Justified?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39413376

Three teenagers who broke into a home in Oklahoma were killed by the homeowner's son firing an assault-style AR-15, say police.
"They were dressed in black, all had masks on, and all had gloves on," Deputy Nick Mahoney told reporters.

The intruders - who police say were armed with brass knuckles and a knife - were shot by a 23-year-old man in an act of "self-defence", officers said.
The son may not face charges due to so-called stand your ground laws.
"This may be a case of 'stand-your-ground,' however, it's still too early to say for sure, and we're still looking into all aspects of this," Mr Mahoney told local media.
He was referring to the laws in some states that say a citizen can legally use lethal force if they feel that their life in is imminent danger.
Four 'stand your ground' cases in the US

Two of the teenagers died inside the home and one ran outside before dying in the driveway.

The teenagers broke through a sliding glass door in the back of the house before encountering the homeowner's adult son, who was armed with an AR-15 assault-style rifle, police say.

The man, who authorities say also lives at the address with his father, opened fire on the teens after they had a "short exchange of words".

Authorities say they have no reason to believe the home residents knew the teens.
Two of the teens are under 17 years old and one is between 18 and 19.

A fourth person has been arrested and is facing murder and burglary charges.
Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez, 21, turned herself in at the Broken Arrow police station and has admitted to serving as a getaway driver.

Nearby residents tell local media that there have been a string of burglaries in the area, but police have made no link.

imagine how great the country and perhaps world could be

regardless of how right or wrong dude was. There's only one demographic I see with a "family" of rifles window sticker variant

the rest is immaterial

ask Renisha McBride

.

*smirks*

the rest is immaterial

but jesus


you break into someones home...in the south of all places

you are likely to be shot and killed

>"They were dressed in black, all had masks on, and all had gloves
>on," Deputy Nick Mahoney told reporters.

>The intruders - who police say were armed with brass knuckles and a
>knife


Sounds like a good shoot. Don't want to get shot? Don't break into someone's house.

How'd it not end with get on the ground?

because these laws favor the shooter, but i agree. if you've confronted them w/ a gun such that there was enough time to exchange words then you could exchange, "get the fuck out of my house before i unload this clip on you" after which most smart people would turn and get the fuck outta there.

sounds like no one needed to die.

in that scenario...would you be "okay" with the dudes just jetting after they broke into your crib masked up? That's tricky to me. I mean, mowing them all down is not the next place you arrive at after..."stop right there"...but I def. just can't see them skating.

or while you yell and wake your dad who calls the police.

Let’s say he holds them at gunpoint and calls the cops.

How do they know those are the only intruders and someone else in the home isn’t lying in wait?

the point is the burden of having to deduce the nature and severity of imminent threat should not be placed on the inhabitant.

Holding them at gunpoint sounds good and well but it doesn't allow for variables. Shooting them guarantees those particular potential threats are eliminated and absolutely increases the odds in favor of the inhabitant.

What if there are three or more people in addition to the ones shot? It's a crapshoot regardless.

.

Cold truth stated it would absolutely change the outcome and I'm saying if the full extent of the threat is unknown that's still a gamble.

>Cold truth stated it would absolutely change the outcome and

Yeah, that didn't happen.

It says something that you have to literally make things up to support your premise.

the absolutely part is what I'm talking about

>the absolutely part is what I'm talking qabout

"Absolutely increases the odds" is a statement of probability.

That's a far cry from

Absolutely change the outcome", which we have no way of knowing.

Killing the three intruders you know about guarantees elimination of THOSE PARTICULAR POTENTIAL THREATS.

The absolutes there are the elimination of those threats and increased odds in favor of the inhabitants, not an absolute change in outcome.

Do you actually read all the words?

sometimes people misunderstand

>What if there are three or more people in addition to the
>ones shot? It's a crapshoot regardless.

There are so many problems with this logic there's no way you're being serious.

No fucking way.

"hold still while i call the police"

"fuck you"

"if you try to leave...i'll shoot"

"he cant shoot all of us"
*tries to leave*

*shoots all of them*

At the same time?

I mean, I hear what you guys are saying.

But I have a young child and my female SO at home. If I see someone in my house I WILL pump a few rounds into them, given the opportunity.

