would break both of Ledecky’s records and fall fractions of a second behind Franklin’s.

“The Ivy League is not a fast league for swimming, so that’s why it’s particularly ridiculous that we could potentially have an NCAA champion. That’s unheard of coming from the Ivy League,” the teammate said.

“On paper, if Lia Thomas gets back down to Will Thomas’ best times, those numbers are female world records. Faster than all the times Katie Ledecky went in college. Faster than any other Olympian you can think of.”

All of these amateur sports play the same heart string about people forsaking winning to help a fallen athlete or not pass someone else.

Every few weeks there's a hear tugging story about how sports are supposed to be bigger than sports.

So if you're gonna play that note you can't play this one at the same time.

that is some shit the NCAA says to justify pimping athletes

be mad?

dude just made up some shit and ran with it

Her status gives her a substantial competitive advantage.

She was an all-conference swimmer when she was competing on the men's team.
It is not a coincidence that she is breaking records on the women's side.

>She was an all-conference swimmer when she was competing on
>the men's team.
>It is not a coincidence that she is breaking records on the
>women's side.

then I guess you just gotta rock with them

y'all are the dumbest niggas alive

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

story has been picked up by a few legit sites

https://www.google.com/search?q=penn+trans+swimmer&oq=penn+trans+swimmer&aqs=chrome..69i57.3964j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

but lets take the (now 2) anonymous female teammates out of the equasion...Lia Thomas' journey is pretty much documented...should she be allowed to swim with/against biologically female swimmers? Shes slated to break damn near every record that ever existed.

>then I guess you just gotta rock with them
>
>y'all are the dumbest niggas alive
>
>www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

then your interpretation is

this is ok

not

congratulations, you've contributed to the platforming of bigotry

you niggas are dumb

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

know about the swimmer in question, should she be allowed to compete in womens swimming? i know im dumb and all but its really a simple qstn

dudes doing everything but answering the question.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you don't give a shit who wins on the women's swimming team for penn state

you've never at any point in your life given a shit and you don't care now

stop faking like a fuckin loser

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

first off, again how is it not an actual question? next, i thgt about typing out a long reply about how wrong u are but then i thought...nah. but what i will do is share alil of my background and say that i grew up swimming for teams since i was a lil dude at the ymca.

then i swam for teams during the middle and highschool years...i actually had a swimming scholarship lined up for FAMU but didnt go because that shit was too far away.

my son swam for teams on the same timeline until he went to college 2 years ago, so i enjoyed living it again from a parents perspective.

i had female teammates who i was close with and rooted for up close and personal. i dont give a shit who wins for Penn State specifically, no...but i do have close ties and personal experiences with the sport over all, as well as definitive opinions in this particalar scenario.

if i were a biologically female swimmer faced with this situation, i would definitely have feelings about how this has unfolded. old girl is smashing records left and right and i personally dont think its a coincidence. if its not a coincidence then its not a fair fight for the teammates and other competitors.

>you don't give a shit who wins on the women's swimming team
>for penn state
>
>you've never at any point in your life given a shit and you
>don't care now
>
>stop faking like a fuckin loser
>
>www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

"i dont give a shit who wins for Penn State specifically, no."


which is what I said.

cool, so in your hypothetical life as a woman athlete, you're cool with letting men look up your skirt to prove you're a Real Girl every time you beat their daughters?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

im not concerned with the institution specifically, but i do care about the sport as a whole. me not being concerned about ___ College has no bearing

>cool, so in your hypothetical life as a woman athlete, you're
>cool with letting men look up your skirt to prove you're a
>Real Girl every time you beat their daughters?

thats your (weird) theoretical resolution to the issue not mine. im not sure exactly how to address the issue, never said i did know..all im saying is that there is an issue. For some reason you wont answer the question of whether its an issue or not...why is that?

you are resorting to the GOP tactic of diverting the main issue and shifting the focus on something else

and we are talking 20 seconds not 2.5 seconds..

its a problem

>and we are talking 20 seconds not 2.5 seconds..
>
>its a problem

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

but keep cookin chef

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

thats completely false...nice try tho. like i said youre great with the GOP moves

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you agreed with me


idk how that's a win for me more than it is for you


oh,

you feel like you lose if you don't get to be a bigot.

sorry bro, that's not a game I'm playing

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

solution to a specific scenario surrounding a sport that i happen to be very knowledgeable about? gotcha. but its funny how u never addressed the original question...your bob and weave game is masterful ill give u that

>you agreed with me
>
>
>idk how that's a win for me more than it is for you
>
>
>oh,
>
>you feel like you lose if you don't get to be a bigot.
>
>sorry bro, that's not a game I'm playing
>
>www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

I think some of these folk actually thought records wouldn’t get smashed and you wouldn’t see these trans women compete and have a real advantage cause hormones and such

but now that we see a record obliterated they know its only going to get worse

so instead of admitting they were wrong they say shit like

who cares?
its just sports!

and now we have people who don’t have daughters or kids at all trying to tell us its to protect our daughters from Fox News and invasion of privacy.

scenario. ole gal competed as a male then later as a female and smashes crazy female records. if you choose to take a closer look just based on those actual facts youre automatically a bigot? oh aight den

>I think some of these folk actually thought records
>wouldn’t get smashed and you wouldn’t see these trans
>women compete and have a real advantage cause hormones and
>such
>
>but now that we see a record obliterated they know its only
>going to get worse
>
>so instead of admitting they were wrong they say shit like
>
>who cares?
>its just sports!
>
>and now we have people who don’t have daughters or kids at
>all trying to tell us its to protect our daughters from Fox
>News and invasion of privacy.
>
>

sports are separated by sex for a reason

Let these white supremacists deal with this situation thry created. They've targeted the black community for years with this issue so let's see how they deal with this.

Will the white community usurp the media promoted transphobic community?

It looks like a white male acknowledged his mediocrity in swimming compared to peers and transitioned to dominate women's sports. If this sounds absurd blame the writers of those articles. Let's see how white feminists deal with this because it shouldn't take long for most of their records to fall should this continue.

White supremacy is foul for thid but once again it's something they created at the expense of countless souls. If you think I'm full of it go research who was experimented on to get to this point...

Sports got you SPRUNG.

to see what she's got under there, whenever she wins at athletics?

that's how you protect your daughter?

do you even have kids?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

that's how you protect your kids

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

and you dont even know it.

The women competing against them.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

why even enter the thread and post if you don’t give a fuck?

obviously other do or there wouldn’t be a discussion

do it to one of his post and watch him cry to a mod.

>The women competing against them.

Pretty solid reasoning from this article:

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/

I doubt men are dressing as women just for sports trophies.

>>The women competing against them.
>
>Pretty solid reasoning from this article:
>
>https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked/
>
>I doubt men are dressing as women just for sports trophies.
>


I agree, no men are dressing as women just for sports trophies. But I do think people born as men could have an unfair competitive advantage in sports. It's the reason we separate men and women sports in general today. The article you shared tries to address it, but the reasoning it uses is the same reasoning for abolishing separating men and women sports in general. Of course not all men are better than all women at, say, the Hammer throw. But if we are dividing the sport by sex, then why stop based on gender identity (which is not the same as sex)? The arguments the ACLU puts forth in the article make sense from a social well-being perspective, but not an athletic, competitive perspective.

The most persuasive thing in the article, and said here earlier above, to me is that transgender ban will hurt women (specifically black women) the most. I find that a compelling point.

BTW, The least compelling argument to me they make is arguing that it is a myth that "Sex is binary, apparent at birth, and identifiable through singular biological characteristics." I think, correct me if I am wrong, it is pretty simple to identify whether a child is male, female or intersexed.




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

RJCC being balls-less would explain a lot though.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

don’t have kids.. lol

they have twitter.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Science and human ethics are being ignored, and the beliefs, sentiments
and desires of people are being promoted. And for this to take place at
a prestigious Ivy League institution is even more perplexing, because
they are supposed to be a school that focuses on academic excellence.

When did Ivy leave schools concern themselves with winning in sports,
to the point where they allow a man to compete as a woman?

This person has to take in chemicals in order to suppress the natural
male hormones that exist in the person’s body, but it doesn’t remove
or inhibit the male musculature that has already been developed.
Sports is a representation of the natural physicality and natural motion
of the human body, so this situation is a huge infraction to those principles.

Why this is being allowed is beyond me, because it destroys the integrity of the
sport, and it promotes unnatural performances.

>When did Ivy leave schools concern themselves with winning in
>sports,
>to the point where they allow a man to compete as a woman?

See I think this sentiment is always wrong. Like its been said, its not an issue of men posing at women just to win at sports.

