So Buddy's NJS swing post (and recent Tamia interview) got me thinking...

There was a point (90s) where stuff like Jodeci, SWV etc was on par with hip hop in high schools...

Now when you mention R&B it immediately evokes Urban A/C (old niggas with sleeveless linen shirts on and a Bluetooth)

Did neo soul "grow R&B up too much"?

Did the "gospel voice/style" of singing become dated?

Or did R&B suffer from the fact that it cost too much to produce? and when Napster happened it suffered the most.

EDIT: In theory Bey, Rih, Trey, Chris and even The Weeknd are R&B and youthful but most would call the former Pop artists and The Weeknd alternative-slash-something-slash-something

When lil Jon and Jazzy Pha were producing "crunk" r&b.

Yea 03-04...

Was Usher the last one?

Did Justin Timberlake change the paradigm?

I blame Skateboard P out here singing rather than scooping up some young talent and letting them shine with a proper producer. Because of it I gotta hear my wife complain about me playing the same songs over and over again because I love R&B and the type that I like isn't being made anymore.

Hell Lloyd had some joints (Girls Around The World) but he didn't get enough love and his personality wasn't big enough. There's no record execs pulling young energetic talent. Sza is young right? I don't listen to her music though.

It costs too much...

think about what R&B requires to compete with pop now with an MUCH smaller audience..

If I write R&B songs.. I am giving them to Ariana Grande (maybe Nicki Minaj). If I give them to Kelly Rowland they simply wont scale..

Or...

Did R&B and Rap just merge together (CB, Fetty Wap, Drake) and so what we have now is a hybrid..

It's been around since JaRule and 50 did it but never got a name.
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DJTB YOMM

whatever we're gonna call it

but yeah, that's what I think happened IRT OO's OP

+

auto tune

=

half assed rapper/half assed R&B singer

R. Kelly started this wave with Ignition remix

TY$ and Tiller are just doing an updated version

Drake still makes legit R&B records ("Hold On We're Going Home")

Alot of the bigger R&B acts of the past were well in their 30s, sometimes even their 40s. Now, other than Mary and Rubert Kolly, that's not really the case.

But I don't doubt that the cost of making R&B probably does affect why more kids aren't interested in it.

The biggest "R&B" Popstar in the world is in her mid/late 30s..

I assume you mean starting out..

Question could be is she even R&B?

Probably gotta add.. youthful (and successful)

I was put on to Frank, Sza, Kelela, Nao, Tink, PND, Majid Jordan, etc. by young people so they're supporting the latest subset of R&B.

Idk if this generation will see an R&B phoenix rise like a Beyonce or Usher (shit, they won't even get an Aaliyah, Brandy/Monica in they primes lol) BUT there are still monster jams by contemp R&B artists it's just they're either songs I don't particularly care for, sung by non-Blacks, or both lol.

Oh yea.. alternative r&b is the shit.. currently

But it doesn't resemble R&B in form the same way some previous iterations did..

and

The Blue-Eyed soul version just isn't recognized as r&b at all..

could've definitely been in my Walkman as a teen. Tamar too. I think these artists do well, even w/ teens-20 somethings (is that too big a tent for young people??) but they would've fit (more?) comfortably in a 90s/early aughts era of contemporary R&B. But still, these are not grown & sexy artists either...Ok, maybe Tamar is lol but not the others.


Somewhere signals got crossed & sangin ass Black folks especially women/girls started losing (Thank God for Fantasia) but I'm starting to see SABW make a come back & young people are here for it.

Ne-Yo came out 9 years ago...

Sevyn can't get going... Keyshia is doing OK

But none of these folks break Top 40. They are not even thought about really (except Ne-Yo and his dance records) on a larger level.

Fact is today.. if a Rapper drops a singing record he/she will do much better than an R&B artist

ughk.

"Pabst BlueRibbon" R&B

aka black but not Black

a fedora grinning.

But does he have a..

A) Steve Harvey Suit on
B) Linen outfit (man capris, sleevless button up)
C) Leather Sandals
D) All The Above

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Y2YZSYmzHaw/T6oMarTK3oI/AAAAAAAAANU/KaF1--q8qZU/s1600/Old+school+playa.jpg

... and I'd sport the shit outta that myself if it was in black.


---------------------------

"Where was the peace when we were getting shot? Where's the peace when we were getting laid out?
Where is the peace when we are in the back of ambulances? Where is the peace then?
They don't want to call for peace then.

he's been on some "sixth man of music" right now, it's great

1. Gap Band Charlie
2. Fedora Charlie
3. Snoop Dogg's background singing when Nate was busy Charlie
4. Drunk uncle in Kanye's studio Charlie (Lord Lord Lord)
5. Current Charlie.

