For those unfamiliar with either term....

"Monday Morning Quarterback" = One who criticizes or passes judgment from a position of hindsight.

"Armchair A&R" = Possibly a term with OKP origins...but basically, folks who may or may not have any music industry experience that speaks in detail about decisions/moves they would have made concerning the development of a specific artist.

With that...what are some artists you feel didn't live up to their overall potential, and what would you have done differently?

It could be a Terrence Trent D'arby type, who became relatively big for a short period, but didn't live up to the MJ/Prince tag that some folks may have thought.

It could be a Homeboys Only type group that literally no one knows about, but that you feel had potential to become the next NWA/Geto Boys (at least post a link of their song, though).

You can mention anything...it could be "they should have worked with Pharrell instead of Rodney Jerkins." Or "I wouldn't have let them sign to L.A. Reid, they should have gone independent." Even as detailed as "they should have never pushed as their first single, it gave folks the wrong idea about them from the jump."

I know Double 0 gonna come with some gems for sure, but I just want to see how y'all feel about a lot of artists. I'm especially curious after dealing with some artists this year who are in kind of a "what's gonna happen next" type stage. Even hearing L.A. Reid admit that he messed up by trying to force Future to go commercial/radio makes me wonder.

Not as a single, not as an internet bootleg. The album was bangin as hell, but that single sucked horribly and didn't represent a single thing about him or the rest of the album. RIP Natina, but man: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7--cBpWnJs

I KNEW THIS WAS THE SONG...

"I wrote her verse"

"she wrote mine.... smh"

I want to listen to it raht nah

hearing a song for the first time. Like, I can remember the exact freeway on-ramp I was entering when it came on. When those harpsichords came in........dude. Almost screamed out loud, shit was way too dope

and yes, on onsite is the bomb.

Fred Wreck adopted that 2001 style and it was on fire

...he should've submitted that track for a kid's movie soundtrack. It sounds too kiddy for a regular album; especially with his image.



Since 1976

the ultimate.


As a solo artist, never seemed like there was enough "there" for her - even though she had a good amount of appeal.


An all female band with Joi at the top would have been thorough.

yes

in the 80's

I Miss You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvlhHJNppQg

Meeting in The Ladies Room
https://youtu.be/_odTlZaoLCA

It's understood that he was under Eminem, but this type song should have ONLY been released by Eminem. It didn't fit his persona, and it was much much wacker than "The set up" and "Oh."

Clearly an Eminem track.



Since 1976

Em shoulda at least had a verse. Nah, fuckit...he shoulda led with 'Oh' and called it a day.

while it was an okay album, it was like they turned their backs on their core fans.

Down south cats should steer clear away from him. Good thing Jeezy did that one Boyz N Da Hood album and bounced.

old songs from last decade. That shit just didn't work.

Yung Joc worked for a few weeks, though

You Don't Want Drama and Don't Make. I don't remember nothing past those.

fall, 2001:

don't drop a single. just make a cameo in a few rap videos.
make ppl be like, "ain't that MJ?"

maybe do a shoulder pop and snap his fingers.


spring 2002:

sing the HOOK on a few neptunes tracks.
not a full song.

just the hook.
make ppl be like, "oh shit... it's MJ."


summer 2002: drop a single that has the neptunes producing it.

fall 2002: do an MTV unplugged special. no pyrotehnics. no dancing. just a piano, some accoustic guitars, and MJ sitting down, singing on a stool.

spring 2002: release an album. neptunes do production with quincy jones doing oversight. (No, MJ didn't NEED quincy. but let's face it, they both did their best work together, and quincy would tell MJ, "no, do it again." or, "the album is great. release it.)

I felt it made perfect sense in 91-92 to collab with Heavy D. And looking back, it's hilarious that Teddy Riley had some of his Wreckx-n-effects members rapping on MJ's album...that STILL has to be their claim to fame, LMAO.

But with everything else, yeah I think him + Neptunes at the time woulda been !!!!!!!!!! I've honestly never been a huge Darkchild fan, so that move didn't do much for me.

but if i was his A&R person, we would have had a few drinks
and i would have leveled with him.

assuming we could get him to cooperate, it would have worked.

i mean, it wouldn't be hard to bring him back.
the reaction when he died proved that ppl still loved him.


all he had to do was... be slightly less weird,
slightly more relatable, and hop on a neptunes track.

case though, it was ehhhh

Justin Timberlakes whole career is just Michael jackson Throwaway tracks....

and those songs were third tier for his skill set. i dig "U don't have to call" however that fit Usher better since while he is good at times and can sing, the cat ain't no real songs though.

those songs were quarter pieces and tombstone pizza worthy

just like he improved what teddy riley's stuff for dangerous.

... I almost want to take it back to 'Bad'.

I know now that BAD (the album) is Mike putting his foot down as not just King of Pop, but Emperor of Pop.

my main thing about Mike in that era is visuals.

The Bad album cover is iconic because it's MJ.