It's not my fault (or dudes) that someone BROKE INTO HIS HOUSE.

How hard is it to not break into someone's house carrying weapons and wearing masks? Or is that oppressive to their freedom (that's a joke, bruh, lol).

but, that's where my family sleeps. I can't imagine what kind of conversation I would engage in at that moment...seein cats dippin through my house in all black with masks on...I'd be trying to make sure they didn't get any closer to where my family was.

makes it sound like dude was just chilling with his AR on the couch watching duck dynasty wishing a fool would try some stuff

it's nightime, dark and they're all wearing black. maybe all in separate places in the house.

if i'm busy "exchanging words" with any one of the three, who may be closing distance rapidly on me in a confined space, the higher my chances of getting stabbed/disarmed altogether from the remaining two. even if i get shots off and catch one of 'em, that still leaves two to take me out.

niggas is acting like kevin spacey in the negotiator in here.

i'm asking questions later.

we know after the fact how many people were in the house, but all dude knew was there were a bunch of people in the house. He had to know he was outnumbered, but beyond that it's tough to say.

.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

Don't want to get shot, then don't break into someone's house.

.
.

Wake up, Pray! Go to work, Pray! Go home, Pray! Love, Pray! Eat, Pray! Live, Pray!

always been a shaky precedence but it's only a slight stretch from how it's normally applied

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

www.engadgethd.com - the other stuff i'm looking at

.

If you break into someone’s home you’re at their mercy.

It’s unreasonable to place any burden on the people in the home to deduce how much of a threat the intruders may or may not be, and YEP, that does include protecting their “stuff”. You break in to take their “stuff” and get got? Them’s the breaks.

Obviously I’d commend someone who had the restraint, strength, and, YEP, good faith not to put these dudes on ice but it’s unconscionable to condemn those who don’t.

I dunno about the rest of y'all, but if you are inside someone's home uninvited, i'm good with what happens to the invaders.


______________________________________________________________________________

cscpov.blogspot.com

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"

I own an AR myself and would have no problem using it if someone broke into my home.

because I pick and choose my fact patterns to get worked up about.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Obviously we're given a pretty limited set of facts, but damn, that sounds like some scary shit.

Imagine being home when 4 people dressed in black break into your home and have knives and knucks. You don't know how many there are or what weapons they have... If I had a gun, i'd probably be trying to lay 'em all down.

I'm not sure what the robbers intentions are either - i don't know if they are just some dummies looking for free stuff, or if they had actual bad intentions. Their choices of weapons leads me to believe that they were dumb, but also potentially dangerous. It's not worth losing your life over possessions, so I hate that it went down the way it did.

Dude that did the shooting now has to carry that weight, too. Good shooting or not, that's a heavy burden to bear.

Like, the odds of basically a kid whipping out the AR15 and taking out 3 baddies untrained only happens in Call of Duty. Homie had his pops AR15 lying around already loaded (or an already loaded clip close by) next to his bed while they were all loudly creeping around?

They were all teenagers or close to it; guaranteed they knew each other in small podunk town, USA. Not gonna say those kids ain't have it coming,but guaranteed the kid knew some shit was gonna pop and was ready. All I hope is that he aint start it and he's truly innocent and those kids were truly the badguys in this situation.

That seems to be the motivation for most of the targeted home invasions around here. Someone with a lot of cash and drugs in their house. The guys usually know each other, too (or are 1-degree separated).

The home owner was 23, and he probably WAS sitting around on some "I wish a mofo would." Maybe he got a tip, maybe he got a feeling, or maybe he saw them driving up the street. Shit, I know a dude that used to keep the K leaned on the wall right next to him (people tried to rob him in his house before... he used to hustle).

Anyway, none of that matters really, because once someone illegally enters someone's home then they are NOT the victim, and are out of excuses or loopholes.

Not gonna say that teenagers ain't the brightest of the bunch, and that this ain't a stupid idea some kids had while stoned/drinking that went wrong.

But everything just lines up too perfect on one side of the equation with the fact that the odds of everyone knowing each other to a certain degree is really high.