I think there is a sincere desire to treat trans kids as humanely as possible and not to further ostracize them. The ACLU says so much in the report circulated earlier.

I think the issue is to what extent do you put the feelings of trans kids above every other value emphasized in sports like competitive fairness. We see the same debate in paralympic athletes. There is a lot of talk around amputee sprinters and whether carbon-fiber prostheses give them an unfair advantage. I think it was wrong and misguided to allow Oscar Pistorius to compete against people with biological legs even if he lost.

IDK. Not terribly invested in this but I think whats missing is that both sides don't really recognize that the other side has legitimate concerns.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>
>I think there is a sincere desire to treat trans kids as
>humanely as possible and not to further ostracize them. The
>ACLU says so much in the report circulated earlier.
>
>I think the issue is to what extent do you put the feelings of
>trans kids above every other value emphasized in sports like
>competitive fairness. We see the same debate in paralympic
>athletes. There is a lot of talk around amputee sprinters and
>whether carbon-fiber prostheses give them an unfair advantage.
> I think it was wrong and misguided to allow Oscar Pistorius
>to compete against people with biological legs even if he
>lost.
>
>IDK. Not terribly invested in this but I think whats missing
>is that both sides don't really recognize that the other side
>has legitimate concerns.

there is no simple solution...there are legitimate concerns on both sides and they should be able to be discussed in a respectful manner.

be allowed to compete in Women’s sport. It’s just that simple. Self-Identification is
not natural selection, or nature’s or science’s identification of the human body.

2+2=4, not 5, no matter how many times it is professed.

It’s immoral. It’s inhumane. It’s unnatural, and it’s a form of inequality towards
women.

A person being allowed to take a drug to be something that it’s not, in order
to unnaturally compete in a sport is a biological crime.

Either create a special category for transgenderd woman to compete in, create a category for XX athletes and XY athletes, or just simply draw the line, where only naturally born women can compete against naturally born women.

That woman is on their relays and they coming in fourth still
Her body mass slowing them down in the next lane over?

in the article.

“Pretty much everyone individually has spoken to our coaches about not liking this. Our coach just really likes winning. He’s like most coaches. I think secretly everyone just knows it’s the wrong thing to do,” the female Penn swimmer said.”

Coach just really likes winning and doesn’t care if it’s unethical or unnatural.
This is perceived in the same light: Hey, we are winning, so who cares about
it being right or wrong. We have the fastest swimmer in the league.

That generates recognition, and recognition generates money in the form of sponsors, news and other forms of media attention.

I could see if the person were intersex. That’s totally different, and is such a difficult
issue to deal with from both sides of the fence, because a person was born that way.

This isn’t that. This person is unnaturally engineering itself to become a woman or
to exist as a woman. In every day life, that’s fine. But in sports, which is based on
the natural existence and performance of the human body, it’s a major travesty

As I stated, human science and ethics are being shunned to promote personal
beliefs and sentiments on what should and shouldn’t be allowed. And it’s a
blatant assault on the equal rights of women, because they are being forced to
compete with men and against men.

The natural woman and women’s sports already have difficulty with the acceptance
and promotion of women in sports, and sports like track and field and swimming are
the few sports where women generate the same attention and money as the men,
and some even make more money than men. So it is important to protect and secure that all sports are performed legally and naturally for both men’s and women’s
sports


Base all sports on the chromosomal make up of the human body, and that would
do away with all the nonsense.

XX competes against XX, and XY competes against XY. There are some woman who
will be born with XY chromosomes, but in those cases masculinity never develops.

Her winning effort was part of a busy day. Thomas was the lead leg on a Penn 200 freestyle relay ever the ended up fourth and was the anchor leg on a 400 medley relay effort that also came fourth. She also tested herself in the 50-yard freestyle sprint and wound up sixth.

Saturday’s session featured the other event that gained her national attention. Two weeks ago, Thomas bested both Penn’s record and topped the NCAA season chart in the 200-yard freestyle at a home meet against Princeton and Cornell.

From the start, Thomas set the pace and dared her opposition to try the match it, just as she did in the 500. She swam with efficiency and power to continually stretch the lead to nearly seven seconds to win at 1:41.93.

The effort again netted a pool and meet record, lowered her existing school and league marks, and put herself in the entry list at 200 free for the NCAA Championships. She has also swam a leg for Penn’s second-place run in the 800-yard freestyle relay.

Thomas also won the 1650-yard freestyle, setting meet, pool and Penn school records in that event, winning the race by 38 seconds with a time of 15:59.71.

Only individual loss was in the sprint. But it seems like she is not a sprinter and was testing/pushing herself

If you lose no one cares and if you win there is an asterisk by your win.

Its reminds me of co-ed MMA fighting, the guy is a loser even if he wins.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

As a former D1 athlete I can tell you, there is a HUGE difference between male strength and female strength at that level.

For instance I was a good collegiate athlete, not great, but good, all league all years I played. My top mark in triple jump wouldn't even get me into the NCAA championship 52'5"

That's longer than the women's world record.

This argument is silly. Y'all be letting your politics trump your logic.

As a former D1 athlete I can tell you, there is a HUGE difference between male strength and female strength at that level.

For instance I was a good collegiate athlete, not great, but good, all league all years I played. My top mark in triple jump wouldn't even get me into the NCAA championship 52'5"

That's longer than the women's world record.

Oh, because that's NOT WHY there are trans athletes.

Or they'd be a bunch of that going on.

Lol yup. It’s so easy to just identify as a woman and crush all the recordz

.

https://youtu.be/5abgXEWQPlI

Relevant discussion at 18:00 or so. York said they lost 20% of their peak power output, the ability to recover the same way, and gained 5kg. “There’s no way I’d have been able to compete as an elite woman after that.”

I think the disagreement on this issue will only come into focus when we have a large enough dataset to know how close to randomly distributed the rankings of transgender m-t-f athletes are as a group.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/08/lia-thomas-defeated-by-fellow-transgender-swimmer-iszac-henig/

Interesting that this was an afterthought in the first article I saw. I was like "Wait what??" that is a fuck of an "oh by the way." Of course it was on Fox News's site.

Went from mediocre in the men's division to a national champion in the women's. But people will still claim that it is fair and that there is no advantage.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/33529775/amid-protests-pennsylvania-swimmer-lia-thomas-becomes-first-known-transgender-athlete-win-division-national-championship

Thomas, who is a transgender woman, touched the wall in 4 minutes, 33.24 seconds in the 500-yard freestyle on Thursday night to become the first known transgender athlete to win a Division I national championship in any sport.

Thomas finished 1.75 seconds ahead of second-place Emma Weyant, of Virginia. Her time was a career best and a little more than 9 seconds off of Katie Ledecky's 4:24.06 record.

The race began with the crowd cheering for each of the swimmers, but fans were noticeably quiet for Thomas' introduction. Save Women's Sports founder Beth Stelzer draped a vinyl banner with the organization's phrase over the railing.

During the race, Thomas was tested by Olympians Brooke Forde (Stanford), Erica Sullivan (Texas) and Weyant, but ultimately the Penn senior pulled away to win her first championship.

>Went from mediocre in the men's division to a national
>champion in the women's. But people will still claim that it
>is fair and that there is no advantage.
>
>https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/33529775/amid-protests-pennsylvania-swimmer-lia-thomas-becomes-first-known-transgender-athlete-win-division-national-championship
>
>Thomas, who is a transgender woman, touched the wall in 4
>minutes, 33.24 seconds in the 500-yard freestyle on Thursday
>night to become the first known transgender athlete to win a
>Division I national championship in any sport.
>
>Thomas finished 1.75 seconds ahead of second-place Emma
>Weyant, of Virginia. Her time was a career best and a little
>more than 9 seconds off of Katie Ledecky's 4:24.06 record.
>
>The race began with the crowd cheering for each of the
>swimmers, but fans were noticeably quiet for Thomas'
>introduction. Save Women's Sports founder Beth Stelzer draped
>a vinyl banner with the organization's phrase over the
>railing.
>
>During the race, Thomas was tested by Olympians Brooke Forde
>(Stanford), Erica Sullivan (Texas) and Weyant, but ultimately
>the Penn senior pulled away to win her first championship.

