http://kinfolkkollective.com/2016/03/21/you-gon-learn-today-on-the-revocation-of-white-privilege-in-north-korea/

You Gon’ Learn Today: On the Revocation of White Privilege in North Korea
Posted on March 21, 2016 by LaSha Standard

“That’s what the hell he gets. Good for him!” My mother had uttered those words in her typical matter-of-fact tone one morning as she watched the news. “He” was Michael Fay, an 18-year-old from Ohio who had confessed to vandalizing cars in Singapore, and was subsequently sentence to six lashes from a rattan cane. I was in sixth grade and all I could imagine was how horrible the pain would be. My mother was unmoved at the thought, remarking, “He earned that.”

I thought about my mother’s words a few days ago while watching video of 21-year-old Otto Warmbier, another man from Ohio who last week was convicted of subversion for stealing a propaganda banner in North Korea, and sentenced to 15 years hard labor. Just as in Fay’s case, I was shocked by the severity of the punishment. I’ve tried to imagine spending a decade and a half performing what the North Korean state deems hard labor and I can’t. But I’m not 11 anymore, and now, my mother’s callous reaction to Micahel Fay’s sentence is my reaction to another young white man who went to an Asian country and violated their laws, and learned that the shield his cis white male identity provides here in America is not teflon abroad.

As shocked as I am by the sentence handed down to Warmbier, I am even more shocked that a grown man, an American citizen, would not only voluntarily enter North Korea but also commit what’s been described a “college-style prank.” That kind of reckless gall is an unfortunate side effect of being socialized first as a white boy, and then as a white man in this country. Every economic, academic, legal and social system in this country has for more than three centuries functioned with the implicit purpose of ensuring that white men are the primary benefactors of all privilege. The kind of arrogance bred by that kind of conditioning is pathogenic, causing its host to develop a subconscious yet no less obnoxious perception that the rules do not apply to him, or at least that their application is negotiable.

Headline after headline has highlighted that Otto Warmbier is a student. His Linkedin profile states that he is majoring Economics with a minor in Global Sustainability and is a Managing Director of an “alternative investment fund.” A man reared in this country who studies the globe as a part of his higher education curriculum must have been at least passingly aware of the notoriously strained relationship between the United States and North Korea. Surely he had read the stories of Jeffrey Fowle and Matthew Miller, other white American men arrested in North Korea for “petty crimes” who were subsequently sentenced to hard labor.

Yeah, I’m willing to bet my last dollar that he was aware of the political climate in that country, but privilege is a hell of a drug. The high of privilege told him that North Korea’s history of making examples out of American citizens who dare challenge their rigid legal system in any way was no match for his alabaster American privilege. When you can watch a white man who entered a theatre and killed a dozen people come out unscathed, you start to believe you’re invincible. When you see a white man taken to Burger King in a bulletproof vest after he killed nine people in a church, you learn that the world will always protect you.

Coming from a country filled with citizens who lambaste black victims of state sanctioned violence by telling us that if we obey the law, we wouldn’t have to face the consequences, Warmbier should’ve listened. If he had obeyed North Korea’s laws, he would be home now. In fact, if he had heeded the US Department of State’s strong advisement against travel to North Korea, he would be home right now. And if Eric Garner is to be blamed for his own death for selling loose cigarettes or if Sandra Bland is dead because she failed to signal when changing lanes, then Otto Warmbier is now facing a decade and a half of hard labor because he lacked both good judgment and respect for the national autonomy of a country which has made its hatred for and vendetta against America unequivocally clear.

And while I don’t blame his parents for pressuring the State Department to negotiate his release, I wonder where they were when their son was planning a trip to the DPRK. Didn’t they impress upon him the hostile climate that awaited him? Didn’t they rear him to respect law and order? Did they not teach him the importance of obeying authority?

What a mind-blowing moment it must be to realize after 21 years of being pedestaled by the world simply because your DNA coding produced the favorable phenotype that such favor is not absolute. What a bummer to realize that even the State Department with all its influence and power cannot assure your pardon. What a wake-up call it is to realize that your tears are met with indifference.

As I’ve said, living 15 years performing manual labor in North Korea is unimaginable, but so is going to a place I know I’m unwelcome and violating their laws. I’m a black woman though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it.

Like I'd have expected to see that photo of dude eating a whopper in cuffs and a vest all over the Internet.

What part of killing 9 people in a church earns you fucking Burger King? They shouldn't have given him gum

did you read what the judge said about his family ?

so they grabbed him something from the closest place that was open. Folks tend to think they brought him the paper crown and tray mats with the coloring activities.

"I said wit' cheese!"

Cop went and put cheese on that whopper tho. And got him some fries.

Because I've seen pictures of Muhammad & Malvo & Colin Ferguson & shit I guess

I chose to never talk about it on twitter because I didn't want to appear to discredit the whole issue but all the false equivalences irked the shit out of me

What's petty?

Somehow that seems to be the tone of the article and I say that as someone not really shedding tears for this kid but also not happy about his (or his family's) predicament.

"The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality..."


>Somehow that seems to be the tone of the article and I say
>that as someone not really shedding tears for this kid but
>also not happy about his (or his family's) predicament.

i.e. Dylan Roof

is indeed the point in this article I knew this person was highly self absorbed & dependent on her identity to the point she was unable to find anything to sympathize with in another's pain simply because of his identity

Its childish & petty

White Privilege

>is indeed the point in this article I knew this person was
>highly self absorbed & dependent on her identity to the point
>she was unable to find anything to sympathize with in
>another's pain simply because of his identity
>
>Its childish & petty


Setting the bar really high, don't lower it.

& unable to feel empathy for someone not like herself the author was


I assume she's young, brash but inexperienced & lives in some sort of pseudo academic bubble

The idea that it was inherent feelings of privilege that made him think he could get away with it & not just pure foolishness could be true but you have to assume a lot & then you have to further translate those assumptions into partying over someone doing 15 years hard labor in North Korea as some bizarre form of racial justice

conclusions about her and the article off that. If you set the bar high for her you can't lower it for yourself. Where is your empathy for her ?


>& unable to feel empathy for someone not like herself the
>author was
>
>
>I assume she's young, brash but inexperienced & lives in some
>sort of pseudo academic bubble

I doubt it.

One of the most maddening things about Black folks sharing their experiences of racism is that white folks often just don't trust that Black folks are telling the truth about what they face

Many seem to just assume that these things are made up or exaggerated & just don't just or won't trust the overwhelming amount of experiences Black folks have shared

the CRM knew this, that's why they wanted the TV cameras to show white America the hoses & dogs

But in *this* piece the young lady did not share any of her personal experiences

And i will work with the assumption that 15 years hard labor is very hard for anyone to deal with, bro or no bro

"brash but inexperienced & lives in some
>sort of pseudo academic bubble "


>But in *this* piece the young lady did not share any of her
>personal experiences


Almost the first thing she said was

"I could imagine was how horrible the pain would be"

when she mentioned the other case where the white guy got lashes.

>And i will work with the assumption that 15 years hard labor
>is very hard for anyone to deal with, bro or no bro

He will not do 15 years.

i was instructed to assume that what she has faced is obviously comparable to this guys specific struggle

Perhaps she could have given some details & specifics & I certainly would have trusted that she was being true

when you said she was

"highly self absorbed & dependent on her identity..."

"brash,inexperienced" living in a pseudo academic bubble.

>i was instructed to assume that what she has faced is
>obviously comparable to this guys specific struggle
>
>Perhaps she could have given some details & specifics & I
>certainly would have trusted that she was being true

She gave you all the details you need with this paragraph

"The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for help."

Group of people into one convenient unworthy of empathy into one pile

Its called profiling

"I knew this person was highly self absorbed & dependent on her identity to the point she was unable to find anything to sympathize with in another's pain simply because of his identity

Its childish & petty"


brash, inexperienced

It reads like the thoughts of someone with little experience beyond her bubble of self congratulatory racial consciousness

Someone who assumes the pain of others is not only unworthy of her sympathy but sometime to celebrate as some twisted form of karmic justice for the white man

if you ignored everything that challenged it.


>It reads like the thoughts of someone with little experience
>beyond her bubble of self congratulatory racial consciousness
>

No, it was researched and supported. Her points were backed up with facts. You did not provide anything except opinion and you admit it's just an assumption.

>Someone who assumes the pain of others is not only unworthy of
>her sympathy but sometime to celebrate as some twisted form of
>karmic justice for the white man
>

No all of that is extra from you.

she's not exactly open to dialogue

I mean if she's not young she sure types like it

internet is proof of something. You really want to stay with that ?

Keep deflecting

but if you want to go down this path.

>Keep deflecting

You assume she is

"highly self absorbed & dependent on her identity..."
"brash,inexperienced" living in a pseudo academic bubble
not open to dialogue

because she types young in her comment section. The place where crackpots are making ridiculous counter arguments.

Her daily reality is in a work camp?

She said he now knows her daily reality. I wonder how she managed to sneak off to a computer to type that.

I wonder if she thinks the NBA is the equivalent of plantation slavery too.

There’s a valid sentiment in there, but she missed the boat in a big way.

It’s the same mentality expressed when a white person is unjustly convicted of, well, anything, or when a man is falsely accused of rape.

This doesn’t balance the scales in any way. Oppression of anyone is just that: more oppression. Injustice is injustice and should be viewed as just that, an injustice. Adding more injustice to the privileged group doesn’t lessen injustice toward a less privileged group. The fact that black males in America are treated unjustly and disproportionately punished by our legal system doesn’t make this punishment of a white male at the hands of North Korea acceptable.

Her whole ideology is counterproductive. If anything this should be used to shine a light on parallels here on American soil. I understand the sentiment here, but it’s terribly misguided.

I know it’s the family gimmick to cherry pick statements and present them completely out of context so I’ll give you a pass.

miss this part?

"The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it."


>I know it’s the family gimmick to cherry pick statements
>and present them completely out of context so I’ll give you
>a pass.

You just did the same thing with your, is she writing from a work camp comment.

They would do the same to anybody else of any color. And have.

There's something like a million white people in jail in the US. We don't think their cries for help go unheard?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

who is they in reply 27 ?

>They would do the same to anybody else of any color. And
>have.


Did you read the link in topic ?

If your answer is yes, did you understand it ?

It's an application of idealogy that does not apply. Not to mention being factually wrong (it wasn't a frat-prank and he was not 'unwelcome' in NK).

Your reply had nothing to do with what she did write.

>It's an application of idealogy that does not apply. Not to
>mention being factually wrong (it wasn't a frat-prank and he
>was not 'unwelcome' in NK).


She got a few things wrong but she was right about the big picture.

because it's necessary to be true for her alleged parellel to exist. Namely....that he is now experiencing what black people in America do on a regular basis:

The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it.

In order for that parallel to be true....Warmbier's race would have to be relevant in his punishment. It's not. So there's an underlying assumption she's using that the North Koreans are doing this because he's white. They're not. There are South Koreans being held in work camps for similar offences.

So there's an underlying assumption she's using that the North Koreans
>are doing this because he's white. They're not. There are
>South Koreans being held in work camps for similar offences.

She's drawing a parallel between how he must be feeling and how she feels on daily basis. He feels helpless because he's in a country where the government doesn't care about his feelings/situation. She's in a country where the government doesn't care about hers. That's the parallel she's drawing.

that she can even come CLOSE to how he's feeling. Is she even IN an American jail? He's gonna serve 15 years of hard labour....in the most brutal, heavy-handed dictatorship in the WORLD.....for stealing a sign.