The internet changed access to and the creation of music

What I mean by that is, when you're dealing with a singer, you have to be able to
produce music in their key or in the key of the song.
When you produce for rappers, all you have to do is make a hot beat.
It takes some musical knowledge and prowess to produce for a singer in a way that
takes the overall song to the next level. For instance, let's say the singer writes a
song in the key of some beat you'd previously made. Now they wanna add a bridge
in a different key. You have to identify that new key and make music AROUND the
melody and in the key. If all you do is "make hot beats", you stuck now. If it was rap,
you could just throw in a bridge and a key wouldn't matter.
I'm saying all this from practical studio experience lol.
Ever heard one of those remixes of an R&B song where the beat isn't in the same key
as the song? Friend of mine shared some 9th Wonder remix with me of an R&B song,
and I was like 'how are you listening to this? the music's in a completely different key
than the song." Her reply? "old technical ass nigga!" lol. I can't tho. Know your music.


All that said tho, you kinda got it when you said...

>Or did R&B suffer from the fact that it cost too much to produce?
>

It suffered when "beat makers" who don't identify keys and key-changes started
producing it. Speaking of New Jack Swing, Teddy Riley knows what the fuck he's
doing on them keys. As did Babyface, Jimmy Jam, and Terry. They're all musicians though.
It really began to suffer when it stopped being produced by MUSICIANS.

Back when, older skilled musicians produced the music for the young stars. Now,for the radio "RnB", the companies match the young stars with the young hot producer, i.e. beatmaker.

I came in with actually music (guitars, bass and drums on top of drum programming) with bridges and chord changes. le's just say what I did was considered too advanced for her, so I just took an 808 played 3 chords and she went apecrap.



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Its just that simple. That shit is cool for album cuts/or the occasional single that does well if its done really well, but full on albums of all that shit in 2015? Nah, I dont even want to listen to a full album of that shit. That type of RNB is this generations Adult Contemporary

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TWITTER : Heinz21st

IG : H_N_Z

**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson


"One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're

It's like the talent of singing doesn't fit with the lack of maturity in the lyrics.
Pretty much the same reason it's funny when Ben Folds sings "Bitches Ain't Shit"
or Richard Cheese sings Snoop songs.
Shit just don't go together. Only difference is mainstream R&B cats today are serious about it.
It's literally a joke.

Singing groups are dead

Older women artists w a shred of a career memory gotta go on r&b divas 4 attention
Or wait 4 an awards show to call them to do a medley/tribute

new older artists don't exist
Half the young artists gotta know how to poplock & tootsie roll



All that's left as "adult r&b" is jamie foxx and the ghost of r kelly

john legend.. marsha.. anthony hamilton... dwele... tamia.. tamar.. keyshia cole.. K Michelle

ton of "Adult" R&B

radio formats (don't know the proper name).. because save for a few of the singers you listed above we don't consistently hear them played together. Hell, I've never heard Dwele played alongside Chris Brown, Trey Songz... unless it's the adult contemporary stations.

Johnny Gill's lead singles off his last couple of albums were heaters but never heard outside of adult contemporary.
After about a week or two they stopped playing Really Love and that never seemed to be in rotation.

So basically,like they said above the format completely changed. If the writing wasn't so over the top on some of these songs with a lack of production, they would be ok.

Nah.. the whole point was saying at a certain point in recent history..

R&B (or at least the label R&B) became old black peoples music. It is not connected to youth culture anymore like it was in before.

What is currently popular is a hybrid of rap and singing that has supplanted R&B. I mean is 'Trap Queen' a rap song? or the #1 R&B song in the country

..while many saw the merger of "hip hop and r&b" as a positive sign of modern times, I knew it wouldn't be long before one gave way to the other.

yes, there's enough room for everyone, but the tastemakers have selective hearing.

almost everyone in this world wants their time to shine on the brightest stage. unfortunately, most people can't sing. hip hop came along and leveled the playing field, making that elusive dream possible for people that couldn't carry a tune.

nowadays, r&b music is treated like a Vegas review and most kids want to be trap stars. the sad part is that it has very little to do with the actual music. it's all about the lifestyle.


*skatin' the rings of saturn*


..and miles to go before i sleep...

Could also add that Autotune made it so there was no need for "sangers" (unless you are white).

guess what?

maybe you should be making some music for that demo...you know...the ones who actually buy the records, & go to the shows & buy the merch & etc

?

too much like right perhaps

lol.. tell that to 2 Chainz, Kanye, Rick Ross, Juicy J, Jeezy, TI, Nicki Minaj, French Montana etc..

I am on Duckdown.. of course I make 30+ rap music.. lol

This post was just a open question response to the new jack swing post...

Like, maybe it's regional but from my Northeast & Southeast cousins + they friends...they fuckin w/ R&B & no it doesn't sound like SWV or Donnell Jones but and?? so??

time.

and this was a year where Young Thug and Fetty Wap released records, lol

You right about the trap wave tho, who would've imagined that?