>Like, the odds of basically a kid whipping out the AR15 and
>taking out 3 baddies untrained only happens in Call of Duty.
>Homie had his pops AR15 lying around already loaded (or an
>already loaded clip close by) next to his bed while they were
>all loudly creeping around?
>

Kids learn about gun safety and trained to shoot at an early age. Dude probably has been hunting since he was old enough to hold a BB gun

>>Like, the odds of basically a kid whipping out the AR15 and
>>taking out 3 baddies untrained only happens in Call of Duty.
>
>>Homie had his pops AR15 lying around already loaded (or an
>>already loaded clip close by) next to his bed while they
>were
>>all loudly creeping around?
>>
>
>Kids learn about gun safety and trained to shoot at an early
>age. Dude probably has been hunting since he was old enough to
>hold a BB gun

You're running to engage in close quarter combat with basically a rifle?

The spread of the pellets and the kickback from the shotgun itself could make things a lot worst in a close range indoor situation, no?

If I'm wrong, please let me know gun owners that are here in this thread.

shotgun recoil is substantial, which equates to less time on target. Over-penetration would be an issue with any system, though.

As someone who grew up in the area this took place in and NOW lives in the South (Atlanta), I can safely say that most of Oklahoma and particularly the northeast corner is not the south, despite what idiot rebel flag waivers want to believe. It's the midwest or "southern plains".

and age in America you're a new born idiot. There a pretty good chance you're gonna get shot or Molly whopped.

I would've popped them too. I don't know the motives of any idiot breaking into my home. All I know is that my wife and kids are in there and need protection. Crooks would be leaving in body bags if it were left up to me.

I already had an issue where I walked out of my house 4:30 AM for work last year and saw some folks hurrying from my front yard into their car. That had me before to the point of going to work late while I crossed the neighborhood going to ensure that they wouldn't return to my home because my wife and kids were in the house asleep. I can't imagine how I would feel if someone actually broke into my home (God forbid) with my family in there.



Since 1976

and sat in the window all day like Malcolm. Geez. WTF is wrong with people?

....that some of the residents in their late teens and early twenties were playing Pokemon Go in the wee hours in the morning (this was last summer) and that was more than likely the case when I caught them in my yard. My subdivision has a FB page and some of the neighbors spoke on how the younger residents were playing the game real late night.

I made sure to mention how folks need to get their young'ns from using the neighborhood because the wrong person (especially if they've dealt with a break in while they were home, before) might be a little more twitchy about the incident due to thinking someone is attempting to break in, especially if they (house owner) have a gun.


Since 1976

If that is indeed what happened.

No sympathy for anyone breaking into a person's house in the middle of the night. Don't know, don't care what your motives are. No warning shots, no aiming at the legs, not taking the time to find out what you're doing and what kind of weapons you have.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/829/979/307.gif

i can see how the shooting is justified, and feel empathy for the shooter.

But i can also recognize the tragedy of bad decision making that led to people losing their lives over stuff. It's not something to celebrate.

especially because young people are stupid as fuck, think they are invincible and probably never thought in a million years they could DIE.

i mean, we're talking about teens here. i don't like to see young life snuffed out. i'd rather they learned a lesson. now they are just dead.

this is harsh but that's just me.

I'm pretty sure I'd be fucked up after something like this. I won't try to speak for J, but I agree with the last part 1000000%:

" Don't know, don't care what your motives are. No warning shots, no aiming at the legs, not taking the time to find out what you're doing and what kind of weapons you have."

of course, if you had to pull the trigger and some people died, you would feel horrible. It would suck for some dumb teenagers to be killed, but it would still be their fault. Catching someone breaking into a person's house is one of the most traumatic experiences ever, whether the assailants know it or not, they are real terrorists. I'd be mad at the people for putting me in a situation where I had to kill them.

I'm in my 40's and growing up, everyone seemed to know that was one of the most dangerous crimes you could commit and you were risking your life by doing it. I've seen a couple of movies in the last year where the protagonists were breaking into someone's house to rob them, and the person ended up being a psycho that did horrible stuff, still their fault!

Who sleeps with a fully loaded AR-15 near their bed every night?

He has enough accuracy to wake up in his draws, stalk home invaders and kill them. He could've used any Glock available but chose an AR-15. This situation requires an intense investigation because it is really fishy.

White people are so concerned about home invasion that they have military or police arsenals ready for the BS.