The women's runner with high testosterone levels...that was a conversation to be had

But a dude going from the men's team...to the women's team... nah, I can't clap for that

It's not homophobic to say he has an advantage.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2019-06/20/11/asset/buzzfeed-prod-web-06/sub-buzz-17326-1561045722-8.jpg

Hahahaha.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

as of 2019 it wouldn't have placed in the top 10 of NCAA women's times for the 500 yard freestyle

https://swimswam.com/brooke-forde-drops-6-seconds-in-the-500-in-1-day-becomes-no-5-performer-in-history/

you'd think all you fans of women's swimming would know that

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

He didn’t win any individual championships and never qualified for the Olympics, but he was exceptionally fast. He had the fastest, if not top 3, 50 free time in the country his SR year of high school. His 50 free time in HS and college would shatter the women’s NCAA record. He’s also would own the record in the 100 Free and 100 Fly.

The difference between men and women in swimming is comparable to track, but I’d say a little more pronounced due to the inherent height advantage men naturally have over women. The 50 yard/meter is comparable to the 200 in track and the 100 comparable to the 400 in track. And so on.

I’m not going to jump in this debate, but I do think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that the competition was fair. I mean, c’mon (c). I totally understand the reflexive response to the typical conservative/transphobic take on this topic though. If I’m interpreting the NCAA rules correctly, this specific situation won’t be happening in the future. Maybe in 23-24, but I believe the rule that will take effect in 2 years would disqualify Lia from the women’s group.

and then pretending that your brother, if he were to transition to a woman, would have the same times that were had pre-transition. Which is crazy and makes this stuff below meaningless.

>His 50 free time in HS and college
>would shatter the women’s NCAA record. He’s also would
>own the record in the 100 Free and 100 Fly.

She went from being ranked in the mid 60s in the 500 free to winning the event by 7 seconds.

As I said before, the gap between men and women is pronounced in swimming as men have inherent biological advantages - generally speaking. I’m sure the hormonal treatment, has definitely made things more challenging for Lia, but her times are only down 2-3% from pre transition. The gap in times between men and women is somewhere in the 10-15% range. Again, there are some inherent biological advantages the hormonal treatment hasn’t accounted for. Pointing that doesn’t make someone anti-trans or transphobic. I’ve never bashed her or went out of my way to protest her right to compete. I think she’s an extreme anomaly that’s not worth getting so worked up over.

>She went from being ranked in the mid 60s in the 500 free to
>winning the event by 7 seconds.

Irrelevant. Because I'm sure you could make the same claims with respect to her 50/100/200 free rankings, pre and post transition. But that isn't the question/"concern" which is whether or not cis-gender women can compete with tran-gendered women. Which, obviously, they can.

>As I said before, the gap between men and women is pronounced
>in swimming as men have inherent biological advantages -
>generally speaking.
Well she lost the 100 and 200 free...so much for all these "advantages".

Next up on OKP: Blacks and all our gotdamn "fast twitch muscles"...not fair for the whites.

You seem to believe it’s a completely even playing field while I disagree. That doesn’t mean I think she should be banned from women’s swimming nor does it mean I have anything against her. It’s just my opinion at the moment that she had an advantage over her peers. That’s not an extreme take, so I’m unsure why you made the ridiculous hyperbolic statement.

>You seem to believe it’s a completely even playing field
>while I disagree.

Who said anything about "completely even". That isn't true any any sports arena. I merely said that cis-gendered folks can be competitive.

>That doesn’t mean I think she should be
>banned from women’s swimming nor does it mean I have
>anything against her. It’s just my opinion at the moment
>that she had an advantage over her peers. That’s not an
>extreme take, so I’m unsure why you made the ridiculous
>hyperbolic statement.

But it wasn't hyperbolic. It's the sentiment that folks have regarding Black athletes (that we have biological advantages over white athletes). Which is literally what you wrote. Or were you talking about some other type of advantage? That's rhetorical (it's not worth the back and forth, after all)

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

The fastest women's time is 4:24. of all time. The fastest men's time is 4:06.

The 25th fastest men's time is 4:09. That's 25 niggas that can shave at least 15 seconds off of the greatest women's time of all time. And that's a 3 second difference. I can't find a list lower than the top 25 men's times.

Just 'cause I like math, let's say every 3 seconds is 25 niggas. 4:06-4:09 is 25. 4:10-4:13 is 25. so on and so forth.

That's at least 150 niggas that can beat the best women's record of all time. My guess is that it's probably way more.

Lia did some hormone therapy and is already 1 second behind the top 10. Maybe she's that fast. Or maybe she hasn't done enough therapy yet. This ain't a cut and dry issue.

it is what I said it is, it is the top NCAA times, as of 2019

you didn't read, and you're doing math poorly

Lia is a good swimmer, no one said she isn't.

she wouldn't have won most years, claiming that her performance is unfair is something you should prove.

oh wow, 150 dudes, or let's triple it, 450 dudes, all time, in NCAA swimming, out of LITERAL BILLIONS OF PEOPLE can swim faster?

but you're having a whole meltdown because what if one of those 150/450 is trans


this is not about transgender people.

this is about enabling harassment of women that someone doesn't like because they have some muscles, or short hair, or they're not white'


if you can't see that, and why there's so much money and attention being used to try and freak you out over a literal tiny difference in a sport you have never cared about in your life until now, you are a dummy


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Asking if Lia's time was a particularly fast time is disingenuous considering she's 1 second slower than the #10 of all time. Of course that's fucking fast. How do you know she wouldn't have won most years? Fact of the matter is she's placing higher that somebody that may feel like she has an unfair advantage.

I don't have to prove shit. All I said was that's it's not as cut and dry as you're making it.

It's a subject that no one has a perfect answer for and the NCAA is doing the best they can. Over the next coming seasons, they'll require trans people to undergo 3 years of therapy instead of the 1 they're doing now. So the NCAA are updating shit as they go along. Last I checked, there's not a lot of comprehensive data on the effects of hormone therapy, although early studies SUGGEST that it does reduce muscle mass. So the data is still coming in while all this stuff is going on.

Are people using this to harass trans people? Yes. But they been doing that before this was even an issue. Are news articles using their concerns to stoke fear in niggas? Likely. But that's media in general.

Are some people concerned about the fairness of competition? Yes. There are women on that team that have no problem with Lia being trans. But when your competition is 6'4, winning, and at least looks much stronger than you, it's gonna give people pause when it comes to sport. It's not that much different than seeing a team with a 6'4 13 year old kid winning championships at a youth league.

she won the national championship

what I'm saying is...the people claiming she's making it unfair, don't seem to complain when other swimmers have gone faster at the same meet.

sometimes you swim in a year where there's someone faster than you.

exactly what is inherently unfair about that, you should explain it.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Eighth place

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/lia-thomas-finishes-8th-100-yard-freestyle-final/story?id=83556393

ATLANTA -- Penn swimmer Lia Thomas' collegiate swimming career ended with an eighth place finish in the 100-yard freestyle on Saturday. Thomas, a transgender woman, posted a time of 48.18 seconds, 0.81 seconds slower than her qualifying time of 47.37 seconds.

Virginia freshman Gretchen Walsh won the title in 46.05 seconds to land her first individual NCAA championship. It was a familiar spot for Virginia swimmers, who won seven individual titles and four relays to propel the Cavaliers to their second straight national championship in dominant fashion.

Since folks love comparing times...46.05 seconds is faster than Thomas' 100 preliminary and finals at the 2022 Ivy League Championships (Thomas won 1st place, and had a season's best time of 47.63 - https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/).

Let's look at some other races at the NCAA swimming national championship (https://swimmeetresults.tech/NCAA-Division-I-Women-2022/)
The 50-yard freestyle: Douglass and Walsh win 1st and 2nd. Either one of their times (and any other person who placed) smokes Thomas' personal best in the same event ( 21' Zippy - https://www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/314430/)

Same can be said of the 1 and 2 spots in the 200Y free (with respect to Thomas' SB)

Could keep going...

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Let these people who say gender ain't real get their skull cracked by a man.

Funny I bet none of the people saying gender isn't real has worked in physical sciences, agriculture, or the medical sciences.

Hormones are very real.

But out of spite yes let the men who say they are women with naturally more bone density and muscle compete against women.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

.

The dead messageboard troll.

back to stalk from the cobb webs of obscurity.

I'm gonna screen shot this for you...

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

And subject for immediate shaming and canceling especially if you're black.

*Grabs popcorn*.
*brings a few coolers of beer*

This particular issue should expand to other popular white women sports like tennis, volleyball, gymnastics, water polo, and basketball. I can't wait for the outrage. Remember, when they disagree they're transphobic. Y'all have fun reaping what you've sown.

it's a pretty easy way to find all the self-identified losers

same group as always, usually mad at women talking, now suddenly mad about women's sports that they'd otherwise be shitting on

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

there isn't at least a *possibility* the status quo is unfair to cisgender women...