I'm kinda interested in him fusing his sound w/ the drill movement going on in Chicago, like is anyone even doing that??

AND A HIT DJ MUSTARD SONG A YEAR AGO WHEN THE ALBUM WAS FIRST FINISHED, lol.

Dude must have fucked a Def Jam VP's wife. All they had to do was hit the 'upload to itunes' button.

That said, I am quite surprised at the record. I thought it was gonna be less weird then it actually is (cause of how big "Dont Tell Em" was) but even some straight forward shit like the Migos track is bizarre as fuck. Would have been bonkers if the thing got released in the summer.

>
>Dude must have fucked a Def Jam VP's wife. All they had to do
>was hit the 'upload to itunes' button.
>

i remember reading an article on Complex about that a while ago. thats why he aint as big as he should be.

i think it just became corny more than anything

but, its a new crop of cats thats doin it and they cussin in their song.
if my r n b isnt riddled wit profanity it aint for me...im cool wit my conditioning.

The transition from 70's into 80's, and then 80's into 90's R&B was as jarring as the current transition into alt R&B. We may not want to claim it, but it's r&b through and through.

As far as more traditional rhythm and blues songs there are more the then a few soul revival acts eating paper, indie rock songwriters mining it for critical acclaim, etc.


I remember watching Sza a couple of years ago at SXSW and saw the crowd FIENDING for her and I had the same idea you did. I mean there’s a legion of Aaliyah clones out there which means there is a direct linage to prime 80’s Janet R&B. I just don’t think we easily see it

Are the old heads going to check for it? Probably not. Youngins will though.



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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

i been having a hard time wit this one

Pop R&B, but R&B nonetheless

Its sonically R&B.. especially since Pooh Bear wrote the majority of it... but its classified as anything BUT R&B..

Pop

Tropical House

EDM

Smith is soul music & the next Luther...LoL, I am so tired.

distinctions?


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"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Technical distinctions... R&B is a technical distinction made up to not be as offensive as "race records"

If it goes straight to Pop radio... wont be nominated for any other genre but Pop (awards shows) and was produced by all white folks then....

What is it?

I can say Snakehips is just a re-imagining of Premo & Pete Rock but they are labeled and viewed as EDM because of who makes it..

White folks can make R&B. Black people can make music that isn't R&B.

Pop isn't so much a genre as it is a designation. Pop Music = Popular Music and that changes over time. There is Pop Rap, POp R&B and Pock Rock etc.

if a record sounds like R&B, it's R&B.


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

It actually does..

From wiki ". The term was originally used by record companies to describe recordings marketed predominantly to urban African Americans, at a time when "urbane, rocking, jazz based music with a heavy, insistent beat" was becoming more popular."

It has evolved sonically and other people are involved but R&b is a technical term for a genre made up by a journalist to replace "black music" or "race music".. So it matters whose involved

does really help because it by the definition you listed it describes R&B as term for who the music is marketed "TO" not who the creators are and 3.) the origins of a term determine define a term. You've described where the name comes from but you didn't describe what it means.


It's just silly to say that you can listen to a Jon B album. Think it's an R&B album, and then decide it's not when you find out the singer is white.

Also, for example how many black people do you need on an album to make it R&B? Justin Bieber had some black songwriters. That's not enough? Is it the one drop rule for R&B or does it have to be more than 50% created by Af-Ams? What if a Bi-racial person makes the record? Come on man.



>It actually does..
>
>From wiki ". The term was originally used by record
>companies to describe recordings marketed predominantly to
>urban African Americans, at a time when "urbane, rocking, jazz
>based music with a heavy, insistent beat" was becoming more
>popular."
>
>It has evolved sonically and other people are involved but R&b
>is a technical term for a genre made up by a journalist to
>replace "black music" or "race music".. So it matters whose
>involved


**********
"Everyone has a plan until you punch them in the face. Then they don't have a plan anymore." (c) Mike Tyson

"what's a leader if he isn't reluctant"

Bryson Tiller is out here killin em.. as is Ty$ and Jeremih..

but again look at what i still viewed as "R&B"

Grammy Noms

Best R&B Album

Coming Home, Leon Bridges
Black Messiah, D’Angelo and the Vanguard
Cheers to the Fall, Andra Day
Reality Show, Jazmine Sullivan
Forever Charlie, Charlie Wilson

Versus

Best Urban Contemporary Album
The Internet, Ego Death
Kehlani, You Should Be Here
Lianne La Havas, Blood
Miguel, Wildheart
The Weeknd, Beauty Behind the Madness

I got nothing else to offer this post but had to shout out my hometown

as of lately it seems more youthful.