But I'm beginning to think the whole image of "Bad" should have been Mike as "Darryl" (in the black and white), not the black leather.

"Leave Me Alone" should have been ON the main album, not a bonus CD cut. It should have also been the "centerpiece" song.

"The Way You Make Me Feel" should have been the "centerpiece" video.

and the song "Speed Demon" should have had a different video altogether.

(As should have "Liberian Girl". That video is bullshit.)

>... I almost want to take it back to 'Bad'.
>
>I know now that BAD (the album) is Mike putting his foot down
>as not just King of Pop, but Emperor of Pop.
>
>my main thing about Mike in that era is visuals.
>
>The Bad album cover is iconic because it's MJ.
>
>But I'm beginning to think the whole image of "Bad" should
>have been Mike as "Darryl" (in the black and white), not the
>black leather.
>
>"Leave Me Alone" should have been ON the main album, not a
>bonus CD cut. It should have also been the "centerpiece"
>song.
>
>"The Way You Make Me Feel" should have been the "centerpiece"
>video.
>
>and the song "Speed Demon" should have had a different video
>altogether.
>
>(As should have "Liberian Girl". That video is bullshit.)

I find it a slight bit interesting that it wasn't nearly as big as Thriller, yet it still seems to have confirmed him as the King/Emperor of Pop. Almost saying, "Thriller wasn't all I got!"

Now, did it at all lose his Black crowd? Or was "The way you make me feel" enough to keep them?

let me be clear though.

not all of us believed he had vitiligo (which is unfortunate, because he did)...

we didn't like his constant nose jobs...

and Mike was clearly out of step with the zeitgeist when he
tried to fight wesley snipes in a leotard with buckles and zippers.
(Hip Hop was clearly the new direction in Black music by the time
Mike released Bad)



but we were ALWAYS rooting for Mike.
even when Butterflies dropped, when I was on the campus of Hampton Univerity, I heard young Black kids bumping butterflies.


the ppl that "abandoned" Mike, for the most part, didn't look like us.

The Blacks didn't ever think that Mike was Bad,
but Mike was always Mike. he was in a class by himself
after Motown 25, and he kept that place in our hearts until the day he died.

Hip Hop was the music of the day,
but we never outgrew Mike.

we fucked with every single except for Blood on the Dancefloor.

and even if you didn't buy the album,
you didn't look sideways at folks bumping Mike.

The Blacks were always with him.


>I find it a slight bit interesting that it wasn't nearly as
>big as Thriller, yet it still seems to have confirmed him as
>the King/Emperor of Pop. Almost saying, "Thriller wasn't all I
>got!"
>
>Now, did it at all lose his Black crowd? Or was "The way you
>make me feel" enough to keep them?

an alternate universe where:

- Mike came out of a 6-year exile after hearing "Control" and the Bad video was "Darryl" (not looking much unlike that infamous "Ebony Future" picture) doing some New Jack Swing. The album was still called "Bad"
- Mike goes into hiding for 6 more years after touring the world. comes out with Dangerous, but "Can't Let Her Get Away" was the lead single before dropping the "Remember The Time" bomb

>but we were ALWAYS rooting for Mike.
>even when Butterflies dropped, when I was on the campus of
>Hampton Univerity, I heard young Black kids bumping
>butterflies.

yes. "Butterflies" (why that song was relegated to an also-ran in the Michael catalog except by his biggest fans is beyond me)... when I heard that on the radio I just KNEW the Pepsi Fire didn't happen and the Mike I remember seeing all over TV and hearing all over car rides was somehow back... in spirit.

>The Blacks didn't ever think that Mike was Bad,
>but Mike was always Mike. he was in a class by himself
>after Motown 25, and he kept that place in our hearts until
>the day he died.

Indeed. I think of the BET Awards. This was Mike at one of his lowest points (IMO). but when he showed up all of a sudden in that really dry James Brown performance... the amount of grown ass people just getting off their feet and jumping with excitement. famous people who could generate something approaching that just by being on a stage. they all showed out for Mike.

that's how you know how Mike was really received.

106 & park was playing on the tv.
people were eating and talking in the caf.

the old skool joint of the day was MJ, "smooth criminal."


the entire cafeteria... i mean everybody...
stopped eating, stopped talking, and watched smooth criminal.

before Mike came on we couldn't even hear the TV.
but it was all silent. somebody turned up the tv.

ppl walking in to the cafetria stopped with their trays in their hands to watch the video standing up.



that is how we felt about Mike

I argue with strong confidence that Invincible could have been insanely good if he takes even some of the songs The Neptunes tried to throw his way. I can never get over how crazy it would’ve been for him to have Like I Love You with Clipse. It would have been a WRAP. Throw in you don’t have to call? Maaaaaan looka here! Imagine him hitting that ‘situaaaaatiiioooons..will ariiiiise!’, CURTAINS!

