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Forum nameGeneral Discussion
Topic subjecta lot to process in this, not sure where to start.
Topic URLhttp://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=13225702&mesg_id=13225988
13225988, a lot to process in this, not sure where to start.
Posted by Mr. ManC, Mon Jan-15-18 03:08 PM
first, she is absolutely entitled to her experience and what she felt and perceived as a sexual assault. I am not trying to diminish her experience or be dismissive of it.

I think she was violated, but her violator isn't Aziz, directly, imo.

secondly, we have to restructure patriarchy and the rape culture that pits a man's virility versus a woman's virginity, and have it play out in some cat/mouse flirtations, when there are real emotions, consequences, decisions, pleasures, etc at stake. It can't just be consensual, it has to also be conscious.

looking at the date, and the nonverbal cues which went missed, there definitely has to be an onus on men to understand their proximity to power - even more so famous/more powerful than most men.

However, the work can't just be on men to do better. Much is required of us, but something is required of women as well *ducks*

hear me out: Aziz was at an event being Aziz, minding his business. A woman came to him looking to start conversation, which he initially brushed off. Some might consider this a nonverbal cue, but she interjected again. Eventually they struck up a convo about cameras, exchanged numbers, and then she went back to her date. All clear and good right? Fine.

This entire scenario had her empowered and outside of patriarchy (on face value). She was with a date, but pursued another interest. She initiated conversation and saw it through, and gave up her information. She was in control and has every right to do so.

She was semi direct. Then they texted back and forth for a bit, through who knows what was communicated, but then that lead to a date. A date filled with red flags of not picking up on non-verbal cues, but then also ended in the sexual dissatisfaction and remorse, and ultimate violation of what Grace hoped would transpire that day.

I am totally for us revolutionizing this paradigm and relationship with these type encounters, but long gone have to be the days on nonverbal cues being a protocol for dealing with matters this important. If we want different and better the expectation can't be for guys to just "get it". As loud as you want your nonverbal cues to be, they will also be drowned out by your physical acquiescence. These situations are (of course, for different reasons and dynamics) awkward for guys too. Had this not been Aziz and the famous component, I am not sure what her expectations would have been for the date, or if she would have felt more compelled to say "no" outright.

HOWEVER, I totally get that society has not put women in a position to say "no" in these circumstances, and that other factors contribute, and that she is not wrong or to be blamed, or complicit in this aspect. But if the ideal of equality and sexual liberation, protection, and the dismantling of patriarchy is the goal, then we all have to be in the driver's seat. You have to say "no", and then stop, and then walk away/leave. Otherwise, Aziz should have been strong enough to turn her away at the party? Or she should have taken that as a cue that she was barking up the wrong tree? Or any other critical or subsequent time that she could withdraw herself from the situation which made her uncomfortable? How else is anyone supposed to know?

Or maybe it IS because it is Aziz. And HE consciously is aware that this person who is pursuing him wants an association with him. And he can pursue his sexual agenda as well, I suppose....

He did some creep life stuff, indeed, but it seems his biggest verbal cue was "lets fuck, or something equivalent" and she wasn't all the way with it, but still wanted to be there. Maybe a compromise could exist in there somewhere, but again without the dialogue how is anyone to know?

I have had a discussion with my GF all morning about this, and SHE has convinced ME to this line of thinking. It's time to all be involved in this, imo.

I dunno.