Here she is opining on the internet. Did she write this piece before or after lunch? lol Paralleling her experience with him? How idealogical can you get?

She doesn't 'get it' and neither does anyone else here. If she did...she wouldn't offer disguised faux-empathy which in reality is prejudiced judgment.

she's just a Black woman what would she know. Let the white man tell her what and who to compare her experience too.

Either way im not going back n forth with u anymore.

>because it's necessary to be true for her alleged parellel to
>exist. Namely....that he is now experiencing what black
>people in America do on a regular basis:

He is

>The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily
>reality living in a country where white men like him are
>willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit
>in maintaining the power structures which ensure their
>supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of
>a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it.

Did you miss that last sentence ?

>In order for that parallel to be true....Warmbier's race would
>have to be relevant in his punishment. It's not. So there's
>an underlying assumption she's using that the North Koreans
>are doing this because he's white. They're not. There are
>South Koreans being held in work camps for similar offences.

No it wouldn't. When she said this

"He is now an outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for help."

that was enough. She is not saying North Korea is doing this because he is white she is saying Blacks in America face the same kind of justice system in America that Warmbier is facing in NK. While his white privilege protects him in America, that's not the case in NK.

Any further correspondence will happen only after you stop being a coward and use your real login, mr/mrs alias.

Otherwise, happy Troll Day and all but I won’t be participating.

It's not often that I get offended by anti-white sentiments here. Cheering on white people dying of opiate addiction and stuff like this are the only examples where the head that rears is so ugly to me.

I'm out too.

>Any further correspondence will happen only after you stop
>being a coward and use your real login, mr/mrs alias.
>

This is my login, drop the paranoia and come down off your white high horse.

>Otherwise, happy Troll Day and all but I won’t be
>participating.
>

Thank you for announcing you will not participate.

He's receiving the sentence they'd give to anyone.
Nobody made a false accusation against this dude or treated him unequally.

let's stop playing coy

just like anyone else who commits crime in N. Korea. Oh the oppression.

It’s completely disingenuous.

I’m always game for a healthy disagreement but you’re taking such an intentionally dishonest tact it’s not really worth discussing.

So, no it's not worth it.

The whole world is interpreted through a very specific lens.

LMAO!!!! Is 15 years hard labor a little excessive for sneaking in North Korea and trying to steal a poster as proof that you were there...

HELL NAW!!!! ITS NORTH KOREA!!!!! YOU DUMB IDIOT!!!!!!

This regime has been in power for a long time. I watched Kimjongilia! I wouldn't fuck with the North Koreans if I were paid to do so. So this idiot, thought he could get off with a "I'm a young white male who was just trying to prove that I'm ballsy enough to sneak into a country that hates our country and steal a poster, and they would let me off with a slap on the wrist".

Dumb fuck.

And, yes, I find this shit absolutely hilarious!!!! Never mind the fact that he could have started an international incident all because of it...

LOL! And, America doesn't negotiate with North Korea. So, he's just going to have to take that shit. Yes, his white privilege got him nowhere. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! Sorry, this will always be funny as fuck!

You actually think this goes on in a white person's mind. 'I'm a white male....I'll just get a slap on the wrist'.

Apparently he was offered a $10,000 car from someone at his church for bringing back a sign. So that was his motive. His ignorance is probably not realizing that the punishment would be so severe. People of all races try to make money from doing illegal things without realizing the harshness of the penalties inherent. Does a crackdealer who's unaware of the particularly harsh penalties for crack possession DESERVE said penalty because of his ignorance?

How does your brain jump to the most seemingly illogical straw-men arguments so frequently? Is it only to justify your points?

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

That it existed in the first place. Koreans are ultra proud of their race and purity and I believe they've never been colonized by the British.

.

This ended exactly how many people thought it would have ended.

???

to compare that to 15 years of forced labor in North Korea. So dumb.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

he's not stuck in a North Korean work camp

forms of punishment than what you would get here. I was pretty young when that whole thing happened but I remember everyone being like "holy shit, he's getting beaten for THAT!?"

(Although, imo, I'd rather have lashes with a cane than a fine over $5,000)

But to be clear, she isn't saying that getting hit with a cane = 15 years. More that it was some "oh, you thought you were gonna get a fine - jokes on you!" type shit.

flocking to their defense.

#neverforgetthatdumbfuckingbullshit

sure privilege played a part in him doing this dumb shit, whether it's white privilege, rich kid privilege, American privilege, or all of the above..

but she doesn't "get" what he's feeling because of who she is, just like whenever he gets out he won't have any greater understanding of her daily struggles because of what happened to him

their situations aren't remotely comparable no matter how she tries to word it.

i rather be a gangster of love

don't matter if the nigga was richie rich, certain shit no humans should be subjected to.

i could never rejoice in no shit like that.

unless it was trump. or a cho-mo.

So a lot of people are shrugging.

Expecting blacks who deal with white bullshit regularly and see near ubiquitous hate for us to eternally turn the other cheek? The height of white privilege.

Akin to not turning the other cheek?

Wtf? She makes a connection to all the black people murdered by police who are victimed blamed. Yeah after so many of those stories and so many of those "should have obeyed the law", a black person might smile when a white person who thought they could get away with some shit, the world obviously taught them they must be able to get away with, fails

That kid not even dead. But y'all expect this black lady to cry for him when the us has all these black people disproportionately locked up? It's not all about white feelings, philpot gotdamn some people are going to be understandbly angry hurt and resentful

But she chose to write an article dancing on this guy's mistake & punishment under the assumption he earned it via his cocky whiteness

basically it's the same as partying over Zachary Hammond being killed by the cops (and fwiw BLM we're the ones who exposed his murder to the country, they didn't write his name out of the anti police brutality movement bc he was white & buying weed)

I mean would that be cool to you? On some LOL THAT WHITE BOY WANTED SOME WEED AND THOUGHT THE COPS WOULDN'T KILL HIM JUST BECAUSE HE'S WHITE & THOUGHT HIS PRIVILEGE WOULD PROTECT HIM

How about if the cops just start killing & brutalizing more white people to make things even? Is that justice?

like you said, BLM told that kid's story even though he was white. But a random black lady with a blog might "party" when a white kid goes to north korea and tries to still some shit and gets hard time, cause what the fuck would make him think he could get away with that


a white kid getting killed by an off duty cop while trying to buy weed is fucking nothing like this

so why wouldn't one assume as well that Zachary had his privilege in mind when he thought he could get away with an illegal act?

I mean I hate UVA bros probably more than anyone you've ever met, trust me, but the whole celebratory tone is just, as I originally said, petty

Thats it...not evil, not despicable... just petty as fuck

I mean, I got slammed face first into pavement & put in a choke hold by 2 diesel cops myself...maybe I thought they wouldn't do me like that since I was white & I ran my mouth & they sonned me...shit still ain't funny tho, I thought I was gonna die in that choke hold

I'm not trying to crucify you...but I am curious if you regret saying this now.

Cops were created to brutalize black people

The answer to a Donald Trump isn't a black Trump, but MLK-like morally superior world view.

And that's not a only a morally superior stance, that'a s practical stance. MLK framed it "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere", not just because it sounds clever but because in order for justice for black people to prevail, we needed everyone including non-black people to see black injustice as an affront to them as well.

You know what, I shouldn't have to explain this very basic shit to grown folks.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

So as long as that is nurtured by the dynamics of the culture methodically designed to do so we as black people can expect there to be no justice coming from them.

you can't build a bridge to an island you aren't wanted on

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

It was coincidental to come across this because my SO and I had a long talk about this yesterday. She was basically saying that she feels a certain way in finding herself agreeing with media outlets and pundits she would traditionally be opposed to and that it's happening more and more. We talked about how there are new battlelines being drawn right now.

The alt-right, SJW's, Trump supporters and critical post-modernists are on one side. Traditional liberals and centrist conservatives are on the other. The former is guided by their particular agenda at the expense of everything else and have discarded the notion of objective truth....the latter is guided by principles. The former sees the world in an extremely lazy reductionist simplicity. The latter sees the world as a complex and chaotic interaction of many, often competing dynamics.

It certainly is making for strange bedfellows. I don't like it either. But I'm not sacrificing my principles to make sure I'm on the supposedly virtuous side. I'm also not going to be intimidated by what I consider to be extremely serious accusations of racism, sexism and homophobia. We're sticking to our principles. Depending on what particular agenda a typical activist has nowadays....principles THEMSELVES are a tool of oppression to maintain either white supremacy, toxic masculinity or heteronormative society. You could take any post Boogie has written the past couple months and replace 'white supremacy' with 'toxic masculinity' and it would become a feminist message.

Since all three of them are only logically coherent in the absence of the others....they inevitably start attacking each other. They attempt to use intersectionality as way to tie the holy troika together....but it only works poetically, not logically. Madness everywhere. The alt-right has held up a mirror to critical race studies. One side is evil, the other virtuous...yet they share the exact same underlying belief in identity politics. The abandonment of objective truth/reality is basically how Trump won the election...and it's also the most important foundation beam of post-modernism.

that poster and thinking it was hilarious in the way white kids find "small" acts of "rebellion" (almost ALWAYS ILLEGAL) hilarious and it becomes so hard to separate that kid's life from my manageable yet unremitting black rage at the basic unfairness with which many whites perceive similar childish acts of rebellion perpetrated by black kids.

i cannot lie, "GOOD!!!!!!" is the first thing i thought when i heard about it. then, i saw him crying and thought of his mom and all his friends...i cracked a little. then, i did the ITWAN processing and truly searched my heart for the answer to these questions:

Would this even get this much attention were the kids black? no

Would there be this much outrage at N. Korea and sympathy for a black kid? no

Would a black kid who actually wanted to go to North Korea do something so petty and stupid? no

good luck to him tho. i hope he comes home. he don't deserve no damn 15 years. but neither did a generation of black non-violent drug offenders.

oh well.

especially since most of the niggas in here would have expressed
a similar sentiment had you seen that on the news... on some
"that white privilege a mufucka" or something.
May not have written an article, but all this "she bitter, I pity her"
shit is some of the most feigned high-horse shit I done seen in a minute lol.

Only thing about it is that she was just mad wordy like ColdTruth
(think of his post in the Beyonce's cousin post
http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12990902&mesg_id=12990902&page=2#12991396).

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

And yeah it's always gender wars against Black women...
Good ol 'murica.

>especially since most of the niggas in here would have
>expressed
>a similar sentiment had you seen that on the news... on some
>"that white privilege a mufucka" or something.
>May not have written an article, but all this "she bitter, I
>pity her"
>shit is some of the most feigned high-horse shit I done seen
>in a minute lol.
>

^^^^^^^^^^^ all that plus these angry posters got all nitpicky, like the bigger picture doesn't count because she got the "burger king" part wrong.

>Only thing about it is that she was just mad wordy like
>ColdTruth
>(think of his post in the Beyonce's cousin post
>http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=12990902&mesg_id=12990902&page=2#12991396).
>

Damn he wrote a book in a post that was just about somebody who likes Beyonce's cousin.

>^^^^^^^^^^^ all that plus these angry posters got all
>nitpicky, like the bigger picture doesn't count because she
>got the "burger king" part wrong.
>

And the people of North Korea have no western colonial history and therefore zero reference or experience with "race" as we know it in the Americas so to apply "our" particularly warped view to their culture and politics is kind of pointless/misguided.

