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Forum nameGeneral Discussion
Topic subjectIf you want to be a Trump apologist, that's fine, but don't be this dumb about it.
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13318132&mesg_id=13322512
13322512, If you want to be a Trump apologist, that's fine, but don't be this dumb about it.
Posted by stravinskian, Tue Mar-26-19 12:35 PM
If you want to yell "THE MEDIA SAID FOR YEARS THAT TRUMP WAS COLLUDING WITH RUSSIA! FAKE NEWS!" then you can do that. Fox News would probably give you a platform for it. It wouldn't be true, of course, because the media *did not* say Trump colluded with Russia. The mainstream media said the issue was under investigation, which it was. It also mentioned that some amount of collusion (apparently not prosecutable) was already known: the "Russia, if you're listening" comments, which aren't very convincing, or the Trump Tower meeting, which was very serious but apparently not found to be part of an ongoing effort, or the ongoing plans for Trump Tower Moscow, which may also be quite serious, also involving the emoluments clause, and which are still under investigation by the Southern District of New York.

The media also said that obstruction of justice was occuring in plain view. That is also true, though apparently Barr and Rosenstein didn't think the justice department could or should make the case on that. We still don't know what further evidence for obstruction the Mueller report lays out, but there clearly was some, or else the report would have recommended against prosecuting for obstruction just as it did for conspiracy.

But you're not even making THOSE dumb arguments. You're making the argument so dumb that even the White House is smart enough to stay away from it. You're acting like the whole Russia story was invented. That's what Trump is personally trying to make people think, by empty innuendo, but it bears no relation to reality. From William Barr's OWN memo, which nobody takes to be impartial:

"The Special Counsel's investigation determined that there were two main Russian efforts to influence the 2016 election. The first involved attempts by a Russian organization, the Internet Research Agency (IRA), to conduct disinformation and social media operations in the United States designed to sow social discord, eventually with the aim of interfering with the election."

Next paragraph:

"The second element involved the Russian government's efforts to conduct computer hacking operations designed to gather and disseminate information to influence the election. The Special Counsel found that Russian government actors successfully hacked into computers and obtained emails from persons affiliated with the Clinton campaign and Democratic Party organizations, and publicly disseminated those materials through various intermediaries, including WikiLeaks. Based on these activities, the Special Counsel brought criminal charges against a number of Russian military officers for conspiring to hack into computers in the United States for purposes of influencing the election."

He then states, in both of these cases, that the investigation did not find evidence that the Trump campaign was working with these Russian entities, but that's an entirely separate question.

Russia DID interfere in the US election, specifically sowing social discord among conservatives AND progressives through social media and trolling. The Internet Research Agency had more people on staff than the entire Trump campaign. They also broke into the Democratic party (electronically). That is the same underlying crime as what started the Watergate scandal, and in this case, the break-in was far more consequential to the eventual election.

By pretending Russia didn't interfere in the election you're not being a left-wing radical or a free thinker, you're being a shill for our idiot right-wing authoritarian.