Because the situation right now is, athletic organizations like the NCAA have already taken steps to lessen potential unfairness, for example by requiring m-t-f athletes to show hormonal changes, etc.

This is an acknowledgment by the leagues (and one I think would find wide agreement in the public) that in principle, it would be possible for transwomen as a whole (which is a broad category that includes many people who don't transition) to have an unfair advantage in women's sports.

Furthermore, this stance entails the following value judgment: that maintaining the fairness of women's sports is more important than maintaining the right of all transwomen to compete in "their" gender's sports division.

So the status quo is essentially, we will have to curtail the involvement of some transwomen in women's sports, to make it fair.

Do the people dismissing all claims of continuing unfairness disagree with this view? Would they all be advocates for no controls whatsoever on who participates in women's athletics?

If not, how are they so sure that the current solutions are adequate? Especially considering this area of study is so new.

If you think it's more important for society to affirm trans people everywhere than to maintain sports leagues where cisgender women aren't at a disadvantage, fine.

But the people who think there should be some curtailment, but that it's definitely not more than we currently have, that to me is a galaxy brain take.

I think the associations who run these sports have already established rules.

I certainly don't know more about women's college swimming than they do.

do you? I am deeply interested in your deep NCAA swimming knowledge you had before today.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

and try to enjoy your weekend you miserable fuck.

the dichotomy between your words and actions is a problem I cannot help you with.

you could've replied to anyone else, and you fucked that up.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

...to a good point.

Like why is the NCAA taking any steps if it's not an issue?

I dare RJCC to reply substantively. And if he doesn't , I won't respond anymore and the point will be made.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

it's not an issue that any of you motherfuckers care about at all.

you don't give a fuck about women, women's sports, or women's collegiate swimming.

what isn't an issue that the NCAA needs to deal with? Eligibility of swimmers, the equipment they use, how they train, and what they do is their job.

It's a completely false point that I already talked about.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

or these athletes

at any level or any point

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

this shit isn't about trans people and only the dumbest shits ever shat would fall for that, which is why it's the entire list of dumbshits.


this is about white dudes getting mad their daughter loses to a black girl at anything and immediately calling for a genital and genetic test to shame them

it's not even cloaked at all

if it's about fairness...why is katie ledecky allowed to swim much faster times thanks to her weirdo genetics? That shit's not unfair? no girls can beat her, that is the definition of unfairness.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

- started by a notoriously anti-LGBTQ fundamentalist Christian troll
- full of people with track records of homophobia and anti-trans sentiment on this very board
- many of the same people never gave a shit about women's rights (or sports for that matter)
- using niche conservative publications as jumping off points
- casual misgendering of trans athletes up and down this thread
- 9 out of 10 people in here would fail high school biology
- etc. etc.

Sure, there's a discussion to be had on the issue, but here? Fuck no, lol.

"Neither of us cared about women's swimming until this issue came up, therefore my opinion on it is correct and yours is wrong."

Nonsensical mindreading stuff:

"You don't actually care about the issue you're discussing," as a means of ending a conversation.

Wouldn't the person ending the conversation in all likelihood care less about the subject than the one starting it? Isn't asserting to somebody they don't care about that which they're discussing dumb on its face? LOL.

And the best one of all:

"Black people discussing a white transwoman is actually just a smokescreen for white people hating on black cisgender women."

What can you even say to shit like that? It's gaslighty.

weirdo genetics???


Dude really typed that.

How dare a woman be faster than other women.. so let transwomen compete to even the playing field?

okay… lol

nobody ended your conversation except for you

if you feel like you can't reply to me that's not me doing it, that's you being a loser who knows he's a loser.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Trying to hit multiple dogs with one stone here.

lmao..

Half the people he says that to on here have daughters.. lol.

but he knows.. he knows!!!!!

that's why the only thing you can think of are the women that you believe are your literal property

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

about you.

such a weird response. Its amazing how much straw you have in your barn for these arguments.

“Its because you hate women and skin them to make body suits.. you don’t actually care about women”

“Its because you hate women so much you call them bitches who need to stay in the kitchen on OKP”..

errr, oh wait… oops,

and sure, it's mostly because women will never talk to you unless legally required to

but it's also because you think you own them

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

because you know you fucked up

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

>that's why the only thing you can think of are the women that
>you believe are your literal property

like a guy in a movie that has so many ideas on how a criminal would commit a crime you realize he is the culprit

You can tell rjcc has hated women for a long time.

by your logic, you having the list means you hate women

you haven't thought this through

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

but you may have noticed that a lot of people think this discussion is only for men with daughters

because that's the only kind of woman that matters to them

one who they have financial and social control over

like owning something


they can't imagine caring about women other than the ones they think they own.

you should've been reading

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you're associating with.

that's where you are

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

so you cold imagine yourself as the guy fighting against it

this is your imagination at work

straight ripped from the GOP playbook

Been lying on niggas ever since he called women on here bitches and hoes back in the day

literally women around the country are being harassed for not looking feminine enough

already a thing

I'm sorry my guy, I have trouble recalling the fact that I'm too good at communicating with women to communicate on the level of the average okp poster.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

in this post

"well.. it's...it's because i can talk to girls and y'all cant"

lol

what will you make up next?

to "protect girls"

that's what you support. own it.

if you think it's a weird idea, then you can't be in favor of what these people are pushing. it's your problem.


the fact that none of y'all can get a woman to talk to you is unfortunate and has created a gulf between us over the years and it's sad as fuck

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you're doing this goofy shit again jump to some extreme no one ever suggested and pretend it's where anyone who doesn't align completely with you on this topic stands

the same way you're pretending legs believes he "owns" his wife and daughters.

which is the thing i asked about in this particular thread because it was such a weird thing to say, i figured i'd give you a chance to clarify what you meant (silly i know)

and by referencing your weird skirt references, now i must be in support of that too

but you live in your imagination. that's been clear for a while now.

none of them are the point you were asked about

because you know you fucked up and you desperately need to change the subject now





www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you really really love your make believe

it is difficult for me to engage with you when you say one thing and do another

if that's not the standard you're rocking with anymore, that is your choice to make, I just want to have a good understanding of who you believe yourself to be

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

if you don't understand what this is and who they're coming for you are an idiot

https://twitter.com/kylesockwell/status/1505633212231524360


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

"Black people discussing a white transwoman is actually just a smokescreen for white people hating on black cisgender women."

Of all the dumbass arguments around this topic, this is the most absurd.

>"Black people discussing a white transwoman is actually just
>a smokescreen for white people hating on black cisgender
>women."
>
>Of all the dumbass arguments around this topic, this is the
>most absurd.

.... Are labeling others as transphobic and misgenderers. I too remain befuddled at how black women got dragged into the argument revolving around the white community. Let this whole situation play out within that community without need to chase this ambulance, gain brownie points, or receive whatever compensation donors are shelling out to jump into this particular fight.

https://twitter.com/true_canuck1/status/1506353135840862222?s=21

why was this deleted?

around in the women’s locker room uncovered, which makes her teammates
feel extremely uncomfortable.

Imagine being a biological woman, where every aspect of your being is organic
and natural as a woman, but you are coerced to share a locker room or dressing
room with a biological male figure, because he has been given permission/approval
to compete AS A WOMAN.

I will never ever experience or know what a women feels in that regard,
to completely have her womanhood ignored and degraded to make way
for a man’s desire to be a woman.

Furthermore, the NCAA is supposed to be an association for amateur sports, where
the use of chemicals or drugs that alters the performance and/or physical appearance
of athletes are prohibited. Lia Thomas has to take testosterone inhibitors in order
to meet the acceptable hormonal metrics to be able to compete as a woman, a metric
that is naturally generated by biological women.......Let that simmer slowly in your thinking.

The apathy towards natural selection and natural law, and dishonoring the
the commitment to having an even playing field, is not only unethical and
unscrupulous, but it is inhumane.

if in fact she hasnt, are her teammates expected to not react to this questionably (the genitalia issue)?

https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/

A member of the University of Pennsylvania women’s swim team said some team members are uncomfortable changing in the locker room with transgender swimmer Lia Thomas, according to a teammate.

Thomas, 22, who spent the previous three years swimming with the men’s team before she began transitioning to a woman, has created an uneasy environment in the locker room, as she still retains her biologically male genitalia — which are sometimes exposed — and is attracted to women, one teammate told the Daily Mail in an interview.

“It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” the swimmer said. Thomas has reportedly told her teammates that she dates women.

I'd bet all the men on this board jingle their keys behind a woman if they're walking in the same direction just to let them know "I'm behind you." I can't even imagine a situation where I'd ever be inconsiderate enough to not jingle my keys.