>And the people of North Korea have no western colonial
>history and therefore zero reference or experience with "race"
>as we know it in the Americas so to apply "our" particularly
>warped view to their culture and politics is kind of
>pointless/misguided.


Yeah but the situation is similar, it also exposes some of the usual suspects, like the ones in this thread for example.

for them to repeat to others and if I'm not mistaken that's a journalistic ideal of sorts. That aside, she has a point -- clearly, but I think it gets lost in a lot of other stuff. The article basically boils down to:

"For me everyday has the potential to be this kids experience and that's wrong because this is supposedly "my" country where it's claimed the rules apply equally to all."

However there's a lot of other things in the article that confuse the wrongness of the situation on both sides of the equation.

.

Doing idiotic shit when you get there is one thing, but going there in the first place?
It's like the idiots that were backpacking in Iraq and ended up in Iran. Smart dumbasses.

>Doing idiotic shit when you get there is one thing, but going
>there in the first place?
>It's like the idiots that were backpacking in Iraq and ended
>up in Iran. Smart dumbasses.

>It's like the idiots that were backpacking in Iraq and ended
>up in Iran. Smart dumbasses.

I totally don't think that's exactly what happens. And I am not one of those "Can't trust the mainstream media types" but I also think when another country reports they've captured US spies and we say they weren't spies, it's probably 50/50 that they were actually spies.

Not that this NK dummy was a spy, but I have no reason to trust the official narrative of events given to me by the news outlet that claims that fat kid is a descendant of god and can wipe out the US with a wave of his hand.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

in the intelligence gathering community.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

lol he is going hard

Classic OKP response.

We've seen no skepticism with regards to the official story or the coerced confession.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

of him, right ?

from a wall. That's enough to convince you that dude willing stole something from the North Koreans? You're satisfied they didn't order him to remove the item from the wall or that's even him in the video?


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Equality means everyone gets fucked equally is the thinking behind the post-reconstruction South and the extensions thereof in America. Instead of making it so everyone is treated fairly and has opportunity, everyone gets fucked over. And even if that sounds desirable because you are a(n understandably) bitter and resentful individual, NO, because they will lower things a level or two for blacks to keep whites in the fold on some "ONE DAY I'LL OWN THAT BOOT ON MY NECK" shit.

More humanity, not less.

the kid is a victim of white supremacy (the oppressor, meaning all of us who collectively let it go unchallenged day after day after day after day...the SMALLEST little things we let go unchecked, because, well...we all have lives) just as much as the woman who wrote that piece. the idea of "the oppressor" takes so much responsibility off of all us who tolerate global white supremacy that i find it laughable when people refer to it.

This whole thing makes me think of Toni Morrison's comments on racism and how it impacts whites:

"There’s something distorted about the psyche. It’s a huge waste and it's a corruption and a distortion. It’s like…its a profound neurosis…and…nobody examines for what it is. It feels crazy…it is crazy and it leaves…It has just as much a deleterious effect on white people and possibly equal as it does Black people."


this kid (he's a kid, 21 is a kid to me) thought this was FUNNY and the very idea of consequence was FUNNY. the vast majority of non-white males just don't have that social conditioning that would even allow us to conjure up such a foolish thought.

so, yeah, i feel SAD for that kid, but i completely understand why this woman wrote the piece. i wish she had chosen the slant of how white supremacy has negatively impacted dude's life in a counterintuitive way (because they prolly would have let a black person off with a warning, KNOWING the public outcry from americans would be a fraction of what it is for this guy).

just different dimensions of the same argument. by no means i am denying the role of white privilege in this rather odd situation, i'm looking more at the reaction to it. also i think oppression is both with and without a face, like you said tolerance and social mechanisms are one component, others are active enforcers of it. but nobody should be fucking partying off shit like this (not to say that you were).

that's the only racism to end, conveniently


I'm actually sure this black woman's bitter ass essay is what will continue to the cycle of racism in america more than any arrangement of disproportionate prison sentences and court fines, hate groups in law enforcement, discriminatory & predatory bank loans, environmental warfare, outright destruction of entire cities & towns or mass propaganda



There is a judge somewhere who had previously been ignoring the millions of dollars being offered to sell thousands of mostly black people to the prison industry but then she reads this bitter essay, realizes that all black people are not MLK and "they hate us! they deserve it"


Really, all the raggedy shit on the internet and this is what y'all come here and be upset at? Get the fuck out of her with that bullshit

It's hard to reconcile everything you said with the things that have actually been said.

I can only assume that you're reacting to a handful of posts in here that I can't see. Carry on in that case.

Cause I really want to know exactly how people of color are supposed to "care bear stare" away centuries of systematic oppression?

BTW, this post aged well!

as if this guy getting 50 years in a shithole prison for attempted petty theft was somehow evening out injustice. jesus fucking christ.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

when the system gets turned on its head for once

the criminal is just the figurehead for the reaction

see- "dont tase me bro"


the white tears and tears-by-proxy flowing online are making it personal tho

You wanna hike the mountains if Afghanistan on spring break and get caught up, don't cry to me. You hankering for a taste of clam stew in Aleppo Syria, more power to you. You chose to vacation in NK where people are literally dying to get out.
Where people are not just poor but literally are not free, don't ask me to shed a tear. Stand inline for sympathy behind all of the North Korean people whose position is not voluntary.
Sorry, not sorry.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

>You wanna hike the mountains if Afghanistan on spring break
>and get caught up, don't cry to me. You hankering for a taste
>of clam stew in Aleppo Syria, more power to you. You chose to
>vacation in NK where people are literally dying to get out.
>Where people are not just poor but literally are not free,
>don't ask me to shed a tear. Stand inline for sympathy
>behind all of the North Korean people whose position is not
>voluntary.
>Sorry, not sorry.



But nah, they're saying we're supposed to see a motherfucker
*choosing* an "oppressive" vacation spot to commit crime and
equate that with unjust killing and harassment of Black folks in
America. That whole notion is so steeped in white privilege/supremacy it ain't even funny.

Going to a country where NONE of the people are free FOR FUN is borne out of chart smashing levels of white privilege. This person thought NK would give him a pat on the back like he would get if he was in the US when "good white kids" break the law. Wrong! Under NK laws he's probably getting off easily. If he was North Korean not only would he be sentence to had labor but likely his mother, father, siblings and even cousins would be sentenced too!
So, yes he got more fun then he bargained for.
Yes, the swipe is written terribly but the above premise remains.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

If the author stuck with that I'd be cool with it.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Was checking to see if she was one of "those" pro-black bloggers.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>Was checking to see if she was one of "those" pro-black
>bloggers.
>


What are you going to do with that info when you find it ?

https://twitter.com/knflkkollective

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/la-sha/

If it was girl like the girl from the pro-black post, I'd be like "oh, I get it".


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

If it was girl like the girl from the pro-black post, I'd be like "oh, I get it".


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Anti-gentrification, cheap alcohol & trying to look pretty in our twilight posting years (c) Big Reg


Get 25% off www.karmaloop.com w/ rep code JR9103 |
Nike, G-Star, Herschel, Adidas (Men's & Women's clothing)

Here and on FB, I've found that the main group going hard supporting this have been Black Women. I wonder why. Black female author maybe?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

.

yeah, he was dumb but still feel for the family. That banner wasn't worth all this, hopefully people will learn from his mistake.

blamed for outright killing him.

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/otto-warmbier-dead_us_594834d4e4b0cddbb008ccff?k7p§ion=us_theworldpost

NK doesn't do anything for the sake of humanitarianism. so i figured that kid had to be fucked up beyond all relief (FUBAR).

poor kid.

why'd he go to NK in the first place? sure he shouldn't have had to die for being stupid...but still.

this reminds me of my lil world-traveling cuz who i had to talk out of going to Iran a few years back. i showed remarkable restraint b/c the whole time we talked i just wanted to wring his fucking neck for even seriously thinking about that shit. but i was glad he asked me so i could give him the Come To Jesus. i should text him a link the articles about this NK kid.

My thing is I kinda half believe NK that whatever happened to the kid wasn't their 'fault'. Even the Taliban would treat their captives as well as they could just because they were effective bargaining chips (unless they were on the beheading plan, but that's neither here nor there).

Beating someone that valuable into a coma off GP just seems dumb then again NK ain't exactly run like a logical country..

b4 i left for The Univ of Chicago - "your white peers are going to do things you cannot do". that was the gist of it and i kinda got it when she told me but it became really real in small moments. i was sure my lil cuz had had that conversation w/his parents (he works in investment banking in Manhattan). so i just reiterated what i knew he'd heard. b/c i figured some white person had put this idea in his head. i had to pull him back and remind him he doesn't come from ppl w/money or juice. and he wasn't high enough on the food chain at his bank that they'd spend $ to get him back if he got caught up. so he needed to stick w/only traveling to countries that have a US Embassy.

anyway, i believe NK probably didn't fuck that kid up. i heard som'n about him taking a sedative and som'n else and falling into a coma. i figured he tried to kill himself and failed. b/c i'd DEFINITELY try suicide if i were in NK custody. shit, i'd try it in USA custody. fuck that shit.

doctors said zero evidence of botulism. but also said he didn't seem like he was getting his ass beat on the reg. then again he had months in a coma for his wounds to heal. i love how dying in custody in the U.S. is suspect (it definitely is) but you're giving the north koreans the benefit of the doubt (you definitely shouldn't).

Anything can happen anywhere of course but why up the chances?
Regardless of what I feel about his motivation to go or his actions while there he did not deserve to die for that.

my lil cuz wanted to do it to pad his resume w/investment banks. som'n som'n global som'n. i dunno. he's been all over the world. we never know where he is. anyway he wanted to go to Iran to help w/job interviews. i just wanted to thump him on his forehead.

and I'd give Iran a pass.
Beautiful country, fantastic people but the regime is crazy.
Find yourself charged with some bullshit and your family begging on TV.
Fuck that.

we don't know Jesse Jackson or Jimmy Carter. or Beyonce. if he got caught up over there he'd be toast.

and the lil dude loves slangin dick. so i just know he'd get over there and fuck w/the wrong one and end up in a world of trouble.

but this guy was 21 and he stole a poster, let's make him out to be the irrational one in a scenario where he's pitted against possibly the craziest fucking government on earth. what he did was dumb but he paid a very heavy price for it, a disproportionately heavy one to understate it. the fact that we also let people pay the ultimate price for even less--walking down the street, playing with a toy, driving a car while legally armed--just says we need to do a lot fucking better, too.

Escept he's in his late 50's and yes, he's white. He's been to Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, Libya....a whole whack of other places.

He's a lefty, classic liberal and I believe him when he says he has a genuine concern for those less fortunate in the world. He's a part-time bartender with no responsibilities so he basically lives in a shit-hole and saves his money for his next trip.

I don't know....I've learned alot from him and the perspectives he's acquired. I know the anti-liberal slant will accuse him of 'strife-vacationing' and I realize that exists....but again, I think he's genuine and I'm not ready to characterize him negatively. I think he's coming from a real place. The guy in this particular situation doesn't strike me as coming from a real place.

I haven't broached the subject of how he feels about possibly taken hostage or kidnapped and what he would expect from the Canadian government. I do kinda see a hypocrisy if you expect a bunch of resources and effort spent on bailing you out in a situation like this. You know the risk and you take them for your own perceived gain (in his case 'learning about the world'). So someone like him would probably be best to take their own risk and not expect resources allocated to them if something goes wrong. You shouldn't be exploring war-torn countries and then expect a bail-out.