>Who sleeps with a fully loaded AR-15 near their bed every
>night?

After I bought my first firearm, I got on a forum like ours but it was all about guns. Someone did a "What's in your wallet?" type post about what folks keep for home defense.

I saw an awful lot of suburban bedrooms, nightstands and closets with AR-15 style joints on/in them. Do not sleep.

______________________________________________________________________________

cscpov.blogspot.com

"There's a fine line between persistence and foolishness..."
-unknown

"To Each His Reach"

Nothing fishy about that at all. Some folks really train extensively with their weapons just in case something goes down. Besides, it's not like dude went to their homes and started trouble with them. They shouldn't have gone to where they didn't belong.


Since 1976

This is overkill to the extreme.

wtf

AR15 is in the top 3 or 5 guns

.

The dude in this story privileged as shit and does not need to sleep with a fully loaded AR-15. SMH at sleeping with $1,000+ weapon because of white fear.

how do u not know this about this glorious place

So I'm not sure Nas was being entirely truthful.

It's almost like you didn't even read the Ether post!

Haha

.

and they AREN'T gun nuts. Gun culture is real out here.....people collect guns.

I don't know who we're supposed to be fighting with all of these guns but I'm sure we'll win.

I think that statement would qualify them as gun nuts.

a home AR is essentially a shorter M16...almost like an M4...all three fire the same 5.56 round. I carried an M4 in Iraq...the stock can collapse to make it pretty fuckin short. Before we were deployed, our armory was going to issue us M16s, even though they had a grip of M4s...we complained like shit to our 1st Sgt. and eventually, they switched. If this dude went to the range and practiced with that weapon, it wasn't shit for him to hit those dudes up in his house.

That's my issue; if those kids got shot with a handgun or a shotgun id have an easier time believing it.

I get gun culture; girlfriend's fam are huge gun nuts and I was shooting AR15's and Mossbergs up with em a couple of months ago. But those were put away when we got home with smaller/easier to use handguns and cheaper shotguns around for home protection.

Not saying its not possible, but my spidey sense is hella tingling.

The scene where they try to rob a bank and every mother fucker in there is strapped and ITCHING to draw and fire on someone? That's where gun culture has gotten us now and it's real. "Just give me a reason" is the mantra of these over-armed shitheads. 3 dumb teens gave him a (exaggerated) reason.

____________

Dallas Cavericks LETS GO!!

Break in someone's home with mask and shit on imma pop you too.

https://media.giphy.com/media/v9rfTQBNqdsSA/giphy.gif

Since 1976

.

the story is suspect.

He shot two in the kitchen and one was in the driveway.

.

Imm say it now

1)They all know each other
2)Those kids came over for more then a simple random burglary (someone owed someone money, someone fucked someone's SO, someone fucked with someone).
3)Homie knew before hand what was going to happened (shit, maybe he even set up them breaking into the house)
4)He prepared himself so that way if something popped off he was going to kill them.

or do you think the shooter had a brief convo, started shooting and one of the intruders crawled to the driveway ?

>or do you think the shooter had a brief convo, started
>shooting and one of the intruders crawled to the driveway ?

An article I read yesterday said that one of the intruders was shot in the house an managed to make it as far as the driveway before he died.

Also, the intruders were in all black, with masks & gloves.

From the information given in the news so far, this was absolutely justified. Whether he knew them or not is irrelevant if they broke into his home.

and some of the other replies that question this story ?


> An article I read yesterday said that one of the intruders
>was shot in the house an managed to make it as far as the
>driveway before he died.
>

That's possible

> Also, the intruders were in all black, with masks & gloves.
>
> From the information given in the news so far, this was
>absolutely justified. Whether he knew them or not is
>irrelevant if they broke into his home.
>
>

If he knew them it could have been a setup or something else so it is relevant.

>If he knew them it could have been a setup or something else
>so it is relevant.

Whether he knew them and whether it's a setup are 2 separate things. If he knew them and they broke into his home in the middle of the night, the shooting is still justified.

Let's say they had beef over something and he had an idea that they might try something. He keeps his gun by his bed just in case. If they break in and he shoots, he's still justified.