To me it's like if I'm considerate enough to do that, then goddamn Lia. Then again being white in this country allows you to not consider other people.

I mean granted it's a locker room I'd hope Lia ain't just hovering over women having whole conversations with her teammates with her dick out being extra. I don't know how the women are in their locker rooms but if they anything like niggas at the Y or some shit, then i don't know what to say.

I'll let y'all have that one.

>https://nypost.com/2022/01/27/teammates-are-uneasy-changing-in-locker-room-with-trans-upenn-swimmer-lia-thomas/
>
>A member of the University of Pennsylvania women’s swim team
>said some team members are uncomfortable changing in the
>locker room with transgender swimmer Lia Thomas, according to
>a teammate.
>
>Thomas, 22, who spent the previous three years swimming with
>the men’s team before she began transitioning to a woman,
>has created an uneasy environment in the locker room, as she
>still retains her biologically male genitalia — which are
>sometimes exposed — and is attracted to women, one teammate
>told the Daily Mail in an interview.
>
>“It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body
>parts and is still attracted to women,” the swimmer said.
>Thomas has reportedly told her teammates that she dates
>women.

Unsure how many people know this particular fact. Damali about to enter this thread and cancel everybody.

Does it make someone transphobic if they have an issue with this?

He doesn’t have breasts. He doesn’t have a uterus, and he doesn’t
have ovaries, but he is being allowed to compete as a woman, because
he is allowed to take hormonal suppressants to meet the hormonal metrics
of a woman.

The NCAA’s definition of a woman is simply based on hormonal metrics,
which is totally opposite of natural law. That means that any male athlete
could take hormonal suppressants to become eligible to compete as a woman.

That’s how ridiculous and upside down this is.

It has nothing to do with transphobia. It has to do with the fact that
he is biological male figure existing in a place for WOMEN. It’s not
a unisex environment. That would be a different story.

I could feel like a tiger, and put on stripes like a tiger, and hiss like
a tiger....but that doesn’t make me a god damn tiger, and they will rip
me a new asshole if I invaded their den.

>He doesn’t have breasts. He doesn’t have a uterus, and he
>doesn’t
>have ovaries, but he is being allowed to compete as a woman,
>because
>he is allowed to take hormonal suppressants to meet the
>hormonal metrics
>of a woman.
>
>The NCAA’s definition of a woman is simply based on hormonal
>metrics,
>which is totally opposite of natural law. That means that any
>male athlete
>could take hormonal suppressants to become eligible to compete
>as a woman.
>
>That’s how ridiculous and upside down this is.
>
>It has nothing to do with transphobia. It has to do with the
>fact that
>he is biological male figure existing in a place for WOMEN.
>It’s not
>a unisex environment. That would be a different story.
>
>I could feel like a tiger, and put on stripes like a tiger,
>and hiss like
>a tiger....but that doesn’t make me a god damn tiger, and
>they will rip
>me a new asshole if I invaded their den.
>
>
>

You are misgendering her like the typical cishet, definitely a slur, transphobic black male. That person clearly wishes to be referred to as she so you and the NCAA have to respect her.

It cannot be as bad as you make it seem. This issue is not for me to agree with but point out that we need to be respectful to the ever changing dynamics of women's sports.

......

There's so many ways for this to turn bad. High school sports' response to this will be telling. People are understimating white society's response to this. How's this situation play out in high school basketball on both gender sides? Are people mature and knowledgeable enough to handle this situation?

There is no law saying that I do, or that can force me to respect
and acknowledge that.

However, there is natural law that establishes the difference between
male a female.

One has a Phallus. The other has a Vagina. One generates sperm. The other
gives birth.

Her feelings and wishes has zero to do with natural law and science. If that’s
the case, then the world should go back to the church governing
the state, where laws were based off of feelings and beliefs

She or He can feel however she wants, but when it comes to the natural
performances and biological makeup of a human being their are LAWS,
and that should never be sacrificed because of the feelings and wishes
on one human being.

He is not a woman not matter what he thinks, because the constitution
of a woman is not based on thought or feelings, it’s based on biology.

He has zero biological properties that constitutes a woman, so therefor
he is a he and not a she.

And you consistently prove it, everyday.

I thought she said Lia has male body parts and its(the dick) still attracted to women.

had to read that shit twice

Should they be concerned when/if fam catch a boner? I mean…she is attracted to women it’s bound to happen

like Lia is in the locker room having girl talk…

but the dills is reacting to the attraction.

in girl sports.

https://www.npr.org/2022/03/25/1088908741/utah-transgender-athletes-veto-override

I know Utah is a red state, and I’m Democratic, but it’s good to see states
get aggressive with this situation to protect fair play and the existence
and biological woman.

using CRT for it's smear campaign ?

American Principles Project

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Principles_Project

"APP has also focused much of its programatic efforts on opposing the teaching of critical race theory and gender ideology in public schools"

I support the law that has been implemented to protect and support biological
women.

They are not going to stop with that law.

because we can't have

"one transgender girl playing in K-12 sports"

and it's obviously a terrible injustice that

"there have been no allegations of any of the four transgender youth athletes in Utah having a competitive advantage."

Great effort, thank you fundamentalist right wingers! Now AllStah and his fellow very non-transphobic women's sports advocates can finally sleep at night, knowing that the terror of people who make them uncomfortable "dominating" women's sports comes to an end before it even started. Whew!

And there is an advantage. Through natural selection and puberty they develop
muscles, testosterone, and strength that is more powerful than women.

Why?

Because they are biological males.

I see you’re not an advocate of women’s rights, and trying to force women to
compete against biological men is an attack against women’s rights.

Tell you what, what do biological women think? It’s their gender, so they should
decide and make the rules....should they not?

AND THEY SAY HELL NO.

Sorry, little Johnny, but you can’t compete against Megan. However, you’re
more than welcome to compete against Bobby....or have your own transgender
category.

Science will always draw a factual line....you know, because it’s science.

I will just be one stupid motherfocker if it means protecting the rights
and equality for WOMEN.

The fact that you have no problem with men infringing upon the rights
of women, and that you want to disregard natural selection and fair play
just so that men can live out their desires and wishes, illustrates that you
are inhuman.

People want to talk about transphobia?

This is just another from of misogyny and disregard for
biological women.

I have nieces, sisters, aunts, mothers, and grandmothers....and I will
fight to death for their equal rights as women, and to have a say as women.

Biological women don’t want to compete against men or transgender women,
and no man has the right to coerce them to.

that uses women's rights as a stick to beat trans people with.

If you do fight to the death it's because you choked on your own pretentious word salad.

I will just be one stupid motherfocker if it means protecting the rights
and equality for WOMEN.

The fact that you have no problem with men infringing upon the rights
of women, and that you want to disregard natural selection and fair play
just so that men can live out their desires and wishes, illustrates that you
are inhuman.

People want to talk about transphobia?

This is just another from of misogyny and disregard for
biological women.

I have nieces, sisters, aunts, mothers, and grandmothers....and I will
fight to the death for their equal rights as women, and to have a say as women.

Biological women don’t want to compete against men or transgender women,
and no man has the right to coerce them to.

>I will just be one stupid motherfocker if it means protecting
>the rights
>and equality for WOMEN.
>
>The fact that you have no problem with men infringing upon the
>rights
>of women, and that you want to disregard natural selection and
>fair play
>just so that men can live out their desires and wishes,
>illustrates that you
>are inhuman.
>
>People want to talk about transphobia?
>
>This is just another from of misogyny and disregard for
>biological women.
>
>I have nieces, sisters, aunts, mothers, and
>grandmothers....and I will
>fight to the death for their equal rights as women, and to
>have a say as women.
>
>Biological women don’t want to compete against men or
>transgender women,
>and no man has the right to coerce them to.
>
>

What women's equal rights events and groups did you support prior to the Lia Thomas?

It's crazy to see a male call a woman misogynist for supporting transgender women's ability to participate in sports. Is this payback for black feminists and media referring to black men that refuse advances from transgender women as transphobic?

Allstah is entitled to feel a certain way but I'm unsure of he felt this way prior to the Lia Thomas controversy.

Still pissed after reading that full article comparing Lia Thomas to Jackie Robinson because it's lazy writing. These are better comparisons

Maana Patel
Charlotte "Eppy" Epstein
Yusra Mardini
Tatjana Schoenmaker
Kayla Han
Gertrude Ederle
Fanny Durack

You must be so lonely.

if this was fair wouldn’t she rank much lower as a woman?

I think that alone is proof how this is problematic.