>this reminds me of my lil world-traveling cuz who i had to
>talk out of going to Iran a few years back. i showed
>remarkable restraint b/c the whole time we talked i just
>wanted to wring his fucking neck for even seriously thinking
>about that shit. but i was glad he asked me so i could give
>him the Come To Jesus. i should text him a link the articles
>about this NK kid.

My girl's "little" sister is currently trying to organise a holiday to Lebanon for a "cultural experience".

She was living in Cairo during the Arab Spring, so she's not going in totally blind, but I swear she thinks she's entirely invulnerable to all the bullshit she could get swept up in.

Yes random violence can happen but we've learned that can happen anywhere.
The government is not on a foreigner witch hunt.

And even I might be quick to jump on your sister's friend with the typical characterizations. 'Oh she's so naive' and 'little westerner thinks she can save the world' etc etc.

But I kinda stopped myself in my tracks. What is it exactly that is wrong with her instinct to make that trip? If we were to speculate...do we think Lebanese people would be against her visiting? It seems like we're kinda leading ourselves down an isolationist policy in the name of putting down liberal-minded people. Why? Isn't it a GOOD instinct for her to have? To be curious? To care?

Basically writes itself

death and threaten people and their families with jail/torture if they dare flee or say something negative about the Glorious Governor and his policies.

“Otto’s fate deepens my Administration’s determination to prevent such tragedies from befalling innocent people at the hands of regimes that do not respect the rule of law or basic human decency,” Trump said Monday in a statement. Vice President Mike Pence lamented the pariah regime’s tragic “disregard for human life.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/otto-warmbier-dead_us_594834d4e4b0cddbb008ccff?k7p§ion=us_theworldpost

Kalief Browder and thousands of innocent people like him are befallen by such tragedies, daily, due to America's "lack of respect for the rule of law or basic human decency."
They're lamenting the "disregard for human life"... ha, how rich.
So is Valerie Castile and a host of other people, and that's right here in their own country which is supposed to be so above that "pariah regime" North Korea. America is a pariah regime and it proves it every day with its treatment of Black people. Mr. "Central Park 5 is still guilty" just overlooks that tho of course.

could have been written better, but yeah...she right

why the fuck you touring that place?

is now that we know what happened to this kid.

It is morally repugnant to clap to this piece and deeply hypocritical to do so and ask that people be empathetic to the plight of black people at the hands of the state in this country. What's the difference between cheering to this and cheering when cops kill unarmed white kids?

Also deeply misguided because we don't know anything about what happened over there or who this kid is. Why would anyone believe the NK official account when they also tell us that Kim Jong-il started walking when he was 3 weeks old and could talk at 8 weeks?

It's easy to buy into the arrogant frat boy narrative but we don't anything that about this kid. Otto Warmbier could be a model progressive kid who spends every weekend feeding the homeless for all we know.

Finally, this story works me up not because I want to defend white people but because I think the callousness the way some folks have been cheering this on ultimately hurts black people. Like I said before, it's impossible to say this boy got what he deserved and say folks need to be empathetic to the black folks who needlessly lose their lives to the state with a straight face. it's hypocritical and hurts the cause.




>http://kinfolkkollective.com/2016/03/21/you-gon-learn-today-on-the-revocation-of-white-privilege-in-north-korea/
>
>You Gon’ Learn Today: On the Revocation of White Privilege
>in North Korea
>Posted on March 21, 2016 by LaSha Standard
>
>“That’s what the hell he gets. Good for him!” My mother
>had uttered those words in her typical matter-of-fact tone one
>morning as she watched the news. “He” was Michael Fay, an
>18-year-old from Ohio who had confessed to vandalizing cars in
>Singapore, and was subsequently sentence to six lashes from a
>rattan cane. I was in sixth grade and all I could imagine was
>how horrible the pain would be. My mother was unmoved at the
>thought, remarking, “He earned that.”
>
>I thought about my mother’s words a few days ago while
>watching video of 21-year-old Otto Warmbier, another man from
>Ohio who last week was convicted of subversion for stealing a
>propaganda banner in North Korea, and sentenced to 15 years
>hard labor. Just as in Fay’s case, I was shocked by the
>severity of the punishment. I’ve tried to imagine spending a
>decade and a half performing what the North Korean state deems
>hard labor and I can’t. But I’m not 11 anymore, and now,
>my mother’s callous reaction to Micahel Fay’s sentence is
>my reaction to another young white man who went to an Asian
>country and violated their laws, and learned that the shield
>his cis white male identity provides here in America is not
>teflon abroad.
>
>As shocked as I am by the sentence handed down to Warmbier, I
>am even more shocked that a grown man, an American citizen,
>would not only voluntarily enter North Korea but also commit
>what’s been described a “college-style prank.” That kind
>of reckless gall is an unfortunate side effect of being
>socialized first as a white boy, and then as a white man in
>this country. Every economic, academic, legal and social
>system in this country has for more than three centuries
>functioned with the implicit purpose of ensuring that white
>men are the primary benefactors of all privilege. The kind of
>arrogance bred by that kind of conditioning is pathogenic,
>causing its host to develop a subconscious yet no less
>obnoxious perception that the rules do not apply to him, or at
>least that their application is negotiable.
>
>Headline after headline has highlighted that Otto Warmbier is
>a student. His Linkedin profile states that he is majoring
>Economics with a minor in Global Sustainability and is a
>Managing Director of an “alternative investment fund.” A
>man reared in this country who studies the globe as a part of
>his higher education curriculum must have been at least
>passingly aware of the notoriously strained relationship
>between the United States and North Korea. Surely he had read
>the stories of Jeffrey Fowle and Matthew Miller, other white
>American men arrested in North Korea for “petty crimes”
>who were subsequently sentenced to hard labor.
>
>Yeah, I’m willing to bet my last dollar that he was aware of
>the political climate in that country, but privilege is a hell
>of a drug. The high of privilege told him that North Korea’s
>history of making examples out of American citizens who dare
>challenge their rigid legal system in any way was no match for
>his alabaster American privilege. When you can watch a white
>man who entered a theatre and killed a dozen people come out
>unscathed, you start to believe you’re invincible. When you
>see a white man taken to Burger King in a bulletproof vest
>after he killed nine people in a church, you learn that the
>world will always protect you.
>
>Coming from a country filled with citizens who lambaste black
>victims of state sanctioned violence by telling us that if we
>obey the law, we wouldn’t have to face the consequences,
>Warmbier should’ve listened. If he had obeyed North
>Korea’s laws, he would be home now. In fact, if he had
>heeded the US Department of State’s strong advisement
>against travel to North Korea, he would be home right now. And
>if Eric Garner is to be blamed for his own death for selling
>loose cigarettes or if Sandra Bland is dead because she failed
>to signal when changing lanes, then Otto Warmbier is now
>facing a decade and a half of hard labor because he lacked
>both good judgment and respect for the national autonomy of a
>country which has made its hatred for and vendetta against
>America unequivocally clear.
>
>And while I don’t blame his parents for pressuring the State
>Department to negotiate his release, I wonder where they were
>when their son was planning a trip to the DPRK. Didn’t they
>impress upon him the hostile climate that awaited him?
>Didn’t they rear him to respect law and order? Did they not
>teach him the importance of obeying authority?
>
>What a mind-blowing moment it must be to realize after 21
>years of being pedestaled by the world simply because your DNA
>coding produced the favorable phenotype that such favor is not
>absolute. What a bummer to realize that even the State
>Department with all its influence and power cannot assure your
>pardon. What a wake-up call it is to realize that your tears
>are met with indifference.
>
>As I’ve said, living 15 years performing manual labor in
>North Korea is unimaginable, but so is going to a place I know
>I’m unwelcome and violating their laws. I’m a black woman
>though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my
>daily reality living in a country where white men like him are
>willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit
>in maintaining the power structures which ensure their
>supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of
>a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

This is nothing like cheering a white kid being killed by cops. If anything it would be Black folk saying "how you like them apples?" after the cops get off for killing a white kid who was unarmed and it was obvious they used excessive force.

Once again you claim you hate defending white people but go above and beyond to do it.

The OP is basically telling white folk to sit thefuck down and stop playing with fire and then getting mad when they get burned the fuck up. Don't go to Syria, N.Korea, etc and try to play 1st world games...

Don't try to smuggle drugs into Thailand or draw cartoons in ISIS territory.

With a minor retooling of the facts, you are showing the capacity to accept the logic of our oppressors. That is, the same way that white folks believe Freddie Gray may have had it coming because he was a drug dealer or Eric Garner for not complying, you accept the idea that Otto had it coming because he had the audacity to go to NK. Definitely not a smart decision, but it shouldn't have cost him his life.

>This is nothing like cheering a white kid being killed by
>cops. If anything it would be Black folk saying "how you like
>them apples?" after the cops get off for killing a white kid
>who was unarmed and it was obvious they used excessive force.

Notice you had to use the analogy of comparing this to cops getting off for killing a white kid to avoid the more obvious and direct comparision, which is... the (NK) police killing a kid. This isn't a story about cops getting off, this is a story about the state killing a kid.

>Once again you claim you hate defending white people but go
>above and beyond to do it.

I'm trying to defend ideals that should be applied in this case if we expect them to applied in the defense of black people.

>
>The OP is basically telling white folk to sit thefuck down and
>stop playing with fire and then getting mad when they get
>burned the fuck up. Don't go to Syria, N.Korea, etc and try
>to play 1st world games...
>
>Don't try to smuggle drugs into Thailand or draw cartoons in
>ISIS territory.

Or not comply when the police are around... Same stinkin thinkin.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

You keep bringing up these analogies that make no gotdamn sense.

Freddie Gray? How the fuck you go there? This is nothing like what happens in America because in NK they treat EVERYONE like shit.

Stop trying to cape for white folks and slow down and think about what you are typing. NK's leader will kill an uncle and his whole family if he had a bad dream about him.

They don't play bruh.. stop trying to spin this shit. If I tell you the stove is hot and you still touch that shit don't try and make me into a slave catcher because I said "I told you so"

FOH.

It's wrong when it happens there. It's wrong when it happens here. That shouldn't be so hard to acknowledge.


You can't be so short sighted to argue he should have known better which is the exact same argument conservative people make in the US about black people who die in police custody.

You are empowering and defending police abusing people, the arguments of white racist, and I am the one caping for white people?




>You keep bringing up these analogies that make no gotdamn
>sense.
>
>Freddie Gray? How the fuck you go there? This is nothing like
>what happens in America because in NK they treat EVERYONE like
>shit.
>
>Stop trying to cape for white folks and slow down and think
>about what you are typing. NK's leader will kill an uncle and
>his whole family if he had a bad dream about him.
>
>They don't play bruh.. stop trying to spin this shit. If I
>tell you the stove is hot and you still touch that shit don't
>try and make me into a slave catcher because I said "I told
>you so"
>
>FOH.
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>It's wrong when it happens there. It's wrong when it happens
>here. That shouldn't be so hard to acknowledge.

this thread originally wasn't about killing a kid. Stop trying to make it sound like the post was created to celebrate death. It was made to point out the insane entitlement white kids tend to have when it comes to countries like NK.
>
>
>You can't be so short sighted to argue he should have known
>better which is the exact same argument conservative people
>make in the US about black people who die in police custody.

this is false. One has nothing to do with the other. Black folk LIVE in America and supposedly are protected under the constitution. You cant compare Black folk paying taxes and living in America while being unjustly killed by cops to a white kid voluntarily going to NK and breaking the law.