I’m not even saying he needed to evade Darkchild. Butterflies is all that but he could’ve made an album that would have changed r&b history for the better. I even think it saves his life. I know, that’s crazy. But imagine if he makes an album and it HITS LIKE A TON OF BRICKS, everyone loves the shit out of it, and he gets another real run. And imagine him also doing hooks and videos like you planned for him AFTER the album hits!? Some shit like Kanye somehow getting him on Graduation. I mean really!?

>fall, 2001:
>
>don't drop a single. just make a cameo in a few rap videos.
>make ppl be like, "ain't that MJ?"
>
>maybe do a shoulder pop and snap his fingers.
>
>
>spring 2002:
>
>sing the HOOK on a few neptunes tracks.
>not a full song.
>
>just the hook.
>make ppl be like, "oh shit... it's MJ."
>
>
>summer 2002: drop a single that has the neptunes producing it.
>
>
>fall 2002: do an MTV unplugged special. no pyrotehnics. no
>dancing. just a piano, some accoustic guitars, and MJ sitting
>down, singing on a stool.
>
>spring 2002: release an album. neptunes do production with
>quincy jones doing oversight. (No, MJ didn't NEED quincy. but
>let's face it, they both did their best work together, and
>quincy would tell MJ, "no, do it again." or, "the album is
>great. release it.)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

got it, and it helped the build up into Confessions/Yeah, which was basically his peak. But man...people don't all agree, but "You don't have to call" was just much, much better than "You rock my world." I get that some folks feel it may have sounded too much like "MJ lite" and that it even had a fake "Rock with you" vibe, but nah. The 3rd verse/breakdown with MJ killing that? Yeah, I think Invincible would have sold 30% more with just this one track, especially if the video was hot. They could have even used a similar concept to "You rock my world" with Chris Tucker in it

"Get ready..for your blessing..."

light skinned guys

I would've loved ALL those Neptunes demos that Usher & JT got to have been recorded by MJ..

shit like Senorita.. man!

Woulda been HUGE, and even woulda been a major hit for the Latin world! Basically their "Liberian girl" LOL

>I would've loved ALL those Neptunes demos that Usher & JT got
>to have been recorded by MJ..
>
>shit like Senorita.. man!


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

and rolled on the floor in laughter

"Yeah — either I toss it, or the artist tosses it. Like, “I’m a Slave 4 U” was made for Janet Jackson. Justin Timberlake’s first album — all those songs, with the exception of “Like I Love You,” were songs I made for Michael Jackson. His manager didn’t like them. Somehow I think Michael didn’t like them either, though. Because when I finally met him, he sang all those songs back to me, and said, “Those songs should have been for me.” And he just laughed. He fell out, just like I have all my life — when something is super funny my knees literally give out, and no matter where it is, I’m on the ground. He just fell on the couch, and he was really tall — six-foot-something. Filled up the whole couch. And he fell, rolled on the floor, kicking like a kid, laughing. But he sang those songs to me and he sang them just like Justin. And then he sang “You Don’t Have to Call” to me, and what was so interesting was all of them had Michael bridges. Like on the bridge of “You Don’t Have to Call,” the way I’d written it, I was trying to capture what Michael had already done with Quincy Jones and Rod Temperton, in the late seventies, early eighties. He sang those songs to me. So he kinda knew, but at the time they just weren’t good enough. But they were songs for him."

http://www.vulture.com/2013/06/pharrell-williams-interview.html

That's........................weird as fuck.

MJ wasn't gonna sing over 'beats'. He always gravitated to something that had some sort of compositional value. When Pharrel says he wrote those bridges for MJ...that just shows he doesn't know what he's doing when it comes to real songwriting. Those bridges were all cookie-cutter changes. I love Pharrell and all...he makes incredible beats. But I know what he's not. I can listen to the first ten seconds of a Pharrell production and KNOW what chord the bridge is going to.

Yea, Butterflies, Heaven can wait, and Til the dawn...but the rest???? You telling me "Senorita" and You don't have to call couldn't get with 2000 Watts? Or the title track, or "Heartbreaker," or "Umbreakable" with the Biggie verse?? Even comparing "You don't have to call" directly to "You rock my world"....definitely a stronger bridge with better chords.

I think simply....

P & Chad made songs that sounded TOO MJ...

MJ was damn near 40 yrs into a career. He was looking for innovation..

That Rodney Jerkins stuff was super weird..

inspired by MJ, but was still very modern sounding. Basically had the Soul/changes of MJ's older songs, but was 2001 as hell sonically. Even the BPM of them fit more with modern music than the 115 Disco.

With Rodney, his shit was trendy, but not dope trendy at all. Like when I first heard Aaliyah "Try again" that shit just sounded waaaaay different...futuristic, but dope as hell.

It just reminds me that the year 2000 lead to a LOT of forced futuristic sounding music, solely because "2000" in our minds was so technologically advanced. But listening to most of it now...ha.