Some say once she transitioned there is no clear advantage. If this was true Lia wouldn’t jump so high in rankings as a woman.

So that's a handicap.

The quantitative way to judge this will be (when the sample size gets large enough), are transwomen's rankings randomly distributed through the rankings of women's sports.

IE, whatever the percentage of the population of a sport is transwoman, the same percentage should hold for every ranking.

So if 1-in-400 womens' swimmers are transwomen, 1-in-400 champions should be, 1-in-400 top ten finalists should be, etc....also 1-in-400 bottom ten performers.

The degree to which this doesn't hold will or won't show unfairness.

However I predict this will not resolve anything as advocates will pivot from "it's fair" to "fairness between trans and ciswomen doesn't matter, excluding trans athletes is still wrong since transwomen are women, therefore excluding transwomen for outperformance is the same thing as excluding cis women for it (we already see old name-searching ass **** hedging towards this position a bit in the thread).

Is the argument that men do not generally have a physical advantage for certain strength-based sports? Or is it that advantage is neutralized by the testosterone blockers?

I am guessing the answer for the first question is men do have an advantage given the very fact that sports require test blockers like has been mentioned before.

So if its the second one how are we sure such measures create fairness? Or are we really waiting to gether a large enough same size (at the expense of current women competing)?


Cuz I wonder how we account for other advantages besides testosterone, like physique?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

In other words, same criteria apply to ciswomen as transwomen--test levels. Your gender assigned at birth wouldn't be relevant...so there is no "discrimination" based on that fact alone, which is understandable why they took this approach. It is in keeping with the prevailing wisdom of the enlightened, that whenever possible we should affirm the identity of transpeople.

But I don't believe this will create perfect fairness, for the reasons you mention. The average person who experienced puberty as a male will have some physical advantages over the average female.

I truly think the governing bodies are at an impasse. They don't want to preemptively rule discriminatorily. They are hoping the consequences of the status quo won't be too lopsided.

And nobody knows how lopsided is too lopsided for the public and athletic communites to handle...it's an interesting problem.

But it sounds paradoxical to me to try to make sex-neutral sports that are divided by sex.

If the competitions were the oscars (because its on everyone's brain) the answer would be easy, why do we even bother to split up oscar categories by sex, its simply tradition and it could be done away with.

Or if it were the grammys would could say, the distinctions we make by race (and the proxy's we use for race like genres urban/pop/etc.) are relics of the racial history of music and we can easily (or maybe not so easily) do away with those categories.

But sex is inherently more objective way to divide most sports more so then gender and its hard to skirt around that without picking winners and losers. Even the most decent progressive person is going to feel a way when their daughter loses to a person who competed most of their career as a male. To not acknowledge that a demonize people who feel that way doesn't seem like the best way to get people to come around to the cause.

Also, and I am really done on this subject I hope, I think you naimed that the idea is to affirm the identity of transpeople and a lot of this is being done for their wellbeing. But Its also kind of obvious that being plastered in newspapers and being made into memes is not going to do anything positive for Lia Thomas' mental health and making her feel affirmed.

She was going to have a tough go whether they made her compete in mens or women category but by placing her in women's category it seemed like she was set up for a level of global ridicule that would not be healthy.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

how much you want to spin or push that dogma. When arguing something as fact,
there must be evidence, proof, science, etc to prove or validate your point.
Your are basically dismissing biology for the sake to feel right, even though
you’re not.

You state that transwomen are women, then what is YOUR definition of a woman?

- Biological women ( not intersexed or some type of genetic defect) have XX
sex chromosomes

- Biological women have natural breast and can produce milk when in pregnancy

- Biological woman have ovaries and a uterus

Those are just a few natural properties that biological women possess.


Transgender women do not naturally possess those properties, and the muscle
mass, bone density, and testosterone that men generate don’t just magically
disappear because a man decides to change his gender to female. She/He is
still 100 percent biological male, and taking hormone inhibitors does no eradicate
the strength and power that the male body developed prior to transitioning into a TRANSGENDER woman. That is a huge advantage that transgender women
have over biological women.


Moreover, and this is the most ridiculous part of it all. In order for a transgender
woman to become eligible to compete in a NCAA women’s sport, the transgender
has to be on hormone inhibitors for at least one year PRIOR to seeking eligibility, and
must remain on inhibitors after becoming eligible.

So a transgender woman has to take a chemical in order to limit the amount of
testosterone that his/her body produces, because without that artificial action
a transgender woman wouldn’t be able to emasculate his body in order to
become eligible to compete.

Is this what we want to allow in sports, when sports are based off the natural performance and physical presentation of the human body?

A biological woman doesn’t take any artificial substances or chemicals in order to be
a woman. Her existence is organic and natural, so why should she be coerced to
compete against a transgender woman who has to ingest or inject a substance
in order to become eligible to compete as a woman ?

There needs to be a natural/biological division and a transgender division, similar
to bodybuilding, where there is a natural division that is separated from
the regular division of professional bodybuilding.

In the natural division of bodybuilding, body builders do not ingest or inject their
bodies with any hormones or inhibitors. Their nutrition and health practices
are 100 percent natural.

In the regular division, there are no rules against bodybuilders using PEDs
or steroids.

Women’s sports need to go in that direction to maintain the integrity and fairness
of women’s sport.

One women is biological. The other is transgender. THERE IS A HUGE
DIFFERENCE, and sports need to reflect that. They are not the same.

what you do, and are allowed to do.

So that’s an illustration of your character more than it is of mine.

You're attacking an entire community of already oppressed human beings because you're an insecure, lonely loser. And you prove it every single day.

And you’re the only one who is doing it . Others are sharing their opinions
or retorts with me without getting personal.

I simply disagree with the inclusion of transgendered women in women’s sports,
due to biological differences and the fracturing of competitive equity.

And you want to talk about oppression?

What about the oppression of biological women who are being FORCED
to compete against human beings who are physical stronger and faster than
them....and whose nature and natural femininity are being disregarded and
degraded.

This is the last time I respond to you.

You enjoy your evening.

>And you’re the only one who is doing it .

You transphobic fuckwit.

Natural Law was used to defend slavery. There is no natural law other than what everyone agrees what it is. That is the notion of natural law changes all the time.

If you want to make an argument based on biology and science you should let a biologist do it.


https://naturalselections.substack.com/p/iamawoman?r=83qgf&s=w&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Slavery was due to the ignorance and hate of man, and
made up science.

This is similar to made up science, just so that a man can compete as a woman.

There is a dichotomy between male and female.

Would you disregard the size difference and ability between the Lion and Lioness?

Or the difference between a Queen/female insect and a male insect?

This is not hate or dislike for transgenders. They are human and entitled to the
same human rights as everyone else, and should not be discriminated against.

But when it comes to physical competition and sports, there is a reason why there is
a male division and a female division, to physically protect women and ensure an
even and fair playing field.

I’m glad states are taking the necessary actions to maintain the integrity and fairness
in sports.

White males wanting to compete in women's sports is in NO WAY like chattel slavery.
Stop that goofy shit

while claiming its about defending Black women.

but that is how politics work these days. If one side is against it you automatically have to be on the other side or you align with everything they stand for.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

women competing in woman’s sports.

She made a huge point about Lia Thomas’s swimming performance.
She stated that Lia sandbagged the race so that she wouldn’t break Katie
Ledecky’s record, but to just do enough to win the race to make it appear
that she didn’t/doesn’t have an advantage as a biological male/transgender
woman.

because a few posts back, you were all like, Its HE and there's no law saying i have to respect what he wants to be called.. and natural law, or something.

what gives?

Im actually quite okay with the term transgender woman. It acknowledges the separation. One is born. The other one is made. As far the pronoun goes, I usually
combine the two: she/he

I can’t ignore the the biology, nor can I ignore the physiological differences.

You make a good point sounds terrible. Let others better at it speak on it and say less.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

I would say that she is quite experienced and physically knows more
than you and me in regards to sports and the differences between male and
female when it comes to physical performances.

And even Lia’s teammates have accused her of sandbagging and
collusion.

So there is some validity here.


———- At this weekend’s Ivy League Championships, Lia Thomas suddenly slashed five seconds from that disappointing time put up in January’s showdown with Henig. Saturday, it was Thomas (meet, pool and program record time of 47.63) beating Henig for the Ivy League title.

Thomas left Harvard’s Blodgett Pool this weekend with the 100, 200, and 500 freestyle Ivy Championships.

Thomas’ teammate told me in January that something was up between these two.