>
>You are empowering and defending police abusing people, the
>arguments of white racist, and I am the one caping for white
>people?

this is false. You are using the typical conservative white angle of "you are the true racist because you called me a racist"

cmon b, you gotta try harder.
>
>
>
>
>>You keep bringing up these analogies that make no gotdamn
>>sense.
>>
>>Freddie Gray? How the fuck you go there? This is nothing
>like
>>what happens in America because in NK they treat EVERYONE
>like
>>shit.
>>
>>Stop trying to cape for white folks and slow down and think
>>about what you are typing. NK's leader will kill an uncle
>and
>>his whole family if he had a bad dream about him.
>>
>>They don't play bruh.. stop trying to spin this shit. If I
>>tell you the stove is hot and you still touch that shit
>don't
>>try and make me into a slave catcher because I said "I told
>>you so"
>>
>>FOH.
>>
>>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

the same white arrogance that is fueled by the abuse and disrespect of non-white people around the globe... has been for hundreds of years. Whether you feel it's right or wrong, at least put it in proper context.

>I'm trying to defend ideals that should be applied in this
>case if we expect them to applied in the defense of black
>people.


^That is the crux of your argument, both here and in reply 163 when you say the reaction to this "hurts Black people."
Blaming Black people for our treatment by this country is simply ignorant, exhibiting a gross misunderstanding of the history and present of the deliberate targeting of Black people in America. They've created an entire mythology as an excuse to target and kill innocent Black people simply because they wanted to kill us in large numbers since the end of slavery. They simply do it because they want to, and to be looking for ways to blame Black people for it at this point is beyond ridiculous.

>^That is the crux of your argument, both here and in reply 163
>when you say the reaction to this "hurts Black people."
>Blaming Black people for our treatment by this country is
>simply ignorant, exhibiting a gross misunderstanding of the
>history and present of the deliberate targeting of Black
>people in America. They've created an entire mythology as an
>excuse to target and kill innocent Black people simply because
>they wanted to kill us in large numbers since the end of
>slavery. They simply do it because they want to, and to be
>looking for ways to blame Black people for it at this point is
>beyond ridiculous.

To say that one is against death at the hands of the police in all instances and is hypocritical to gloat about in one instance is Blaming Black People?

GTFOHWTBS



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

For you to think that these ideals would
be applied to us if we simply apply them
to others has been proven false over and over.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1433627/thumbs/o-127877391-570.jpg

This is their language

to go to this far to defend white people.

of taking a stance based on principle and not in reaction to whether or not it benefits white people.



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

You are making the same argument, Otto Warmbier death in NK is the same as Blacks killed in the U.S.

Meanwhile Otto's father said Kerry and the Obama admin is the reason his son did not come home sooner. He gave Trump credit for his son's release.

http://www.today.com/video/otto-warmbier-s-father-lashes-out-at-obama-did-his-administration-do-enough-969076803768

Otto Warmbier’s father lashes out at Obama: Did his administration do enough?

During a news conference, Fred Warmbier, the father of the American student who was in prison in North Korea for 17 months, is praising President Donald Trump and his political staff for bringing his son home. Warmbier lashed out at former Secretary of State John Kerry and the Obama administration, saying they didn’t do enough to get his son released. NBC’s Andrea Mitchell reports for TODAY.

>You are making the same argument, Otto Warmbier death in NK
>is the same as Blacks killed in the U.S.

To say all unlawful killings at the hands of the police is an all lives matter argument is an woefully underestimation of how pernicious all lives arguments are. The goal of All Lives Matter is to misdirect attention from police killings of black people.

What yall short-sighted petty mofos are missing is that to cheer on the killing of people at the hands of the police ultimately hurts black people and undermines the moral authority of BLM's positions.

If you truly believe that the police do not have a right to take the lives of innocent citizens, then it shouldn't matter whether the victim is black, white, progressive, trump supporter, etc. That's not supporting all lives matter, that's maintaining a principled position,



>
>Meanwhile Otto's father said Kerry and the Obama admin is the
>reason his son did not come home sooner. He gave Trump credit
>for his son's release.

Again, what does Otto's father's position have anything to do with whether he was mistreated or not?

You need a perfect victim before you'd be willing to recognize he was mistreated?



>http://www.today.com/video/otto-warmbier-s-father-lashes-out-at-obama-did-his-administration-do-enough-969076803768
>
>Otto Warmbier’s father lashes out at Obama: Did his
>administration do enough?
>
>During a news conference, Fred Warmbier, the father of the
>American student who was in prison in North Korea for 17
>months, is praising President Donald Trump and his political
>staff for bringing his son home. Warmbier lashed out at former
>Secretary of State John Kerry and the Obama administration,
>saying they didn’t do enough to get his son released.
>NBC’s Andrea Mitchell reports for TODAY.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

second, if they killing folks and giving hard labor for fapping or touching posters stay the fuck out of that country.

that's it. all the rest of the shit you typing is just an excuse to keep caping for white folk and shitting on Black folk

>
>To say all unlawful killings at the hands of the police is an
>all lives matter argument is an woefully underestimation of
>how pernicious all lives arguments are. The goal of All Lives
>Matter is to misdirect attention from police killings of black
>people.

"all unlawful killings at the hands of the police" is misdirecting attention from Blacks killed by the police and the neighborhood watch garbage, the racist who doesn't like loud music, and the volunteer with the police. It's more than the police killing unarmed Blacks in the U.S. and getting away with it.

>What yall short-sighted petty mofos are missing is that to
>cheer on the killing of people at the hands of the police
>ultimately hurts black people and undermines the moral
>authority of BLM's positions.
>

Nah the cause is hurt when you provide cover for the usual suspects to shift the focus of the argument or article. Just look up above, they go after the author of the article hard the same way you are attacking people for pointing out the obvious, that it's a bad idea to travel to these places.

>If you truly believe that the police do not have a right to
>take the lives of innocent citizens, then it shouldn't matter
>whether the victim is black, white, progressive, trump
>supporter, etc. That's not supporting all lives matter,
>that's maintaining a principled position,
>

Not really, if the punishment for taking the life of an innocent changes based on whether victim is black, white, progressive, trump supporter then it does matter and it is all lives matter or blue lives matter. You are not maintaining a principled position you are enabling whites by letting them off the hook.

>
>>
>>Meanwhile Otto's father said Kerry and the Obama admin is
>the
>>reason his son did not come home sooner. He gave Trump
>credit
>>for his son's release.
>
>Again, what does Otto's father's position have anything to do
>with whether he was mistreated or not?
>
>You need a perfect victim before you'd be willing to recognize
>he was mistreated?
>

Otto's father's position is a misdirection. Kerry and Obama didn't kill his son, NK did.

No I don't need a perfect victim or a false equivalency. How many white kids has the NK killed in the past 3 years ?

>
>>http://www.today.com/video/otto-warmbier-s-father-lashes-out-at-obama-did-his-administration-do-enough-969076803768

All Lives Matter would be if someone was talking about Philando Castile and I came in arguing "BUT WHAT ABOUT OTTO??!?"

That's changing the subject from a black person dying at the hands of police to making it about white people as a form of misdirection.

Independent of that conversation saying the murder of Otto Warmbier is wrong because I believe that the murder of anyone by cops is the opposite of that and is a position based on principle. A principle that if it were universally applied, would greatly benefit black people.

Listen the author could have made an excellent point tying the death of Otto Warmbier to Philando Castile by making the point of being white in north korea gives a glimpse of what it's like to black in america, where non-compliance with minor police directives can cost you your life. If you can empathize with Otto, then you should empathize with Philando.

Instead the author makes the exact opposite point which is Otto should have known better and complied with the rules of his environment...which is the exact argument people make defending racist american cops.

if you can't see the difference between the those two positions I am not sure what I can tell you on an internet message board.





>
>>
>>To say all unlawful killings at the hands of the police is
>an
>>all lives matter argument is an woefully underestimation of
>>how pernicious all lives arguments are. The goal of All
>Lives
>>Matter is to misdirect attention from police killings of
>black
>>people.
>
>"all unlawful killings at the hands of the police" is
>misdirecting attention from Blacks killed by the police and
>the neighborhood watch garbage, the racist who doesn't like
>loud music, and the volunteer with the police. It's more than
>the police killing unarmed Blacks in the U.S. and getting away
>with it.
>
>>What yall short-sighted petty mofos are missing is that to
>>cheer on the killing of people at the hands of the police
>>ultimately hurts black people and undermines the moral
>>authority of BLM's positions.
>>
>
>Nah the cause is hurt when you provide cover for the usual
>suspects to shift the focus of the argument or article. Just
>look up above, they go after the author of the article hard
>the same way you are attacking people for pointing out the
>obvious, that it's a bad idea to travel to these places.
>
>>If you truly believe that the police do not have a right to
>>take the lives of innocent citizens, then it shouldn't
>matter
>>whether the victim is black, white, progressive, trump
>>supporter, etc. That's not supporting all lives matter,
>>that's maintaining a principled position,
>>
>
>Not really, if the punishment for taking the life of an
>innocent changes based on whether victim is black, white,
>progressive, trump supporter then it does matter and it is all
>lives matter or blue lives matter. You are not maintaining a
>principled position you are enabling whites by letting them
>off the hook.


Who is letting anyone off the hook? I am saying that if a cop unlawfully takes the life of a black person, white person, trump supporter, progressive, etc. then that cop should be punished. Where am I letting anyone off the hook?




>
>>
>>>
>>>Meanwhile Otto's father said Kerry and the Obama admin is
>>the
>>>reason his son did not come home sooner. He gave Trump
>>credit
>>>for his son's release.
>>
>>Again, what does Otto's father's position have anything to
>do
>>with whether he was mistreated or not?
>>
>>You need a perfect victim before you'd be willing to
>recognize
>>he was mistreated?
>>
>
>Otto's father's position is a misdirection. Kerry and Obama
>didn't kill his son, NK did.




So help me out here, who is Otto's father trying to misdirect attention from? Why would he be trying to misdirect attention away from the death of his son?

Do you just like the word misdirection?



>
>No I don't need a perfect victim or a false equivalency. How
>many white kids has the NK killed in the past 3 years ?
>

Dawg there is more to the world then white people so every issue doesn't revolve around white people.

something like 40% of the people in North Korean prisons die, mostly of malnutrition.

Based on that fact and other accounts I hear about North Korean Prisons I wouldn't wish that on anyone.


>>
>>>http://www.today.com/video/otto-warmbier-s-father-lashes-out-at-obama-did-his-administration-do-enough-969076803768
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

and she made to comparison white folks who say dumb shit like "Blacks like Garner and Bland would be alive if...." when we all know that not how it works.

bit how can you not see that her argument all along is Otto would be free if he never went into a country the US advises us against travelling into because its hostile territory?

How can you hold NK police to the same standard as US police? Their laws are ass backwards which is why it's a terrible idea to go to places like this for vacation.

That's peak Caucasity b.

I think no one should die unjustly at the hands of the police. Not here in the US. Not in North Korea. It's not that high of a standard, and it should be the standard around the world. It's hard to believe yall find that position controversial.

Once yall short sighted negroes start indulging arguments like he should have known better, then you are engaging in the same arguments that white people use to justify the killing of black people. It's that simple.

If you can't see how it's self-defeating for black people to be arguing, "if he just complied with the law, he would be alive" then I don't know what to tell you at this point.