I always remember how I felt when I first heard that song. Really and truly blew my mind - Tim became a legend to me after that song.

I get this as a statement but there's a lot to be said for producers (in this case The Neps) who are heavily inspired by someone and have still created a lane all of their own. I think if the two factions had committed to studio time, they could have come up with better things than what was on 'Justified' and 'U Don't Have to Call'.

specifically, because of the work Mike did with Teddy Riley.

Mike wanted something "different".

from what I know of Pharrell, he is capable of avoiding hackery. he just doesn't get a hit without going to that particular well too often (or at all; a lot of the NERD shit comes to mind -- even though it is well beloved by his fans and disciples).

Pharrell and Chad could come from the left field and Mike would have been with it, I think.

but not with that MJ-lite shit he gave Justin.

damn near my favorite posthumous Mike song is "Blue Gangsta" as produced by Timbo. I don't know if Mike would have been completely with it... but damn if that doesn't bang in a way I didn't expect!

Sorry to say but I'm more of a cynic than to think Mike was looking for a new sound - wasn't he working with Rodney jerkins, Akon, Ne-Yo and will.i.am from that point onwards. I always looked at it as he wanted hits, pure and simple. Not to say that Neptunes weren't making hits and in honesty I can't comment on the 'Justified' songs as I don't really know what he thought of them or when he even heard them.

I'd be more on board with the 'Mike wanted something new' theory if he hadn't been working with the biggest pop/R&B artists and producers of that period and had been working with people like, I dunno, Doc McKinney, Madlib, Danger Mouse or James Poyser.

It's interesting you mention Timabaland too: for some reason, his name is so rarely mentioned in reference to MJ but he would have been one of the absolutely top names to have made an MJ album.

I don't think Mike wanted to make Bad 2001. Or 'Still Off The Wall'.

I think he would have been open to whatever gave him a hit, but it had to be a little different than what was "out there" and especially his back catalog.

>It's interesting you mention Timabaland too: for some reason,
>his name is so rarely mentioned in reference to MJ but he
>would have been one of the absolutely top names to have made
>an MJ album.

and yeah. I would have been on-board with it, especially having heard his work for Xscape. I think he would have given Mike that pop-R&B mixture that worked well for him.

I like the Pharrel tracks better too. But it still makes sense to me. 'Heartbreaker' DOES have better changes than any Neptunes tracks. You have a point with '1000 watts'....but I think that's where MJ's love of industrial-type rock music came in. Apparently, he was obsessed with NIN at the time. So some of the tracks on Invincible kinda went in that edgier/angstier, more rock direction. It wasn't what I would've had MJ do....but yah.

makes sense.. from late 80s on he definitely fucked with industrial rock type-ish heavy..

in between all the teddy shit that is

what happened to her??
Shining Star is still bangin...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlH86ozV4QA

"Get ready..for your blessing..."

Church in Long Beach.

I kinda agree, I mean....she got in through Snoop, so just like most artists who come in through a Rapper, their sound is more based on them. "Shining star" was produced by Battlecat's understudy, and while they had a great sound for upbeat R&B tracks, just like Quik did, it wasn't enough to even give her a "Kay-Gee set" hit. The "Kay-Gee set" includes Ideal "Whatever," Next "Wifey" and "Too close," Koffee Brown "After party" and all those songs. I think she could have been great in that lane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzIfcpNqVSw

that's some Aretha status soul right there ^^^^

"Get ready..for your blessing..."

take anything from Snoop's camp seriously. But yeaaa man, I remember this....it was STRAIGHT up outta Church.

more!

That whole tape was dope
I alchemist dj scratch hi tek all provided heat

Brother soopafly on the keys....he plays so beautiful Don't you agree

"Every time we make love it feels soo good!"

Lord knows that's my shit!

don't try it.
don't criticize it.

you're prince.

do you.

That song coulda legit been a family reunion jam

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

https://twitter.com/dj_RTistic/status/647170870146805760

>don't try it.
>don't criticize it.
>
>you're prince.
>
>do you.

"Dead On It" was as far as it ever should have gone.

Prince should have been gone more "rock" in the '90s, IMO.
an occasional "Gett Off".

Still love that one. That rap bridge was/is cringeworthy though

Hopefully it woulda stopped him from bein a "rock star".

Also, Gucci Mane is the best A&R of the south but no one will give him
his credit. He broke everyone from Nikki & French to Pee Wee Longway and Thugga.

Not to go off topic but international players is one of the most, if not thee most
important song for the south but that's another post.

Dr. Dre (all those years Rakim was in LA signed to Aftermath).


I know Large Professor had problems with Eric B due to the "Let the Rhythm Hit 'em" album, but Eric B was out of the picture by the time Rakim was wasting years with Dr. Dre.

And Rakim hadn't truly been relevant (damn I hate that word) since the 80's, so I definitely understood the move. Plus, Dre had a dark enough sound that would have worked at the time...he wasn't gonna have him on poppy tracks or bouncy Southern beats.