“Looking at time, I don’t think she was trying,” the Penn swimmer alleged. “I know they’re friends and I know they were talking before the meet. I think she let her win to prove the point that, ‘Oh see, a female-to-male beat me.’”

When asked if there was collusion at Penn’s tri-meet against Dartmouth and Yale, the teammate didn’t hesitate.

“I do. I can’t say for sure, but I wouldn’t be shocked if I found out that was 100% true,” Thomas’ teammate said. ————

Fox loves their tokens

but you're on the side with ted cruz, allstah and caitlin jenner, so who knows, maybe you know what's best for everyone, especially women

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

transgender women in their sport, because they are biological men with the
properties of biological men.

If you were to do a poll, and ask women if they approve of transgender women in
in their sport, close to 100 percent would be against it.

But no one ever cares about what women think or what they want. The government
is trying to control their wombs with abortion laws, and now they are trying to
control their gender.

That’s the side I’m on. I’m on the side of biological women and nature.

And the fact that the transgender movement is trying to associate their
cause with slavery/ and the civil rights movement is a god damn travesty.
They have no reverence or respect for biological women, for the culture of
ethnic people, or respect for humanity in general.

>The government
is trying to control their wombs with abortion laws, and now they are trying to
control their gender.

the people writing those abortion laws are your homies!


I wonder if there's some explanation about why people who you accurately state are oppressing and controlling women are so thoroughly on your side


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

you are Tucker Carlson

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

A federal lawsuit was filed by three Connecticut female high schoolers a few
years ago, claiming that transgender girls being allowed to participate in girl
sports is an action of discrimination towards biological women.

The whole purpose of Title IX is to prevent discrimination against women/girls in educational institutions. Since transgender women are biological men ( born as men),
their participation in girls sports creates an unfair advantage for girls/women, which
deprives girls/women of merits and opportunities in high school sports.

The lawsuit was dismissed by a federal judge, but the lawsuit inspired several
states to implement legislations banning transgender girls from participating in
girl sports. So far, 11 states have issued bans....and more states will definitely follow suit.

*a disadvantage for biological girls and women.

but being a person who isn't allstah


and looking up and seeing that allstah is extremely gung ho about your point


would be enough for me to say, eh maybe I should reconsider


but I have positive things going on in my life and people who care about me, and I should be more thoughtful in my consideration of how not everyone has that.



www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Also they tell you life isn't fair and not everyone should have a trophy.

that many people in this post want it to be.

the same people in this post are the same ones who were whining about trophies

they feel like losers

that's the thread that connects them.

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

It’s about the Equality Act in sports.

Do you know what that is? Probably not. It is an act that ensues the SAFETY
and FAIRNESS in sports.

The majority of people in this post have never been athletes or competed
in a sport.

I have. I played basketball in grade school and competed in track and field
and swimming as a master adult.

There are different types of sports in regards to physicality.

Parallel sports - swimming, running, cycling, etc

Contact sports - basketball, baseball, cricket, etc

Collision sports - Hockey, Football, Rugby

Combat Sports - Wrestling, Boxing, MMA, etc


In parallel sports and contact sports, it’s mostly about FAIRNESS. Since
a biological man possess more strength, power and agility than
a biological woman, a biological man competing against a biological
woman would be UNFAIR

In collision and combat sports, not only is it about FAIRNESS, it’s about
SAFETY. A biological woman could sustain life threatening injuries in
a competition against a biological man in a collision or combat sport due
to a biological man being superior in strength, power and agility.

Since transgender women were born as biological men, allowing them
to compete against biological women would go against the equality act in
sports.


Hopefully, that makes sense to you.

.

https://twitter.com/jaxdotcom/status/1577263262382653443


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

i mean i'd *like* to believe even they would have a wtf/fuck that reaction to something like this

or will it be, "well its' just questions", and its to protect our kids, and if we come out against this we're letting the woke homos win.

Me. I did. And Rjcc in this very post. As a hint for next time, fascists are liars. They don't care about making sports fair. They want to dominate and humiliate people.

It's not too late for people to admit that this issue isn't worth letting strangers humiliate children. Fascists are slippery, but we can always stop believing their lies.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2022/06/03/ohio-legislators-want-to-check-childrens-gender/

Peter Greene
Senior Contributor
I look at K-12 policies and practices from the classroom perspective.
Follow
Jun 3, 2022,10:05am EDT

Late at night on Wednesday, June 1, a bill meant to modify Ohio’s teacher residency program suddenly acquired an unrelated amendment. Under the Save Women’s Sports Act, a student athlete’s gender can be questioned, requiring that student to bring a note from their doctor to verify their sex.

Under the bill, schools must establish separate male, female, and co-ed sports teams, and no school or interscholastic sports conference may permit “individuals of the male sex” to participate in any teams or competitions designate for “participants of the female sex.”

Then this language follows:

If a participant’s sex is disputed, the participant shall establish the participant’s sex by presenting a signed physicians statement indicating the participant’s sex based upon only the following:

1) The participant’s internal and external reproductive anatomy;

2) The participant’s normal endogenously produced levels of testosterone;

3) An analysis of the participants genetic makeup.

The bill does not include any language limiting who may dispute the athlete’s gender, under what conditions, nor when such disputing can occur.

Under this language, any young girl playing sports in Ohio could be challenged because she doesn’t look feminine enough or simply wins too often. There is nothing in the bill to say that such a challenge couldn’t be lodged publicly by a disgruntled opponents coach, parent or random fan. Will soccer referees now have to throw a “suspected transgender athlete on the field” flag?

In their haste to slap restrictions on trans athletes, legislators propose a tool that could be used to humiliate any young woman playing sports in Ohio.

It’s stunning to imagine a teen or pre-teen athlete, working her way through the challenge of building and finding her identity, to be told by her school that she must go through an invasive physical exam to provide proof that she is who she says she is.

Conversely, the bill provides plenty of protection for people bringing these charges. Any athlete who feels she has been deprived of an “athletic opportunity” or who feels she has suffered direct or indirect harm because of a violation of the law against trans female athletes has a “private cause of action” and may sue the school, the school district, or any organization regulating interscholastic athletics.

The athlete who demands to see proof of a female athlete’s gender is also explicitly protected from any “retaliation or other adverse action” by the school or related organizations.

The bill also protects a school district from any lawsuit brought against them for maintaining the separate sports programs required by this bill, and may in fact sue anyone who sues them over the matter.

There are no provisions in the bill creating penalties for people who bring frivolous or abusive challenges against female athletes. Nor is there any recourse for young transgender women who are hereby stripped of their right to play sports.

The bill was passed along party lines, with Republicans voting in favor and Democrats opposing.

Rep. Sara Carruthers (R-Hamilton) supported the bill to protect the integrity of women’s sports and suggested that schools instead offer trans athletic teams.

The amendment was offered by Rep. Jena Powell, the representative for the 80th district and a graduate of Liberty University. Powell said, “All these girls ask is for a fair shot” but that “the opportunity is being ripped from them by biological males.” Powell previously proposed similar language as both a stand-alone bill and an amendment to other bills.

The Ohio High School Athletic Association already has a policy laying out requirements under which transgender athletes may play in a girls sport or team.

Rep. Richard Brown (D-Canal Winchester) said, “This is not a real problem. This is made up, let’s feed red meat to the base issue.”

Rep. Beth Liston (D-Dublin) is also a pediatrics professor at Ohio States. She told WKSU’s statehouse bureau that the bill “didn’t make sense from a medical standpoint” and that it would “subject kids to undergo invasive tests to prove their gender.”

The bill next goes to the Senate, which will not be back in session until November. That should give them time to reconsider a bill that is not only an extreme assault on young transgender athletes, but on every young female athlete in the state. It’s an extreme invasion of privacy to come from the party of small government.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/sport/world-athletics-transgender-ruling-spt-intl/index.html


World Athletics (WA) announced new rules on Thursday impacting transgender women athletes, banning some from competing in female track and field events.

The announced regulations, which come into force on March 31, prohibit athletes who have gone through what WA called “male puberty” from participating in female world rankings competitions. WA said the exclusion would apply to “male-to-female transgender athletes who have been through male puberty.”

“Decisions are always difficult when they involve conflicting needs and rights between different groups, but we continue to take the view that we must maintain fairness for female athletes above all other considerations,” World Athletics president Sebastian Coe said in a statement.

and a tremendous step in the right direction to protect the safety and well being of
women and to ensure gender equity.

doesn't make clear

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

What does that say:

“we must maintain fairness for female athletes above all other considerations,” World Athletics president Sebastian Coe said in a statement.”

And ain’t shit you can do about it but be MAD and WRONG.