>and she made to comparison white folks who say dumb shit like
>"Blacks like Garner and Bland would be alive if...." when we
>all know that not how it works.
>
>bit how can you not see that her argument all along is Otto
>would be free if he never went into a country the US advises
>us against travelling into because its hostile territory?
>
>How can you hold NK police to the same standard as US police?
>Their laws are ass backwards which is why it's a terrible idea
>to go to places like this for vacation.
>
>That's peak Caucasity b.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

to break the law inside of a horrible regime.

Sorry bruh, I have far too many Black folk being killed in THESE AMERICAN STREETS to cape for someone paying top dollar to gamble with the enemy.

When white peoole want to come to the table for 13% more tears we'll be here.

In the meantime -- enjoy this slice of everyday black life

>All Lives Matter would be if someone was talking about
>Philando Castile and I came in arguing "BUT WHAT ABOUT
>OTTO??!?"

Substitute "morally repugnant and "deeply hypocritical" people for Otto when you yell what about in a thread discussing White Privilage in NK.


>That's changing the subject from a black person dying at the
>hands of police to making it about white people as a form of
>misdirection.
>
>Independent of that conversation saying the murder of Otto
>Warmbier is wrong because I believe that the murder of anyone
>by cops is the opposite of that and is a position based on
>principle. A principle that if it were universally applied,
>would greatly benefit black people.

It's a reach and an attempt to expand the discussion about police murdering Blacks to a one size fits all. Police are murdering Blacks because they can get away with it. You are not taking a principled stand, you're covering up the original point with an exception is the rule argument. How many white kids did NK kill in the last three years ?

>Listen the author could have made an excellent point tying the
>death of Otto Warmbier to Philando Castile by making the point
>of being white in north korea gives a glimpse of what it's
>like to black in america, where non-compliance with minor
>police directives can cost you your life. If you can empathize
>with Otto, then you should empathize with Philando.
>

You mean connect it like this

"I’m a black woman
though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my
daily reality living in a country where white men like him are
willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit
in maintaining the power structures which ensure their
supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of
a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it." - LaSha Standard


>Instead the author makes the exact opposite point which is
>Otto should have known better and complied with the rules of
>his environment...which is the exact argument people make
>defending racist american cops.
>

Nah she says more than that, she explains why he should have seen the danger of traveling to NK given his background.

>if you can't see the difference between the those two
>positions I am not sure what I can tell you on an internet
>message board.
>

You see what you want to see while you are pointing your finger at the author of the article and those who agree with it.


>>
>>Not really, if the punishment for taking the life of an
>>innocent changes based on whether victim is black, white,
>>progressive, trump supporter then it does matter and it is
>all
>>lives matter or blue lives matter. You are not maintaining a
>>principled position you are enabling whites by letting them
>>off the hook.
>
>
>Who is letting anyone off the hook? I am saying that if a cop
>unlawfully takes the life of a black person, white person,
>trump supporter, progressive, etc. then that cop should be
>punished. Where am I letting anyone off the hook?
>

You are giving a pass to those who say, agreeing with the author of this article, saying Black lives matter, holding police accountable is reverse racism. The argument against police murdering blacks is solid whether you agree with the article about white privilege in NK or not. A strong moral argument is not required to say Blacks should not be murdered.


>>
>>Otto's father's position is a misdirection. Kerry and Obama
>>didn't kill his son, NK did.
>
>
>
>
>So help me out here, who is Otto's father trying to misdirect
>attention from? Why would he be trying to misdirect attention
>away from the death of his son?

His Father putting the blame on Kerry and Obama admin when it should really be on NK.

>Do you just like the word misdirection?
>

You think he wants people to blame him?

Do you like the alt right troll on this board ?

>
>
>>No I don't need a perfect victim or a false equivalency. How
>>many white kids has the NK killed in the past 3 years ?
>>
>
>Dawg there is more to the world then white people so every
>issue doesn't revolve around white people.

That does not answer the question.

>something like 40% of the people in North Korean prisons die,
>mostly of malnutrition.

Are they white kids from the US

>Based on that fact and other accounts I hear about North
>Korean Prisons I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
>

That does not answer the question. You said this article about White Privilege in the NK is misguided cruel, hateful and anyone who claps to it is morally repugnant and deeply hypocritical, so I'm asking where is the same number of white kids killed by the NK state that we see with Blacks killed by police ?

Buddy said he is an optimist, he must stop being one when it comes to blacks.

You sound wack as fuck bruh...

They don't need your help.

Please sit down.

points I raised.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Which is why your argument centers on
"if we expect these ideals to apply to us"
"cheering this on hurts the cause"
Black people are mistreated because white people want to mistreat us. If history and present haven't shown you that, then you haven't paid attention. You've bought into the con game.

Which is a hilarious claim coming from the guy who argues don't talk back to white people too much or you might get beat in the head.


(oh yeah, I will bring up that Uncle Tom'ing argument every time)



>Which is why your argument centers on
>"if we expect these ideals to apply to us"
>"cheering this on hurts the cause"
>Black people are mistreated because white people want to
>mistreat us. If history and present haven't shown you that,
>then you haven't paid attention. You've bought into the con
>game.
>
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Lol @ you calling someone an Uncle Tom when you agreed with Denny's alt-right flavored arguments after crying about your racist neighborhood friend who let you chill in her house... since we're bringing up other posts and all.

As for you trying to crowbar that post into this one... my advice to minimize contact with police isn't the same as thinking American ideals would apply to us if we show empathy with white people. That's quite the opposite actually. Why? Because I give that advice precisely because American ideals have never and will never apply to us.

At any rate, your shit doesn't logically follow.

Saying you should cheerlead anyone dying at the hands of police can't be transform into blaming black people. You can try, but it doesn't work.

I'm let this one go but I'm hope that one day you can walk with your head held high and not be afraid of white people and cops, you don't have to live that way.



>Lol @ you calling someone an Uncle Tom when you agreed with
>Denny's alt-right flavored arguments after crying about your
>racist neighborhood friend who let you chill in her house...
>since we're bringing up other posts and all.
>
>As for you trying to crowbar that post into this one... my
>advice to minimize contact with police isn't the same as
>thinking American ideals would apply to us if we show empathy
>with white people. That's quite the opposite actually. Why?
>Because I give that advice precisely because American ideals
>have never and will never apply to us.
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

acting like some scorned lover as you keep bringing up some other post and misstating what I said, trying to fit it into every unrelated discussion... even IF what I was fabricating your "defend white people, side with the alt-right, and black black people" act, you'd be a hypocrite to complain about it.


>At any rate, your shit doesn't logically follow.
>
>Saying you should cheerlead anyone dying at the hands of
>police can't be transform into blaming black people. You can
>try, but it doesn't work.


That isn't what you said. You said:
"I'm trying to defend ideals that should be applied in this case if we expect them to applied in the defense of black people."
Like the onus is on us to be treated fairly, because we can't expect it until we defend a case like this? That's nonsensical. We're treated unfairly. He was treated like anyone else over there. We're also mistreated simply because they want to mistreat and exterminate us. You've yet to prove how that's comparable.


> I'm let this one go

If you were letting it go, you would't stopped right there, but you kept going with more alternative facts, so I'ma address those too...



>but I'm hope that one day you can walk
>with your head held high and not be afraid of white people and
>cops, you don't have to live that way.
>

This is why I started the way I did. I said stand your ground and get them off your case up to the necessary point, but know when to let it go (the interaction in that video shouldn't have lasted past the 40 second mark). You turn that into "you scared of white people???" but you wanna whine about someone making something up? Take a look in the mirror.
At any rate, I'll continue to deal with white people and cops as if they are highly dangerous both as individuals and a collective.
And since we're sharing our hopes for one another, I hope you'll learn to be more suspicious of white folks yourself, so you don't end up sad that your best white friend is racist or end up cosigning more anti-black rhetoric disguised as concern like you did with denny. I hope you learn to see through racist white people in general. I hope you get off this silly mess of wanting to attack Black people you consider radical and defend white people from them. I hope you get off that "well black ppl can be racist too" BS. I hope no white person calls the cops and tells them you have a gun for yelling at them from 1000ft as they walk away, because that is no way to die.

But... you're done tho, so I am too. I've played it cool this whole time, even tho you've brought up past posts multiple times. I haven't stooped to that level except in response to you doing it to me, even though I SO easily could with you and all the questionable stuff you say and the way you move in general, because your whole ideology is mad transparent. Since my arguments actually make sense, I tend to argue the topic at hand in whatever post we're in while sticking to those particular discussions. If you're done being a troll with me, it'll remain that way. Otherwise, I can be extremely petty.

sentences should read:

"even IF I was fabricating your "defend white people, side with the alt-right, and blame black people" act, you'd be a hypocrite to complain about it."

"If you were letting it go, you would've stopped right there..."

It's hard to fathom that one even needs to point out that this one individual is not repesentative of all white people. AND that he bears ZERO responsible for the deaths of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. It feels surreal to type that.

Curious to know if you agree with me that this incident has absolutely NOTHING to do with race. I suppose there's room to consider race a factor but I certainly don't think so. Was wondering what you thought.

This type of race-baiting is so reductive and selective. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING will be reduced to the official narrative and nothing, I mean NOTHING that does not directly support that narrative will be discussed. lol

For christ's sake....Dennis Rodman is in NK right now!

I can't imagine my mental state devolving to a point where hearing the news that Rodman is in NK provides me with an opportunity to make a derogatory characterization about all black Americans. I am so alarmed in the increasing emphasis on group identity in the place of individual identity. Would you agree that our society has become more tribalist than any other point in our lifetimes?

Also...entitled tourism is much more an AMERICAN (Canadians seem to think they're exempt from this trait but I think that's wishful thinking) thing than a race one. I'm quite sure that the black American kids who go to Cancun for spring break are obnoxious too.

America is 60 something percent white so not a single black person needs to shed a tear.

Were he black you would have the usual release of everything negative he had done in his past thus justifying his death at the hands of North Korea in the eyes of America. do you think it possible that America's "enemies" actually know it's history in regard to its own so called black citizens and thus aren't in the business of torturing people that already have a government to oppress them?

White people in America at least are the originators of this tribal mentality and have been practicing it from day one and the times we are in are something this cultures leaders have worked for over centuries. Time to give them what they want if you ask me.

No amount of empathy or sympathy for them will change the attitude of their majority towards black people. To put it simply they and their systems hate you passively, actively, or both.

>No amount of empathy or sympathy for them will change the
>attitude of their majority towards black people.

... "A Beautiful Struggle"
https://m.facebook.com/jamelabullock
Www.reverbnation.com/jamela

Ain't too soon for Otto
... "A Beautiful Struggle"
https://m.facebook.com/jamelabullock
Www.reverbnation.com/jamela

https://www.facebook.com/theLLAG/posts/1403034229788052

... "A Beautiful Struggle"
https://m.facebook.com/jamelabullock
Www.reverbnation.com/jamela

The death, destruction and famine of an entire country is not a "extreme vacation" to "build character" but a crime against humanity if this young man and his family understood and had reverence for that he would still be here today. It wouldn't shock me if this experience was going to appear on grad school applications or as a spicy hook on cover letters.
Someone compared vacaying to NK to taking spring break in Nazi Germany. I agree, that is what it is like.
This whole thing is a prime example of how white privilege harms white people. The world is not a Disney land. Shit, they are feeding people to dogs over there as punishment if reports are to be believed. I'm sorry this young man is dead but hopefully we can bring focus back onto actual North Koreans. I hope y'all are as interested in nonwhite folks dying over there in a few months when this dies down.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

... "A Beautiful Struggle"
https://m.facebook.com/jamelabullock
Www.reverbnation.com/jamela

I'm not saying this was the motivation of this person in particular...but many people who have visited NK have contributed by creating more awareness of the oppression that the citizens there face. Same thing with Nazi Germany. We should remember that in some ways...the Nazi's got away with genocide because the rest of the world was unaware of the extent of the brutality. The isolationist policy might actually be bad for North Koreans.