I'm jamming to some good music and all a sudden she sings "I know you wanna fuuuck" or "this shiiit is getting crazy, oh baby"

ruining perfectly good songs...

can't play hardly anything with the kiddies in the car so I'm forced to listen to the radio when they with me



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I'll find some rare shit or PROMO will spotify some new heat and it's a little white girl or some white dude saying shit or fuck for no reason at all...

was the OG to this "trap soul" but never got his props: https://soundcloud.com/kenyondixonmusic/kenyon-dixon-got-me-somebody

then Shlohmo took that blueprint and aligned Jeremih and Torey Lanez to eat off it which led to this new crop Bryson Tiller & them.

TBH

Rochelle Jordan is the whole sound... The Weeknd & Jeremih already existed when Kenyon was out

From what I know, R&B was always a music for the Youth before Rap came in the 80's...even though it's probably always been artists more aimed at kids vs the adults.

Once Rap came in, the NJS type R&B came to appeal to the kids, while the older "AC" artists were aimed towards adults.

Once NJS died in 92-93, there was an entire wave of R&B that came in, which was strongly Rap influenced, and this appealed to the youth.

By the late 90's, this same style R&B was still dominant with the youth. Neo Soul came in strong around 99-2000, and with that, the 14-21 crowd wasn't all the way engaged with it, but they were moderate fans. That age group was still more into the R&B that came from Monica, Brandy, Usher, Destiny's Child, and even those who straddled the Neo Soul line like Donell Jones.

By 2005....things were starting to switch up. A lot of R&B party songs had much more Rap production, meaning not even the hybrid type beats like a Mariah "Fantasy" or "This is how we do it" which were still pretty Rap based....but we got the Lil Jon type tracks like Brooke Valentine "Girlfight" which was essentially just "Blow the whistle"...or a Cherish "Do it"...or Ciara "Oh" and "Goodies."

I feel like the last time we really got true R&B songs that got major love from the Youth and Mainstream were 2011...with tracks like "Adorn" and "Love on top" but even those were scarce.

And I look back to 2009, and realize that Drake has had a HUGE huge impact, to the point that even he's the reason that the Youth no longer goes for what's traditionally seen as R&B. He actually filled that void...young teenage girls will always love music that speaks to them, but they don't demand the traditional elements that us music heads enjoy. Damn near all the commercial R&B I hear now has some Drake in it.

Bryson Tiller "Don't" - Tory Lanez "Say it" - both songs are strongly Drake influenced...and I thought it was hilarisad that Tory had never heard of Brownstone or "If you love me." Eric Bellinger still can't succeed for anything, but a lot of his music is Drake influenced as well.

808s and then Drake rewrote what R&B is..

Ehhh I dont agree....

No one is actually writing better songs than drake... and 808s has some of the best pop songwriting in a while...

The problem is the same it always is.. the duplicate is never as good as the original..

There are a lot of minimal beats biting the Neptunes.. but there is only 1 Grindin

song-writing bonafides...808s R&B/pop-synth fusion is hella derivative (being kind here b/c I really like Ye + 808s & don't wanna call him a biter not a writer for himself & others) of T pain's 1st shit...808s is essentially a new Black retelling of Sanga tbh lol.

Drake's music surely is watered down compared to R&B from previous decades, but the songwriting tends to always be strong.

It wasn't an issue/problem when I first heard his music, or even if he was the only one doing it in that form. But a lot of the imitators don't seem to add enough layers to that sound to make it evolve to where I can really dig it.

could fly lol.

I think maybe the funk/jazz influence on contemp R&B was a thing in the 90s/early aughts too?? I'm hearing it in some 2015 R&B too which is cool.

Btw, great point about girls (& when I say girls, I'm talking about American Black girls) mainly being the ones that fucked w/ R&B in junior & high school.

The Jazz influence kinda fused in with Neo Soul in that 99-02 era. Some of that does seem to be alive in small circles, on the Eric Roberson/Zo/King side of things.

>could fly lol.
>
>I think maybe the funk/jazz influence on contemp R&B was a
>thing in the 90s/early aughts too?? I'm hearing it in some
>2015 R&B too which is cool.
>
>Btw, great point about girls (& when I say girls, I'm talking
>about American Black girls) mainly being the ones that fucked
>w/ R&B in junior & high school.
>
>
>
>

There's a ton of them in Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi and they all seem to know each other. And from what I can tell from certain Gospel boards, they're well-trained musicians.

I'm still thinking this through, but I'm wondering if alot of the talent and energy that previously went into R&B is now strictly focused on the Gospel market.

Its possible.. but they were probably forced there since the type of music they make isn't in vogue in contemporary music

and the next young innocent wanna be MJ. because your young MJ's have edge to them and lack that boyish charm

R&B always had edge and drive, however these acts been pushed to be grown
and yet put out dumped down material to appeal more edgy.

that shy Michael Jackson choir boy era is over. though still getting Broke MJ's will never die.