Decision is final

Period

very little known clause in the ruling

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

Is that a dumb question? What are the markers of having "gone through male puberty" that will always be present in a (potentially post-op) transgender person?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

The ruling implies that transgender men are perfectly fine to compete in sports. What's the difference?

Everyone is not okay with trans female athletes competing in sports especially white women. The Lia Thomas woke up everybody up so I'm fascinated by this situation because people are finally being real with their responses. They can't label everyone as transphobic like their operatives treat black men.

said mynoriti

actual GOP:
Kansas Republicans have successfully overridden the Governor veto to now authorize genital inspections of children in order for kids to play sports. A very dark & disturbing day.

it's not hypothetical and it never was.




www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

How many more states are going to do this before people understand that humiliating and marginalizing people is the point. And they're completely happy to have collateral damage of cis kids who don't look the way that reactionaries want. That's also part of the point.

fucking pedophiles.

i'm no lawyer so maybe one can speak on this, but it feels like all these wild fucking laws that the repugs are passing or are trying to pass are stomping all over people's constitutional liberties...so i assume these will be challenged heavily in court.

now, we are not in a great place w/ constitutional liberties either, so there's that, but all of this shit feels fucked.

>i'm no lawyer so maybe one can speak on this, but it feels
>like all these wild fucking laws that the repugs are passing
>or are trying to pass are stomping all over people's
>constitutional liberties...so i assume these will be
>challenged heavily in court.

For this moment.

thus my final sentence.

but like, come the fuck on.

Alls I was saying was that yea, they'll be challenged. But those challenges are likely to lose. Because of the aforementioned 5 decade project.

Not saying anything you don't know obviously.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-refuses-reinstate-west-virginia-ban-transgender/story?id=98412135&cid=social_twitter_abcn

don't wanna get too far ahead of ourselves, but...yeah.

goes without saying it's disgusting, but you getting to dunk on me is the important part, right?

>goes without saying it's disgusting, but you getting to dunk
>on me is the important part, right?

the important part is the kids who will be harmed.

that's who I had in mind when I started talking about it, that's who I have in mind now.

you're welcome to join in whenever you're ready


this isn't actually about you.


www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

there a lot of people in these trans debates who believe they can be as garbage as they want under the guise of protecting kids.

this includes you.

i haven't taken a "side" in this post because i don't have one other than i hate the way this stuff gets talked about. any questioning of trans athletes is anti-trans and you're in support of the most extreme case of it, even if it's something that hasn't actually happened.

same thing goes for any concerns about puberty blockers, self-id laws, any mention of de-transitioners, any possibility of social contagion... it's you're either lock-step, or you want to harm or kill trans children.
I understand the instinct, because there are obviously no shortage of bigots, and bad faith actors on this issue. but this isn't as good guys vs bad guys as you want to pretend it is

so yeah, i respectfully decline your invitation to "join" you or case_one, or allstah or anyone else who is convinced they're right on this topic.

because what you do and how you do it doesn't impact my views at all.

but you operate differently, and I assume that's why you read this post as being about you.

it's about the kids, and how they're being ignored by people and in this case you're one of those people but that's really just a coincidence.

who you are personally and how you operate has nothing to do with anything, and I'm not sure why you've decided that me being garbage (what'd I do again?) is somehow responsible for or related to your actions.

>but this isn't as good guys vs bad guys as you want to pretend it is

I think that people who want to do genital inspections on kids over sports are bad guys.

perhaps that's not centrist enough of a viewpoint for you but you could always say what is. (you won't.)

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

-pretending i said my views are shaped by you.

-framing it once again as you being the one who cares about the kids, and anyone with concerns about trans-athletes as being in favor of genital inspections.

-pretending *I* tried to make something about me, when it was a specific response to you typing my name.

good job. good effort.

and you couldn't.

you could've proven me wrong if you had the capability to do it, but you don't.

it's just not in you.

I quoted you bruv, so I cited the source of the quote. That does not make the quote the subject.

the subject is, and will ever be, the kids.

you can feel free to mention their needs for the first time ever in your next reply (you won't)

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

that's the tragic part

2 decades and you're still so bad at your thing.

genital inspections have not been "authorized". such genital inspections remain "hypothetical".

this is obviously a topic that gets people emotional. let's try to stick to the facts.

>actual GOP:
>Kansas Republicans have successfully overridden the Governor
>veto to now authorize genital inspections of children in order
>for kids to play sports. A very dark & disturbing day.
>
>it's not hypothetical and it never was.

source:
https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article274047620.html

quote:
"The text of the new law is pretty vague in terms of enforcement, so there’s a lot we don’t know yet — including how officials will determine whether a student athlete is transgender.

The law tasks the Kansas State High School Activities Association (KSHSAA) — a group responsible for administrating competition among Kansas high schools in both athletic and non-athletic activities — with establishing the specific enforcement guidelines that schools will need to implement.

WILL THE STATE INSIST ON INSPECTING STUDENTS’ GENITALIA?

Critics have suggested the ban’s vague language could leave room for invasive inspections of student athletes. It’s a critique of the bill that has been thrown around since it began gaining traction in 2021, but state officials have said genital inspections will play no role in the policy.

A similar bill in Ohio last year contained a “genital inspection” requirement that was later removed following public opposition. A similar provision was removed from a Florida bill in 2021.

Kansas’ new law contains no such provision.

Jeremy Holaday, a spokesman for KSHSAA, said that while no details of the enforcement plan have been discussed yet, invasive medical inspections are not likely."

text of the bill here: http://www.kslegislature.org/li/b2023_24/measures/documents/hb2238_enrolled.pdf

>but state officials have said
>genital inspections will play no role in the policy.
>
>A similar bill in Ohio last year contained a “genital
>inspection” requirement that was later removed following
>public opposition. A similar provision was removed from a
>Florida bill in 2021.
>
>Jeremy Holaday, a spokesman for KSHSAA, said that while no
>details of the enforcement plan have been discussed yet,
>invasive medical inspections are not likely."

Whew - all of that ^^^ is *very* reassuring.

LOL GTFFFFFFFFFOH.

Rjcc copy and pasted a tweet to the effect that gender inspections have been authorized. They have not.

The info in rjcc's reply went strongly against my expectations. So I spent 5 minutes reading and discovered he was posting false information.

As for your emotions...your need to be reassured and all that...get a fucking grip

https://mobile.twitter.com/Davis_Hammet/status/1643696444719628289

amazing research, rjcc.

I don't think the solution is necessarily the abolition of sports division based on biological sex.

Like we've managed to go a century without it, I just don't believe we have to accept genital inspection as a price for sports divided by biological sex. It's not inevitable and I feel good about the fight against legislators who want to inspect genital. Feels like the bathroom scare a few years ago where we thought we'd need ID cards to go the bathroom.

So my position is sports divided by biological sex that doesn't involve genital inspections.

But at any rate, I think its a good point and issue to be concerned about that needs to be addressed.

On the flipside, what's going to be done about this:

https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-sports/bearded-man-smashes-womens-weightlighting-record-held-by-trans-lifter/news-story/92986fdec0b7e855b8b6f6271d938e8d

This is also an obvious completely predictable result if you don't consider biological sex when you divide sports based on gender identity.

We ok with this?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

will always be some weirdo shit to me

get your transition on if that is how you feel or identify but the physical competition is wild disrespectful.

them: I feel like a woman
me: cool
them: and I want to compete against them to show who’s best
me: hold up… lol

>will always be some weirdo shit to me
>
>get your transition on if that is how you feel or identify but
>the physical competition is wild disrespectful.
>
>them: I feel like a woman
>me: cool
>them: and I want to compete against them to show who’s best
>me: hold up… lol
>


Men will not be allowed to "identify" as women and play women's sports in America. "Mainstream America" families will not allow this happen no matter how much Democrats, media, and Hollywood push on these messages. It would essentially kill women's sports. Don't confuse with someone properly transitioning to a woman and playing women's sports. That's another issue itself.

How do women feel about this identification issue? On the surface it looks like..... nevermind y'all cry about phobia this and blah blah blah that. If anyone can identify as and become a woman what's makes a woman besides biology/genetic makeup? Same goes for men. That's the situation y'all, people that are pro identifying, find yourselves in.

I never heard of on a continent I've never been to

competed over by people I don't know and have never met?

are you a big Australian powerlifting fan?

if you care about the integrity and opportunity available to women who powerlift in Australia I will not stand in your way of doing everything you can to protect it

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

"i don't care so it doesn't matter to anyone"

great job!

I don't assume that it doesn't.

does it matter to you?

who are some underrated Australian women powerlifters I should be aware of?

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at