It's the business side that didn't work, and then I heard they still had major creative differences when making the album. Now, musically, yeah he would have made a much better album with Large Pro, or even Hi-Tek/Dilla/Premo who were all primin at the time.

It seemed more a name for name thing, as the sound, style and sensibility of the two never seemed to match

As a huge fan of Large Pro (RIP Paul C), this could have been very interesting. Heads would have loved it, but it probably wouldn't have sold

I wish they didn't try and break Kiley Dean with Aaliyah nostalgia song (would've worked now btw)..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX2unGmi0dg


Her album was super dope.. one of the most forward thinking r&b records of the aughts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFZMojvsTu0&list=PL28B3F8974B7D7189

my batty ideas.

I suggested that she do a response song to "Hotline Bling" from the girls perspective.

I suggested that they cover this song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7xC6TDjms&list=PLF6E00B5EDF99CAAB&index=25

Also cover this Trippin Out by Curtis Mayfield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHeFTa22dZg

I think I am constantly telling him she should do covers of the originals of 90s hip-hop tracks.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

EDIT: nevermind

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

that sing rap shit ain't the move unless you look good or have a sure fire hit.

its rare that ANYTHING works these days w/o a "hit"

blowuptuate....
Maybe go the youtube star route...do some dope covers...etc..
I really thing she'd do well on the Foreign Exchange umbrella.....


"Get ready..for your blessing..."

Think Raury should've waited to drop his debut... till he had a smash 1st single....

Wish they would've tried to break Emile Sande differently in US. Possibly go in with US co-writers and craft a couple new singles..

Wish my whole "hipster-rap" era made some more united moves i.e. touring...

that shit was such a banger that he coulda took his 9 best songs and thrown them on there with that record and it woulda did numbers.




***
I'm tryna be better off, not better than...

Probably pushed em to really align themselves with Kanye as opposed to Kaz just being an entourage member, lol.

They all eating as is, but that wave would have had em SET straight through 2015 considering how successful movements like Soulection and the current generation of 'cool soul/funk are doing (thundercat, Hiatus, internet).

you do know they were SIGNED to GOOD Music/Sony right?

this was actually their 1st single before Sony dropped the label

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6oMAHl9PNU

The only ppl Sony kept on were Fonzworth & Cons.. So Fonz got the song

She's a more soulful artist than those songs presented her as.

But wouldn't you say those are the necessary to even have a career?

Thus, she never established the right following.

Her career would have been modest regardless, but at least she would have had the right focus.

Dont think you get it... Tweet wouldve never got A chance at all without those records... Marketing wise... I am not sure any label wouldve marketed to such a small segment of the population especially with how big missy was at the time

I'll tell you. With her most popular records not being a true representation of who she is as an artist.

She wasn't placed into the right arena from the start, which is a big reason why it wasn't sustained.

Instead of a steady build, she had two hits that were bigger than her. That never did her any real justice from a career longevity perspective.

Point blank: Hit or not, they weren't the right songs, and there are/were other options to have a hit record. They just didn't pick the right ones.

"Turn The Lights Off" from the next album was closer to her lane. But from the gate she had an identity issue.

Her issue were due to label problems not song ones... We would never know who tweet is w/o Oops

>We would never know who tweet is w/o Oops

Maybe YOU wouldn't know.

She didn't need "Oops". Another song with the vibe of Turn Da Lights Off could have been her first single and it would have been more authentic and a top 10 record with the right promotion.

Jazmine Sullivan didn't have an "Oops" and Missy was behind her first record too.

They came out in 2 different eras... 2 different age ranges and are 2 different artists..

Jazmine is in a lineage.. Jill, Chrisette Michelle etc..

Tweet was never that and dropping your first record at 30+ you dont have time to play around... IMO she waited too long in between records and couldn't catch the wave again 3 years later..

Also not sure what touring was like in between that time ..

Compound that with label issues....

dropping a "soulful" record for a non-existent audience wouldn't have been a smarter bet with everything else laid on the table.

EDIT: When I say non-existent I am saying that it wasn't like she came through some grass roots space a la black lily. No one knew Tweet before Oops and you can never correctly predict what you actual audience will be.

In my opinion, dropping a sex-driven pop song like Oops, in hindsight (which is the point of this post), wasn't correct. Regardless of any other label issues or whatever, it wasn't the right record for her, creatively. Hit or not, it didn't establish the right identity. As I said, there were other options to make a hit record. And with Missy behind it, it would have gotten attention, regardless. So again, to say that we wouldn't know she was isn't true. At all.

Am I saying that she was supposed to be Jill Scott or something? No. Am I saying it was the ONLY reason her career stalled? No. But it wasn't the right song to start her career with, period.

At her core she wasn't ever going to be that type of artist. If she had been marketed more authentically, and still with Missy's co-sign, she may have had a better chance of having a fan base that would have been interested in her, even 3 years later.