If he invited them over to hang out & they're chillin' on the couch when he shot them, then that sounds like murder. The fact that they had on all black, masks & gloves makes me think that they weren't invited over. The getaway driver was also arrested.

Based on what we know, this guy was justified. It's a sad story but I'm not mad at him.

Consider the age range.

Lets say the shooter borrowed one of the other ones PS4 and refused to return it. So they were like fuck it, snuck in, they exchanged words because he knew who they were, and was like fuck it and opened fire anyway even though he knew in the back of his head they were harmless and had no guns.

It may be 'legal' but its fucked up.

My thing is that this is way too cowboy with the bad guys getting their just deserts and the good guy being a hero. Not saying its impossible for three inept teenagers to randomly case out and break into the 'wrong' house and pay for it, but this thing stinks.

>Consider the age range.
>
>Lets say the shooter borrowed one of the other ones PS4 and
>refused to return it. So they were like fuck it, snuck in,
>they exchanged words because he knew who they were, and was
>like fuck it and opened fire anyway even though he knew in the
>back of his head they were harmless and had no guns.

I think one kid had a knife and another had brass knuckles. But how would the shooter know that they are unarmed? If you break into my crib at night, you're a danger to me right then & there.

>It may be 'legal' but its fucked up.
>
>My thing is that this is way too cowboy with the bad guys
>getting their just deserts and the good guy being a hero. Not
>saying its impossible for three inept teenagers to randomly
>case out and break into the 'wrong' house and pay for it, but
>this thing stinks.

It's definitely a terrible situation. But I can't think of too many defenses for breaking into someone's house at night with masks & gloves on. And if it's my home, I'm not going to pussyfoot around to see what you're intentions are.

>
> Whether he knew them and whether it's a setup are 2 separate
>things. If he knew them and they broke into his home in the
>middle of the night, the shooting is still justified.

Not really separate. If he knew them it makes this messy, raises questions.

> Let's say they had beef over something and he had an idea
>that they might try something. He keeps his gun by his bed
>just in case. If they break in and he shoots, he's still
>justified.

Laying in wait is not self defense. If it happen the way he said where he heard a noise got up, confronted them, and shot them that's one thing but a brief exchange, two die in the kitchen one outside.

> If he invited them over to hang out & they're chillin' on
>the couch when he shot them, then that sounds like murder. The
>fact that they had on all black, masks & gloves makes me think
>that they weren't invited over. The getaway driver was also
>arrested.

Yeah according to the article below the driver may known the homeowner.

> Based on what we know, this guy was justified. It's a sad
>story but I'm not mad at him.

Based on this guy's version.

>> Whether he knew them and whether it's a setup are 2
>separate
>>things. If he knew them and they broke into his home in the
>>middle of the night, the shooting is still justified.
>
>Not really separate. If he knew them it makes this messy,
>raises questions.

They could have been his best friends since birth. They could have been family from out of town. That doesn't matter. If they broke into the house, he has a right to protect himself. A CNN article stated that Oklahoma allows homeowners to presume that someone who breaks into your house means to harm you. Once you break into someone else's home, you're considered a threat to them.

>> Let's say they had beef over something and he had an idea
>>that they might try something. He keeps his gun by his bed
>>just in case. If they break in and he shoots, he's still
>>justified.
>
>Laying in wait is not self defense. If it happen the way he
>said where he heard a noise got up, confronted them, and shot
>them that's one thing but a brief exchange, two die in the
>kitchen one outside

Living in your own home isn't laying in wait. Remember, these kids came to his house & broke in. He wasn't waiting outside their school for them or casing their homes.

>> Based on what we know, this guy was justified. It's a sad
>>story but I'm not mad at him.
>
>Based on this guy's version.

I'm not a gun nut or anything. But I believe that people do have the right to protect themselves. If you break into someone's home (at night, in masks & gloves), you're a threat to them.

>
>>> Whether he knew them and whether it's a setup are 2
>>separate
>>>things. If he knew them and they broke into his home in the
>>>middle of the night, the shooting is still justified.
>>
>>Not really separate. If he knew them it makes this messy,
>>raises questions.
>
> They could have been his best friends since birth. They
>could have been family from out of town. That doesn't matter.
>If they broke into the house, he has a right to protect
>himself. A CNN article stated that Oklahoma allows homeowners
>to presume that someone who breaks into your house means to
>harm you. Once you break into someone else's home, you're
>considered a threat to them.