I wonder if we can flush this out more. Are you saying that it's specifically immoral to visit North Korea?

It got me thinking about the Sun city song in the 80's about 'not playing sun city' (I loved that track when i was a kid). I agree with the message of that song. But I wouldn't necessarily agree that it would be wrong to visit a country with apartheid. I think me and you would agree that profitting from entertaining the people who are benefitting from apartheid is definitely WRONG. But simply visiting a country with apartheid doesn't appear to be morally wrong to me. And in some cases...it can even help.

For example...I'm curious to know if you think it was wrong for VICE news to visit North Korea? Watching the footage of their visit shocked the hell out of me and gave me a deeper understanding of what's actually happening there. Of course...the distinction may be that this person was allegedly 'vacationing' (we're really assuming alot about his intentions aren't we?) and Vice news was there to REPORT. Is that a legitimate distinction for you? Would you feel the same way if a Vice news person was imprisoned while travelling there? They were disrespectful to NK...they mislead their guides as to the tone of their report. They lied about when the camera was rolling.

I don't really understand why we're concerned with 'respecting' the NK regime. They don't deserve respect. The entire world should stand together and condemn their way of life.

Not the same thing at all.
News serves a purpose... to educate, inform, promote understanding and maybe inspire change. Journalists perform a job, a public service. Even when journalist do get captured in war torn dangerous places they know it's part of job and that it may happen.
This guy book a tour via an agency called "Young Pioneers."
Here is what is on their website about visiting NK...
http://www.youngpioneertours.com
" Young Pioneer Tours is an adventure travel company formed in 2008 and based in mainland China. Specialising in North Korea tours, we provide “budget travel to destinations your mother would rather you stayed away from”.
"We are renowned and rated as one of the best North Korea travel operators with our unparalleled experience, fun way of doing things...
As well as seeing the must see sights in Pyongyang and visiting the DMZ, we provide tours to various locations within North Korea. So whether you’re looking to compete in the Pyongyang Marathon, experience the spectacular sights of Mt Paektu, ski at the world class Masikryong Ski resort, explore the extreme North East of the country, or visit Rason city – North Korea’s Special Economic Zone, we have itineraries to suit all travellers."

This kid wasn't on a mission to foster understanding or risk his life smuggling out video tape or information to help the Korean people.... or even on a mission to bring food to starving people. He was there to do "North Korea the fun way." He was ill equipped to do that.

The grand tour of old in 2017.
___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

That's a pretty clear distinction. And I totally get where you're coming from in critiquing that organization and how it's kinda specific to white people. By characterizing NK an 'adventure'...they are trivializing the real suffering that takes place. But I'm still hesitant to include EVERYONE who visits NK with the likes of that group. I still think we can make another distinction.

To be honest...I guess I'm trying to distinguish the friend I have described in post 149 from something like this organization. I still think there's function and a legitimate reason to explore the world and not paint everyone with the same brush as we would this particular organization. One can also think of the slippery slope. Theres plenty of countries that are guilty of human rights abuse. Do we isolate ourselves from Saudi Àrabia and China and Russia too?

Just dont make it everyone else's fault if you get caught slipping going some where you knew was the impossible to get back from if things go sideways. I don't think we should risk international diplomatic juice and money on peoples burning desire to see the most hostile places in the world. The USA shouldn't subsidize this. Understanding the risk is yours to take.

___________________________________________________________


DJTB YOMM

It's one thing to say this is a lesson on the limits of white privilege versus saying, "That’s what the hell he gets. Good for him!”


>The death, destruction and famine of an entire country is not
>a "extreme vacation" to "build character" but a crime against
>humanity if this young man and his family understood and had
>reverence for that he would still be here today. It wouldn't
>shock me if this experience was going to appear on grad school
>applications or as a spicy hook on cover letters.
>Someone compared vacaying to NK to taking spring break in Nazi
>Germany. I agree, that is what it is like.
>This whole thing is a prime example of how white privilege
>harms white people. The world is not a Disney land. Shit, they
>are feeding people to dogs over there as punishment if reports
>are to be believed. I'm sorry this young man is dead but
>hopefully we can bring focus back onto actual North Koreans. I
>hope y'all are as interested in nonwhite folks dying over
>there in a few months when this dies down.
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>
>DJTB YOMM


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

instead of trying to DA the thread up to defend white folk and shit on Black people.

He could've put that shield down a long time ago.

roasting blacks

Yall are so all up in your feelings yall can't see how a piece like this ultimately hurts black people and the cause so I'll say it one last time and then I am done:

Black People should not be making "if he had only complied with the law he would not be dead" arguments. Moreoever, we should never be glad anyone dies at the hands of the government.

If you can't grasp how that is shortsighted and undermines the greater cause, then I don't know what else to tell yall.



>roasting blacks


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

who the fuck has the audacity to think white folk care about what we say or think when it comes to killing us in these streets?

sit the fuck down and hold this: http://www.thesmokersclub.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/devin5adj.jpg

it's so short sighted to act like censoring our reaction to Otto will change our plight in America.

FOH nigga. This is how you end up shocked your white neighbor don't fuck with you. We aren't them and they ain't us. They will never treat us the same so stop caping for them thinking it will somehow trickle down to us.

>Yall are so all up in your feelings yall can't see how a
>piece like this ultimately hurts black people and the cause so
>I'll say it one last time and then I am done:

Respectability politics

>Black People should not be making "if he had only complied
>with the law he would not be dead" arguments. Moreoever, we
>should never be glad anyone dies at the hands of the
>government.
>

You the only one saying that just like that cheering thing. Nobody is celebrating his death.

>If you can't grasp how that is shortsighted and undermines the
>greater cause, then I don't know what else to tell yall.
>
>

The greater cause is what ? Making a convincing argument to the person or group who is not supporting the crazy idea that the police should not murder blacks.

Yeah I'm sure it's someone out there with the power to change things, saying I was just about to support until, people posting on a message board agreed with an article about white privilege in NK

ugh... I know his coworkers buy him all types of drinks to get him going

"if only more Black people were like you Buddy.. if only more were like you"

and he laughing with them.

cause it would be hypocritical and set us back years.

and they don't work for me.



>and he laughing with them.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Where they do that at?

Trying to figure out if y'all telling on yourselves with that very specific scenario.

>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>ugh... I know his coworkers buy him all types of drinks to
>get him going
>
>"if only more Black people were like you Buddy.. if only more
>were like you"
>
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>You the only one saying that just like that cheering thing.
>Nobody is celebrating his death.

1. The piece leads with “That’s what the hell he gets. Good for him!”. How is that not gloating or co-signing his outcome? I know the piece was written before he died but is not the general thrust of the article is that he deserves whatever happens to him?




>
>>If you can't grasp how that is shortsighted and undermines
>the
>>greater cause, then I don't know what else to tell yall.
>>
>>
>
>The greater cause is what ? Making a convincing argument to
>the person or group who is not supporting the crazy idea that
>the police should not murder blacks.


2. Yes dude that's the cause. Let me ask another way, how do you think change will come with regards to police stop killing black people IF it does not involve changing peoples mind who are currently indifferent about it? Do you think the cause does NOT involve persuading people that the cause is moral and just?





>
>Yeah I'm sure it's someone out there with the power to change
>things, saying I was just about to support until, people
>posting on a message board agreed with an article about white
>privilege in NK
>


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>>You the only one saying that just like that cheering
>thing.
>>Nobody is celebrating his death.
>
>1. The piece leads with “That’s what the hell he gets.
>Good for him!”. How is that not gloating or co-signing his
>outcome? I know the piece was written before he died but is
>not the general thrust of the article is that he deserves
>whatever happens to him?
>

because he voluntarily went on vacation in NK. Who does that? If Dennis Rodman never returns from NK people will say the same thing? The fuck you doing hanging out in NK bruh?
>
>
>
>>
>>>If you can't grasp how that is shortsighted and undermines
>>the
>>>greater cause, then I don't know what else to tell yall.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The greater cause is what ? Making a convincing argument to
>>the person or group who is not supporting the crazy idea
>that
>>the police should not murder blacks.
>
>
>2. Yes dude that's the cause. Let me ask another way, how do
>you think change will come with regards to police stop killing
>black people IF it does not involve changing peoples mind who
>are currently indifferent about it? Do you think the cause
>does NOT involve persuading people that the cause is moral and
>just?
>
Police won't stop killing Black folk. Sorry, it won't happen. It's what they do. Only way it stops is if Superman reverses the earths rotation. That's a lost cause so please stop telling Black folks to "shhh, or they will hear you"

They don't care. Tears, begging, pleading, marching, etc.. it doesn't work. Watch the dash cam footage bruh. They are shooting into cars with kids and women in it and getting off. They are killing pregnant women in front of their kids...

stop telling us what WE need to do. Tell white folk.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>Yeah I'm sure it's someone out there with the power to
>change
>>things, saying I was just about to support until, people
>>posting on a message board agreed with an article about
>white
>>privilege in NK
>>
>
>
>**********
>"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then
>they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson
>
>"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

>>You the only one saying that just like that cheering
>thing.
>>Nobody is celebrating his death.
>
>1. The piece leads with “That’s what the hell he gets.
>Good for him!”. How is that not gloating or co-signing his
>outcome? I know the piece was written before he died but is
>not the general thrust of the article is that he deserves
>whatever happens to him?
>
>

If that's all the piece said that would be gloating but you can't cherry pick that and ignore the rest of the article to make a point.

Is it fair to do that to the author ?

>
>>
>>>If you can't grasp how that is shortsighted and undermines
>>the
>>>greater cause, then I don't know what else to tell yall.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The greater cause is what ? Making a convincing argument to
>>the person or group who is not supporting the crazy idea
>that
>>the police should not murder blacks.
>
>
>2. Yes dude that's the cause. Let me ask another way, how do
>you think change will come with regards to police stop killing
>black people IF it does not involve changing peoples mind who
>are currently indifferent about it? Do you think the cause
>does NOT involve persuading people that the cause is moral and
>just?
>
>

King was non violent and they still attacked him. The only way to change these indifferent people is if they have something to lose. Money, peace, whatever it takes once they have skin in the game they will change.

>If that's all the piece said that would be gloating but you
>can't cherry pick that and ignore the rest of the article to
>make a point.
>
>Is it fair to do that to the author ?


Not cherrying picking. That's the theme of the piece. Nowhere did she pivot from that position.

You reaching trying to read into this somehow that she wasn't trying to convey "good for him"



>
>>
>>>
>>>>If you can't grasp how that is shortsighted and undermines
>>>the
>>>>greater cause, then I don't know what else to tell yall.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>The greater cause is what ? Making a convincing argument to
>>>the person or group who is not supporting the crazy idea
>>that
>>>the police should not murder blacks.
>>
>>
>>2. Yes dude that's the cause. Let me ask another way, how
>do
>>you think change will come with regards to police stop
>killing
>>black people IF it does not involve changing peoples mind
>who
>>are currently indifferent about it? Do you think the cause
>>does NOT involve persuading people that the cause is moral
>and
>>just?
>>
>>
>
>King was non violent and they still attacked him. The only way
>to change these indifferent people is if they have something
>to lose. Money, peace, whatever it takes once they have skin
>in the game they will change.