But hey, I "get it". It was a hit record, and even Call Me got her Verizon commercial or something. That's all well and good as it "worked" for the time. But unfortunately it's left her now without a true loyal following, because even with those hits, most of her would-be fanbase don't have a clear sense of her true identity.

90% of the time.... music has nothing to do with the outcome in this industry... a bad team and bad decisions are all you need to send a career (regardless of talent) down the wrong path.

There is a list of timbo and missy artists that never did anything pst a single.. basically ALL of them...

So saying Oops was the reason is wrong because none of them made it past the first 1 or 2 singles really..

If she wouldve presented herself as a more soulful artist she'd be in the same place given the team and situation...

>90% of the time.... music has nothing to do with the outcome
>in this industry... a bad team and bad decisions are all you
>need to send a career (regardless of talent) down the wrong
>path.
>

That's all well and good, but it is still the music business. So music and music "decisions" matter.

>There is a list of timbo and missy artists that never did
>anything pst a single.. basically ALL of them...
>

That's fine, but we're talking about Tweet. And one of the reasons this is true is because Timbo and Missy were often "too big" for the artists. Aaliyah (and Ginuwine, although his success dropped without them) may have been the only artist where this wasn't the case. And it wasn't because of talent, she just had undeniable star quality, and prior success. But Tweet isn't Aaliyah, which essentially speaks to the point I'm making. It wasn't a good fit for the longer term.

>So saying Oops was the reason is wrong because none of them
>made it past the first 1 or 2 singles really..
>

I never said that Oops was THE reason. Actually I JUST said the opposite.

>If she wouldve presented herself as a more soulful artist
>she'd be in the same place given the team and situation...

No, she wouldn't be in the same place, because she wouldn't have an identity issue. Point blank, she was never meant to be a pop star.

EDIT: I believe the disconnect here is that you're arguing success and I'm arguing identity. My critique is speaking to the misstep in establishing her identity, in suggesting from the beginning that the songs misrepresented her. I already conceded that her success would have been modest, relatively speaking, either way. But at least her identity would be more authentic. Having the Missy co-sign would have given her a shot, regardless. I don't believe that can be debated.

>>90% of the time.... music has nothing to do with the
>outcome
>>in this industry... a bad team and bad decisions are all you
>>need to send a career (regardless of talent) down the wrong
>>path.
>>
>
>That's all well and good, but it is still the music business.
>So music and music "decisions" matter.
>

Agreed.. But I don't think the moves were bad.. The first 2 singles gave people a reason to care.. They couldve made moves to make her "stick"

>>There is a list of timbo and missy artists that never did
>>anything pst a single.. basically ALL of them...
>>
>
>That's fine, but we're talking about Tweet. And one of the
>reasons this is true is because Timbo and Missy were often
>"too big" for the artists. Aaliyah (and Ginuwine, although
>his success dropped without them) may have been the only
>artist where this wasn't the case. And it wasn't because of
>talent, she just had undeniable star quality, and prior
>success. But Tweet isn't Aaliyah, which essentially speaks to
>the point I'm making. It wasn't a good fit for the longer
>term.
>

Aaliyah wasn't timbo and missy's artist.. There is a difference between creative team and TEAM TEAM. Aaliyah's uncle knew what to do..

>>So saying Oops was the reason is wrong because none of them
>>made it past the first 1 or 2 singles really..
>>
>
>I never said that Oops was THE reason. Actually I JUST said
>the opposite.
>


>>If she wouldve presented herself as a more soulful artist
>>she'd be in the same place given the team and situation...
>
>No, she wouldn't be in the same place, because she wouldn't
>have an identity issue. Point blank, she was never meant to
>be a pop star.

Was there ever any there there? anyway? Its not like she wrote these songs.. pretty sure Timb and missy gave her her swag so...

>>>90% of the time.... music has nothing to do with the
>>outcome
>>>in this industry... a bad team and bad decisions are all
>you
>>>need to send a career (regardless of talent) down the wrong
>>>path.
>>>
>>
>>That's all well and good, but it is still the music business.
>
>>So music and music "decisions" matter.
>>
>
>Agreed.. But I don't think the moves were bad.. The first 2
>singles gave people a reason to care.. They couldve made moves
>to make her "stick"
>

They weren't bad for business because they were hits. They just didn't match Tweet's true identity. You seem to be convinced that these songs were the only route to hit records and initial attention for Tweet. I don't. And Missy and Timbaland's track record supports that. Not sure what else to say.

I don't know what her identity ever was... thats kinda what I was saying... they gave it to her..

She definitely had an audience if she had chosen the soul route.

eehh...

Both Musiq & Saadiq were known quantities.. It wasn't their first albums or singles

and it debuted #1 on Billboard when it dropped. Not saying Tweet would've done the same thing, but the market was there for her to be successful in a more soulful lane if the music was done right.