Nah it has to meet certain standards, the law says a person "engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, occupied vehicle, or place of business to further an unlawful activity" cannot use defensive force and avoid prosecution. That's just one example.


>>> Let's say they had beef over something and he had an idea
>>>that they might try something. He keeps his gun by his bed
>>>just in case. If they break in and he shoots, he's still
>>>justified.
>>
>>Laying in wait is not self defense. If it happen the way he
>>said where he heard a noise got up, confronted them, and
>shot
>>them that's one thing but a brief exchange, two die in the
>>kitchen one outside
>
> Living in your own home isn't laying in wait. Remember,
>these kids came to his house & broke in. He wasn't waiting
>outside their school for them or casing their homes.
>

I said laying in wait because you said "he had an idea they might try something" which is different from some random burglar breaking in. Just responding to the example you gave.

>>> Based on what we know, this guy was justified. It's a sad
>>>story but I'm not mad at him.
>>
>>Based on this guy's version.
>
> I'm not a gun nut or anything. But I believe that people do
>have the right to protect themselves. If you break into
>someone's home (at night, in masks & gloves), you're a threat
>to them.

The article I read said it was 12:30 pm, but I have no problem with someone protecting family, I just question whether this story is true.

She called the homeowner by first name....

http://ktul.com/news/local/woman-arraigned-for-involvement-in-wagoner-county-home-invasion-triple-homicide

WAGONER COUNTY, Okla. (KTUL) — The arraignment for a woman arrested Monday after a home invasion turned deadly was postponed Tuesday while the investigation continues.

Elizabeth Marie Rodriguez, 21, was arrested on a probable cause affidavit for three counts of first-degree murder, one count of first-degree burglary and one count of second-degree burglary. According to the affidavit, Rodriguez admitted to dropping the suspects off at the house and fleeing when she heard gunshots. Hours after the shooting she went to the Broken Arrow Police Department, saying she had information on the case.

Rodriguez's arraignment was scheduled for 1 p.m. at the Wagoner County Courthouse but the judge postponed the hearing because the investigation is ongoing and the District Attorney's Office has yet to see the report. A bond has not been set.

Early Monday afternoon, Wagoner County deputies responded to a report of a home invasion near 91st and Clearview Drive where shots had also been fired. They found three dead burglary suspects when they arrived.

Investigators say two of the suspects were armed and all three arrived at the house wearing black clothing, masks and gloves.

The homeowner's 23-year-old son, Zach Peters, told deputies he encountered the suspects after they broke in through a glass door on the back side of the house. After exchanging words, Peters opened fire.

Investigators say they don't believe the suspects had any connection to Peters, but a witness referenced in the probable cause affidavit said Rodriguez had previous knowledge of the house and called the homeowner by his first name.

The affidavit goes on to say Rodriguez planned the burglary, taking the suspects to the home on two separate occasions prior to Monday's break-in.

Aside from Rodriguez, the suspects' have been identified as Maxwell Cook, 19, Jacob Redfern 17, and 16-year-old Jaykob Woodriff.

At a news conference Tuesday afternoon, investigators said they are still trying to confirm the suspects' identities but they have tentatively notified family members.
The Wagoner County District Attorney's Office will determine whether Peters is charged, but a spokesman for the sheriff's office said Monday the preliminary investigation showed it was likely self-defense.

Formal charges for Rodriguez aren't expected until late this week or early next week.

>Hours after the shooting she went to the Broken Arrow Police Department, saying she had information on the case

they gonna throw her ass away.

break in my house, I'm letting shots rang out. I refuse to take any chances with my family's lives in my own home

That goes for cops also. Break in my spot and not acknowledge yourselves as police.

caught this fool breaking into my neighbors car, went to the safe and grabbed the revolver (don't like looking for shell casings that you get with a pistol), creeped up on buddy from behind and let him know his life was in my hands and I want him to alive to see the cops...

A basic help me help you situation

I'm all about minorities exercising their 2nd amendment: as long we remain citizens of this country and the amendment is on the books, don't let it go to waste.