So King failed and this other strategy you speak is the way to do it? Help me out, explained to me how that worked in that past?




**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

We are on the mountaintop. Black people are judged by the content of our character,we can be satisfied because black FOLK are not the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. Justice is rolling down like waters and righteousness.


>>If that's all the piece said that would be gloating but you
>>can't cherry pick that and ignore the rest of the article to
>>make a point.
>>
>>Is it fair to do that to the author ?
>
>
>Not cherrying picking. That's the theme of the piece. Nowhere
>did she pivot from that position.
>
>You reaching trying to read into this somehow that she wasn't
>trying to convey "good for him"
>
>


So when the author says this

" I’m a black woman though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures which ensure their supremacy at my expense. He is now an outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for help. I get it."

she is gloating and cheering the way Black women are treated in the U.S. ? Nothing in the paragraph I quoted is a pivot from the position of gloating and cheering ?



>
>So King failed and this other strategy you speak is the way to
>do it? Help me out, explained to me how that worked in that
>past?
>
>

I didn't say King failed. I am saying if non-violence didn't change people who are indifferent and apathetic, then a persuasive argument is not going to get the job done.

This other strategy has was not used in the past.

Now explain how people who are indifferent to the murder of Tamir Rice will change if the hear us attack the author of a piece about white privilege in NK ?

>We are on the mountaintop. Black people are judged by the
>content of our character,we can be satisfied because black
>FOLK are not the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police
>brutality. Justice is rolling down like waters and
>righteousness.

So just to confirm because I don't do sarcasm well on the internet, I think you are being sarcastic and implying MLK was not successful because all those things you mention have not happened. Got it.


>
>
>>>If that's all the piece said that would be gloating but you
>>>can't cherry pick that and ignore the rest of the article
>to
>>>make a point.
>>>
>>>Is it fair to do that to the author ?
>>
>>
>>Not cherrying picking. That's the theme of the piece.
>Nowhere
>>did she pivot from that position.
>>
>>You reaching trying to read into this somehow that she
>wasn't
>>trying to convey "good for him"
>>
>>
>
>
>So when the author says this
>
>" I’m a black woman though. The hopeless fear Warmbier is
>now experiencing is my daily reality living in a country where
>white men like him are willfully oblivious to my suffering
>even as they are complicit in maintaining the power structures
>which ensure their supremacy at my expense. He is now an
>outsider at the mercy of a government unfazed by his cries for
>help. I get it."
>
>she is gloating and cheering the way Black women are treated
>in the U.S. ? Nothing in the paragraph I quoted is a pivot
>from the position of gloating and cheering ?

Not at all. Her point is now Warmbier is getting a taste of what it's like to be a black woman in the US. "Good for Him" There is no pivot there. Got me questioning your reading comprehension skills if you saying otherwise.


>
>
>
>>
>>So King failed and this other strategy you speak is the way
>to
>>do it? Help me out, explained to me how that worked in that
>>past?
>>





My point, my final point, is that I am of the belief that the Civil Rights Movement was a smashing success. The most successful movement of it's kind. And part of that success of that movement was it made segregation a moral issue and it created empathy for the people in the struggle. I also think the movement was successful because it PERSUADED people who were otherwise indifferent or hostile to the cause into believing segregation was wrong.

I can't understand this idea that Movements aren't about persuading people.I'll need you to explain that one to me. Actually, don't waste your/my time...



Now if you have been following my argument from the start I've never had the position that we need to treat White Folks fairly if we want to be treated fairly. Never has been my position and I don't think that was ever an element of any successful Civil Right Movement. That you all keep going to that idea makes me think you don't really understand my point or how movements work in general.




>I didn't say King failed. I am saying if non-violence didn't
>change people who are indifferent and apathetic, then a
>persuasive argument is not going to get the job done.

Again, my point is that MLK's approach did change people. It was a success. I think you got in your mind that it was a failure because it didn't change everything and we aren't "on the mountain top" but if that's your expecations for success I would say, grow the fuck up.


>
>This other strategy has was not used in the past.
>
>Now explain how people who are indifferent to the murder of
>Tamir Rice will change if the hear us attack the author of a
>piece about white privilege in NK ?


I never said it would. Why would it? Can you keep up?

As far as I concerned this discussion here is an internal conversation among black people about strategy and how to persuade people. I think gloating over the excessive punishment of a kid by indulging in the arguments used to justify killing black kids is a terribly ineffective way to persuade people.

I think the author could have had a persuasive argument that creates empathy for black people if she said what Sarah Bellum said which is comparing being white in NK to being black in the US. That's a point worth making.

Or to flip the question. What's the point of this article? Who is the audience? Is the intent to persuade anyone of anything? If so, do you think this piece would effectively persuade a person who was already indifferent to police on black violence?



**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

You didn't read or listen to the I Have a Dream speech by Dr Martin the Luther King ? Those words came from his speech.

>
>So just to confirm because I don't do sarcasm well on the
>internet, I think you are being sarcastic and implying MLK was
>not successful because all those things you mention have not
>happened. Got it.
>

No I'm saying the struggle continues. You asked a terrible question and I tried to help you understand the fight didn't end or stop. The following from the speech that you never heard or read.

"There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, “When will you be satisfied?” We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied, as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the Negro’s basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one."

We made progress but we don't call it a wrap and judge based on one period. Grading all tactics and strategy's with a pass or fail grade.


>
>Not at all. Her point is now Warmbier is getting a taste of
>what it's like to be a black woman in the US. "Good for Him"
>There is no pivot there. Got me questioning your reading
>comprehension skills if you saying otherwise.
>


So it doesn't matter what she said you still would say she was gloating and cheering. Here are your words

"Listen the author could have made an excellent point tying the death of Otto Warmbier to Philando Castile by making the point of being white in north korea gives a glimpse of what it's like to black in america, where non-compliance with minor police directives can cost you your life. If you can empathize with Otto, then you should empathize with Philando."

>
>
>My point, my final point, is that I am of the belief that the
>Civil Rights Movement was a smashing success. The most
>successful movement of it's kind. And part of that success of
>that movement was it made segregation a moral issue and it
>created empathy for the people in the struggle. I also think
>the movement was successful because it PERSUADED people who
>were otherwise indifferent or hostile to the cause into
>believing segregation was wrong.
>

It's not over how can it be a smashing success ? What kind of sheltered bubble are you living in ? You really believe it changed people who were indifferent and hostile ? Those people were dragged kicking and screaming they didn't say, hey segregation is wrong now I see it. Redlining, white flight these are the people who were persuaded ?

>I can't understand this idea that Movements aren't about
>persuading people.I'll need you to explain that one to me.
>Actually, don't waste your/my time...
>

Based on what you wrote Malcolm, Martin, Marvin and any Black man or woman who ever lived couldn't explain it to you.

>
>Now if you have been following my argument from the start I've
>never had the position that we need to treat White Folks
>fairly if we want to be treated fairly. Never has been my
>position and I don't think that was ever an element of any
>successful Civil Right Movement. That you all keep going to
>that idea makes me think you don't really understand my point
>or how movements work in general.
>

I don't think you understand people. I don't think you understand the history of the Civil Rights movement.


>
>Again, my point is that MLK's approach did change people. It
>was a success. I think you got in your mind that it was a
>failure because it didn't change everything and we aren't "on
>the mountain top" but if that's your expecations for success I
>would say, grow the fuck up.
>

Look the MLK thing you keep pushing is a straw man and you are beating it into the ground. It's silly to say any criticism or disagreement with MLK's is calling him and the Civil Rights Movement a failure.


>>
>>Now explain how people who are indifferent to the murder of
>>Tamir Rice will change if the hear us attack the author of a
>>piece about white privilege in NK ?
>
>
>I never said it would. Why would it? Can you keep up?
>

You mean keep up with this vague group of people we need to persuade for the cause ?

>As far as I concerned this discussion here is an internal
>conversation among black people about strategy and how to
>persuade people. I think gloating over the excessive
>punishment of a kid by indulging in the arguments used to
>justify killing black kids is a terribly ineffective way to
>persuade people.

You said persuade people over and over and over but you never say who these people are, if you are not talking about persuading conservative people who say Blacks had it coming when they are killed by police then name names.
.
>I think the author could have had a persuasive argument that
>creates empathy for black people if she said what Sarah Bellum
>said which is comparing being white in NK to being black in
>the US. That's a point worth making.

No you don't up above you called that

"getting a taste of
what it's like to be a black woman in the US."

>Or to flip the question. What's the point of this article?
>Who is the audience? Is the intent to persuade anyone of
>anything? If so, do you think this piece would effectively
>persuade a person who was already indifferent to police on
>black violence?
>

If anyone watches the police murder an unarmed Black person and get away with it, no argument or article is going to persuade them it was wrong, when they don't use common sense.

>Let me ask another way, how do
>you think change will come with regards to police stop killing
>black people IF it does not involve changing peoples mind who
>are currently indifferent about it? Do you think the cause
>does NOT involve persuading people that the cause is moral and
>just?


It's just not going to happen. You think these people don't know that things are wrong? It's a waste of time trying to convince a world that hates us to love us. Gotta love ourselves, muscle-up and force a change, get some power.

and they have used it against us.

It's disgusting to hear people suggest if we were just a little bit nicer we would have a nicer outcome.

Fuuuuck that.

he said it already worked during the Civil Rights Movement, MLK persuaded indifferent and hostile people to see that segregation was wrong.

this site/writer is putting some more sauce on it with the headline

but we all see whats going on here all the same


http://deadline.com/2017/06/obama-otto-warmbier-death-statement-1202116812/

Obama Issues Statement On Otto Warmbier After Being Blasted By Donald Trump & Man’s Parents



by Lisa de Moraes

June 20, 2017 10:57am






Former President Barack Obama has issued a statement about Otto Warmbier, the American college student who died this week, days after being released from North Korea in a coma after more than a year in captivity.




Related

Sean Spicer: No Chance Yet To Ask Donald Trump About Russia Election Tamper



“During the course of the Obama Administration, we had no higher priority than securing the release of Americans detained overseas,” Obama spokesman Ned Price said in the statement. “Their tireless efforts resulted in the release of at least 10 Americans from North Korean custody during the course of the Obama administration.”

Added Price, who was National Security Counsel spokesperson during Obama’s administration: “It is painful that Mr. Warmbier was not among them, but our efforts on his behalf never ceased, even in the waning days of the administration. Our thoughts and prayers are with Mr. Warmbier’s family and all who had the blessing of knowing him.”









Warmbier’s father blasted Obama during a news conference at the time of his son’s release, when cued up with a question as to what more could have been done to secure the young man’s release before Donald Trump entered the White House.

“The question is, do I think the past administration could have done more?” he shot back. “I think the results speak for themselves.”

President Trump similarly asserted this week that “the results would have been different” had Warmbier been brought home sooner. He did not elaborate but added, “He should have been brought home that day.”

Warmbier had been sentenced to 15 years of hard labor after being found guilty of trying to steal a propaganda poster from a hotel during a January 2016 visit to North Korea’s capital.

What a fucking disgrace. I'm pointing out the obvious....but this is a man with absolutely NO principles. Whatever one might think about Obama's politics....you cannot deny that he is a man of principles. To my mind...he might be the strongest archetype we have right now standing for the classic liberal that is under attack from all sides. I really hope he seizes that role. I truly think Obama's most important life work and legacy building might still be ahead of him. Our society needs a leader.

Bee Safe Tho.