It was a crowded field in 02.. especially for women

Missy wasnt doing what Jazzy Jeff and the rest of Philly was doing at the time.. So Tweet was not going to get those records.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNqFIbmRYac


That song got some decent radio play too. Lot's of artists don't get that (a second high-profile CD with a single that gets radio play - video play on BET as well).


It's kind of strange why no other songs from the 2nd CD got any light.


Just saying that this 1st single off the 2nd CD seemed to build off the first two singles from the first and "should" have continued Tweet's rise.

She got a raw deal on that 2nd album...

I'm just saying that she wasn't marketed to the "right" audience with "Oops Oh My". She would likely have a more faithful following (albeit modest) if they would have represented her correctly.

Much of the audience that would appreciate a song like this have never heard it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWmoMNSfi0

It seems like with her latest work, she's trying to be more in her authentic lane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOQ9q-SyFHY

Unfortunately most people don't have a true sense of who she is as an artist. "Oops Oh My", although it was a hit, wasn't really a good representation.

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

Movies I need y'all bastids to see so we can discuss:

Five Star - https://goo.gl/jBHbVv
Appropriate Behavior - http://goo.gl/isCzTM
Ma

How do you have an unreleased album with production from early 2000's Neptunes and Babyface?

-Signed to LaFace/Arista
-6 Neptunes tracks
-Babyface songwriting & production
-Early T.I. feature
-Left Eye feature

The only downside I can muster up is that Kelis was probably smashing Pharrell at the time. This is easily in the top 3 albums I downloaded from AudioGalaxy at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latrelle

Bruh.. Sorry that kelis album is fuckin amazing.. Latrelle while good.. Was not holding a candle to it

Emancipation for instance had some good stuff, but he puts out Betcha By Golly cover and Holy River..

Rave was just a terrible experience all around trying to a Santana thing with Clive and it was just bad

3121 Black Sweat was cool single but Te Amo Corazon as a single, hell naw that didn't work

most his albums have been spotty since 89 or whatever, yeah but he had some buried tracks on nearly every one that maybe could have hit but instead puts out the bullshit tracks most the time. I mean why not put out Time from AOA? That shit is dope.

>I mean why not put out Time from AOA? That shit is
>dope.

that shit took me back to 1986
and yet it sounded like 2014 at the same time

it's perfect.

Fonsworths "colours" mixtape came out in like 2010
He already touched on the classic man stuff
And dudes mixtape was actually good
I don't think he got a fair shake tbh

Like, was the whole Puffy's butler thing a gimmick? I never got how someone's butler could become an artist hanging out with OutKast and Kanye?

fonsworth can't rap and wasn't introduced to the rap world as a rapper but rather as puffy's manservant. although he tried to morph his image into something more substantive, if we're playing armchair a&r he should have released some raps or some other product upon our first introduction to him.

Don't allow Jimmy Henchmen to manage Game. This means no 50 beef which in turn means not leaving G-Unit.

Don't beef with Hov and his career is far, far, far, far, different than it is now. This means better promotion and performances on all award shows.

Pill - Never sign to MMG and take the Curren$y route.

Same for stalley neither of them should've did mmg

All things considered game has done well
And there was no beef with hov...did hov ever respond to any game taunts
In the long run leaving g unit was better for him I mean we've seen
How staying has helped Lloyd banks or buck ( he dropped two of the best gunk retail albums)

I like how game has established himself post g unit

>Same for stalley neither of them should've did mmg
>
>All things considered game has done well
>And there was no beef with hov...did hov ever respond to any
>game taunts
>In the long run leaving g unit was better for him I mean we've
>seen
>How staying has helped Lloyd banks or buck ( he dropped two of
>the best gunk retail albums)
>
>I like how game has established himself post g unit

Hov low-key got Game blackballed. Notice how Game is never at any award shows that Hov or Beyonce attend. This had everything to do with a scathing diss record Game released.

It wasn't just leaving G-Unit it was how he left the Unit. Dude could've left after his third album having taken sold 10 million records heralded as the future of the west coast. Game would be known for making solid records more than pointless beefs to the common person on the street.

Lloyd Banks is lazy when it comes to releasing music and Buck was disloyal. They hurt themselves whereas Game put out more commercially available material.

Fuckin sharp drop off after "Trap Goin Ham".

Jimmy iovine was excellent at pairing unaffiliated interscope artists with vanity label/crews (eminem, game, robin thicke)...

Who else on interscope (or anywhere) could've benefitted from those optics?

We needed it like a few months ago

by the time it dropped all it's best songs had been on radio/online for months. the album really had nothing new to offer

- Prince: after "Dead On It", stay the FUCK away from rap music. completely. you've made your contribution. you dissed and got a pass. because you're Prince.

- MJ (and Stevie Wonder): if you're going to collaborate, bring your A game or go home.

- Nas (after before I Am and Nastradamus are released): listen to those "stuck in the '90s"-ass niggas more often. please.

- (Because I'm Dr. Claw) Herbie: "Lite Me Up" was a great idea before moving on to the Laswell era, but you should have "sang" every song, and "Paradise" is the ONLY song that should have been w/o vocoder.

Remember this....

https://youtu.be/4A5OHPLyW3s

Well it was follow up with....

https://youtu.be/GJj5B-joaEQ

...and that was the end of Field Mob (the album was bangin tho)

I never saw it as a radio type of hit. But maaaan...that shit went HARD in Alabama/Florda/Georgia, and even now it'll still get love. Along with "Eat it up, beat it up."

And speaking of this....you know what I thought was wild? They really used half a verse from "Hip Hop Junkies!!" On a Southern club song in 2006! I won't quite say it was bold, but it surprisingly worked!

shoulda had a catchy club single ready for radio as a follow up

Man...

He really did have that opportunity... Ne-Yo single.. Flipside... they were setting him up to be some shit for real..

I Know This Girl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVflisEmSc0

It prolly wouldn't have worked tho.

...I'm pretty sure Peedi has a 90% finished album that Def Jam never dropped. Young Guru prolly has it on a hard drive chillin

>shoulda had a catchy club single ready for radio as a follow
>up

But all he needed was the right record. But things didn't pan out the right way for him, and he ended up recording songs like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzT1lbGAFV0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIP0rL24Vxk

I actually like both records, they are more interesting listens than the standard diss records. But it was clear it wasn't going to happen for him after he put these out. If he had more outside the box records before the falling out, maybe it would have done something for him.
We haven't really heard anything notable from dude since. The flow is still intact though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXnXqFWLpeY

more phyllis hyman type ballads/blues tunes/broadway type hits. enough with the songs for teens

It's grown-up R&B, just not dusties R&B.

it's disappointing. i need her to sing some dusties.

Since Missy is on Atlantic they should let Diplo/Mad Decent handle the record...

Have her kill Mad Decent block party type events and get crazy remixes from everyone..

I'm sure by the time the weekend is over WTF remixes will be crazy.

Bobby's not getting out anytime soon.... Abillyon isn't going to escape the Drake comparisons, he sounded like that when they signed him.
This record goes, it's over 8 months old they should have made a push to get it on the radio by now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDsXjBXF16I

They could change the rap (maybe get Fab for a verse), but that's about it. This song is hot. He has a couple other nice records on his mixtape too. Not sure how long you can sit on radio sounding records before they become outdated.

What is HE doing to get it popping though?

There is no video.. literally never heard of this kid...

song is real solid though.. great spring record...

>What is HE doing to get it popping though?
>
>There is no video.. literally never heard of this kid...
>
>song is real solid though.. great spring record...

He came home a few months before Bobby & Rowdy (GS9) got locked up. He could be involved in Bobby Shmurda & Rowdy Rebel's mess somehow, he might be trying to get out of a contract, who knows.

But if he's just sitting on his ass, after seeing his song get posted on youtube time and time again (probably has over 400k views total without a real video) then he doesn't want it. I want to believe it's more complicated than that.

I mean someone even made a GTA V music video for it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6AYYGI6qNA

But whose to say he is actually signed to epic...

I have no clue what he's doing outside of that... again never heard of him until 30 min ago..

>But whose to say he is actually signed to epic...
>
>I have no clue what he's doing outside of that... again never
>heard of him until 30 min ago..

a few tracks on his mixtape. There is an Epic Records logo on his mixtape.

https://dpjsgvx0fhwmn.cloudfront.net/albums/21990/large/ef2811a8283b34836057.jpg

Maybe he's signed to GS9 which is signed to Epic, and GS9 is trying to get out of that deal, or they are too caught up in legal matters to push his project. I put the honus on Epic in my initial reply, but I really just want to know what is going on with dude, and his project.

Hmm.. possible..

Who knows.. good luck to him.. like I've said above.. the core team is essential.

No writing except hooks.

.

I do have a few issues with the music on his last few albums though.

She released one of the best R&B albums last year, but it fizzled out after "2 on" ran it's course. "How Many Times" clearly sounded like the obvious second single, especially since future is super hot right now.

If Little Brother would've stayed together longer and got a better push from Atlantic, they could have been the Tribe/De La of this era. Their potential to be one of greatest groups in hip hop history was huge.

Despite Drake catching a lot of flack for having songwriters, I think a lot artists especially in hip hop would benefit from having a songwriter help them structure and write better songs, because right now we're in the era of rappers spittin' 3 verses of randomness over a catchy beat and a repetitive hook.

Too R&B...

She needed another Rhythmic record.. All Hands On Deck shoulda came out sooner..

I know why it didn't though... that cancelled Iggy tour fucked up their release schedule.. scrambled and got on Nicki Tour but the remix was with Iggy so..

Phonte has the right whimsy and singing ability to pull it off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzlWCumwz1E

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Not that his voice/singing style is at all similar, but I can see other rappers bringing him in to do hooks and guest features on their songs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IXOM4Q2Apc